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Pledge of Allegiance


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LOL! It wasn't a dig at you or your religion, Scarlett - I support anybody's right to say whatever political speech they want or don't want... or to NOT say it, for whatever reason, even if it's obvs not a reason I share.

But if the SCOTUS had ruled wrongly I'd blame them for their stupid decision, so it makes sense to credit them for the right one.

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1 minute ago, pinball said:

Or maybe I kept reading posts for the next couple hours and saw that no one cared about the teacher suggesting to pledge to another flag and lying to the students.

but you go on with the mind reading. 

No one watched the TikTok. So no one knows what you are taking about.  I would not pledge to any flag, so there is that.

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It’s common in our area, as are all forms of performative patriotism. I let my kids make their own choices but I have explained my view and let them decide. DH is neutral on the issue. He sees ‘the pledge’ as a formality/professional rule/expectation vs. a personal oath like his commissioning oath.

Edited by Sneezyone
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1 minute ago, Tanaqui said:

LOL! It wasn't a dig at you or your religion, Scarlett - I support anybody's right to say whatever political speech they want or don't want... or to NOT say it, for whatever reason, even if it's obvs not a reason I share.

But if the SCOTUS had ruled wrongly I'd blame them for their stupid decision, so it makes sense to credit them for the right one.

Ok.  Good enough. 🙂

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Just now, Scarlett said:

No one watched the TikTok. So no one knows what you are taking about.  I would not pledge to any flag, so there is that.

Our school said the pledge growing up. I thought it was a thing of the past, but when I started at my current school a few years ago, I was surprised to see that we say it every day. It's easier to not say it while wearing a mask - one bonus - I don't stand out with not pledging to a flag.

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

No one watched the TikTok. So no one knows what you are taking about.  I would not pledge to any flag, so there is that.

 

4 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I saw the tiktok from the teacher in California about the Pledge. 

Is it still common to recite the pledge in school? DD says it every morning but it's Catholic school. 

People are freaking about this on Twitter but I don't care. Frankly, I think that reciting allegiance to a flag is a bit creepy. I know the history of how "under God" was added in the 1950s and when it was first recited, kids did the Nazi salute instead of placing their hand over their heart. 

I know this became a thing in the last few decades and now adults recite the Pledge which I think is really weird. I think of it as a school thing. 

ETA that there was no American flag in Dd's classroom in Montessori school. 

 

3 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I'm just not impressed with the teacher & her giggling & "uncomfortable" reaction to one flag during covid but not another one?

It looks like OS and RootAnn watched the TikTok…their posts are why I watched the TikTok…

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I watched it...between this thread and the 'are you the same', I really need to ease off on time spent here. 

A very immature teacher. It's not ok for teachers to mock/make fun of students on social media. The quip about the LBGTIQA+ flag wasn't as funny as she thinks it is. 

I'm in favour of removing ALL flags from the classroom. 

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Reading through all the responses here it occurred to me that some kids are pledging to the flag multiple times a day, several times a week, and now I think it’s really creepy.  If a kid says it daily at school, then also at Awana, BoyScouts and soccer, thats 3 days a week it’s being said twice daily.  That seems excessive.  I doubt soldiers are war day the pledge 8+ times a week

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This is surprising to me. I'm typically the only one in any group not saying the pledge for essentially the same reasons Mercy mentioned.

I don't think it is creepy until you start getting 3-5 year olds to repeat it. By the time they know what it means they feel they owe it to the gov't. I did recite it when a child but figure nothing counts if you can't possibly know what it means yet.

My children just stand quietly in social situations where they've been asked to recite it. Only once did they get push back but it was from someone their own age. They were to direct any adult that had a problem with it to me but they said it was never an issue except for one particular boy. He thought it was disrespectful and physically tried to lift my son's hand to his heart. He was frustrated with my son's lack of cooperation and didn't understand but he was still friends with my boys later. They were 10 or 12 at the time.

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Just take flags, pledges etc out of the classroom. If individual students want to pledge to whatever, they could do that in a moment of quiet reflection at the beginning of class. Others could pray, some might like to reflect on their goals for the day.

The bigger problem here is a teacher who doesn't understand professional boundaries. This is the type of story you might tell another teacher in private, in a 'funny moment today's way. In private, in an empty classroom or in the staffroom. You contain it, if you must tell it. 

Social media is not your staffroom. This is unprofessional behaviour. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Just take flags, pledges etc out of the classroom. If individual students want to pledge to whatever, they could do that in a moment of quiet reflection at the beginning of class. Others could pray, some might like to reflect on their goals for the day.

The bigger problem here is a teacher who doesn't understand professional boundaries. This is the type of story you might tell another teacher in private, in a 'funny moment today's way. In private, in an empty classroom or in the staffroom. You contain it, if you must tell it. 

Social media is not your staffroom. This is unprofessional behaviour. 

 

 

The tiktok was cringe-y which was I didn't ask specifically about the video. People need to learn to behave on social media and it's always sad when someone does something stupid, records it, and uploads it for the world to see. 

I was only curious about whether kids still recited the Pledge in school anymore. 

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As a music teacher, I always walked a line between teaching songs that are part of American historical tradition, and actively teaching patriotism. I really liked these collections https://nafme.org/get-america-singing-again/, and did both books in K-6th grade, with selected songs per year, because it let us have a few songs per grading period, but didn’t give “The Battle Hymn if the Republic” more weight than “Amazing Grace” or “Havah Nagilah”. 
 

I largely dodged the Pledge of Allegiance bullet by not having a home room. In an urban school, with a range of backgrounds and experiences, especially when you get up to the tweens/teens, there will be some kids with strong opinions, and it can really be a tough line to walk. My lived experience as a White woman was very different from a Black COGIC, and even more so from a recently immigrated  from the Sudan Moslem. 

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I think the pledge is an outdated custom that most kids treated more as a rote recitation than an actual oath.  It would feel overly dramatic for me to call it creepy.  The teacher was silly and probably needs a mentor to explain professionalism to her, but I don't like that there will be the obligatory band of outraged parents calling for her dismissal.  It's not like there are hoards of qualified professionals lined up to take her place.  It's not so much dangerous as embarrassing.  I doubt her antics will age well in her own mind.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think the pledge is an outdated custom that most kids treated more as a rote recitation than an actual oath.  It would feel overly dramatic for me to call it creepy.  The teacher was silly and probably needs a mentor to explain professionalism to her, but I don't like that there will be the obligatory band of outraged parents calling for her dismissal.  It's not like there are hoards of qualified professionals lined up to take her place.  It's not so much dangerous as embarrassing.  I doubt her antics will age well in her own mind.

Decided to edit my response. I only asked about the Pledge so I'm not going to discuss the other part. 

 

Edited by Ordinary Shoes
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Another vote for outdated and super weird. It's creepy because it encourages blind allegiance. 

It makes me sad that the flag makes people like that teacher uncomfortable, but I think that's a natural effect of being told over and over by a particular political side that they own the flag and that others aren't worthy of it. It starts to become a symbol of one party and not the other. Obviously that's a massive over-simplification, both parties use the flag at various points, and both parties practice a lot of divisive politics and tactics.

I think the whole idea of pledging allegiance to the Inclusive Pride flag is just funny. I took that bit as a joke.

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I don’t consider my allegiance to my country a conflict with my allegiance to Christ. They are simply in a hierarchy. Jesus is King. Nor do I consider the pledge a call to blind obedience to all governmental claims or directions.

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The schools my dc attended until high school graduation all recited the pledge daily. My dc stopped standing and participating in high school. They asked Dh, a veteran, if it would offend him and he assured them it did not. I struggle with it as an adult and find most forms of US patriotism today uncomfortable. 

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12 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I get the point about blind allegiance, I just don't know a single person who became blindly allegiant to the flag because they said the pledge in 5th grade.  

I know a lot of people who seem obsessively allegiant to the flag and I don't doubt that the pledge was at least a small part of that indoctrination. 

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I have no problems with the idea of pledging allegiance, as an adult, to my country. 

Children...it seems weird. 

But more than that, doing it DAILY is just bizarre. I thought so as a kid. I stopped saying it in middle school. I remember thinking, "what, are you worried I became a traitor overnight? I pledge YESTERDAY - surely a pledge should imply lasting allegiance! At least more than 24 hours worth!"

Creepy indoctrination. At assembies or something a few times a year, fine. Daily? Creepy. 

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I don't remember doing it daily when I was in elementary school, mostly just at school assemblies.  But of course that was years ago, so my memory might be a bit faulty.  I had a few teachers in middle and high school that did, but most did not.  I have no idea if teachers do now.  My kids in scouting did the pledge before most events along with the Scout Oath and Law.  They also did flag raising/lowering ceremonies daily in camp.

I have never seen it as a conflict with my beliefs, but I feel others should go with their conscience.  To me it is a bit of a food sacrificed to idols situation for Christians.  God will always be first in my duties and loyalty, but that doesn't mean I can't feel some loyalty to my country.  While I know that our country is not perfect, I would like to see the ideals of "liberty and justice for all" be something that our country continues to strive to become for everyone.

The one I feel a bit conflicted about is the pledge to the Christian flag and the Bible that we did at VBS ever year.  It just seemed odd and a bit idolistic.

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We pledged allegiance every day during school from 1st grade through high school graduation. I thought every school did that. I see why people think it's creepy but it personally doesn't bother me. Other countries also have similar customs, usually singing the national anthem. I lived next to a school in Caracas and Iistened to Gloria Al Bravo Pueblo so.many.times. 

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Just asked my 14yo, and yes, they say the pledge daily in their public high school.

I don't think it indoctrinates anyone, because I don't think most kids really think about what they are saying for the two thousandth time.

When I was in 8th grade, our history teacher told everyone to write down the pledge (the one we'd said every day for 8 years) from memory.  The vast majority of 8th graders couldn't do it.  Personally, I had thought about it before that and knew and understood what it was saying, but most kids just don't.  Maybe they talk about it once or twice throughout elementary school (though I don't remember ever doing so at school).

So no, I don't think it's creepy or dangerous, but I don't think it's a particularly helpful activity either.  Maybe it was good for morale during the world wars?

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3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I stand as to be as respectful as possible. It doesn’t always work…..I remember once in Branson a man behind my family was very aggressive about us not reciting he pledge….oh and once during my sons high school graduation a man behind us demanded we salute the flag or whatever.  He was pretty angry. We stayed respectful and the moment passed.  

Super weird. Civilians don't have to salute the flag. 

I spent 4 years in the USAF and have very strong feelings about the oath I took when I enlisted, but I think it's weird we have kids say the pledge every day. 

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8 hours ago, SKL said:

I don't understand the aversion to having the US flag in US classrooms.  I would think classrooms around the world have their country's flag in them.  I mean what country you're in is a fact, not a political or religious or __phobic statemen

According to People On The Internet, Americans are odd for having flags all over the place, including classrooms. It is factual that other countries have flags even when they don’t wave ‘em around their lives like giant foam fingers. 😉 

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4 hours ago, SKL said:

Just asked my 14yo, and yes, they say the pledge daily in their public high school.

I don't think it indoctrinates anyone, because I don't think most kids really think about what they are saying for the two thousandth time.

When I was in 8th grade, our history teacher told everyone to write down the pledge (the one we'd said every day for 8 years) from memory.  The vast majority of 8th graders couldn't do it.  Personally, I had thought about it before that and knew and understood what it was saying, but most kids just don't.  Maybe they talk about it once or twice throughout elementary school (though I don't remember ever doing so at school).

So no, I don't think it's creepy or dangerous, but I don't think it's a particularly helpful activity either.  Maybe it was good for morale during the world wars?

I don’t think indoctrination is quite the right word to fit my feelings. Maybe a vague hint of that. When it comes SPECIFICALLY to young kids, my “weird/creepy” meter does go off though. Because what is our purpose there? It does not take 12 years x 180 days to learn. It doesn’t even take 1 year of daily practice, unless we’re talking about the developmentally appropriate differences in in 7yos’ pronunciations of ‘indivisible’, which is silly. So WHY do we want 7yos pledging their allegiance, which they aren’t even capable of really giving, on the daily? What does little kids chanting near-gibberish (to them) each day accomplish?

It does reek of indoctrination, even though I can’t bring myself to believe that that’s the goal of the people who lead these chants.

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There were 79 replies when I began to write this. I am very old, born and raised in a predominately "Blue" state. An extremely "Liberal" state. In the Public schools I attended I believe we recited the Pledge every day, Elementary school through high school. That was in the Postwar (WW2 and Korea) era and during the "Cold War" with the former Soviet Union.

I don't see this as a "red" vs "blue" issue and my guess is about 50% of the 13 men and women in these flag draped coffins voted "Blue" and the others voted "Red".  I see the Pledge and other things as patriotic, but I am aware that many people don't agree with that and I respect everyone's right to their own beliefs. I hope that those who disagree with me will respect my right to believe what I do.

Flag draped coffins of 13 U.S. military members in C-17. August 2021

Edited by Lanny
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I think some of it falls under “things adults can make kids do because they can.”  It’s normalized for kids to say it daily at school, but why not at home before school, or in the work place?  Because adults don’t wanna.  
 

 

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We've always said the pledge here in public schools, and they still do.  Every day and before any type of assembly or sporting event.  I've never exactly seen it as a shining example of patriotism as it was marketed by a man who owned a flag company and wanted to sell his flags to schools. He pulled strings to have legislation created in its favor.  It is more of an oath to capitalism.

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9 hours ago, MercyA said:

I know a lot of people who seem obsessively allegiant to the flag and I don't doubt that the pledge was at least a small part of that indoctrination. 

Yes. I see it a lot.  And wartime whips people up into a frenzy and for some of them seeing a lack of patriotism enrages them.  It can be dangerous for those who are not patriotic.

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8 hours ago, Loowit said:

The one I feel a bit conflicted about is the pledge to the Christian flag and the Bible that we did at VBS ever year.  It just seemed odd and a bit idolistic.

Oh heck yes.  We went to a homeschool co-op that did that, and I found those honestly heretical and idolotrist.  Bibliolotry.  

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41 minutes ago, Lanny said:

There were 79 replies when I began to write this. I am very old, born and raised in a predominately "Blue" state. An extremely "Liberal" state. In the Public schools I attended I believe we recited the Pledge every day, Elementary school through high school. That was in the Postwar (WW2 and Korea) era and during the "Cold War" with the former Soviet Union.

I don't see this as a "red" vs "blue" issue and my guess is about 50% of the 13 men and women in these flag draped coffins voted "Blue" and the others voted "Red".  I see the Pledge and other things as patriotic, but I am aware that many people don't agree with that and I respect everyone's right to their own beliefs. I hope that those who disagree with me will respect my right to believe what I do.

Flag draped coffins of 13 U.S. military members in C-17. August 2021

This reply makes me really uneasy because it seems as though it is using the death of these service members as justification for a mindless recitation in the morning.  It is introducing a red herring into the conversation and seems to be an abuse of their memory.

FWIW, they took an oath of enlistment, and that has nothing to do with the pledge that children recite. Nor does political leanings.

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I suspect the reason that it got normalized is that, back a long time ago, some teacher discovered that having a regular ritual settled the class down. Honestly, from what I remember from my school days, it was more "let's get set for the day", just like circle/planning time when I taught Head Start always started with the calendar and weather, or church starting with a call to worship. 

 

But the difference is, doing calendar and weather doesn't ask anyone to pledge allegiance to a flag that is not their own, which is the case for non-US citizens attending a public school, or defy their religious beliefs before they are really old enough to be able to verbalize them (something which bothered me, because usually about 4th/5th grade, my JW students would be able to be clear about which things they could and could not participate in. Before that point, it was honestly up to me to make the judgement call, and remember which classes had JW kids in them and adapt accordingly). 

 

I do feel it is important for kids to be aware of it, but I kind of feel that can be handled by studying it in a history class where it is appropriate, just as we study the Star Spangled Banner in music class,not recited daily for 13 years of public education. And I will also say that reading the lyrics (for all verses) and discussing them has never failed to have a few kids decide that maybe this isn't something they feel comfortable standing for and saluting-and this was decades before Colin Kapernick. 

 

It is also an interesting exercise, particularly for tweens/teens, to compare pledges and anthems from different countries. This was something I did while homeschooling because I feel it's important contextually. Honestly, the US is about as jingoistic as it gets. 

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3 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

This reply makes me really uneasy because it seems as though it is using the death of these service members as justification for a mindless recitation in the morning.  It is introducing a red herring into the conversation and seems to be an abuse of their memory.

FWIW, they took an oath of enlistment, and that has nothing to do with the pledge that children recite. Nor does political leanings.

I am sorry if there was an abuse of my memory.  Not intended to be a Red Herring.  Possibly because I am older I have different thoughts about the  Pledge and other things than you do. I respect your opinions and those of other people. I also remember for example, in Elementary School, during Nuclear Attack drills going under the desks to hide, as if that were possible. That was in the days of above-ground Nuclear tests.

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10 hours ago, HeartString said:

Reading through all the responses here it occurred to me that some kids are pledging to the flag multiple times a day, several times a week, and now I think it’s really creepy.  If a kid says it daily at school, then also at Awana, BoyScouts and soccer, thats 3 days a week it’s being said twice daily.  That seems excessive.  I doubt soldiers are war day the pledge 8+ times a week

Military in uniform don't ever say the pledge. If in attendance at an indoor function where the pledge is included they stand at silent attention facing the flag; if outdoors they stand at silent attention and render a hand salute to the flag.

Out of uniform military members have the same options as other citizens.

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8 hours ago, chiguirre said:

We pledged allegiance every day during school from 1st grade through high school graduation. I thought every school did that. I see why people think it's creepy but it personally doesn't bother me. Other countries also have similar customs, usually singing the national anthem. I lived next to a school in Caracas and Iistened to Gloria Al Bravo Pueblo so.many.times. 

I actually have no problem with singing an anthem or patriotic song daily. That is celebrating your country, not swearing an allegiance to it. It makes sense to sing a song frequently - we all sing all sorts of songs just cause we like them. 

but it is WEIRD to think that I swore allegiance to my country and its flag yesterday, and today you don't trust that I am still a patriotic citizen and want me to do it again. 

 

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12 hours ago, SKL said:

 

I don't understand the aversion to having the US flag in US classrooms.  I would think classrooms around the world have their country's flag in them.  I mean what country you're in is a fact, not a political or religious or __phobic statement.

None of the countries I lived and went to school in growing up had flags in every classroom. Usually not even a flag outside the school. In one country in Latin America we did sing the national anthem sometimes at assemblies, never anywhere else.

I've never seen national flags on display in any other country as much as in the US.

I like flags and anthems and think a sense of patriotism can be healthy; humans have a genuine need for group identity and one's nation isn't a bad thing to identify with and feel pride in.

Like anything we humans do, it can be taken too far. 

For most people I think saying the pledge in school is entirely harmless. I also think it isn't particularly valuable, but it is a ritual and we humans tend to thrive on traditions and rituals.

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42 minutes ago, Library Momma said:

We've always said the pledge here in public schools, and they still do.  Every day and before any type of assembly or sporting event.  I've never exactly seen it as a shining example of patriotism as it was marketed by a man who owned a flag company and wanted to sell his flags to schools. He pulled strings to have legislation created in its favor.  It is more of an oath to capitalism.

Now THAT is interesting!

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3 minutes ago, maize said:

None of the countries I lived and went to school in growing up had flags in every classroom. Usually not even a flag outside the school. In one country in Latin America we did sing the national anthem sometimes at assemblies, never anywhere else.

I've never seen national flags on display in any other country as much as in the US.

I like flags and anthems and think a sense of patriotism can be healthy; humans have a genuine need for group identity and one's nation isn't a bad thing to identify with and feel pride in.

Like anything we humans do, it can be taken too far. 

For most people I think saying the pledge in school is entirely harmless. I also think it isn't particularly valuable, but it is a ritual and we humans tend to thrive on traditions and rituals.

That has been our experience outside the US too.  There was a weekly patriotic assembly at our school in Mexico that was quite a production, but everywhere else we’ve been, overt shows of patriotism are either frowned on or just not something anything thinks of doing.  I see more flags in a few weeks in the US than I do in six months in some places.  And the flags in the US are so big!  Pretty much no one else does massive flags like the US.  And certainly not in front of grocery stores.

Military displays and parades as patriotic events are much more common outside the US though.  I’d rather have massive flags over military parades.

 

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15 minutes ago, Amira said:

 

Military displays and parades as patriotic events are much more common outside the US though.  I’d rather have massive flags over military parades.

 

Yes!

We went to see a Bastille day parade in Paris and it was all military--tanks and missiles and marching soldiers.

Nothing in common with our 4th of July parades.

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43 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I actually have no problem with singing an anthem or patriotic song daily. That is celebrating your country, not swearing an allegiance to it. It makes sense to sing a song frequently - we all sing all sorts of songs just cause we like them. 

but it is WEIRD to think that I swore allegiance to my country and its flag yesterday, and today you don't trust that I am still a patriotic citizen and want me to do it again. 

 

I suspect the reason why this never really caught on is that the US anthem is such a pain to sing. The Pledge can be mumbled through more easily, albeit with limited comprehension.

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16 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I suspect the reason why this never really caught on is that the US anthem is such a pain to sing. The Pledge can be mumbled through more easily, albeit with limited comprehension.

That's true. We rotated patriotic songs in school, so not just the anthem. 

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I have mixed feelings about the pledge.  I grew up saying it every day in school, 1960's and 1970's.  I can kind of see why it felt more important then -- post WWII.  My dad is a WW2 vet and we -- like every other family I knew -- definitely felt a sense of patriotism.  Of course as kids, the pledge was mostly just a school ritual to start our day, but it still meant something because many of us had dads who had fought in WWII or knew people who had fought in other wars.  

In school, we always followed it with a patriotic song like My Country Tis of Thee, America the Beautiful, or sometimes our state song:  I Love You, California.  🙂    But, it does seem a little weird now that we said it every single day!  Seems kind of funny to me.  I suppose it mostly just made the start of the school day seem official.

Now, I feel less comfortable with patriotism, especially as the church and weird politics have wrapped themselves around it.  Patriotism seems to have a kind of toxic feel to it now, and I'm less comfortable with the pledge.  (Although, I've never actually seen it recited anywhere except in classrooms and maybe at a government-sponsored meeting?  But barely ever outside of school.)

I think the pledge, on its own, is pretty harmless.  I don't take the words to mean I pledge my entire life to my country above everything else including God.  I take it as a simple pledge to be a good citizen of my country, nothing more.  

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1 hour ago, Amira said:

And the flags in the US are so big!  Pretty much no one else does massive flags like the US.  And certainly not in front of grocery stores.

Funny you should comment on the size of a flag. I live in Canada, and the largest Canadian flag I've ever seen is in front of WalMart. Perhaps the company assumes that Canadians appreciate a really big flag. It does really stand out because most Canadians do not fly the flag other than around Canada Day (July 1st). 

The only activity where I recited an oath was at Taekwon-Do training. We would recite the student oath and the 5 tenets of Taekwon-Do. I had no problem saying these. They are not political or religious, just a way to reinforce positive behaviour. Seemed useful, especially since a lot of kids are attracted to the punching and fighting aspects of martials arts, and yet when you actually start the training the first thing you learn is to not misuse the combat skills and instead focus on building a more peaceful world

image.jpeg.cdfd4462eaf864a9eda40ad2ce468426.jpeg

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17 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Still common.  In our Texas schools they added the Texas Pledge as well.

Ds refused on the grounds that

1. He doesn't need to reaffirm his loyalty daily

2. He was under 18 so it wasn't a binding oath

3. He wasn't a Texas citizen and owed no allegiance, ever, to that state.

This is nothing to do with the pledge discussion, just curiosity.  🙂  You live in Texas but your ds isn't a citizen of Texas?  Do you mean resident?  Isn't anyone who lives in Texas automatically a resident of Texas after a certain amount of time?   Never heard of the Texas Pledge though!  

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2 hours ago, Lanny said:

I am sorry if there was an abuse of my memory.  Not intended to be a Red Herring.  Possibly because I am older I have different thoughts about the  Pledge and other things than you do. I respect your opinions and those of other people. I also remember for example, in Elementary School, during Nuclear Attack drills going under the desks to hide, as if that were possible. That was in the days of above-ground Nuclear tests.

Although age might be part of it, it's not all age. I too am old. We did duck and cover drills in school, we watched John Glenn go into space, and were given sugar cubes containing the polio vaccine. I used to think saying the pledge daily was a good and necessary thing. Then my opinion changed and I thought it was a harmless ritual. As the political climate changed in this country and certain groups were accused of being unpatriotic by other groups my thoughts on having children recite this meaningless (to them) pledge every school day is that it's just weird. 

As for the "under God" part, I won't say it. I think if the pledge is kept that should be taken out. You and I probably started school not long after that was added. The history of the pledge itself is rather odd and the wording was changed over time. "Under God" should never have been added. It's only there because of the red scare over godless communists.

@Scarlett I had a JW student when I was teaching. He would stand though I made sure he knew he didn't have to. My other students started harassing him for not saying it so we had to have a class discussion on religious freedom and differences. These were developmentally disabled students so we also had to have a few refresher lessons but they took it well. 

Edited by Lady Florida.
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