Help me solve math for this fidgety kid!

[Aspasia]

My 9yo dd is just really different from my other kids in pretty much every way, including the way she learns. For my others, I use Horizons Math for K-3 and then switch to Math Mammoth and it has worked beautifully for them. My youngest seems to function very similarly to my older two, so I’ll probably stick with that plan for her as well. But man, my #3….She is super bright and picks up concepts quickly, but she is VERY squirrelly and generally just doesn’t enjoy “doing school.” She tends to fly under the radar most days, which means she will do a few problems while I’m sitting right next to her, completely focused on her. But if I start working with another kid or get up to rotate the laundry or anything else, she turns off completely and spaces out. When I come back to her, she literally hasn’t made one single mark on her paper since the last time I was next to her. This results in getting relatively little work actually done. I’ve tried reducing the number of problems i require (because she doesn’t seem to need much practice in order to retain). I’ve tried having her sit right next to me or next to my husband while he works, to help her stay on task. None of it is sufficient.

I’m finally realizing that I probably need to change the way I approach instruction with this kid. Horizons hasn’t been a hit, but thankfully the concepts in these early grades are pretty simple and for the most part, she has them down. She most certainly will not thrive with Math Mammoth. So what is a good math program for a bright, fidgety kid who doesn’t really love “school”? I’ve never used Math-U-See, but I’m wondering if that might be a good fit. Also considering Life of Fred. Anything else?

[EKS]

40 minutes ago, Aspasia said:

She tends to fly under the radar most days, which means she will do a few problems while I’m sitting right next to her, completely focused on her. But if I start working with another kid or get up to rotate the laundry or anything else, she turns off completely and spaces out. When I come back to her, she literally hasn’t made one single mark on her paper since the last time I was next to her. This results in getting relatively little work actually done.

I would make math time with her a conversation with you.  There's plenty of time for her to do math problems alone--it doesn't need to start when she's 9.

Regarding what program to use--anything that supports that conversation would be good.  We found Singapore and Math U See to be good for this.  I would not use Life of Fred for anything other than as a fun bedtime story (and probably not even that).

Edited August 20, 2021 by EKS

[HomeAgain]

So, ds is 11 and this is the first year he's using an actual workbook in a long time.  The past few years have been with Gattegno math: very oral, hands on, and little writing (I wrote a workbook for it last year.  It was about 45 pages for the full year, and six of those were Eratosthenes' Sieve).  Math was a conversation every day, and review/supplement was Prodigy. 
It's a strange program, but you might look at some of the earmarks of it and look for something different.  Even something like CSMP, where it's quirky enough to be intriguing.

[Janeway]

My kids who have been like this always ended up back at Singapore Math. If you switch to that, then make sure you back up and use the placement tests.

[Not_a_Number]

Does she like puzzles or anything like that? 

[ktgrok]

So, in ideas from a NOT a math person person - 

The Good and The Beautiful is more hands on, more active vs worksheet, but will take more time from you. 

Teaching Textbooks makes little noises at them if they just sit there doing nothing too long, to get their attention. That really helped and worked well with my VERY ADHD kid as well as my not ADHD and my moderately ADHD kids. Also, during the "lecture" part it asks questions as it goes, so they can't zone out too long. And the problems for the day, other than the first few which are on the new topic, are a mix of things they have already learned, so they don't get bogged down in one kind of problem for too long and get bored. 

[Lori D.]

I doubt that changing Math programs will fix the problem, if the student is "getting" the math with Math Mammoth, and the root problem is that it's an issue of needing to fidget to concentrate...

General ideas for a child who needs to "fidget" to focus:
- stand at a counter or "standing desk" so she can move and jig about while doing math
- sit on a yoga ball and work at a coffee table or shorter desk (again, which allows for body movement/fidgeting while focusing)
- sit at a regular desk/table with a foot fidget (looks like a big rubber band)
- if tactile and needing to "chew" or "feel" something to stay focused, then have a small basket of "chewy" fidgets and "hand" fidgets available
- metronome work helps some students learn to concentrate (there are past threads on how to do-it-yourself at home)
- before starting math, do 5 minutes of cross-lateral exercises to get both brain hemispheres engaged and "talking" to each other
- some families have success with timers, esp. when the timer has a visual countdown aspect; start with very short times (like, 2 minutes) to help the student see that they've drifted, and slowly increase time as the student gains a longer concentration ability

If the child has tons of energy to burn, then have her do 1 problem, then do 5 jumping jacks; do the next problem and hop down the hall and back; do the next problem and bounce on a mini-tramopline for 20 jumps; do the next problem and dance to 30 seconds of music; etc.

You can also break a math lesson into short "bursts" -- instead of taking 30 minutes in one sitting, do 3 short 10-minute bursts of math. Using a timer with the visual countdown can help with seeing that she doesn't have to sit for very long to get a burst done.

Also, feed her brain with a protein snack right before starting the math. Peanut butter spread on something. A handful of nuts, and eat one nut after each problem. Cheese sticks. Humus dip and veggies... etc. And drink water! When we feel thirst, we are already starting to dehydrate, and dehydration reduces ability to concentrate.

Also, if the child has AD/HD, you may want to consider medication. You could at least try a 1/2 cup of coffee and see how the caffeine works on her system. If it helps her calm and focus, then medication might be a blessing. It can be extremely frustrating to a child who is trying but is biologically unable to focus, and knows something is keeping them from succeeding. Several people on these boards have had their children professionally evaluated and started meds, and the children are SO relieved at finally being able to focus and learn.

BEST of luck in finding what helps best! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Lori D.

[Janeway]

Maybe Right Start. It is very interactive.

[Aspasia]

On 8/20/2021 at 2:47 PM, Janeway said:

My kids who have been like this always ended up back at Singapore Math. If you switch to that, then make sure you back up and use the placement tests.

Which version do you use? I'm always overwhelmed by the options with Singapore.

[Lori D.]

On 8/20/2021 at 9:12 AM, Aspasia said:

My 9yo dd is just really different from my other kids in pretty much every way, including the way she learns. For my others, I use Horizons Math for K-3 and then switch to Math Mammoth and it has worked beautifully for them...

... need to change the way I approach instruction with this kid. Horizons hasn’t been a hit...  She most certainly will not thrive with Math Mammoth. So what is a good math program for a bright, fidgety kid who doesn’t really love “school”? I’ve never used Math-U-See, but I’m wondering if that might be a good fit. Also considering Life of Fred. Anything else?

Oops! So sorry! I somehow misread the first line of your post that Math Mammoth WAS working beautifully -- to mean it worked for this DD -- and missed that line further down that she would NOT thrive with it .. sorry about that! Ignore the first sentence of my previous post -- the rest of the post is good, though. 😉

If she's getting the math concepts with Horizons, you might first try some of the fidget ideas I listed in that previous post -- so, stick with the same program, but change HOW you do it. Just change one variable at a time as you experiment. 😉

1 hour ago, Aspasia said:

Which version do you use? I'm always overwhelmed by the options with Singapore.

re: Singapore
Just an FYI: Singapore is more "Asian" in style of teaching than Math Mammoth (MM), which is mildly in that direction, in case that is why MM is not a fit for your DD. As far as what to get -- you can go pretty bare-bones, if you want. My kids were doing elementary math back in the early 2000s, when the US edition of Singapore was all there was 😉 -- teacher guide + student workbook. Present material from a page or two of the teacher guide (as much of a lesson as student could absorb), child did 2-3 pages in the workbook,  and then the next day, just do the next thing. Singapore was a great fit for my math-minded DS#1.

re: MUS
However, DS#2 has mild LDs (stealth dyslexia, on the ADD spectrum) and is an extremely visual-spatial learner -- so big struggles with spelling, writing, and most math topics. After running through a lot of math programs in the first 4 years of homeschooling, we finally found Math-U-See (MUS) for 5th grade. Probably a combination of that was the program that was a fit for HIM, but also that was the year (10yo) he was finally starting to click with his math struggle areas. MUS is great at providing the visual "why" the math topics work as they do. However, IMO, MUS is weak at teaching problem-solving, so I DID use excerpts of Singapore 4a/b, 5a/b, and 6a/b as a supplement for this DS#2 along with the upper elementary/middle school levels of MUS (Epsilon (fractions), Zeta (decimals/percents), and Pre-Algebra).

re: Life of Fred
A homeschooling friend had a DD with dyslexia and some other learning issues, and Life of Fred turned out to be the only thing that worked for her. They found it in late middle school and used it into high school. They had used MUS for at least 3-4 years previously (so late elementary/middle school) with limited success, and had tried, without much success, several other more traditional math programs for the early elementary grades. Just throwing in that anecdote, because some kids are far off the traditional math learning spectrum, so sometimes it is the odd program like this that is the thing that clicks for them, especially if mom is not very math-y and doesn't have the ability to teach math in a variety of ways, or lead into a topic with some experimenting and puzzles.

HOWEVER, I have NO personal experience with Life of Fred, and this recent thread would most likely have me looking elsewhere at the myriad of options before considering it: "Life of Fred - tell it to me straight".

re: Teaching Textbooks
Spiral-based, traditional style teaching, video lessons, and every problem is worked out for the child, if needed. As @ktgrok mentioned above, that can be a good fit for some AD/HD kids, as well.

BEST of luck in finding what works best for YOUR bright, fidget-y, non-school-y DD, AND for you. Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Lori D.

[Janeway]

3 hours ago, Aspasia said:

Which version do you use? I'm always overwhelmed by the options with Singapore.

US edition. It has less review and gets more to the point. I can supplement with more hands on stuff or interactive stuff where there might be struggles. I really like the US edition.

[Aspasia]

On 8/20/2021 at 2:47 PM, Janeway said:

My kids who have been like this always ended up back at Singapore Math. If you switch to that, then make sure you back up and use the placement tests.

Okay, as I understand it, if they score at least 80% on the placement test, then they're ready for the next level.  So I gave dd the placement test for 3B, assuming she'd not score too high and I'd give her 3A and hope that she scored high enough on that to indicate starting with 3B instead of going a whole year backward. That girl zoomed through the placement test like it was no big deal and only missed ONE problem! So even though she drags her feet and almost never finishes her work, apparently she's getting it. I'm telling you, this child baffles me. 

Anyway, I think I am going to go with Singapore 4A. I'm thinking the repetitiveness and sheer volume of problems in Horizons made her shutdown, which is exactly why I knew Math Mammoth would be TERRIBLE for her. Seems like Singapore has just the right amount of practice for a kid who picks it up quickly and simply won't tolerate overkill. 

[Slache]

Sounds like Right Start. Alternatively you could use vintage math, like Strayer Upton because it takes less time. I use this until Saxon 5/4, but not after that.

A hive member that is no longer here had an incredibly active child. Her house was all hardwood and she had a black board. She would have the child wear skates and do a loop around the house in between each problem. This gave her time to write it on the board, child didn't have to sit because the problem was large, child was ready to chill out and sit for a few hours after skating 27 loops around the house.

[Janeway]

1 hour ago, Aspasia said:

Okay, as I understand it, if they score at least 80% on the placement test, then they're ready for the next level.  So I gave dd the placement test for 3B, assuming she'd not score too high and I'd give her 3A and hope that she scored high enough on that to indicate starting with 3B instead of going a whole year backward. That girl zoomed through the placement test like it was no big deal and only missed ONE problem! So even though she drags her feet and almost never finishes her work, apparently she's getting it. I'm telling you, this child baffles me. 

Anyway, I think I am going to go with Singapore 4A. I'm thinking the repetitiveness and sheer volume of problems in Horizons made her shutdown, which is exactly why I knew Math Mammoth would be TERRIBLE for her. Seems like Singapore has just the right amount of practice for a kid who picks it up quickly and simply won't tolerate overkill. 

You might want to consider the 3A test too, but she is likely fine. In my daughter's case, she did BJU Math 3. Then, I gave her the tests and she needed 3A but not 3B. So she was able to do 3A and then 4A. Well, my daughter is in 4th grade now. She really wanted to do TGTB math. The review is mixed. The program is lovely and very thorough. But it is a lot of seat work and my daughter does not like to sit that long. She is starting to want to return to Singapore Math. Which she will. But I want her to finish what she started with TGTB first. 

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, Aspasia said:

Okay, as I understand it, if they score at least 80% on the placement test, then they're ready for the next level.  So I gave dd the placement test for 3B, assuming she'd not score too high and I'd give her 3A and hope that she scored high enough on that to indicate starting with 3B instead of going a whole year backward. That girl zoomed through the placement test like it was no big deal and only missed ONE problem! So even though she drags her feet and almost never finishes her work, apparently she's getting it. I'm telling you, this child baffles me. 

Anyway, I think I am going to go with Singapore 4A. I'm thinking the repetitiveness and sheer volume of problems in Horizons made her shutdown, which is exactly why I knew Math Mammoth would be TERRIBLE for her. Seems like Singapore has just the right amount of practice for a kid who picks it up quickly and simply won't tolerate overkill. 

Yea! Sounds like a good plan, and a good fit for this unique student.

[Aspasia]

6 hours ago, Janeway said:

You might want to consider the 3A test too, but she is likely fine. In my daughter's case, she did BJU Math 3. Then, I gave her the tests and she needed 3A but not 3B. So she was able to do 3A and then 4A. Well, my daughter is in 4th grade now. She really wanted to do TGTB math. The review is mixed. The program is lovely and very thorough. But it is a lot of seat work and my daughter does not like to sit that long. She is starting to want to return to Singapore Math. Which she will. But I want her to finish what she started with TGTB first. 

That's a good idea. I'll do that tomorrow.

[Not_a_Number]

9 hours ago, Aspasia said:

That's a good idea. I'll do that tomorrow.

Does she like any puzzles? Because to me, it actually kind of sounds like she may not be being challenged enough.