Early Marriage

[vonfirmath]

4 hours ago, Junie said:

@Scarlett and I have similar views on dating -- we don't allow dating until college, and even then we don't recommend it during freshman year.  Our religion teaches abstinence before marriage and I think that dating for many years before marriage makes that goal more difficult.

My dad tells me that he and my mom got to the point where they needed to either get married or break up. So they got married.

 

[vonfirmath]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Meh...too soon, too soon! DH said the same thing until he met me. My DS says this too. It may be true but my best guess here is that some chick is going to drive him to distraction (in a messy and annoying way both for us and DS) and that will be it.

I was the rich single aunt who spoiled my nieces and nephews until I met my now-husband.

 

[teachermom2834]

I actually don’t disagree with the concept of waiting until you are ready for marriage to date. I think it sounds wonderful and I would love if mine hadn’t dated in high school. I think it sounds ideal.

But my real children were not wired that way. I couldn’t have forbidden it if I tried. So we didn’t forbid it and we heavily supervised and had lots of rules and talks and talks and talks. 

But if I had been able to make that work for my family I would have.But real life did not go that way. But I totally get the concept. 

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

No one says young marriages are doomed.  Stories and anecdotes don’t equate to data.  There is data showing younger marriages are more likely to divorce.  That doesn’t mean they will.  
 

rate of divorce is definitely higher among subsequent marriages.  My husband and I have been married over 20 years and it’s his 2nd marriage.  The data is still true.  
 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf
 

 

Okay. I feel we are splitting hairs here. No one may actually say young marriages are doomed but at some point if the data is bad enough - it’s viewed as a doomed expedition.

But with marriages that are even riskier - such as second marriages - people rarely come down so discouragingly hard on the couple.

I tend to think the biggest factor to marriage success is support network. 

3 hours ago, Condessa said:

It's interesting to me how many people on here have the experience of the divide in circles they know being between early marriage and education, especially for girls.  Being lds, and especially having attended a church university, my personal experience is very different.  I guess my religion must be unusual for so often opting for both early marriage/family and higher education. 

If you ever get a chance to walk around BYU campus, you will spot plenty of young, pregnant female students and babies.  There was a dad in my Hebrew linguistics classes who's son came with him to class every day, and then he and his wife would swap in the hall before their next classes (so that neither had him with in their lab sciences).  The baby was crawling and then walking around the classroom, and our professor would hold him and play with him during timed quizzes so that dad wouldn't be distracted.

I’ve long lamented the attitude that marriage/kids = stop doing anything. Can’t go to college. Can’t go out for coffee with your friends. And so forth. That’s not been my reality but I get enough shock about it in society to know that my marriage dynamic and view of this is not the standard for a lot of women out there. 

[Danae]

10 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

But with marriages that are even riskier - such as second marriages - people rarely come down so discouragingly hard on the couple.

 

Well if you’re young you can wait until you’re older.  If you’ve been married before then there isn’t really anything you can do to make your next marriage not a second marriage.  
 

I agree with you, though, that a support system makes a big difference at any age and that having kids doesn’t mean everything else in life is suspended.

[Tap]

DD22 and her husband, got married at 19. They have a few other friends who also got married young. She was homeschooled half of her years, he went to private school till 9th grade. They both went to public high school. I wouldn't say that religion or homeschool had anything to do with thier young marriage. 

They dated their senior year and then lived together for a year before getting married. Honestly, their marriage was predictable a few months after they moved in together. They were just ready to be married and be on thier way as adults. They are both very responsible and focused on thier relationship and co-lives.

DD was quite sick when she got married.  I am glad she is getting a chance to have the life she wants. She is still ill, but no where near as bad as she was at that time. She could completely go into remission....or she could relapse. We don't know what tomorrow brings. But, I can tell you one thing. She is living every day of her current life on her (and her spouses) own terms. If that means marriage at 19...I am happy to see her in a committed loving marriage. 3 years in, they have a rock solid marriage that is kind, loving and stable. 

 

[KungFuPanda]

14 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

what does fundy mean? I looked it up and the definition is

 [ fuhn-dee ] SHOW IPA. / ˈfʌn di / PHONETIC RESPELLING. noun. Bay of, an inlet of the Atlantic in SE Canada, between New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, having swift tidal currents.

It’s shorthand for Christian Fundamentalists that take it to extremes. Think Dugger-esque where you prefer not to educate your children for fear they’ll become too worldly or you’ll go to great lengths, including teen marriage, to prevent premarital sex. They think the Creation Museum is an awesome and educational field trip. There are definitely pockets of these people scattered throughout the U.S. You Australians need to accept some responsibility for Ken Ham. Could someone come pick him up?

[Melissa in Australia]

Nope , our borders are closed

[BlsdMama]

18 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Ok, is anyone else seeing this in the homeschool community? I am wondering if it is pandemic related. My daughter left homeschooling to go to a private Christian school. Only 8 in her high school graduating class. There were probably 8 girls or so in her homeschooling class of 2020. All of the girls in both types of classes are engaged. Several I know that graduated last year are getting married. These kids are 18 and 19.  This feels really, really young.  Do you think it is sort of like WWII and the world feels so unstable that they just want not to waste time?  

My daughter married this year at 19. She started college classes at sixteen. She’s now in her nursing program. She has been dating our SIL for two years. What’s the purpose behind dating 3, 4, 5+ years? I married DH at 19. His parents have been married over two decades and they’re our age too. There are many successful marriages that started young. 

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

My daughter married this year at 19. She started college classes at sixteen. She’s now in her nursing program. She has been dating our SIL for two years. What’s the purpose behind dating 3, 4, 5+ years? I married DH at 19. His parents have been married over two decades and they’re our age too. There are many successful marriages that started young. 

I am clearly reading this wrong because I can not figure out how DH’s parents are DH and your age.  Most people’s parents are older than they are.

[Frances]

4 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I am clearly reading this wrong because I can not figure out how DH’s parents are DH and your age.  Most people’s parents are older than they are.

I think she was referring to her SIL’s parents being the same age as her and her husband.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Frances

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think she was referring to her SIL’s parents being the same age as her and her husband.

That would make much more sense.

I am tired, my brain doesn’t work so well when I am tired.

[Condessa]

I married a month after turning 20, and it was absolutely the right decision for me.   If a young adult is mature and ready for the real work of establishing and maintaining a solid long-term relationship, and they happen to find the right person early, why wait?  But I did have some misgivings about my 19-year-old niece's marriage this summer.  She never struck me as particularly mature for her age and was so recently still in that changeable adolescent phase that I worry whether she is ready yet.  

[Carrie12345]

11 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Two people being romantically interested in each other.

 

11 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Oh, well shoot, I've dated TONS of people then. LOL.

Yeah, I guess I’ve dated more people than I thought!

I don’t know how one (Well, two) just decides not to have romantic feelings. Acting or not acting on them, sure. But the having? If I had been able to control that, dh and I might not be married. I was NOT interested in marriage at all when I agreed to a first date. 8 months later, I made him my husband.

[Carrie12345]

4 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

My daughter married this year at 19. She started college classes at sixteen. She’s now in her nursing program. She has been dating our SIL for two years. What’s the purpose behind dating 3, 4, 5+ years? I married DH at 19. His parents have been married over two decades and they’re our age too. There are many successful marriages that started young. 

I will not guess at *other people’s purpose, but I do hope that dd, if she ever marries her current boyfriend, will have dated for 3, 4, 5+ years. It’s already been about 2, and I just don’t see them as ready to fully adult. That’s not a judgment, just a pretty objective observation of their current individual situations. Both terrific kids, both still figuring out their lives. Both acknowledging that fact.

I did think I was going to marry the boyfriend I dated for most of 2.5 years. I always have and always will be so grateful for the relationship we had. But I started having new and different ideas (or maybe just realizations) about what I wanted out of life around my 18th birthday, and our plans no longer lined up in a way that simple compromises could manage. Had we actually set a date inside of 3 years of dating, I think I would have gone through with it out of obligation, and that thought freaks me out!

That’s not a commentary on anyone else, just saying that there is no one “best timeframe” for everyone.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

have a view about the "right" age to marry... it's too tied up in my mind with when meeting the right person happens to happen. 

I hear ya about that, but I think people are likeliest to meet “the right person” when they think they are “the right age.” So if you and the people around you think 18, 19, 20 is the right age, chances are you will meet someone you like who meets some criteria, conscious or not. But if you don’t think yourself at the right age, you’re unlikely to meet the right person; your attention and focus is elsewhere. 
 

It’s why people already in a happy marriage don’t keep meeting other people they wish they had married; they are already married so they aren’t looking for a candidate anymore.  So one big factor in thinking you have now met The One is simply being in an age group you think is the Time to Get Married group. And a lot of *this* is shaped by ones social group and parental views. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

My daughter married this year at 19. She started college classes at sixteen. She’s now in her nursing program. She has been dating our SIL for two years. What’s the purpose behind dating 3, 4, 5+ years? I married DH at 19. His parents have been married over two decades and they’re our age too. There are many successful marriages that started young. 

For me, the purpose behind being an unmarried couple for more years is to get to a more mature and stable place before you make a lifelong commitment to this person. It’s not to say that you g marriages can never be successful. (My mom was 19. I was 23, which I feel is on the verge of still being pretty young.) 

 

In my view, there’s so much growing and identity shaping that *should* happen between high school and maybe mid-twenties, it seems pretty unfortunate to be married. I feel this more with daughters than sons because it is more likely the female will table her ambitions if people marry young. 
 

My daughter is marrying next month to her only boyfriend of her life. They could have married when she was 18 in terms of having already been a couple for years and years. But I am so super glad she didn’t, because she lived in France twice, finished a bachelors and matured in a lot of ways, in her thinking and evaluation of what’s going on in the world. And her fiancé got his degree, secured a great job, secured housing and insurance, and presumably also matured in his thinking. 

[TexasProud]

6 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

My daughter married this year at 19. She started college classes at sixteen. She’s now in her nursing program. She has been dating our SIL for two years. What’s the purpose behind dating 3, 4, 5+ years? I married DH at 19. His parents have been married over two decades and they’re our age too. There are many successful marriages that started young. 

Yes, you are right. I do think that there can be successful marriages that start early. They have a plan and common sense. But when EVERY SINGLE girl that is 18/19 in the homeschool class is engaged to be married this year... that feels like a bandwagon and not common sense.  I also do not think they are going to college or anything. Anyway, it is just a trend I am seeing this year that I have not seen in previous years and it is just so strange to see all of my daughter's former playmates engaged.  But you are absolutely right, in some circumstances it can work. But I still STRONGLY urged my children, especially my daughter, to get her degree before she considers tying herself down.  It can be really hard to finish your degree.  Surprise pregnancies happen. Life just doesn't go as planned. You need to be as prepared as possible with a career to support yourself.  Again, sounds like your daughter is prepared and has a good head on her shoulders.  Granted, I have not been in touch with these young ladies in awhile, but I have very flighty images in my head with stars in their eyes.  And again, it is that her whole graduating class of ladies is engaged. One or two, ok. But this feels like some sort of trend.

[Sneezyone]

8 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Okay. I feel we are splitting hairs here. No one may actually say young marriages are doomed but at some point if the data is bad enough - it’s viewed as a doomed expedition.

But with marriages that are even riskier - such as second marriages - people rarely come down so discouragingly hard on the couple.

I tend to think the biggest factor to marriage success is support network. 

I’ve long lamented the attitude that marriage/kids = stop doing anything. Can’t go to college. Can’t go out for coffee with your friends. And so forth. That’s not been my reality but I get enough shock about it in society to know that my marriage dynamic and view of this is not the standard for a lot of women out there. 

External support, individuality, income, all important. Delaying marriage can give people the time to figure that out tho.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, you are right. I do think that there can be successful marriages that start early. They have a plan and common sense. But when EVERY SINGLE girl that is 18/19 in the homeschool class is engaged to be married this year... that feels like a bandwagon and not common sense.  I also do not think they are going to college or anything. Anyway, it is just a trend I am seeing this year that I have not seen in previous years and it is just so strange to see all of my daughter's former playmates engaged.  But you are absolutely right, in some circumstances it can work. But I still STRONGLY urged my children, especially my daughter, to get her degree before she considers tying herself down.  It can be really hard to finish your degree.  Surprise pregnancies happen. Life just doesn't go as planned. You need to be as prepared as possible with a career to support yourself.  Again, sounds like your daughter is prepared and has a good head on her shoulders.  Granted, I have not been in touch with these young ladies in awhile, but I have very flighty images in my head with stars in their eyes.  And again, it is that her whole graduating class of ladies is engaged. One or two, ok. But this feels like some sort of trend.

This. I married at twenty, but began college full time D.E. at 16 on campus and had little involvement at all from my parents. So I graduated with my first BA three weeks before our wedding, and completed coursework for another related degree the following year. I am adamantly opposed to anyone marrying before having completed a degree, trade licensing and whatever apprenticeships/clincals go with it, or similar career training. I have watched a scary number of persons with young children abandoned by spouses who were "all that" or so the parents of the young engaged person thought at the time. Add to that the fact that life is messy and unpredictable, having a person who has no ability to support a family in an era when a high school diploma just doesn't cut it, and that is just a big old NO in my book.

One teen from a large group of high school seniors being engaged would not make me pause to consider what is going on, but a LOT of them, and I would be uneasy.

[BlsdMama]

8 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I am clearly reading this wrong because I can not figure out how DH’s parents are DH and your age.  Most people’s parents are older than they are.

LOL! I'm sorry - I was unclear.  DH and I have been married 25 years.  "His" (my son in law's) parents are also our age and have been married about 20 years, so early twenties.  

DH and I say we come with a legacy of marriage - 3/4 sets of grandparents stayed married 40+ years until death.  My mom's ten siblings - 10/11 have been married for over 40 years. (Ironically, the one divorce was married later in life.) My dad's ten siblings - 9/11 stayed married for 30 years and more with 2 divorces.  None of them are very religious, but small rural area with families for the most part.  I am always surprised how unique my own experience is because divorce was so unusual in our life.

There are SO many factors in young marriage that it is difficult to tease apart the pieces.  For example, how can one compare two teen marriages where in one, the goal was the ability to finally have sex, lol, but the goal of the other was to create a life they loved and support one another? Both of my oldest two daughters married at 19.  The oldest finished her undergrad but chose to put off her graduate degree for now.  The second is continuing in her nursing program.  The concept of mutual respect, support, and love is a bit different than checking the box of "doing the next thing" - as in I've graduated high school, I'm not continuing on in my education, and so what's next? This is why a broad statement of, "Teenage marriages don't do well," based on data doesn't necessarily reflect well on individuals.  Outside of religious sects, teenage marriage can often just represent incredible impulsivity - something that doesn't bode well longterm.

[regentrude]

8 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

What’s the purpose behind dating 3, 4, 5+ years? 

One might turn the question around and ask what's the purpose behind marriage? For many people, the only thing distinguishing marriage from a committed unmarried relationship are the legal aspects, and those are often irrelevant for years until child custody,  tax benefits, insurance, or visa considerations tip the scale in favor of signing the paper. (We got married after six years of dating because we both were applying for postdoc positions abroad, and in case only one of us were successful, the other wouldn't have gotten a visa otherwise.)

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

DH and I say we come with a legacy of marriage - 3/4 sets of grandparents stayed married 40+ years until death.  My mom's ten siblings - 10/11 have been married for over 40 years. (Ironically, the one divorce was married later in life.) My dad's ten siblings - 9/11 stayed married for 30 years and more with 2 divorces.  .. I am always surprised how unique my own experience is because divorce was so unusual in our life.

I think that is very relevant. In my opinion, the biggest factor for marriage or relationship success is having grown up with strong models what a functional, loving,  respectful partnership looks like. It's terribly hard to learn healthy behavior when one has grown up immersed in generational dysfunction.

My parents are married 54 years, my aunt was married 60 years. Inlaws similar. I am very aware that having grown up in functional families gives DH and me a great advantage fir a successful marriage, and that witnessing our stable, drama free, relationship models for our children.

[pinball]

2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, you are right. I do think that there can be successful marriages that start early. They have a plan and common sense. But when EVERY SINGLE girl that is 18/19 in the homeschool class is engaged to be married this year... that feels like a bandwagon and not common sense.  I also do not think they are going to college or anything. Anyway, it is just a trend I am seeing this year that I have not seen in previous years and it is just so strange to see all of my daughter's former playmates engaged.  But you are absolutely right, in some circumstances it can work. But I still STRONGLY urged my children, especially my daughter, to get her degree before she considers tying herself down.  It can be really hard to finish your degree.  Surprise pregnancies happen. Life just doesn't go as planned. You need to be as prepared as possible with a career to support yourself.  Again, sounds like your daughter is prepared and has a good head on her shoulders.  Granted, I have not been in touch with these young ladies in awhile, but I have very flighty images in my head with stars in their eyes.  And again, it is that her whole graduating class of ladies is engaged. One or two, ok. But this feels like some sort of trend.

How many are pregnant?

[TexasProud]

16 minutes ago, pinball said:

How many are pregnant?

None that I know of.  Now in the public high school out of 250ish we had 6 pregnant seniors.  I only know one of them and she isn't getting married and is raising the kid alone / well with parents help, crib in her room. 

[Pam in CT]

re the "purpose" of extended dating

9 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

....What’s the purpose behind dating 3, 4, 5+ years? ...

Speaking only for myself (met husband at 17, married him at 27, celebrating 30 years marriage in a few weeks)... the purpose was twofold: to do a bunch of things more easily done single; and to grow up/ mature enough to approach marriage more responsibly.

He was a year ahead of me in college, wanting to plunge himself into law school in a Very Serious way and thereafter to work at one of those Big New York firms that demand, and extract, 12+ hour days 7 days a week.  He finished college first and started that strand of his life.  I OTOH wanted to do a graduate degree that really was only available in another part of the country, to live overseas, to travel.  Those many years where he was studying/working until 10p+ every night was *exactly* the right time for me to do a degree long distance, to live even further distance, and upon my graduation to get a job that entailed a lot of business travel. 

And a less-than-ideal time to launch marriage and even more so kids.

So we waited.  And by the time we got married, we were both ready to downshift.  And also had saved enough to buy a house, and otherwise be financially stable.

Some couples do that growing-up and maturing process together, which is also lovely in its own way.  In our case, our growing-up process really was built around such very different aspirations/plans that we wouldn't have been able to "compromise" around them.  (Also, tbh, neither of us had particularly good communication or compromising skills, in our teen/early 20s years.)

 

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I will not guess at *other people’s purpose, but I do hope that dd, if she ever marries her current boyfriend, will have dated for 3, 4, 5+ years. It’s already been about 2, and I just don’t see them as ready to fully adult. That’s not a judgment, just a pretty objective observation of their current individual situations. Both terrific kids, both still figuring out their lives. Both acknowledging that fact...

That’s not a commentary on anyone else, just saying that there is no one “best timeframe” for everyone.

Yeah, that was us.

 

re receptivity to the "right" person being correlated to sense of what is the "right" age

3 hours ago, Quill said:

I hear ya about that, but I think people are likeliest to meet “the right person” when they think they are “the right age.” So if you and the people around you think 18, 19, 20 is the right age, chances are you will meet someone you like who meets some criteria, conscious or not. But if you don’t think yourself at the right age, you’re unlikely to meet the right person; your attention and focus is elsewhere. 
 

It’s why people already in a happy marriage don’t keep meeting other people they wish they had married; they are already married so they aren’t looking for a candidate anymore.  So one big factor in thinking you have now met The One is simply being in an age group you think is the Time to Get Married group. And a lot of *this* is shaped by ones social group and parental views. 

That is interesting.

And I suppose my own experience kinda-sorta tracks that: my FOO , extended family, and social circle nearly all married 25 yo and up; and my husband's extended family even more so. 

As it happened, we met each other much, much earlier than that.  And we kinda-sorta recognized the "rightness" early on... the attraction was there from the get-go, in a distinctly different mode than all the other attractions, LOL... but we sort of shelved it until later, and then took a very long dance, what we now refer to as "lurching toward matrimony."

 

3 hours ago, Quill said:

For me, the purpose behind being an unmarried couple for more years is to get to a more mature and stable place before you make a lifelong commitment to this person. It’s not to say that you g marriages can never be successful. (My mom was 19. I was 23, which I feel is on the verge of still being pretty young.) 

In my view, there’s so much growing and identity shaping that *should* happen between high school and maybe mid-twenties, it seems pretty unfortunate to be married. I feel this more with daughters than sons because it is more likely the female will table her ambitions if people marry young. 

My daughter is marrying next month to her only boyfriend of her life. They could have married when she was 18 in terms of having already been a couple for years and years. But I am so super glad she didn’t, because she lived in France twice, finished a bachelors and matured in a lot of ways, in her thinking and evaluation of what’s going on in the world. And her fiancé got his degree, secured a great job, secured housing and insurance, and presumably also matured in his thinking. 

Mazel tov to her, and him, and you and your husband.

And I am sure her experiences and the maturity she gleaned through them will serve her well into marriage and adulthood.

[shawthorne44]

15 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t know that I would call him a creeper. She was only 14 when they started liking each other. Almost 15. I definitely do not feel like he is a pedophile or anything like that. He is just super immature himself. But I think her parents are complete idiots for encouraging and allowing it. 

While in college, I long-term dated someone about 10-years older.   I think we had a mental age about equal.   When I met him he'd been a tea-totaler for several years.   But, he'd started drugs very young, and serious drugs at that.   They think that serious drug use stops the brain's development.     If you subtracted out his drug-use years, we were the same age.  

 

 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

While in college, I long-term dated someone about 10-years older.   I think we had a mental age about equal.   When I met him he'd been a tea-totaler for several years.   But, he'd started drugs very young, and serious drugs at that.   They think that serious drug use stops the brain's development.     If you subtracted out his drug-use years, we were the same age.  

 

 

I think that is often the case with males vs females anyway.  This male has no history of drug use at all....and honestly I am not against that big of an age gap IF she had been old enough in the beginning.  Ultimately, her parents made the decision----which is their legal right but it still bugs me.  

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Seasider too said:

But having early marriage put upon youth as an expectation is something I see as problematic. 

This.

Don't quote, will delete:

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by regentrude

[KungFuPanda]

This thread just reminded me that I saw a purity ring in a smithsonian museum last week. I’d completely blocked that out until this conversation!

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

Wise young man there. His mama should be proud. 

I am proud of them both. But I am even prouder of his gf because she had to go against a long-standing family culture which must have been much harder.

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

I think that is very relevant. In my opinion, the biggest factor for marriage or relationship success is having grown up with strong models what a functional, loving,  respectful partnership looks like. It's terribly hard to learn healthy behavior when one has grown up immersed in generational dysfunction.

My parents are married 54 years, my aunt was married 60 years. Inlaws similar. I am very aware that having grown up in functional families gives DH and me a great advantage fir a successful marriage, and that witnessing our stable, drama free, relationship models for our children.

I don’t disagree, but I think it can be expanded upon.

Some people learn a lot from dysfunctional situations.  I did not see how like my deadbeat dad ds’s father was until he was a father. I don’t want anyone to intentionally have kids to run that test, lol, but I didn’t see that particular dysfunction until, well, I saw it. I knew first hand how that dynamic can mess up a kid, so I left.

And length of marriage is not a solid indication of strength of marriage.

But, yes, healthy examples go a long way!

[Scarlett]

About the last two pages have  been reasons to not marry early. I agree with so many of them.  To me it justs reinforces the case for not becoming romantically linked or dating before you are in a position to marry.  

Date a person from age 18-24 and break up because you decide you don't want kids and she does?

Date someone from 18-24 and then break up with them because you decide you can't deal with a mental illness that presented itself in the meantime?

Date someone from 18-24 and then break up because you decide he/she isn't mature/spiritual/ambitious/social/ etc for you?

It just seems better to me to wait until you know what you want and who you want to be, know how to spot what you want in another human and be in a position to execute both people's plan.

Shrug.  Makes sense to me anyway.

[hippymamato3]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

About the last two pages have  been reasons to not marry early. I agree with so many of them.  To me it justs reinforces the case for not becoming romantically linked or dating before you are in a position to marry.  

Date a person from age 18-24 and break up because you decide you don't want kids and she does?

Date someone from 18-24 and then break up with them because you decide you can't deal with a mental illness that presented itself in the meantime?

Date someone from 18-24 and then break up because you decide he/she isn't mature/spiritual/ambitious/social/ etc for you?

It just seems better to me to wait until you know what you want and who you want to be, know how to spot what you want in another human and be in a position to execute both people's plan.

Shrug.  Makes sense to me anyway.

All those things are things to think about. But you can be old enough and know what you want and STILL end up being abused or cheated on and get a divorce. Young love isn't really any less "safe" than any other relationship. JMO of course.

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Date a person from age 18-24 and break up because you decide you don't want kids and she does?

Date someone from 18-24 and then break up with them because you decide you can't deal with a mental illness that presented itself in the meantime?

Date someone from 18-24 and then break up because you decide he/she isn't mature/spiritual/ambitious/social/ etc for you?

It just seems better to me to wait until you know what you want and who you want to be, know how to spot what you want in another human and be in a position to execute both people's plan.

Two thoughts:
1. The years of spending time with one another may have enriched both their lives, even if they decided to end the relationship.

2. People change, even after a wedding. People's desire to want kids changes. People can fall ill after being married. I don't think anybody can know how they will be dealing with life scenarios until they are in them: mental illness in self or spouse, caring for a disabled child, job loss, infertility... Life may not go according to "both people's plans".

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by regentrude

[Scarlett]

Just now, regentrude said:

Two thoughts:
1. The years of spending time with one another may have enriched both their lives, even if they decided to end the relationship.

2. People change, even after a wedding. People's desire to want kids changes. People can fall ill after being married. I don't think anybody can know how they will be dealing with life scenarios until they are in them: mental illness in self or spouse, caring for a disabled child, job loss, infertility... Life may not go according to "both people's plans".

 

Even strong relationships can break unde r

Obviously.  But the argument has been made over and over on this thread that the most and greatest changes come about by mid 20s.  

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, hippymamato3 said:

All those things are things to think about. But you can be old enough and know what you want and STILL end up being abused or cheated on and get a divorce. Young love isn't really any less "safe" than any other relationship. JMO of course.

Correct.  I am not necessarily against young marriage.  My point has been about long term dating with the reason for that being they aren't ready for marriage.  Or dating very young (before 18) and claiming to be aiming for chasteness.  Which sets young people up for 1)failure or 2) very young marriage.

 

[regentrude]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Obviously.  But the argument has been made over and over on this thread that the most and greatest changes come about by mid 20s.  

That is true.  But I don't share the conclusion that people should forgo relationships until their late twenties and that a relationship that does not lead to marriage is a waste of time.

[Scarlett]

Just now, regentrude said:

That is true.  But I don't share the conclusion that people should forgo relationships until their late twenties and that a relationship that does not lead to marriage is a waste of time.

I didn't say late 20s. And I didn't say relationships that don't lead to marriage are a waste of time.  But if a person is wanting to get married then yes, 10 years is a lot of time to waste.  Maybe lose is a better word.   

But I can bet that many people who have been dumped after 10 years of dating might feel that way.

[Pam in CT]

re what's the point? v2.0

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

About the last two pages have  been reasons to not marry early. I agree with so many of them.  To me it justs reinforces the case for not becoming romantically linked or dating before you are in a position to marry.  

Date a person from age 18-24 and break up because you decide you don't want kids and she does?

Date someone from 18-24 and then break up with them because you decide you can't deal with a mental illness that presented itself in the meantime?

Date someone from 18-24 and then break up because you decide he/she isn't mature/spiritual/ambitious/social/ etc for you?

It just seems better to me to wait until you know what you want and who you want to be, know how to spot what you want in another human and be in a position to execute both people's plan.

Shrug.  Makes sense to me anyway.

(Again speaking only for myself...)

For me, I needed practice to learn to figure it all out.  Some of that figuring was around my own values - what my own personal and professional goals were, what I wanted in a full and satisfying life, what was important and what was not.  But also some of the figuring was relational -- what constituted a healthy and reciprocal relationship, finding the courage to struggle when struggle was called for, finding the muscle to shut up when restraint was called for, learning to be generous, also learning not to be a doormat. Figuring out what good sex felt like. 

Much of that I ultimately worked out with the love of my life and the father of my children. But it took practice, and I did not have the either the perspective, or the communication skills, to pull it off at 22. Nor did he.  Had we married young, I sincerely doubt we would have made it through those immature and self-centered years. 

And I do not regret, at all, the perspective and reference points and other bits and pieces I learned through practice with other "dates" I had along the way before we married.  Nor the bits and pieces he learned from his.

Shrug.

 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re what's the point? v2.0

(Again speaking only for myself...)

For me, I needed practice to learn to figure it all out.  Some of that figuring was around my own values - what my own personal and professional goals were, what I wanted in a full and satisfying life, what was important and what was not.  But also some of the figuring was relational -- what constituted a healthy and reciprocal relationship, finding the courage to struggle when struggle was called for, finding the muscle to shut up when restraint was called for, learning to be generous, also learning not to be a doormat. Figuring out what good sex felt like. 

Much of that I ultimately worked out with the love of my life and the father of my children. But it took practice, and I did not have the either the perspective, or the communication skills, to pull it off at 22. Nor did he.  Had we married young, I sincerely doubt we would have made it through those immature and self-centered years. 

And I do not regret, at all, the perspective and reference points and other bits and pieces I learned through practice with other "dates" I had along the way before we married.  Nor the bits and pieces he learned from his.

Shrug.

 

As we tend to do this thread has gone down the rabbit hole (or is it trails?)....but my original comment was 'I think those who are striving to remain chaste before marriage should not date until they are ready for marriage'.  Obviously, my comment has not applied to many people in this thread.  

[Pam in CT]

re different starting premises

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

As we tend to do this thread has gone down the rabbit hole (or is it trails?)....but my original comment was 'I think those who are striving to remain chaste before marriage should not date until they are ready for marriage'.  Obviously, my comment has not applied to many people in this thread.  

Sure.  The vast majority of different views can be unwound back to different starting premises.

To me, it is far more important (to the people involved, to the probability that the marriage succeeds, to children that might come out of a marriage) that the partners be functional* grownups, than that they be virgins.  That *is* my starting premise.

You're right, all else more or less flows from that different point of departure.

 

 

 

 

* emotionally, maturity, communications-capacity, financially etc.... not legally=18

 

[Excelsior! Academy]

On 8/16/2021 at 7:55 AM, WildflowerMom said:

Around here it is mostly only “Church of Christ” folks who get married young or it’s kids who seem like they want to escape home and grow up as fast as possible—definitely not a religious thing.  So it’s one end of the spectrum or the other.   I don’t notice it at all among any organized groups except Church or Christ, so I wouldn’t say it’s a religious thing.  

Curious as to what you mean. Full disclaimer we attend a Church of Christ and while they are all autonomous we don't attend a mainstream one.  I can discuss in another thread or private message what that means, but don't want to derail this one.

 

 

I got married at 20 and it was much too young for me.  For most people mid-twenties is a better choice.  Your frontal lobe isn't fully developed until then and early adulthood life milestones like finishing your college education and starting a career are usually completed by then.  

[WildflowerMom]

6 minutes ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

Curious as to what you mean. Full disclaimer we attend a Church of Christ and while they are all autonomous we don't attend a mainstream one.  I can discuss in another thread or private message what that means, but don't want to derail this one.

 

 

I got married at 20 and it was much too young for me.  For most people mid-twenties is a better choice.  Your frontal lobe isn't fully developed until then and early adulthood life milestones like finishing your college education and starting a career are usually completed by then.  

The ones I'm familiar with in my area are all autonomous, but connected in that they participate in a lot of the same activities and intermarry within those churches.   You find the same last names constantly throughout these few churches.   They put early marriage on a pedestal, so to speak.   I know someone who wasn't in a serious relationship in highschool, so she found someone, brought them into the fold, married quickly after, all because she felt like the odd man out at church.    These girls were all planning their weddings and she didn't even have a boyfriend.  After much infidelity, they divorced within months. ☹️    There's a lot more I could say about those churches, but I'll refrain.    It would probably blow your mind.    (Btw, I have no clue what happens in other coC in other areas.  I can't imagine them all being like these!)

[HS Mom in NC]

Marriage at 18 and 19 is very unusual in my conservative circles (homeschooling and Evangelical) but 20-23 isn't unusual at all, even among kids who aren't conservative themselves, but grew up in conservative circles.  Many of my daughters' cohorts (ages 22-25) are married and most were after co-habitating for at least a year or two first.

My not-at-all-religious and not-raised-religious, educated-in-ps and STEM-focused-charter-schools sons-in-law, now 25, married at ages 22 and 23. One had just started his career (software programmer) and one is still working in entry level work (Target for the medical benefits) and going back to school for a degree. One daughter, now 23 is established in her career and has been for a few years now and the other, now 25,  is disabled at the moment with extensive testing in her near future by specialists (end of this month.)

My guess (I have no evidence to back it up) is that kids from households with married, never divorced parents who like each other are more optimistic about marriage and might be more inclined to marry younger.  People from conservative circles tend to highly value marriage over long-term companionship so that's a message their kids have received.

Add in the most conservative messaging of  "no sex before marriage is morally acceptable" to a receptive audience, and you'll get a higher number of them marrying younger. Honestly, what do people expect in that situation?  If you tell them that and they listen, then don't fuss about them wanting to marry earlier.  You can't have it both ways.

If you insist on later marriage for whatever reason, you're going to have to be realistic about and tell the kids where you stand on sex before marriage and then explain that you understand they may share your values.  If that's the case, then you want them to use at least 2 methods of contraception properly every time they engage in heterosexual sex because math doesn't care about our feelings or intentions, and failure rates are real. (No, it's not foolproof, but it's the minimum standard.) So is disease. Adults have to take responsibility for themselves and understand the potential consequences of their actions and plan accordingly.

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

As we tend to do this thread has gone down the rabbit hole (or is it trails?)....but my original comment was 'I think those who are striving to remain chaste before marriage should not date until they are ready for marriage'.  Obviously, my comment has not applied to many people in this thread.  

I guess, to me, dating is how you get ready for marriage.  My 14 year old currently has a "girlfriend", another rising 8th grader, and although I seriously doubt he'll end up marrying her, I can already see how this relationship is giving him opportunities to practice the communication skills, and the problem solving skills, that he'll need if or when he does get married.   And, because he's young, he's willing to ask me a million questions, and to let me provide more coaching than I'd be able to do with an older teen.  

Other than parenting my middle child, being married is far and away the most difficult thing I've ever done.  Not difficult as in unpleasant.  I love my husband and our relationship has brought me much joy.  It's difficult in the way that I assume climbing Mount Everest is difficult.  Something that people choose to do, and are proud of, but that involves constant attention and problem solving, and has a high risk of failure. 

I hope that my child is a full fledged adult before he gets married, with a college degree, and a career, and experience living alone and taking care of himself.  So, I figure, at a minimum, he's got 10 years to go before he gets to that point.  Which is great, because hard tasks take lots of practice.  I started my kids cooking in the kitchen as toddlers, because I knew that developing skills takes time, and cooking is way easier than being married in my experience.  I can't imagine spending 10+ years practicing for a far more important and difficult job will be a waste of time.  

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Marriage at 18 and 19 is very unusual in my conservative circles (homeschooling and Evangelical) but 20-23 isn't unusual at all, even among kids who aren't conservative themselves, but grew up in conservative circles.  Many of my daughters' cohorts (ages 22-25) are married and most were after co-habitating for at least a year or two first.

My not-at-all-religious and not-raised-religious, educated-in-ps and STEM-focused-charter-schools sons-in-law, now 25, married at ages 22 and 23. One had just started his career (software programmer) and one is still working in entry level work (Target for the medical benefits) and going back to school for a degree. One daughter, now 23 is established in her career and has been for a few years now and the other, now 25,  is disabled at the moment with extensive testing in her near future by specialists (end of this month.)

My guess (I have no evidence to back it up) is that kids from households with married, never divorced parents who like each other are more optimistic about marriage and might be more inclined to marry younger.  People from conservative circles tend to highly value marriage over long-term companionship so that's a message their kids have received.

Add in the most conservative messaging of  "no sex before marriage is morally acceptable" to a receptive audience, and you'll get a higher number of them marrying younger. Honestly, what do people expect in that situation?  If you tell them that and they listen, then don't fuss about them wanting to marry earlier.  You can't have it both ways.

If you insist on later marriage for whatever reason, you're going to have to be realistic about and tell the kids where you stand on sex before marriage and then explain that you understand they may share your values.  If that's the case, then you want them to use at least 2 methods of contraception properly every time they engage in heterosexual sex because math doesn't care about our feelings or intentions, and failure rates are real. (No, it's not foolproof, but it's the minimum standard.) So is disease. Adults have to take responsibility for themselves and understand the potential consequences of their actions and plan accordingly.

We have encouraged our adult children not to marry until post high school education/job training is completed. That said, we are not "consenting unmarried adults should not be sexually active people", and find the idea of parents feeling they should have a huge say in their adult children's intimate lives to be severely over reaching. 

As for contraception, they were told this from early teens, and were not told it was only for unmarried sex. A crap ton of babies come into this world within the context of marriage. The marriage license does not mean an automatic ability to properly care for a child. A crap ton of virgin newlyweds have received STI's from their new spouse if my OBGYN is to be believed. People lie all the damn time, and especially about virginity in the context of conservative religion. So married couples should begin with contraception and protection if they care at all about their health.

[Excelsior! Academy]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

A crap ton of virgin newlyweds have received STI's from their new spouse if my OBGYN is to be believed

That is so sad.

[Terabith]

2 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re what's the point? v2.0

(Again speaking only for myself...)

For me, I needed practice to learn to figure it all out.  Some of that figuring was around my own values - what my own personal and professional goals were, what I wanted in a full and satisfying life, what was important and what was not.  But also some of the figuring was relational -- what constituted a healthy and reciprocal relationship, finding the courage to struggle when struggle was called for, finding the muscle to shut up when restraint was called for, learning to be generous, also learning not to be a doormat. Figuring out what good sex felt like. 

Much of that I ultimately worked out with the love of my life and the father of my children. But it took practice, and I did not have the either the perspective, or the communication skills, to pull it off at 22. Nor did he.  Had we married young, I sincerely doubt we would have made it through those immature and self-centered years. 

And I do not regret, at all, the perspective and reference points and other bits and pieces I learned through practice with other "dates" I had along the way before we married.  Nor the bits and pieces he learned from his.

Shrug.

 

As someone who married at barely 22, to someone who was even more freshly 22, I totally agree that building a healthy reciprocal relationship takes a lot of practice.  But I think there is something to be said for getting that practice TOGETHER.  We had a lot of hard things to confront and deal with early in our marriage, even after having dated for four years before marriage, and some of them were BECAUSE we had committed to chastity before marriage.  (Honestly, my experiences with chastity before marriage have led me to definitely think that is much less valuable than I did when I was 22 and getting married.)  But we learned together what makes for a good marriage for US.  I'm not entirely sure that the things that make our marriage so good and so strong would apply in the same way to relationships with other people.  We learned together what each other values.  We learned together what the other person needs.  We learned together how to give and take in a way that is mutual.  We learned together that neither one of us can serve the other one's entire social and emotional needs.  I think there is value in doing that formative growing up TOGETHER.  Neither one of us got set in our own ways of doing things without the other.  

And while people do change a lot through their mid 20's, I certainly have changed a lot since then.  Every ten years or so, we realize that each of us have changed in different ways, and we have to practice accommodating our marriage to the new people that we have become.  I think it reminds us that love, and marriage, is not a one time choice or decision.  Marriage is a decision we have to make anew maybe not every day, but certainly every few years.  

I certainly don't think this is the only way to build a marriage, or necessarily even the best way for everyone.  In a whole lot of ways, I think our marriage is pretty atypical.  But it's strong, and it works for us.  

There is beauty and strength and value to marrying later in life, after having had time growing up separately and doing your own individual adventures.  And there is beauty and strength and value to marrying younger and growing together.  

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

That is true.  But I don't share the conclusion that people should forgo relationships until their late twenties and that a relationship that does not lead to marriage is a waste of time.

That's not what people mean. For people who are marriage-minded in their late teens and early 20s, it doesn't mean that any relationship that didn't result in marriage was a waste of their time. It's perfectly useful and constructive to be in a relationship and learn about your partner, yourself, and life, then over time come to the realization that the current partner isn't going to be a good candidate for being married to you.  It ends.  You're both the better for it. 

Continuing in a relationship where it has become obvious that marriage is not going to happen is a waste of time. So is entering one where it's already apparent the partner isn't ever going to be a candidate for marriage to you.  Marriage-minded people start out dating because of attraction and chemistry like anyone else, but as soon as it's apparent that the dating partner isn't a good fit as a future spouse, the kind thing to do is end the relationship and move on.  To do otherwise is wasting everyone's time.  And you never know when you're going to meet someone who is a good fit.  If you're in a relationship, even one that you know isn't going to end in marriage, then you're not in a position to look around and pay attention to people as potential dating partners. People miss many opportunities to date better candidates for them because they're already occupied in a dead-end relationship. 

Co-habitating has the potential to make it worse because it's hard enough for someone to admit the relationship is over when they aren't financially intertwined with their partner. When both are contributing to the cost of housing it's not just ending the relationship that has to be faced, it's finding other housing which costs time and money and knowing the partner being dumped will have to face that too, along with a possible broken heart.  Certain personalities who are avoidant of conflict are more likely to stay in a dead-end relationship longer in this type of situation.

Now if you're not marriage minded it doesn't matter as much.  That's fine.  But not everyone has to have the same mindset and priorities when dating. I'm soooooooo glad my husband and I were marriage-minded when we started dating at ages 19 and 25.  It took us 12 years to get 3 of the 4-5 kids we originally wanted. If we had added age related fertility decline to the pile of issues we had having kids, we'd only have 1 or maybe 2. That's a high cost.  Obviously not everyone has to have those same priorities, but for those who do, time is a significant factor.