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Afghanistan question - no partisan politics


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On 8/19/2021 at 5:12 PM, ktgrok said:

Especially when they are agreeing! Both are saying mistakes were made by current and outgoing leadership. They both messed up. Both posters have said this, and are starting to sound like my mom at Thanksgiving when she's had too much wine and is arguing with one of us even though we already agree with her. 

Except there is no pie this time. 

Ohmigosh. Your mom is my dad. I ADORE the man, but yes, doesn’t realize when we’re agreeing even. 
 

Carry on. I just had to recognize the kinship. 

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On 8/19/2021 at 6:12 PM, ktgrok said:

Especially when they are agreeing! Both are saying mistakes were made by current and outgoing leadership. They both messed up. Both posters have said this, and are starting to sound like my mom at Thanksgiving when she's had too much wine and is arguing with one of us even though we already agree with her. 

Except there is no pie this time. 

 

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

Ohmigosh. Your mom is my dad. I ADORE the man, but yes, doesn’t realize when we’re agreeing even. 
 

Carry on. I just had to recognize the kinship. 

And when I read Katie's post I thought, "Ohhhh.  That's me... " (except I don't drink -- it's just kind of how I am all the time, especially with my husband and kids.)

Well, one more thing for me to work on.  Sigh.

 

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2 minutes ago, Plum said:

From Politico

U.S. officials in Kabul gave the Taliban a list of names of American citizens, green card holders and Afghan allies to grant entry into the militant-controlled outer perimeter of the city’s airport, a choice that's prompted outrage behind the scenes from lawmakers and military officials.

The move, detailed to POLITICO by three U.S. and congressional officials, was designed to expedite the evacuation of tens of thousands of people from Afghanistan as chaos erupted in Afghanistan’s capital city last week after the Taliban seized control of the country. It also came as the Biden administration has been relying on the Taliban for security outside the airport.

“Basically, they just put all those Afghans on a kill list,” said one defense official, who like others spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive topic. “It’s just appalling and shocking and makes you feel unclean.”

Asked about POLITICO's reporting during a Thursday news conference, President Joe Biden said he wasn't sure there were such lists, but also didn't deny that sometimes the U.S. hands over names to the Taliban.

"There have been occasions when our military has contacted their military counterparts in the Taliban and said this, for example, this bus is coming through with X number of people on it, made up of the following group of people. We want you to let that bus or that group through," he said. "So, yes there have been occasions like that. To the best of my knowledge, in those cases, the bulk of that has occurred and they have been let through.

"I can't tell you with any certitude that there's actually been a list of names," he added. "There may have been. But I know of no circumstance. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, that here's the names of 12 people, they're coming, let them through. It could very well have happened."

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/26/us-officials-provided-taliban-with-names-of-americans-afghan-allies-to-evacuate-506957

 

Ummm  WTF 

I don't think this could have been handled any worse. 

I agree. Biden saying “we’ll hunt you down”. I mean it sounds just like Bush after 9/11. Are we going to start over now?  All of those soldiers and civilians were just sitting ducks today for a terrorist attack. It’s completely botched. Botched doesn’t come close, actually. 

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The Taliban is the authority with ostensible control of the area outside of the airport. That control isn't absolute. It's haphazard and porous. There is no way to get people to the airport without passing through territory they control tho. Without some minimal level of cooperation, even for limited, specific reasons, how do we expect to get anyone safely out of Kabul, ever? It isn't in the Taliban's interest to alienate the U.S. on the way out by blowing up large numbers of US troops. There's no way Biden is going back in with large numbers of troops but there will surely be targeted strikes by special forces. There is no appetite for getting ensnared again.

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6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The Taliban is the authority with ostensible control of the area outside of the airport. That control isn't absolute. It's haphazard and porous. There is no way to get people to the airport without passing through territory they control tho. Without some minimal level of cooperation, even for limited, specific reasons, how do we expect to get anyone safely out of Kabul, ever? It isn't in the Taliban's interest to alienate the U.S. on the way out by blowing up large numbers of US troops. There's no way Biden is going back in with large numbers of troops but there will surely be targeted strikes by special forces. There is no appetite for getting ensnared again.

The way to not need Taliban cooperation is to get everyone out before the Taliban takes over. 

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3 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

The way to not need Taliban cooperation is to get everyone out before the Taliban takes over. 

True but the failure to do that is four administrations in the making. As soon as the deadline was established for withdrawal last year, the clock started ticking.

Edited by Sneezyone
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1 minute ago, lauraw4321 said:

The way to not need Taliban cooperation is to get everyone out before the Taliban takes over. 

I'm not sure that was possible after the previous administration drew troops down so low on their way out. Unless the current administration sent in more troops. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!

Also, I'm a bit confused about personal responsibility. As I understand it the State Department first contacted Americans in April telling them to get out, and then again in late June. So why were there still so many there?? Is it the government's responsibility that people didn't heed the advice to leave in a timely manner?

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4 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

The way to not need Taliban cooperation is to get everyone out before the Taliban takes over. 

That doesn't make sense. It's just saying, "Get everyone out while at the same time keeping enough people there to keep everyone safe." -- it's a logical impossibility. The result of "people leaving" is there are fewer and fewer "people there". There is no rate of transfer where the people are just gone all at once.

There is always a tipping point where some people are still there, but not enough people to ensure their own security. There was always going to be a span of time between beginning to lose control to the Taliban and the last stages of troop withdrawal.

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8 minutes ago, bolt. said:

That doesn't make sense. It's just saying, "Get everyone out while at the same time keeping enough people there to keep everyone safe." -- it's a logical impossibility. The result of "people leaving" is there are fewer and fewer "people there". There is no rate of transfer where the people are just gone all at once.

There is always a tipping point where some people are still there, but not enough people to ensure their own security. There was always going to be a span of time between beginning to lose control to the Taliban and the last stages of troop withdrawal.

Agree with this too. This isn't what I was referring to tho. We had YEARS to do something about the complicated and/or stalled visa process for local allies before the final withdrawal was announced.

 

12 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Also, I'm a bit confused about personal responsibility. As I understand it the State Department first contacted Americans in April telling them to get out, and then again in late June. So why were there still so many there?? Is it the government's responsibility that people didn't heed the advice to leave in a timely manner?

Definitely this. They knew personal security could not be guaranteed and, in some cases, went over there during the drawdown. STOOPID. STOOPID. STOOPID. The responsibility to pull them back out shouldn't have been on our troops to begin with. That's a separate issue from local allies whose visas were slow walked or delayed/denied.

Edited by Sneezyone
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There is a report about a green card holder and his wife who went to visit his parents this august with their American baby in Afghanistan and now can’t return. It is just so sad- why go there now? 

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52 minutes ago, bolt. said:

That doesn't make sense. It's just saying, "Get everyone out while at the same time keeping enough people there to keep everyone safe." -- it's a logical impossibility. The result of "people leaving" is there are fewer and fewer "people there". There is no rate of transfer where the people are just gone all at once.

There is always a tipping point where some people are still there, but not enough people to ensure their own security. There was always going to be a span of time between beginning to lose control to the Taliban and the last stages of troop withdrawal.

Because there is a difference between “people” and military.

You get the non-military out first. And you keep your easiest to defend base open until then end. And then, you exit from a well-defended base with all the fire power needed to escape safely. 
 

We have all the men and equipment and talent to execute this, any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The fact that it didn’t happen is the difference between boot and suits.

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1 hour ago, lauraw4321 said:

I agree. Biden saying “we’ll hunt you down”. I mean it sounds just like Bush after 9/11. Are we going to start over now?  All of those soldiers and civilians were just sitting ducks today for a terrorist attack. It’s completely botched. Botched doesn’t come close, actually. 

I thought the same thing.

So sad that the exit is happening this way...

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25 minutes ago, pinball said:

Because there is a difference between “people” and military.

You get the non-military out first. And you keep your easiest to defend base open until then end. And then, you exit from a well-defended base with all the fire power needed to escape safely. 
 

We have all the men and equipment and talent to execute this, any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The fact that it didn’t happen is the difference between boot and suits.

This. Seems pretty clear to me. 

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6 hours ago, Plum said:

This is all so very heartbreaking, frustrating, depressing, infuriating. 😭💔

It's really sad. I'm not going to downplay it. It's devastating for their families. 

But the price for STAYING for people in the US was going to be much higher. There would have been fighting again. People would have been killed. 

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24 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's really sad. I'm not going to downplay it. It's devastating for their families. 

But the price for STAYING for people in the US was going to be much higher. There would have been fighting again. People would have been killed. 

There were many military family organizations that contacted me early this year advocating for this withdrawal/to maintain the previous administration’s timeline. I wasn’t convinced but they were. I even sent an email to the leadership at the Secure Families Initiative explaining my discomfort and got a reply that they understood the concerns but felt it was the right approach.

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1 hour ago, Plum said:

Yes we need to be out. I object to how it was done. Why does that have to be clarified? I posted about getting Afghani translators out way back in the CRT thread. The government had years and years to process some of these visas. This is humanitarian crisis and complete failure on the Biden Admin. We absolutely know what happens if we don’t follow through with our promises and get these people out.

This is a landlocked country. Everyone must be flown out. Knowing the Taliban is coming as the military pulled out they should have taken the translators and their families with them, processed or not, and then sorted it out later. The military knows who they worked with. These people are stranded in the middle of the country forced to face death, keep their papers safe but hidden just in case, survive Taliban checkpoints and will ultimately be left behind. Bureaucracy killed these people.

Now we have civilians standing in sewage water for days trying to get out. What is that doing to their skin? To their immune system? 

 

This is a no politics thread but it must be pointed out that the Biden Administration is eight months old and took over with a preexisting withdrawal deadline of 5/31. The deadline was extended to 8/31 and there was very little planning done for an orderly withdrawal, much as there was very little planning for COVID vaccine distribution. We KNOW there was zero effort on the part of the previous admin to set the current one up for success. OF COURSE more/better planning could/should have been done! The VISA holdups didn’t get Congressional action until June/July, for cripes sake, but lets not rewrite history by suggesting there was any national willingness to accept thousands of unvetted Muslim refugees “and sort things out later” or that the delays in processing ally visas weren’t deliberate and intentional. Penniless refugees from ‘shithole’ countries weren’t welcome. Pretending to care about the plight of these refugees now, when the ugly reality of our war withdrawal is televised, isn’t endearing. As the young folks say, where was all this energy 18 months ago when the withdrawal decision was announced? Americans supported the original accelerated timeline.

Edited by Sneezyone
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59 minutes ago, Plum said:

Yes we need to be out. I object to how it was done. Why does that have to be clarified? I posted about getting Afghani translators out way back in the CRT thread. The government had years and years to process some of these visas. This is humanitarian crisis and complete failure on the Biden Admin. We absolutely know what happens if we don’t follow through with our promises and get these people out.

This is a landlocked country. Everyone must be flown out. Knowing the Taliban is coming as the military pulled out they should have taken the translators and their families with them, processed or not, and then sorted it out later. The military knows who they worked with. These people are stranded in the middle of the country forced to face death, keep their papers safe but hidden just in case, survive Taliban checkpoints and will ultimately be left behind. Bureaucracy killed these people.

Now we have civilians standing in sewage water for days trying to get out. What is that doing to their skin? To their immune system? 

 

I agree that the translators and their immediate families should have been gotten out months ago. Unfortunately, we are now taking out masses people to be vetted by the same group that orchestrated this mess to begin with. 

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7 minutes ago, Plum said:


Comments like “Pretending to care” is why I have you blocked. 

Trying to decide between “sophomoric” and “mean girls” to characterize this “I have you blocked!” post. I think I’ll go with both. 
 

And no way this thread wouldn’t turn political. It belongs on the politics board, not the main board.

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