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Mask studies please


TexasProud
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6 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Because apparantly the 5 million times it was said over the past 18 months you missed it...masks work because they catch droplets the virus is riding on - which are significantly bigger than the virus itself and bigger than a perfume molecule, for that matter. They also can catch some of the smaller particles of aerosolized virus, because although the virus is small enough to fit through the weave of the mask it isn't traveling in a straight line but bouncing al over and it can't "steer" so lots will run into the mask fibers and miss the "holes". PLUS the material used in many many many masks has an  electrostatic charge which attracts the virus to the fibers and catches it. 

Therefore, a significant amount of the virus particles that would otherwise go into the air will be trapped by the mask. That is how masks prevent disease - by keeping the mask wearer from spewing so much virus into the air. That doesn't mean it traps ALL the virus, but it takes a certain amount of viral load to be infected, so reducing how much is in the air helps prevent disease. 

Yes, but there was a study on the CDC website that said that the cloth masks can aerosol the large droplets, making them more contagious. 

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13 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Yes, but there was a study on the CDC website that said that the cloth masks can aerosol the large droplets, making them more contagious. 

Did you see this study yourself? Cause I don't see it. 

I do remember one video talking about how a particular type of material might break up the particles more but don't believe it was an actual scientific research thing, or on the CDC website. 

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Here's another one that shows a higher rate in schools without mask mandates: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7012e2.htm

(caveat with both this and the other one I posted that showed the same thing; the numbers are self reported and only a small percentage of schools chose to report data. I would guess that means that mask requirements make a much bigger difference even than the significant difference these studies show...because I would think that if you choose NOT to take preventative measures like mask mandates, and your numbers are terrible, you're probably not going to want to shout it from the rooftops. But, at any rate, significantly higher incidence rates in both studies in schools without mask mandates).

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1 hour ago, Janeway said:

Yes, but there was a study on the CDC website that said that the cloth masks can aerosol the large droplets, making them more contagious. 

That was a study that wasn’t even designed to test which kind of masks worked better. It was a study to test a method for testing masks. They had one mask, a single layer polyester gaiter that had an unexpected result. (I don’t think people should be trying to have a single layer gaiter pass has a mask anyway, but that’s not the point.) It has not been replicated by anyone else. Multiple, multiple statements have been put out explaining that the study does not say what many people are trying to claim it says.

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Note that I wear KN95s and have been for months. That said, the Danish masking study did not find a significant difference in masked vs unmasked https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33205991/ 

and there are plenty of studies and metaanalyses that indicate that mask-wearing is not very effective.  Here is a webpage that has colllected many of them in one place. (You may not care for the site, but it includes links to studies.)  https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/47-studies-confirm-inefectiveness-of-masks-for-covid-and-32-more-confirm-their-negative-health-effects/ 

I'm doing what I can on the premise that at least I tried. Yesterday and today I found I was surprised at what a tightly-fitted flat-fold KN95 filtered out: gasoline fumes, raw onion fumes, and nebulized essential oils.  (I was able to smell each when I lifted the edges of the mask off my face but not with it in place.)

 

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2 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

Note that I wear KN95s and have been for months. That said, the Danish masking study did not find a significant difference in masked vs unmasked https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33205991/ 

and there are plenty of studies and metaanalyses that indicate that mask-wearing is not very effective.  Here is a webpage that has colllected many of them in one place. (You may not care for the site, but it includes links to studies.)  https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/47-studies-confirm-inefectiveness-of-masks-for-covid-and-32-more-confirm-their-negative-health-effects/ 

I'm doing what I can on the premise that at least I tried. Yesterday and today I found I was surprised at what a tightly-fitted flat-fold KN95 filtered out: gasoline fumes, raw onion fumes, and nebulized essential oils.  (I was able to smell each when I lifted the edges of the mask off my face but not with it in place.)

 

Technically, the Danish study is only about whether a mask protects YOU, not others, right?

Edited by Not_a_Number
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11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Technically, the Danish study is only about whether a mask protects YOU, not others, right?

yeah, it specifically studied settings where mask use was not common, so it really says nothing about universal masking. If anything, it's a blow to the argument I hear people against school mask mandates use: YOUR kid can wear a mask if they want to! 

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17 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

Note that I wear KN95s and have been for months. That said, the Danish masking study did not find a significant difference in masked vs unmasked https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33205991/ 

and there are plenty of studies and metaanalyses that indicate that mask-wearing is not very effective.  Here is a webpage that has colllected many of them in one place. (You may not care for the site, but it includes links to studies.)  https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/47-studies-confirm-inefectiveness-of-masks-for-covid-and-32-more-confirm-their-negative-health-effects/ 

I'm doing what I can on the premise that at least I tried. Yesterday and today I found I was surprised at what a tightly-fitted flat-fold KN95 filtered out: gasoline fumes, raw onion fumes, and nebulized essential oils.  (I was able to smell each when I lifted the edges of the mask off my face but not with it in place.)

 

Scanning through those studies, it seems like all or the vast majority of the real world studies are also looking at how much a cloth or surgical mask protects the wearer; not looking at universal masking or at how masking protects other people. I think most people agree that, with lower quality masks, everyone needs to be wearing them for them to be effective, and they do less to protect the wearer than other people. (That's certainly why my husband wears a mask with a good filter at school). 

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From the Danish study--what does this mean? 

Quote

Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection.

CIs...confidence intervals? So that sounds like they're saying masks for the wearer might, in fact, be moderately effective even when few other people are wearing masks? ETA--I missed that the second number says increase. that makes more sense...but still, the conclusion seems to be that they didn't really learn anything about whether masks reduce infection for the wearer. Maybe or maybe not? 

Edited by kokotg
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3 minutes ago, kokotg said:

From the Danish study--what does this mean? 

CIs...confidence intervals? So that sounds like they're saying masks for the wearer might, in fact, be moderately effective even when few other people are wearing masks?

They are saying they can’t tell one way or another from the amount of data. The data is compatible with both mild effectiveness and being the opposite of effective.

ETA: there WAS slightly less COVID in the masked group. So the evidence leans mildly towards a bit of effectiveness.

Edited by Not_a_Number
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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

They are saying they can’t tell one way or another from the amount of data. The data is compatible with both mild effectiveness and being the opposite of effective.

see my edit: I misread the part I quoted at first. 

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20 minutes ago, kokotg said:

yeah, it specifically studied settings where mask use was not common, so it really says nothing about universal masking. If anything, it's a blow to the argument I hear people against school mask mandates use: YOUR kid can wear a mask if they want to! 

Well, the idea that masks will be able to protect kids from each other is really questionable, because kids are kids--there is no way good mask compliance is a thing with kids.  What masks might contain would be large droplets, and that begs the question: why are they at school if they are coughing or sneezing? 

Hypothetically, if I had kids in school I'd prioritize having them wear the most comfortable masks we could find for them, but I suspect real prevention is a pipe dream.    

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Just now, Halftime Hope said:

Well, the idea that masks will be able to protect kids from each other is really questionable, because kids are kids--there is no way good mask compliance is a thing with kids.  What masks might contain would be large droplets, and that begs the question: why are they at school if they are coughing or sneezing? 

Hypothetically, if I had kids in school I'd prioritize having them wear the most comfortable masks we could find for them, but I suspect real prevention is a pipe dream.    

My kids have good mask compliance, as do lots of kids we hang out with. Dunno if it’d last 8 hours, but it’d definitely drive the odds of spreading down.

I don’t think masks only contain large droplets, do they?

 

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1 minute ago, Halftime Hope said:

Well, the idea that masks will be able to protect kids from each other is really questionable, because kids are kids--there is no way good mask compliance is a thing with kids.  What masks might contain would be large droplets, and that begs the question: why are they at school if they are coughing or sneezing? 

Hypothetically, if I had kids in school I'd prioritize having them wear the most comfortable masks we could find for them, but I suspect real prevention is a pipe dream.    

But the studies I've seen DO show lower numbers in schools with mask mandates, despite the difficulties with enforcement/compliance. I've also watched numbers carefully in counties near me with and without mask mandates, and the difference is stark. I'm interested/terrified to see if it holds up this year with Delta, but last year everywhere I could find evidence, mask mandates made a HUGE difference--bigger than I expected at the beginning of the year.

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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

My kids have good mask compliance, as do lots of kids we hang out with. Dunno if it’d last 8 hours, but it’d definitely drive the odds of spreading down.

 

 

And, yeah, kids seem to get how to wear a mask correctly better than the average grown-up, based on my observations 😂

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21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

My kids have good mask compliance, as do lots of kids we hang out with. Dunno if it’d last 8 hours, but it’d definitely drive the odds of spreading down.

I don’t think masks only contain large droplets, do they?

 

I have yet to see a respirator mask on a kid. Most of what I see them wearing are masks with a couple of layers of cotton.  I don't think those are good for anything that is small like bacteria or viruses. If we are stopping droplet spread, they may be fractionally helpful. If we are trying to stop aerosolized virus, or airborne virus, not so much.  The only reason respirators catch anything small is due to electrostatic trapping, not to pore size. 

Having "good compliance" on a child won't do much good for what flows around the edges of the mask every time they breath for anything, including viruses, that isn't contained in a droplet. 

 If we are to believe the CDC about Delta, we're talking about a lot of aerosol/airborne for asymptomatic spread.  

Edited by Halftime Hope
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4 minutes ago, kokotg said:

And, yeah, kids seem to get how to wear a mask correctly better than the average grown-up, based on my observations 😂

Yep, about once a week, I have a "what the hay?!?" moment when I see a person being ridiculous: like, why bother?!?

People at my workplace, with few exceptions, are quite good about caring for others through masking. 

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10 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

I have yet to see a respirator mask on a kid. Most of what I see them wearing are masks with a couple of layers of cotton.  I don't think those are good for anything that is small like bascteria or viruses. If we are stopping droplet spread, they may be fractionally helpful. If we are trying to stop aerosolized virus, or airborne virus, not so much.  The only reason respirators catch anything small is due to electrostatic trapping, not to pore size. 

Having "good compliance" on a child won't do much good for what flows around the edges of the mask every time they breath for anything, including viruses, that isn't contained in a droplet. 

 If we are to believe the CDC about Delta, we're talking about a lot of aerosol/airborne for asymptomatic spread.  

Well, if both kids are wearing a mask, that's double the layers. At that point, assuming the pores in the material don't all line up, and knowing that particles don't travel in a straight line nor can they steer around the threads, you are catching a decent amount. And droplets are not just when sneezing/coughing - and even then,that's a good thing in itself. 

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29 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

I have yet to see a respirator mask on a kid. Most of what I see them wearing are masks with a couple of layers of cotton.  I don't think those are good for anything that is small like bacteria or viruses. If we are stopping droplet spread, they may be fractionally helpful. If we are trying to stop aerosolized virus, or airborne virus, not so much.  The only reason respirators catch anything small is due to electrostatic trapping, not to pore size. 

Having "good compliance" on a child won't do much good for what flows around the edges of the mask every time they breath for anything, including viruses, that isn't contained in a droplet. 

 If we are to believe the CDC about Delta, we're talking about a lot of aerosol/airborne for asymptomatic spread.  

We have Happy Masks, which do have a filter. Yes, things do go around the sides, but it’s like 20% or less. It’s not all or nothing.

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10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

We have Happy Masks, which do have a filter. Yes, things do go around the sides, but it’s like 20% or less. It’s not all or nothing.

Right. Better is better. 

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Real life study: not a single infection originating from classes at my campus all academic year. Masks were required and enforced.

All infections stemmed from leisure activities where masking was not enforced. Good enough for me. 

Eta: That's several thousand participants over the course of two 15 week semesters.

Edited by regentrude
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1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Real life study: not a single infection originating from classes at my campus all academic year. Masks were required and enforced.

All infections stemmed from leisure activities where masking was not enforced. Good enough for me. 

Same.

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46 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

I have yet to see a respirator mask on a kid. Most of what I see them wearing are masks with a couple of layers of cotton.  I don't think those are good for anything that is small like bacteria or viruses. If we are stopping droplet spread, they may be fractionally helpful. If we are trying to stop aerosolized virus, or airborne virus, not so much.  The only reason respirators catch anything small is due to electrostatic trapping, not to pore size. 

Having "good compliance" on a child won't do much good for what flows around the edges of the mask every time they breath for anything, including viruses, that isn't contained in a droplet. 

 If we are to believe the CDC about Delta, we're talking about a lot of aerosol/airborne for asymptomatic spread.  

I don't know how it holds up with Delta, but while the original covid virus is definitely spread by aerosols, even health care facilities used only droplet precautions for most circumstances, and while covid is definitely spread by aerosols, droplet precautions seem to make a huge, huge difference.  Droplet precautions, in fact, were sufficient for most circumstances even in hospitals to prevent spread.  Not perfect, at all, but the evidence was pretty compelling that thinks like surgical masks made a huge difference.  I was struck by the covid positive hairdresser who didn't infect anyone other than the other hairdresser, who was the only person she was unmasked around.  

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8 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

That's what my allergist said, and why she raised my dosages. Build up of mucus makes it easier for any infectious agent that prefers that part of the system to grow. So, the goal has been to keep symptoms very, very minimal. Plus, while masks help reduce allergens, being congested AND masking would be miserable. 

That is interesting because my understanding and experience was the opposite.  Mucus is designed to catch and help us move the bad stuff out.  The only years I’ve ever caught respiratory bugs are my low allergy years without a lot of congestion.

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17 minutes ago, Sdel said:

That is interesting because my understanding and experience was the opposite.  Mucus is designed to catch and help us move the bad stuff out.  The only years I’ve ever caught respiratory bugs are my low allergy years without a lot of congestion.

The thickened mucous of congestion is too thick to move well - hence the congestion. So it stagnates, allowing stuff to grow (that's how you get secondary bacterial infections). 

Actually, thinking on this, the best approach may be to add in some mucinext to thin the mucous so it can drain as it is intended too. 

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5 hours ago, Janeway said:

Yes, but there was a study on the CDC website that said that the cloth masks can aerosol the large droplets, making them more contagious. 

You've forgotten the main rule: do not contradict the collective. We are the CDC. Assimilate.

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1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

You've forgotten the main rule: do not contradict the collective. We are the CDC. Assimilate.

I have no clue what this is supposed to mean, especially since there IS no such study. As people already noted above, the only study that vaguely resembles this one was the one about gaiters, and it certainly didn't assert anything of the sort about all masks -- in fact, every other kind of mask in that study performed much better than no mask. 

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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

The thickened mucous of congestion is too thick to move well - hence the congestion. So it stagnates, allowing stuff to grow (that's how you get secondary bacterial infections). 

Actually, thinking on this, the best approach may be to add in some mucinext to thin the mucous so it can drain as it is intended too. 

Mucinex is part of my protocol for that reason, as well as H1 and H2 blockers. Real Sudafed would work, too, but makes my heart race.

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5 hours ago, kokotg said:

But the studies I've seen DO show lower numbers in schools with mask mandates, despite the difficulties with enforcement/compliance. I've also watched numbers carefully in counties near me with and without mask mandates, and the difference is stark. I'm interested/terrified to see if it holds up this year with Delta, but last year everywhere I could find evidence, mask mandates made a HUGE difference--bigger than I expected at the beginning of the year.

All the epidemiologists I read say the same. Universal masking in schools is expected to make a significant difference in how we get through this Delta wave as schools start. They have pretty depressing predictions of what the pediatric ICU bed situation will be without masking, especially for those too young to be vaccinated. 

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9 minutes ago, Plum said:

This was taken during lunch hour in the first week at my local high school. 4000 students at a school built for 3000 and only 2 lunch hours. Good thing they have masks. 🤷🏻‍♀️😉
 

0F33D51E-C223-49CD-BD27-2FB7111C9629.jpeg

It’s terrible. I agree. Masks do not solve this issue.

But without masks, it’d be even worse 😕 .

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4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It’s terrible. I agree. Masks do not solve this issue.

But without masks, it’d be even worse 😕 .

But...they can't mask and eat lunch. so all those kids are going to take their masks off. 

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Yes, I don't get it. Now, as I've said before, the people in my circle are all vaccinated, but other than that are taking no precautions. It is hitting so close to home. It is everywhere. In prayer requests, just about everyone had someone who had died or was in the hospital. ( I have no clue what vaccine status was for these people.) My hairdresser's husband is now on a vent. Yet, my husband and I were the only ones masked. There was a back to school dinner for youth. All schools and activities are going on as normal.  I just don't understand. Even if we are vaccinated, we need to be masking now. We need to avoid big functions.  Yet, I mean, if the youth are having normal football/cheer practices, band practices, etc., then I guess it would just be a drop in the bucket.

In some ways I understand. The last 18 months have been so strange. The kids wanted to go to camp and other things and for life to be normal. I do get that. I mean, think about the 10th graders. Most of their high school career this pandemic has been in the forefront. But it is like we are full speed ahead. I think our ICU's will be out of room by the end of this week. Kids start school this week.  I. just. have. no. words.

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46 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, I don't get it. Now, as I've said before, the people in my circle are all vaccinated, but other than that are taking no precautions. It is hitting so close to home. It is everywhere. In prayer requests, just about everyone had someone who had died or was in the hospital. ( I have no clue what vaccine status was for these people.) My hairdresser's husband is now on a vent. Yet, my husband and I were the only ones masked. There was a back to school dinner for youth. All schools and activities are going on as normal.  I just don't understand. Even if we are vaccinated, we need to be masking now. We need to avoid big functions.  Yet, I mean, if the youth are having normal football/cheer practices, band practices, etc., then I guess it would just be a drop in the bucket.

In some ways I understand. The last 18 months have been so strange. The kids wanted to go to camp and other things and for life to be normal. I do get that. I mean, think about the 10th graders. Most of their high school career this pandemic has been in the forefront. But it is like we are full speed ahead. I think our ICU's will be out of room by the end of this week. Kids start school this week.  I. just. have. no. words.

I told this story on another thread but my 11yodd told a group of ladies at church yesterday that she wanted to get the vaccine on the day she turns 12 which is early next month.  One lady clucked her tongue and informed my dd (and of course, me)  that her son is not getting his kids vaccinated.  The conversation then turned to masking, etc.  which she obviously disapproved of with a lot of sighing and lots of "its so hard to know what to believe".  Then she said, "I just want this to be over".  Of course, she's ignoring or not realizing that the only way for 'this to be over' is to stop the virus from spreading and she's unwilling to mask or do any social distancing.  I'm fairly sure she was vaccinated but she says that only old people need to be vaccinated.

My dh works at a Christian college who has decided to take no Covid precautions this year.  As part of their first week of school, they usually gather all freshman into a very small area on campus and take an aerial picture.  Last year that didn't happen, but this year . . . the picture is all over facebook.  I knew in my head they were not taking precautions but that picture was just an amazing disregard for what is happening.  Over 1000 young people, shoulder to shoulder, face to face, no masks in sight.  We're expecting the semester to be a disaster.  They have taken down their Covid dashboard that they had last year, so we won't be able to track what is going on as directly as last year.  

But at church and out and about, I'm the one getting the rolled eyes because I'm wearing a mask.  It is hard to understand.

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1 minute ago, Tenaj said:

I told this story on another thread but my 11yodd told a group of ladies at church yesterday that she wanted to get the vaccine on the day she turns 12 which is early next month.  One lady clucked her tongue and informed my dd (and of course, me)  that her son is not getting his kids vaccinated.  The conversation then turned to masking, etc.  which she obviously disapproved of with a lot of sighing and lots of "its so hard to know what to believe".  Then she said, "I just want this to be over".  Of course, she's ignoring or not realizing that the only way for 'this to be over' is to stop the virus from spreading and she's unwilling to mask or do any social distancing.  I'm fairly sure she was vaccinated but she says that only old people need to be vaccinated.

My dh works at a Christian college who has decided to take no Covid precautions this year.  As part of their first week of school, they usually gather all freshman into a very small area on campus and take an aerial picture.  Last year that didn't happen, but this year . . . the picture is all over facebook.  I knew in my head they were not taking precautions but that picture was just an amazing disregard for what is happening.  Over 1000 young people, shoulder to shoulder, face to face, no masks in sight.  We're expecting the semester to be a disaster.  They have taken down their Covid dashboard that they had last year, so we won't be able to track what is going on as directly as last year.  

But at church and out and about, I'm the one getting the rolled eyes because I'm wearing a mask.  It is hard to understand.

Yeah, in my church, though, they might cluck and say...well, they should have been vaccinated..  ( Someone even asked my hairdresser if they had been vaccinated. Very poor question at this point IMO) It feels like they think being vaccinated solves everything.  Now, that said, I am unsure how many of our youth are vaccinated.  They just think it won't affect them more than giving them a bad cold. My social circle isn't anti-vax, nor are they anti-mask. They would put one on if required and politely obey. They just don't at church. 

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2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, I don't get it. Now, as I've said before, the people in my circle are all vaccinated, but other than that are taking no precautions. It is hitting so close to home. It is everywhere. In prayer requests, just about everyone had someone who had died or was in the hospital. ( I have no clue what vaccine status was for these people.) My hairdresser's husband is now on a vent. Yet, my husband and I were the only ones masked. There was a back to school dinner for youth. All schools and activities are going on as normal.  I just don't understand. Even if we are vaccinated, we need to be masking now. We need to avoid big functions.  Yet, I mean, if the youth are having normal football/cheer practices, band practices, etc., then I guess it would just be a drop in the bucket.

In some ways I understand. The last 18 months have been so strange. The kids wanted to go to camp and other things and for life to be normal. I do get that. I mean, think about the 10th graders. Most of their high school career this pandemic has been in the forefront. But it is like we are full speed ahead. I think our ICU's will be out of room by the end of this week. Kids start school this week.  I. just. have. no. words.

Oh my goodness, same! I mean, I will say my church the priests are vaccinated, as are the childcare people, and they require volunteers in Sunday School to be vaccinated - but masks are optional, the priests only mask when handing out communion (with gloves on which is silly anyway), they are back to having coffee hour indoors, they are having a big back to school breakfast for all the kids (unmasked, eating closely to gether, with kids to young to be vaccinated), etc. Because we hope to move across town I was looking at other church websites and again, masks optional, kids all together, indoor restaurant gatherings for groups, etc etc. While we are at around 20% positivity, overwhelmed hospitals, in the news daily for how many cases we have. WHAT THE HECK?!?!?! Is it too much to ask leaders to actual lead? A shepherds job is to protect his flock! Getting people of unknown vaccination status together indoors to share food is NOT how you protect your flock!

And that's on top of my facebook feed showing people eating indoors, etc etc. 

 

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And I just worry about a friend who is an elementary teacher, but she also works with youth. She has a chronic blood issue. Her mom is battling ovarian cancer. My friend and her mom are vaccinated, but they don't mask.   I mean they are not anti-mask. They mask if it is required. But I am looking at this Delta variant and so worried.

 

Honestly, I have wonder if it will be like the worship wars we had a decade ago at our church. Basically, they ended with a generation died/ the ones left were the moderate/reasonable ones, and the young my way or the highway ones left.  Basically, the anti-vax will be killed off. Unfortunately, they will take a lot of the innocent with them. But I feel like it won't end until that happens.  As someone mentioned, what chance does the 3rd world ( or majority world as I call them) have??????

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