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10 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

A shame we have to use a disease model to do it. 

I'm with you.

10 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

feeling depressed and Having Depression

I've known multiple people to be diagnosed with clinical depression (ie. they clicked all the boxes for sleep, behavior, physical patterns) who would not have described themselves as depressed (spiritually). I think the language and the assumptions do such a disservice. We've turned it into this personal problem, spiritual problem, feeling kind of thing (same for anxiety), and the vernacular use doesn't even match up with the actual physical manifestations and how it is diagnosed.

So I told my pastor I was having trouble with anxiety (at the start of covid) and he took that to mean I had a SPIRITUAL PROBLEM. And I'm realizing now we just have this severe language gap. You can have anxiety (technically) without feeling "worried" and you can have clinical depression without being "depressed."

10 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Same with anxiety. It's just a mismatch between brain and environment. Who's to say the brain is ill - why not the environment? Maybe nothing is ill - just ill-suited. 

This part of your argument I don't get. The anxiety I get manifests physically, is clinical, is not an environmental problem and is not a spiritual/worry problem. Well it's environmental to the extent that environment/situations make it WORSE, but it's still there. It shows up as agitation, indecision, recursive thinking, etc. etc. I finally found the gene that explains most of it (easily treatable with P5P) and I think I found the gene explaining the rest (something with sodium channels) but don't know how to treat it as the proposed treatment seems overkill given how sporadic it is. 

So no, to me of all things anxiety is the one I'm most pissy about having chemical origins as it clearly does. For my ds his homozygous zinc transporter gene defect is a piece. I finally got him on the right zinc dose and he's a new child. Like you would not BELIEVE how stable his anxiety is. Zinc. And how many doctors are talking zinc transporters for anxiety? Big name hospital pdoc wanted to put my ds hot fast on prozac. Now he's finally stable with zinc. It is just BARBARIC how psychiatry is practiced.

Adding: With my ds, we do things to *reduce* stress and hence anxiety, but we cannot completely *resolve* his anxiety because it's chemical. It's not our fault and it creates a lot of conflict if you go down that path. Environment can make it worse but he is who he is. You get peace when you accept who you are or who the person is and work with it.

Edited by PeterPan
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I'd say, both based on twin studies and my own personal observations and experiences, that there is a strong genetic component to many mental illnesses. Perhaps environment triggers genetic suspectible people, to a lesser or greater extent depending on the genetics involved.  (I am not saying trauma can't independtly cause issues as well.)

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19 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

What we see, in the difference between sometimes feeling depressed and Having Depression is a difference in effect on function. Is one a disease and the other a natural transient state? Does it help to conceptualize it this way? Idk. 

Same with anxiety. It's just a mismatch between brain and environment. Who's to say the brain is ill - why not the environment? Maybe nothing is ill - just ill-suited. 

For me, societal “awareness” seems like a bit of a double edged sword. With all the openness, I see people thinking their young children have anxiety disorders and trauma caused by fire drills. And people who think I mean I’m “an anxious person” when I mean I SUFFER from anxiety. Like, giant hospital bills from thinking I might be dying, or totally shutting down because… well, sometimes I don’t know the trigger.

I don’t know how to accurately describe the specific differences, but I am able to be anxious in ways that aren’t my anxiety disorder, depressed in ways that aren’t my periods of clinical depression, and unable to focus in ways that aren’t my ADHD, and I can almost always tell the difference.   
Even when I think I might be dying, I tell the ER it’s probably just anxiety. (And that’s a terrible way to try to make sure you’re not actually dying!)

I can get on board with a spectrum theory, but there’s still a line somewhere in my head. 

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12 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

With all the openness, I see people thinking their young children have anxiety disorders and trauma caused by fire drills.

Well that's society and the broadening definition of trauma, sigh. https://www.apa.org/topics/trauma  Look how broad and emotion (not body) focused the APA makes it. And then look at Levine's definition of "unresolved autonomic nervous system response" https://lakesidelink.com/blog/trauma-and-trauma-informed-care/peter-levines-approach-to-healing-trauma/#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20leading%20ambassadors,trauma%20heal%20is%20Peter%20Levine.&text=She%20begins%20by%20defining%20trauma,not%20necessarily%20the%20event%20itself. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I SUFFER from anxiety.

Oh that's funny, because I was going to say the opposite, that I've generally been oblivious to my issues, haha. 

17 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I tell the ER

I'm a little befuddled here. Your body or symptoms are landing you in the ER? What's your plan or what do you want to do about it?

Not to pry, but this sounds like a situation where genetics could turn up explanations.

I'm with you that emotions of depression or anxiety (how you spiritually view life or the world or your purpose or whatever) don't necessarily match what your body is doing. 

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5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm a little befuddled here. Your body or symptoms are landing you in the ER? What's your plan or what do you want to do about it?

That’s a terrific question I’d like answered, lol.

What feels like a racing heart, difficulty breathing, faintness, dizziness, nausea, trouble communicating, and whatever odds and ends might get thrown in there randomly don’t show up on any of the medical tests and measurements. Still feels like dying.

Therapists have told me to reduce stress. Primaries have told me I function too well to prescribe better meds. Hydroxywhatever makes me dysfunctional for half a day.  Psychiatrists are few and booked indefinitely.  🤷‍♀️ 

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

I'm with you.

I've known multiple people to be diagnosed with clinical depression (ie. they clicked all the boxes for sleep, behavior, physical patterns) who would not have described themselves as depressed (spiritually). I think the language and the assumptions do such a disservice. We've turned it into this personal problem, spiritual problem, feeling kind of thing (same for anxiety), and the vernacular use doesn't even match up with the actual physical manifestations and how it is diagnosed.

So I told my pastor I was having trouble with anxiety (at the start of covid) and he took that to mean I had a SPIRITUAL PROBLEM. And I'm realizing now we just have this severe language gap. You can have anxiety (technically) without feeling "worried" and you can have clinical depression without being "depressed."

This part of your argument I don't get. The anxiety I get manifests physically, is clinical, is not an environmental problem and is not a spiritual/worry problem. Well it's environmental to the extent that environment/situations make it WORSE, but it's still there. It shows up as agitation, indecision, recursive thinking, etc. etc. I finally found the gene that explains most of it (easily treatable with P5P) and I think I found the gene explaining the rest (something with sodium channels) but don't know how to treat it as the proposed treatment seems overkill given how sporadic it is. 

So no, to me of all things anxiety is the one I'm most pissy about having chemical origins as it clearly does. For my ds his homozygous zinc transporter gene defect is a piece. I finally got him on the right zinc dose and he's a new child. Like you would not BELIEVE how stable his anxiety is. Zinc. And how many doctors are talking zinc transporters for anxiety? Big name hospital pdoc wanted to put my ds hot fast on prozac. Now he's finally stable with zinc. It is just BARBARIC how psychiatry is practiced.

Adding: With my ds, we do things to *reduce* stress and hence anxiety, but we cannot completely *resolve* his anxiety because it's chemical. It's not our fault and it creates a lot of conflict if you go down that path. Environment can make it worse but he is who he is. You get peace when you accept who you are or who the person is and work with it.

I have an anxiety diagnosis too. Strong genetic component. 

I figure hyper vigilance used to keep the tribe alive. Our brains and their 'anxiety' had a purpose. Now, not so much. Anxiety is like an appendix, maybe pretty useless. Stick us back in sabre tooth tiger time, we'd be doing fine 🙂 

Most of my musings come from seeing how the medical model both helps and harms my DD, who has several mental health related diagnoses. 

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41 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

For me, societal “awareness” seems like a bit of a double edged sword. With all the openness, I see people thinking their young children have anxiety disorders and trauma caused by fire drills. And people who think I mean I’m “an anxious person” when I mean I SUFFER from anxiety. Like, giant hospital bills from thinking I might be dying, or totally shutting down because… well, sometimes I don’t know the trigger.

I don’t know how to accurately describe the specific differences, but I am able to be anxious in ways that aren’t my anxiety disorder, depressed in ways that aren’t my periods of clinical depression, and unable to focus in ways that aren’t my ADHD, and I can almost always tell the difference.   
Even when I think I might be dying, I tell the ER it’s probably just anxiety. (And that’s a terrible way to try to make sure you’re not actually dying!)

I can get on board with a spectrum theory, but there’s still a line somewhere in my head. 

My health anxiety was like this. Clearly defined - a 'line' - went away with meds immediately. Placebo? Chemistry? Idk. 

Generalised anxiety more of a learned response, I think, than anything broken in my brain. 

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50 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

That’s a terrific question I’d like answered, lol.

What feels like a racing heart, difficulty breathing, faintness, dizziness, nausea, trouble communicating, and whatever odds and ends might get thrown in there randomly don’t show up on any of the medical tests and measurements. Still feels like dying.

Therapists have told me to reduce stress. Primaries have told me I function too well to prescribe better meds. Hydroxywhatever makes me dysfunctional for half a day.  Psychiatrists are few and booked indefinitely.  🤷‍♀️ 

So like I said, you would be a good candidate to run genetics. You're getting screwed by the system. I agree, hydroxyzine is a lousy answer.

If you ever actually run genetics, you can write me and gab through it. $69 on 23andme is all it would take and you'd have enough raw data to find things. Odds are you'd find some stuff. In addition to the kinds of things you think about (methylation, things that affect serotonin, etc.) there's an issue with sodium channels. They are using beta blockers in low dose for anxiety and whatnot in autism because it affects this pathway. So when you're having that racing heart gig, that could be what you're describing. There's actually a potential physical explanation in the genetics. It's perverse that you have to know the issue to know the med to pick the doctor to tell him to give it to you.

Ironically, the counselor we used was conversant and could talk meds. So he couldn't *prescribe* them but he could mention classes in passing, things to talk with the doctor about, etc. So when you've got an idiot saying it's only hydroxyzine (which makes you groggy, sure) or SSRIs, that's just not correct.

https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  Not to be too obvious or direct or whatever, but it could help you to work on your interoception so you'd recognize it was happening BEFORE you got to that point. 

Edited by PeterPan
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1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

For me, societal “awareness” seems like a bit of a double edged sword. With all the openness, I see people thinking their young children have anxiety disorders and trauma caused by fire drills. And people who think I mean I’m “an anxious person” when I mean I SUFFER from anxiety. Like, giant hospital bills from thinking I might be dying, or totally shutting down because… well, sometimes I don’t know the trigger.

I don’t know how to accurately describe the specific differences, but I am able to be anxious in ways that aren’t my anxiety disorder, depressed in ways that aren’t my periods of clinical depression, and unable to focus in ways that aren’t my ADHD, and I can almost always tell the difference.   
Even when I think I might be dying, I tell the ER it’s probably just anxiety. (And that’s a terrible way to try to make sure you’re not actually dying!)

I can get on board with a spectrum theory, but there’s still a line somewhere in my head. 

Yes, psychiatry recognizes that there’s a line. It’s just a bit fuzzy on exactly where that line is. The farther you get from the line (either way) the easier it is to say “this is under the line or this is over the line”. 

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20 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

That’s a terrific question I’d like answered, lol.

I read a model on the stages of stress arousal and resolution. It's been quite useful here. I've been using the process described to lead Daughter through triggering situations. If our subconscious can't tell the difference between real or perceived threat, it can't tell the difference between real or perceived resolution either. She says it helps.

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9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So like I said, you would be a good candidate to run genetics. You're getting screwed by the system. I agree, hydroxyzine is a lousy answer.

If you ever actually run genetics, you can write me and gab through it. $69 on 23andme is all it would take and you'd have enough raw data to find things. Odds are you'd find some stuff. In addition to the kinds of things you think about (methylation, things that affect serotonin, etc.) there's an issue with sodium channels. They are using beta blockers in low dose for anxiety and whatnot in autism because it affects this pathway. So when you're having that racing heart gig, that could be what you're describing. There's actually a potential physical explanation in the genetics. It's perverse that you have to know the issue to know the med to pick the doctor to tell him to give it to you.

Ironically, the counselor we used was conversant and could talk meds. So he couldn't *prescribe* them but he could mention classes in passing, things to talk with the doctor about, etc. So when you've got an idiot saying it's only hydroxyzine (which makes you groggy, sure) or SSRIs, that's just not correct.

https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  Not to be too obvious or direct or whatever, but it could help you to work on your interoception so you'd recognize it was happening BEFORE you got to that point. 

Is the $69 when they run specials? My app is telling me the health upgrade is $125 right now. Still, something to consider.

I had done some reading about the web/cycle/intermingling of ADHD, anxiety, and depression, and that’s just made me more frustrated about the lack of knowledgeable practitioners. Informative, for sure, but added to frustration.

I’ve definitely improved my self-awareness over the past few years and dramatically reduced how often I hit a wall. There wasn’t much alternative, lol. I think (?) when it specifically comes to cardiovascular feelings, I lose objectivity because of my health/lifestyle history which, at my age, could easily catch up to me. Add all the stats about women overlooking heart attacks, and a small chest-area discomfort can take off like a rocket!  I’m much better handling stomach and head symptoms!

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On 8/13/2021 at 6:40 AM, PeterPan said:

I thought it was common knowledge. One of the common symptoms of low thyroid is depression, so the person gets a medication for that and they (the docs) use some stupid high, outdated TSH (5.0 or higher) and don't get the thyroid treated. 

Exactly. And if they get through by "sucking it up" because they had trauma (from a mentally ill parent) and are dissociating, then that's not healthy either. It's not like all suck it up is good. Using strategies, knowing how you feel, setting limits, being healthy is good. I think people with mental health challenges already hear suck it up, you're not good enough, you wouldn't feel this way if you tried harder, you wouldn't feel this way if you repented, you wouldn't feel this way if you were right with God, on and on enough. What they aren't usually given is the tools that would allow them to stay connected, use strategies, and do better. Meds alone don't necessarily solve things. My dad was given *13 years* of weekly psychiatric appointments and as many days a week as he wanted of group sessions. WHO HAS THAT KIND OF ACCESS??? So they TAUGHT my dad the cognitive tools, the self awareness tools, he needed ALONG WITH MEDS, to be in a better place. Neither one alone was getting him there. He's delusional without meds and can't apply strategies. But meds can only do so much. You still need self awareness and tools. 

Fwiw, so far my ds is on supplements based on genetics and is being given as many tools as I can. I'm VERY BLUNT about the consequences of not using tools, not taking meds. I'm pretty much all of the above, use what it takes, safety first. I get SO TIRED of people in the church who think they know a little something. That same pastor would not look at a person with cancer and say "But the Bible says we can anoint you with oil and pray and you'll be healed!" The Bible says it, but they don't do that with cancer. But they look at someone delusional or violent and look for simplistic answers (it's a sin problem, blah blah). 

There are a lot of very religious people trying very hard to suck it up who have very hard bodies and very hard chemistry to live with.

My Endo gets very frustrated with doctors who hand women Zoloft for PPD symptoms without running a full endocrine panel, because textbook PPD, and basically everything that puts a woman at risk for PPD, like difficulty concieving, prior pregnancy losses, and pregnancy complications is also textbook Hashimoto's, and while the TSH may still be in the "normal" range, other levels won't be-and treating, at that stage, is super easy and can avoid a lot of problems and complications. It was both extremely validating and extremely frustrating to hear that there was, indeed, an underlying cause for so much that had been missed. 

12 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm kinda at the point of wondering if calling things like depression and anxiety an  'illness' even has any value.*

It's mapping on a type of diagnosis and explanation that makes sense for the physical body ( sometimes) onto the mind - which we know close to zero about. You can't scan someone for mental illness. 

Chronic patterns or disruptions  of thought, feeling and behaviour that allow/disallow a person to function as they might wish. Sometimes modifiable to the extent the patterns or disruptions smooth out and allow more effective function, sometimes not. 

What we see, in the difference between sometimes feeling depressed and Having Depression is a difference in effect on function. Is one a disease and the other a natural transient state? Does it help to conceptualize it this way? Idk. 

Same with anxiety. It's just a mismatch between brain and environment. Who's to say the brain is ill - why not the environment? Maybe nothing is ill - just ill-suited. 

*I guess the purpose is to access resources that hopefully support better function. A shame we have to use a disease model to do it. 

 

My kid's therapist has commented that he's more worried about teens who are NOT showing anxiety and depression symptoms right now, because COVID plus adolescence is just plain a tough situation and is anxiety producing for anyone who is paying any attention at all. He feels being too "resilient" is a greater sign of problems than occasionally feeling overwhelmed but generally being able to be functional, and shouldn't be held up as an ideal, especially in adolescence. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dmmetler
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1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

My app is telling me the health upgrade is $125 right now.

You don't need that. The chip is the same either way and their health report won't tell you what you want to know. You would do the cheaper version, download the raw data file, and run that through other engines.

 

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On 8/12/2021 at 9:58 PM, Teaching3bears said:

What causes mental illnesses such as depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, OCD?

Mostly chemical imbalance?

Mostly trauma such as severe abuse?

Usually a combination of both?

Trauma causes chemical imbalances which cause mental illness?

Truly, each case is different?

Or, do you think mental illness is over diagnosed these days?

Or, do you think that back in the day when we had to walk a mile to school uphill nobody had time for mental illness?

My opinion isn’t relevant. What is factual is relevant. 
Fact: Study & treatment of mental illness has been insufficient to provide answers to your questions that can be universally applied. 

Personal observation: Mental illness is under diagnosed and insufficiently treated, often not treated at all. 

Mental illness is not respective of time - the very idea that some people have time to be mentally ill while others don’t reflects your lack of overall understanding of the basics of mental illness. A small amount of casual reading of reputable internet news sources, popular magazines and even watching some popular tv shows & movies would relieve you of that idea. 

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22 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

I was asking questions to learn more.

People who experience trauma often get diagnosed with anxiety, depression and other mental illness.

A lot of people who experience trauma are never diagnosed with any of those.

It could just be that the trauma was the trigger that made the mental difference show itself.

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