Face-to-face school - anyone else's kids start yet?

[Teaching3bears]

article: doctors more worried about Covid than flu in children
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1276332

[kokotg]

I saw someone comparing polio in kids to covid the other day, and I thought it was fascinating. Hearing stories about polio from my grandparents' generation, I would have thought it was much more dangerous than it actually is (or was, in places with high vaccination rates). I mean--they closed the swimming pools and all that! Only half a percent of polio cases go as far as having nervous system involvement, and only 2-5% of those cases in kids result in death. I'd love to read more about whether there was pushback against public health precautions back then or against vaccinating kids when the opportunity arose. : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio

ETA: and the oral polio vaccine actually WAS relatively dangerous

Edited August 27, 2021 by kokotg

[Faith-manor]

According to JAMA, 1 in 4 children have a pre-existing condition for complications from covid.

That is not a small number.

In my tri-county area of nothing but stitch and ditch band aid stations, there are roughly - based on 2020 census numbers - 48,000 children. 25% is 12,000. If 10% of them get covid - 1200 - and 2% have complications that is 24. We have only two pediatricians between these three counties, and all children have to be hospitalized in the county east of me which has 25,000 children of its own and only one hospital with a pediatric wing. 26 peds beds of which 15 are filled already, and only about 5 beds with enough staffing to function as PICU. Otherwise, they get sent to Children's in Detroit, Beaumont, St. Joe in Ann Arbor, etc. We have absolutely NO capacity in this state to handle a rage among peds. 

And according to this article, 46.4% of all children hospitalized for covid are "healthy" ie. no pre-existing conditions so in all actuality, it is a freaking stupid myth to think "Oh, my kid is healthy so no worries". Delta is a game changer. So really the above numbers for complications will probably be double meaning the remaining 11 pedal beds are going to be gone by the middle of next week if not sooner.https://www.kmbc.com/article/what-are-long-term-covid-19-complications-like-for-children-and-adolescents-heres-what-experts-say/37279630#

The only mitigation there can be is for kids to not get this and spread it. So what did the local school district do? Go back without a single precaution of any kind, and no quarantine or isolation policy. If your kid is exposed, you will not even get a phone call. You won't know. So yay, your kid can be the Petri dish that delivers it to another kid, and another, and another because you have no idea they should be staying home. It is going to spread like wildfire! What is happening this morning in that district? Because so many teachers and staff quit two weeks ago when the do nothing, head in sand policy was announced, 539 students K-5 and over 300 of them are sitting in the gym shoulder to shoulder watching educational videos while the other 200 are broken up into small groups for a few minutes of reading and math instruction, then sent back to the gym and another group pulled. All day, a round robin of kids shoulder to shoulder in the gym, then out for a few minutes, then back again. 

Ped beds will be full soon in Michigan. But nobody cares. This is eugenics experimentation. Right? I mean that is the attitude. No one apparently has any responsibility to stop the damn spread, and stop giving it hosts to mutate in. Darwin in the driver's seat. Lovely.😠

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Faith-manor

[SKL]

21 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I saw someone comparing polio in kids to covid the other day, and I thought it was fascinating. Hearing stories about polio from my grandparents' generation, I would have thought it was much more dangerous than it actually is (or was, in places with high vaccination rates). I mean--they closed the swimming pools and all that! Only half a percent of polio cases go as far as having nervous system involvement, and only 2-5% of those cases in kids result in death. I'd love to read more about whether there was pushback against public health precautions back then or against vaccinating kids when the opportunity arose. : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio

ETA: and the oral polio vaccine actually WAS relatively dangerous

I don't know what the sentiment was then, but I am sure that not having internet made a huge difference.

I remember my mom talking about having known schoolmates who had serious polio cases, and nobody wanting that.  Also there had been a recent prez with polio side effects.  So on the one hand, seeing was believing - if they hadn't seen people with severe polio effects, they might have felt differently.  On the other hand, there was no platform for foreign bots and non-local conspiracy theorists.  I also think there was more trust in journalism back then.  And the pictures of kids in iron lungs - a picture paints a thousand words.

One other thing.  Polio was usually mild and went away by itself.  But in those cases, did people actually even realize it was polio?  Today, we have a lot more data so everyone knows that Covid, especially in kids, is usually very mild or asymptomatic.  So that might be another difference.

And the polio vax was one of the earliest, so maybe the thought that the vax itself could be dangerous didn't occur to people.  The very fact that the polio vax caused illness is one of the reasons why people are vax-hesitant today, especially with relatively new vaxes.

[TCB]

12 hours ago, freesia said:

Not completely for him.  There is a miniscule chance of a long term reactions.  I *know* and he *knows* that it is very, very small.  It's just that if the chance of death from covid is as small as death from say strep then waiting a few more months as long as our area isn't surging like Florida is not a tremendous risk on an individual level.  It seems the hospitalization for under 17 is less than .2 per 100,000 in our general area.  But I still want to know more about those children.  Other articles always have a line about "most of the children have underlying conditions."

It sounds like you are being really careful with your dd and I understand the difficult risk/benefit equation that we have to think through as parents. It isn’t easy. I do really think that we will find that these vaccines are incredibly safe, long term, but I also know how hard it is to hear all the crazy talk around, and how much we worry about our kids. I don’t know what I would do if I had a 12 year old. I would be putting exposure risk into the equation, and trying to keep up with data on kids, just like you are. 
My youngest dd is 17 and we did let her get vaccinated just about as soon as she was eligible. The things that went into our equation for her were that she has grandparents overseas that she would like to visit, and being vaccinated might make that easier as well as safer, and also, that she has grandparents here that won’t get vaccinated. Some of these factors were stronger positive ones before we knew the higher possibility of breakthrough infections with Delta. After her first dose she had an episode of really loud ringing in her ears, which only lasted a second, but made me concerned about the possible tinnitus link that people were talking about. I was able to look at some figures on that from the UK, thanks to a link shared here on the WTM, and, when I discussed the % risk with my dh, he immediately felt like the equation was still definitely positive for her, so she got her 2nd dose as planned - fortunately no tinnitus. 
As far as risk for older people, I’m in my late 50s and I feel relief from the fact that I’m vaccinated. I consider my biggest risk factor to be my age, although I am probably 15-20 lbs overweight. I have known people my age and shape get really sick, but fortunately most have survived, but I also don’t want to go through hospitalization, and a number I know do have some long term effects. But some people that I see not surviving, may have risk factors, like being overweight, but they are like a large % of the people I see around town every day. I honestly can’t go to the store without looking at lots of people there and feeling concern for them if they should get Covid. Before the vaccine was available that was one of the big reasons I avoided public places, because it was too distressing to see these potentially at risk people not being careful.

Just to add - I haven’t looked at this extensively, but I have heard several expert people that I trust, say that there is really no precedent for vaccine side effects to show up months after vaccination, let alone years, so that has also reassured me.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

When I've heard my parents talk about polio, they weren't just afraid of death. Children became permanently handicapped because of polio and iron lungs sound horrific. 

According to my mother, everyone was relieved when the polio vaccine was developed and they got vaccinated. My parents were in Texas at that time. My mother is amazed that people hesitate to vaccinate their children. I once asked her if she ever researched the vaccines that we got or questioned the doctor about them. It never occurred to her. I think that's normal for her generation. There were subcultures in the USA who behaved differently though. 

But those are still in the half percent with nervous system involvement. 

[catz]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

I think it was @FuzzyCatz who had some experience with MIS-C? (Apologies if I'm misremembering.) And I know there are some boardies whose kids had COVID with no ill effects, too, but if I'm remembering correctly, we have quite limited anecdata. 

Yes, my nephew was hospitalized for 6 days with Pneumonia and MIS-C as an 8th grader in the spring.  He has been continuing to follow up with a cardiologist since.  He JUST got cleared to get covid vaccinated.  No he had no pre-existing conditions and had never been hospitalized prior.  He also was recently cleared for athletics again (he was on limited activity for about 4 months).  I don't think anyone really knows how this may affect him in the future.  

My only comment on MIS-C is my nephew did not test covid positive when he was admitted.  He has private insurance and was in a large urban research hospital.  So they did do follow up with antibody checks.  I am just not sure I totally trust numbers on kids and hospitalization and covid and long term affects due to this.  I think it's naïve to think every child that might need to hospitalized is getting the same level of follow up and care and data collection.  Where there are big outbreaks, those doctors are probably learning and seeing and tracking more data as time goes on.  The CDC estimates they are missing a huge number of cases.  

An aside, but last week a friend's teen son's girlfriend (high school age) and the girlfriend's mother were hospitalized with covid.  My 25 year old niece (other side of family) was also hospitalized with pneumonia last fall. 

I'm very glad we are all vaccinated and will happily take a booster when it's my turn.  Excited for families with younger kids to get their chance.  My nephew was hospitalized the same week the vaccine was cleared for 12-15 year olds.   I admit my patience for "it doesn't hurt kids/young people" is thin.  ETA - oh my nephew's community had been making the local news regularly for like a month before he was hospitalized for outbreaks in sports teams and schools.  And that community did NOTHING to mitigate at that time.  

Edited August 27, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I am just not sure I totally trust numbers on kids and hospitalization and covid and long term affects due to this. 

I don't trust that data, either, especially on long-term stuff like MIS-C. 

Honestly, the MIS-C stuff freaks me out as much as anything. Because it means that we KNOW that the virus is doing something weird and unexpected in kids' bodies with a frequency which isn't all that low. How could I feel safe knowing that? 😕  Between that and long COVID, the unknowns feel like they loom much higher than they do with flu. 

[Faith-manor]

24 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

When I've heard my parents talk about polio, they weren't just afraid of death. Children became permanently handicapped because of polio and iron lungs sound horrific. 

According to my mother, everyone was relieved when the polio vaccine was developed and they got vaccinated. My parents were in Texas at that time. My mother is amazed that people hesitate to vaccinate their children. I once asked her if she ever researched the vaccines that we got or questioned the doctor about them. It never occurred to her. I think that's normal for her generation. There were subcultures in the USA who behaved differently though. 

Yes. My husband's aunt was a mild case. Very mild according to her doctor. She walked the rest of her life with a limp, and lost the use of one hand. Like covid, mild is a relative term. So mild in polio did not mean that there were nor major side effects or permanent damage, just that one was not hospitalized. Lots of mild cases resulted in permanent injury.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Yes. My husband's aunt was a mild case. Very mild according to her doctor. She walked the rest of her life with a limp, and lost the use of one hand. Like covid, mild is a relative term. So mild in polio did not mean that there were nor major side effects or permanent damage, just that one was not hospitalized. Lots of mild cases resulted in permanent injury.

But again, that's the 0.5% that had nervous system involvement. Most people didn't. 

I'm not arguing that polio was mild, by the way. I'm arguing that a 0.5% chance of nervous system involvement isn't a low number!! 

[kokotg]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But again, that's the 0.5% that had nervous system involvement. Most people didn't. 

I'm not arguing that polio was mild, by the way. I'm arguing that a 0.5% chance of nervous system involvement isn't a low number!! 

Right! I brought it up because I see so many people saying the deaths and other complications from covid we've seen in kids are no big deal, when my perception is that polio was viewed as a very big deal back in the days before the vaccine, even though the vast majority of kids who contracted it were also totally fine. I actually saw someone on twitter the other day make an eye rolly comment about America's obsession with "protecting kids at all costs." When did protecting kids at all costs become...bad? 

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Right! I brought it up because I see so many people saying the deaths and other complications from covid we've seen in kids are no big deal, when my perception is that polio was viewed as a very big deal back in the days before the vaccine, even though the vast majority of kids who contracted it were also totally fine. I actually saw someone on twitter the other day make an eye rolly comment about America's obsession with "protecting kids at all costs." When did protecting kids at all costs become...bad? 

When we said, "How bout y'all stop having parties, wear a damn mask, and get a shot?" Right then. Because of all the evils in the world this was apparently the most evil.

[kokotg]

10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

This NPR article reports that there were 60K cases in 1952 with 3K deaths and "thousands" left paralyzed. That would be a 5% mortality rate. 

Wiping Out Polio: How The U.S. Snuffed Out A Killer

 

huh. I wonder why the numbers are so different than what I found. The source for the wikipedia article I linked to is this: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html

Quote

Less than 1% of all polio infections in children result in flaccid paralysis.

Quote

The case fatality ratio for paralytic polio is generally 2% to 5% among children and up to 15% to 30% among adolescents and adults.

ETA: I wonder if the 60,000 cases is only counting paralytic cases...although that would mean more than 6,000,000 actual infections in one year in children. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by kokotg

[SKL]

22 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Right! I brought it up because I see so many people saying the deaths and other complications from covid we've seen in kids are no big deal, when my perception is that polio was viewed as a very big deal back in the days before the vaccine, even though the vast majority of kids who contracted it were also totally fine. I actually saw someone on twitter the other day make an eye rolly comment about America's obsession with "protecting kids at all costs." When did protecting kids at all costs become...bad? 

I'm not denying the risk, I'm saying it's not sufficient to keep kids away from developmentally normal and healthy activities.

There is also a very real risk of kids dying in school bus and playground accidents, but we don't have multiple ongoing threads about whether or not those risks should make us keep our kids home.  We don't have threads about whether it's safe to visit Grandma given the risk of traffic accidents en route.

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, kokotg said:

huh. I wonder why the numbers are so different than what I found. The source for the wikipedia article I linked to is this: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html

 

Probably one source is including only reported/tested cases while another source is including an estimate of cases that weren't bad enough to seek serious treatment.

ETA or is "paralytic polio" a subset of overall polio....

Edited August 27, 2021 by SKL

[kokotg]

Just now, SKL said:

Probably one source is including only reported/tested cases while another source is including an estimate of cases that weren't bad enough to seek serious treatment.

yeah--I edited to speculate about whether that was the case.

[Matryoshka]

4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

This NPR article reports that there were 60K cases in 1952 with 3K deaths and "thousands" left paralyzed. That would be a 5% mortality rate. 

Wiping Out Polio: How The U.S. Snuffed Out A Killer

 

But that's CFR, not IFR. As we saw in the first wave of Covid in the Northeast, when there are large numbers of asymptomatic cases and no widespread testing, the CFR by definition goes up. There was no testing back then to find all the asymptomatic carriers of polio.

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, kokotg said:

ETA: I wonder if the 60,000 cases is only counting paralytic cases...although that would mean more than 6,000,000 actual infections in one year in children. 

Almost certainly. It's pretty easy to catch, from what I understand. There's no way it'd stop at that number. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

I'm not denying the risk, I'm saying it's not sufficient to keep kids away from developmentally normal and healthy activities.

There is also a very real risk of kids dying in school bus and playground accidents, but we don't have multiple ongoing threads about whether or not those risks should make us keep our kids home.  We don't have threads about whether it's safe to visit Grandma given the risk of traffic accidents en route.

Actually, some of us are very concerned about things like no seat belts on buses. And I know people who do not allow their kids to ride the bus because there are no seatbelts, and we have these atrocious, winter roads with huge ditches/drainage canals. 638 children 12 and under on average die per year in traffic accidents. Every few years safety features for children are reviewed which is why we have car seats, ever developing new car seat technology, seatbelt laws. States have tightened up licensing laws for teens, and in my state, minors cannot drive other minors without a parent or guardian in the car in order to mitigate risks. Monkey bars and slides without high sides have been removed from many playgrounds to reduce the risk of injury, merry go round designs have changed.

We actually look at a lot of risks for kids and ways of mitigating those risks. But not with covid. Apparently that is the one where people stopped giving a damn.

[freesia]

1 minute ago, Matryoshka said:

But that's CFR, not IFR. As we saw in the first wave of Covid in the Northeast, when there are large numbers of asymptomatic cases and no widespread testing, the CFR by definition goes up. There was no testing back then to find all the asymptomatic carriers of polio.

I don't think that's stopped at all with Covid.  I think there are quite a lot of covid cases we are missing in children either bc they are asymptomatic, live in places with little testing, or were so mild parents didn't test.  My vaccinated 16 year old has bad seasonal allergies.  I have tested him at home several times, but not every time he's congested--that would be daily.  That makes the percentages even more difficult to figure out with kids.

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

 Monkey bars and slides without high sides have been removed from many playgrounds to reduce the risk of injury, merry go round designs have changed.

When I took my kids to Germany when they were young, they played on old-fashioned equipment that would no longer be allowed here - monkey bars close together and see-saws.  I happily let them and thought how ridiculously risk-averse we've become here... and yep, not one but two ER visits to glue things back together - one hit the back of their head coming down between the narrow monkey bars, the other one had their nose split by the see-saw handle.    Oops.

Good news is that German ER visits cost less full-pay out of pocket than just our co-pay for an ER visit here.

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Actually, some of us are very concerned about things like no seat belts on buses. And I know people who do not allow their kids to ride the bus because there are no seatbelts, and we have these atrocious, winter roads with huge ditches/drainage canals. 638 children 12 and under on average die per year in traffic accidents. Every few years safety features for children are reviewed which is why we have car seats, ever developing new car seat technology, seatbelt laws. States have tightened up licensing laws for teens, and in my state, minors cannot drive other minors without a parent or guardian in the car in order to mitigate risks. Monkey bars and slides without high sides have been removed from many playgrounds to reduce the risk of injury, merry go round designs have changed.

We actually look at a lot of risks for kids and ways of mitigating those risks. But not with covid. Apparently that is the one where people stopped giving a damn.

It's not true that nobody gives a damn about kids, so I don't know how anyone thinks that's going to move this conversation forward.  The linked article from Australia had the benefit of not being injected with divisive US politics.  It gave lots of good points as far as both understanding and prioritizing risks.  It makes more sense sense for kids to go to school than to wait until their risk from disease is zero.  It also makes more sense to get the elderly in poorer countries vaccinated first. 

As for those playground risks, there are pros and cons to making everything so "safe."  It's been theorized that the lack of things like swings on school and preschool playgrounds contributes to kids' increasing inability to sit still and listen in school, because those swings helped kids to develop core body strength.  Just one example.  I mean, I don't want to see kids bust their heads open either, but making an elementary school playground fit for the developmental level of a 3yo is worse than just letting the kids go play in the woods (which ... eek, what a thought!).

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

As for those playground risks, there are pros and cons to making everything so "safe."  It's been theorized that the lack of things like swings on school and preschool playgrounds contributes to kids' increasing inability to sit still and listen in school, because those swings helped kids to develop core body strength.  Just one example.  I mean, I don't want to see kids bust their heads open either, but making an elementary school playground fit for the developmental level of a 3yo is worse than just letting the kids go play in the woods (which ... eek, what a thought!).

I actually completely agree with you on this - the new playground equipment is so overly bubble-wrapped that I fear kids aren't learning important proprioceptive skills.

I'm just newly a fan of monkey bars having a bit more space between them (not eliminating them).  

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Matryoshka said:

I actually completely agree with you on this - the new playground equipment is so overly bubble-wrapped that I fear kids aren't learning important proprioceptive skills.

I'm just newly a fan of monkey bars having a bit more space between them (not eliminating them).  

Right. A broken wrist is one thing. I concussion is another and we've learned so much more about the long term damage a concussion can cause. 

[pinball]

The largest university system in the US (SUNY) started with required, mandated vaccines for students but not for faculty and staff.

I wonder why that is?

[Faith-manor]

43 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It feels like we keep having the same discussion over and over again. 

I push back on the idea of "protecting kids at all costs" because it's obvious that we don't do that. My kid is in school right now. If I wanted to protect my kid "at all cost," I would keep her home. But I weighed the risk of COVID along with other risks agains the benefit of an 11 YO girl being in school with her friends. Our risk calculation would be different if DD was immunocompromised. 

She is driven to and from school in a car. She sits in the backseat and wears a seatbelt. 

And yeah, we talk about it. We're mothers, we worry. (generalizing, I know) But I think all parents understand what we're doing and don't need the smarmy lecture (not directed at you) about how we don't understand risks. This isn't the great insight that people seem to think it is. 

Is anyone forcing their kids to wear masks but not seatbelts? 

Generally speaking humans don't always worry about the right thing, e.g. most people are more nervous about flying than driving. Most of us drive all of the time so it's hard to see its risk. Also there's the element of control. We drive a car but the pilot flies the plane. That's why people are nervous about self driving cars. 

It's like how parents generally worry more about stranger danger than people we know but who poses the greater risk to our children? People that we know and trust. 

 

Sigh. I was responding to another person who insisted that we don't "lose our minds" or really mitigate other risks which is nonsense. And yes, I am tired of going around the Mullberry bush over and over. Time for another board break, and try to think about other things.

[pinball]

11 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I know! I know! 

Let me guess...liberals are in control of the universities so it's about cancel culture? Or maybe it's hypocrisy? Whatever it is, I'm certain that it's BAD.VERY.VERY.BAD.AND.LIBERALS.ARE.TO.BLAME!!!!! 

Hmmmm...

Seriously, let's look at the facts. Masks and vaccines are required for some staff members (a nuance missing from your post). They are not required due to a union agreement between some staff members and the state. 

I think you are wrong about a vaccine requirement for “some” staff members. 

[pinball]

5 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It depends on whether they are part of a union or not. 

You either conveniently ignored that part of the story or went into full trolling mode. 

 

Nope, everything I read says faculty and staff are not mandated. 
 

So I’m going with that.

[Spy Car]

26 minutes ago, pinball said:

Nope, everything I read says faculty and staff are not mandated. 
 

So I’m going with that.

Can we assume you are strongly in favor of faculty and staff in educational settings being mandated to vaccinate? 

Bill

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Spy Car

[Danae]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Probably one source is including only reported/tested cases while another source is including an estimate of cases that weren't bad enough to seek serious treatment.

ETA or is "paralytic polio" a subset of overall polio....

It’s a subset. “Normal” polio is a fever/sore throat/vomiting type of illness.  .5-1% of cases develop into paralytic polio.  

[Danae]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

 

As for those playground risks, there are pros and cons to making everything so "safe."  It's been theorized that the lack of things like swings on school and preschool playgrounds contributes to kids' increasing inability to sit still and listen in school, because those swings helped kids to develop core body strength.  Just one example.  I mean, I don't want to see kids bust their heads open either, but making an elementary school playground fit for the developmental level of a 3yo is worse than just letting the kids go play in the woods (which ... eek, what a thought!).

It’s a lot easier not to bubble-wrap kids in a world where one broken arm doesn’t risk medical bankruptcy.  
 

That’s the thing I never see mentioned in articles about how parents in Europe let their kids climb trees and play on merry-go-rounds.  They also have publicly funded health care.

[pinball]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

The largest university system in the US (SUNY) started with required, mandated vaccines for students but not for faculty and staff.

I wonder why that is?

 

53 minutes ago, pinball said:

I think you are wrong about a vaccine requirement for “some” staff members. 

 

35 minutes ago, pinball said:

Nope, everything I read says faculty and staff are not mandated. 
 

So I’m going with that.

 

10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Obviously you aren't reading reliable news sources if you've not seen any mention of the union. 

SUNY vaccine mandate activated by FDA approval

UB, Buff State welcome students back with COVID plans in place

 

I literally said they are not mandated/required for faculty and staff.  You brought up unions…not me. You said: .” Masks and vaccines are required for some staff members (a nuance missing from your post) “

where do these articles say that vaccines are required for some staff??

From your articles:

UB says more than 90% of students are have been vaccinated. Staff and Employees are not required to be vaccinated, but those who are not face more restrictions.

SUNY Faculty and staff are strongly encouraged but not required to get vaccinated, per their unions' agreements with SUNY. 
 

 

[pinball]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Bolded. 

You're the one who asked why staff members weren't required to get the vaccine. The answer is due to the union. 

You're engaging in your usual trolling. 

Still waiting for your documentation of:

“Masks and vaccines are required for some staff members (a nuance missing from your post) “

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, pinball said:

Still waiting for your documentation of:

“Masks and vaccines are required for some staff members (a nuance missing from your post) “

Still don't understand your purpose here.

If you are condemning vaccination being strongly advised for faculty and staff  as opposed to being mandated, then I'm right there with you.

But I suspect that's not the case. Right?

Bill

 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

The largest university system in the US (SUNY) started with required, mandated vaccines for students but not for faculty and staff.

I wonder why that is?

I don't know what is going on at SUNY, but a very simple explanation (that does not require ascribing any nefarious motives to anybody) could be that students pose a much higher risk to one another than the professor to the students or other professors.

My 140 students sit shoulder on shoulder in a packed lecture hall.
I stand at the podium, a comfortable 10+ feet away.

My students share dorm rooms, showers, dining halls.
I go home where I share living space with only my immediate family.

(ETA: I am vaccinated anyway, as are all of my colleagues I have spoken to)

Edited August 27, 2021 by regentrude

[Jean in Newcastle]

38 minutes ago, pinball said:

 

 

 

I literally said they are not mandated/required for faculty and staff.  You brought up unions…not me. You said: .” Masks and vaccines are required for some staff members (a nuance missing from your post) “

where do these articles say that vaccines are required for some staff??

From your articles:

UB says more than 90% of students are have been vaccinated. Staff and Employees are not required to be vaccinated, but those who are not face more restrictions.

SUNY Faculty and staff are strongly encouraged but not required to get vaccinated, per their unions' agreements with SUNY. 
 

 

https://www.suny.edu/sunypp/documents.cfm?doc_id=900

"Though this New York State directive does not apply to faculty and staff, all SUNY faculty and staff are strongly encouraged to get vaccinated. However, patient-facing employees and volunteers at SUNY's Hospitals and Nursing Homes may be subject to mandatory COVID-19 Vaccination pursuant to the Public Health Law Section 16 Order issued by the NYS Department of Health on August 18, 2021."

I realize that a nit-picker will see the "may be subject to" but it's fairly clear that patient-facing SUNY employees will need to follow the mandatory vaccination requirement. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Jean in Newcastle
added quotation marks to show the part that I quoted.

[Idalou]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

Still waiting for your documentation of:

“Masks and vaccines are required for some staff members (a nuance missing from your post) “

The SUNY system is requiring some staff to vaccinate. As others have explained to you, labor rules restrict them from requiring faculty, but the profs and on campus staff will be tested weekly and will mask. 

SUNY Upstate medical is requiring their staff to vaccinate if they engage directly with patients( masking/weekly testing for others).

SUNY also owns 4 or 5 nursing homes for military veterans and their employees are required to vaccinate. 

 They also have a #30daystovax, or some such similar thing going on, for both students and employees. I hear it constantly on local radio stations. I would also make an educated guess that a great deal of their professors are already vaccinated. I think SUNY has had students on campus for the past year, so they probably feel pretty much in the groove with making the best of a cruddy  situation. In addition, over half of their campuses were vaccination sites for the public! Seriously, you can not drive more than half an hour in the state without being near a SUNY.

Ok, I think I found an answer for you.

https://uupinfo.org/contract/

Looks like their labor contract runs from 2016 to 2022. Maybe sometving about vaccine requirements will be part of the next negotiation.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Idalou

[KSera]

Yikes. Look at the diagram of how the teacher spread it to the students. Who's going to want their student in the front row of a classroom with an unmasked teacher right now?  I think kids all need to be eating outdoors, too.

 

[JennyD]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

 

(ETA: I am vaccinated anyway, as are all of my colleagues I have spoken to)

Same, and that was true even before my university required faculty and staff to vaccinate.  From what I have heard from people better placed than I, making it an official requirement was not at all controversial, at least among faculty (although there were some issues with the system for uploading documentation).

This would be in sharp contrast to the recent change in the parking policy, which is extremely controversial and generating extensive complaints. 

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, JennyD said:

This would be in sharp contrast to the recent change in the parking policy, which is extremely controversial and generating extensive complaints. 

Bahaha. What is it with academics and parking? On my campus, the parking decisions are extremely contentious and the parking committee has the worst arguments... but there is plenty of free street parking in easy walking distance. I refuse to buy the permit and have been parking for free on the street for 20 years; never had to walk more than 6 minutes to my building. Most days, I park right across the street 🙂

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Bahaha. What is it with academics and parking? On my campus, the parking decisions are extremely contentious and the parking committee has the worst arguments... but there is plenty of free street parking in easy walking distance. I refuse to buy the permit and have been parking for free on the street for 20 years; never had to walk more than 6 minutes to my building. Most days, I park right across the street 🙂

Ugh don't remind me.  The year I taught one graduate class, I paid almost my entire earnings out for parking.  And that was with a discount.  😛

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Idalou said:

The SUNY system is requiring some staff to vaccinate. As others have explained to you, labor rules restrict them from requiring faculty, but the profs and on campus staff will be tested weekly and will mask. 

SUNY Upstate medical is requiring their staff to vaccinate if they engage directly with patients( masking/weekly testing for others).

SUNY also owns 4 or 5 nursing homes for military veterans and their employees are required to vaccinate. 

 They also have a #30daystovax, or some such similar thing going on, for both students and employees. I hear it constantly on local radio stations. I would also make an educated guess that a great deal of their professors are already vaccinated. I think SUNY has had students on campus for the past year, so they probably feel pretty much in the groove with making the best of a cruddy  situation. In addition, over half of their campuses were vaccination sites for the public! Seriously, you can not drive more than half an hour in the state without being near a SUNY.

Ok, I think I found an answer for you.

https://uupinfo.org/contract/

Looks like their labor contract runs from 2016 to 2022. Maybe sometving about vaccine requirements will be part of the next negotiation.

Yeah, that came about because of the coming mandate for health care workers in NYS to be vaccinated. 
 

We’ll see what actual happens.

[wathe]

5 hours ago, kokotg said:

huh. I wonder why the numbers are so different than what I found. The source for the wikipedia article I linked to is this: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html

ETA: I wonder if the 60,000 cases is only counting paralytic cases...although that would mean more than 6,000,000 actual infections in one year in children. 

I think part of the difficulty is that something like 90% of polio infections are asymptomatic.  I'm sure there is a certain amount of guessing for historical numbers.  

So CFR for polio syndrome (symptomatic cases) will be different from CFR for all polio infections.

My pro database (UpToDate, paywalled) quotes for all polio infections: 90-95% are asymptomatic, less than 10% have viral symptoms (headache, fever, myalgia, vomiting, fatigue etc), and 0.1% of all infections progress to paralytic polio/poliomyelitis. No CFR is quoted, but presumable it is even less.  

Post-polio syndrome (neurological symptoms that start years post-infection) is a different thing, with rates of up to 50% of  those who had a diagnosis symptomatic polio.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

Yikes. Look at the diagram of how the teacher spread it to the students. Who's going to want their student in the front row of a classroom with an unmasked teacher right now?  I think kids all need to be eating outdoors, too.

 

I am not in favor of frivolous law suits, but if a teacher unmasks in school (where a mandate exists!) and gives half the class Covid, the parents should sue. (Have been wondering this for a while: people in this country sue for all kinds of nonsense - why don't we hear of law suits against people who recklessly infect others?)

[Matryoshka]

I just posted this elsewhere, but I had dinner with my good friend who is a teacher last night.  Yesterday was her first day back with kids.  She wanted to eat inside because it was super hot out, but I insisted on outdoor seating.  

Yeah, just got a call, first day back, positive kid in her class, kids are not masking, but fortunately she is (and she's vaxxed, who know about all those unmasked kids).  Full classroom, no distancing, poor ventilation.   I can't think but that she's going to be getting these calls mutliple times a week.  She's expected to be right back to work; at least they told her and are offering to test her....?

Here comes the big Delta wave to the heretofore comparatively well-off northeast...

[TexasProud]

I don't understand. The local elementary posted today that they were so excited. The football players, drill team and cheer kids from the high school greeted them as they got dropped off to school. Hugs galore. Not a mask in sight.  I just don't understand. Can someone explain? 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I don't understand. The local elementary posted today that they were so excited. The football players, drill team and cheer kids from the high school greeted them as they got dropped off to school. Hugs galore. Not a mask in sight.  I just don't understand. Can someone explain? 

Some people are very good at ignoring facts they do not like, or that scare them. that's the only charitable response I have. 

[ktgrok]

A judge ruled DeathSantis's ban on mask mandates in schools is unconstitutional!!!

https://www.npr.org/sections/back-to-school-live-updates/2021/08/27/1031714923/florida-judge-throws-out-governor-ron-desantis-order-prohibiting-masks-in-school

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 30, 2021 by Nothingtoseehere

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited October 30, 2021 by Nothingtoseehere