AOPS Online vs. AOPS Academy?

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

Can you tell me the difference between the text-based online class and the academy class? Which one is better in your opinion? 

[SoCal_Bear]

The Academy class has live video classroom. For my son, text-based would never work. This is also why self-paced classes won't work for him either. 

Whether or not it is better really depends on your student and how they learn. 

Alternatively, AOPS math classes are also offered by WTMA and Royal Fireworks Press.

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by calbear

[Rush]

8 minutes ago, calbear said:

The Academy class has live video classroom. For my son, text-based would never work. This is also why self-paced classes won't work for him either. 

Whether or not it is better really depends on your student and how they learn. 

Alternatively, AOPS math classes are also offered by WTMA and Royal Fireworks Press.

 

same here

 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

1 hour ago, calbear said:

The Academy class has live video classroom. For my son, text-based would never work. This is also why self-paced classes won't work for him either. 

Whether or not it is better really depends on your student and how they learn. 

Alternatively, AOPS math classes are also offered by WTMA and Royal Fireworks Press.

 

Does the live video/zoom style class at the academy cost the same as an in-person class at the academy? 

My student do well with pre-recorded videos but need help clarifying things out here and there. He doesn't do well with zoom style unless it's 1 on 1. I heard WTM AOPS classes aren't as rigorous? The in-person academy class is so expensive and I'm not sure if it's worth it. 😰😬

[SoCal_Bear]

I looked really quick at the price for Intro to Geometry AKA Math Honors 8. The virtual is listed at 1650 for 2 hours of live instruction. Locally, the in-person class where I am would be around $2k. 

WTMA is $735 for 2.5 hours. RFP is $900 (I am guessing it is 90 minutes based on how the classes are scheduled).

That's probably a fair statement that it isn't as intense as the text-based ones. It certainly doesn't move as fast as those classes do. From what people have said, in-person is less intense than the text based one. 

I suppose you have the option of doing the delayed option with WTMA as well.

Edited August 9, 2021 by calbear

[SeaConquest]

The Academy classes are in-person now in San Diego. I don't know about the other locations.

[Not_a_Number]

I’ll note that there are actually advantages to the text-based format. Each student has the chance to answer all questions and it’s very interactive.

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

13 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

The Academy classes are in-person now in San Diego. I don't know about the other locations.

We are close (ok not really that close but driving distance) to two locations: Vienna & Gaithersburg. I believe they are in-person at the moment, but things may change with Delta on the rise. 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

16 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’ll note that there are actually advantages to the text-based format. Each student has the chance to answer all questions and it’s very interactive.

Did your kids run into a problem where he couldn't read fast enough and the new comments kept pushing the chat box up? 

[SDMomof3]

19 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Does the live video/zoom style class at the academy cost the same as an in-person class at the academy? 

My student do well with pre-recorded videos but need help clarifying things out here and there. He doesn't do well with zoom style unless it's 1 on 1. I heard WTM AOPS classes aren't as rigorous? The in-person academy class is so expensive and I'm not sure if it's worth it. 😰😬

The in person cost about 300 more per year than the virtual academy. My ds normally attends the in person at the academy, but he did virtual last year. He has also taken the text base classes as well. He prefers the in person classes. I would say the in person classes are definitely worth the cost. Ds has taken both math and ELA classes at the academy. 

[SoCal_Bear]

15 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

The Academy classes are in-person now in San Diego. I don't know about the other locations.

They developed a virtual academy option in addition to the in-person locations.

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Did your kids run into a problem where he couldn't read fast enough and the new comments kept pushing the chat box up? 

I don’t have a child in there, I just teach them 🙂 . 

[Mom_to3]

 

9 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Did your kids run into a problem where he couldn't read fast enough and the new comments kept pushing the chat box up? 

My 11 year old has taken 2 of their Python classes, and for him it hasn't been an issue at all. He's become an incredibly fast typer (he tries to respond to most questions, and often, the answers given by multiple students to the same questions are posted - so as Not-a-Number says, the classes are very interactive). He also loves the little "chats" with the other students (also typed) before and after class. They also have a board for the class where students can ask (and answer) questions inbetween classes.

For my 9 year old, who is going to start their AoPS Pre-Algebra book soon, it's something that I worry about. Perhaps we'll enroll him and see how he does in the first class or two (AoPS has a pretty generous class refund policy if the text-based format is not working out for your kid; I think you get a full refund until after the second class).

I am more concerned that the fast moving nature of the classes won't allow the kids to work through the entire books/questions, which my eldest has always done. I expect the same would happen with the Academy classes. Does anyone have experience with this? Am considering to enroll my eldest in Number Theory or F=ma, just so that he can keep the fun aspect of the (text-based) classes, while not being overwhelmed with a course like Intermediate Algebra. We are homeschooling, so have all the time in the world. 

I have no experience with the online or in person academy classes.

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

I am more concerned that the fast moving nature of the classes won't allow the kids to work through the entire books/questions, which my eldest has always done. I expect the same would happen with the Academy classes.

I've seen people do the book, then the online class. Realistically, I don't think the amount of work in the online class is compatible with also doing all the work in the book. 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

11 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

I am more concerned that the fast moving nature of the classes won't allow the kids to work through the entire books/questions

It makes sense. But my goal for either the online or the academy class is for a teacher to teach him the lessons. It takes him a long time to read the lesson problem solutions and strategies. Does he still have to read those before the classes anyway? 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

It makes sense. But my goal for either the online or the academy class is for a teacher to teach him the lessons. It takes him a long time to read the lesson problem solutions and strategies. Does he still have to read those before the classes anyway? 

Kids are expected to read the book before class. They do get taught the ideas again (not the exact same lesson, though) in class. 

[daijobu]

On 8/10/2021 at 6:45 AM, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Did your kids run into a problem where he couldn't read fast enough and the new comments kept pushing the chat box up? 

I've found just the opposite.  A question will be posted, the student solves it, and then nothing for several minutes.  It's hard to know what's going on, sometimes we think the computer has frozen because it takes so long to move to the next line in the script.  I suppose there are so many confused kids it just takes that long for TAs to respond to all the questions or address all the wrong answers?  

Your student should have a pad of paper and pencil ready to solve problems in lecture.  

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

I think I'll sign up for the AOPS Online for a two lesson trial to see how it goes. The benefit of the academy (much more expensive) is in-person interaction with the teacher, and the director of our local academy wasn't sure whether they would be in-person all year or go back to virtual.  

Do the kids typically read the entire chapter (4-5 lessons) before each weekly class? I just remember mine still types with 1 finger 😒. He fights tooth and nail in every typing or handwriting practice. Maybe I can sit with him through the classes and type his replies for him?   

[Not_a_Number]

21 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Do the kids typically read the entire chapter (4-5 lessons) before each weekly class? I just remember mine still types with 1 finger 😒. He fights tooth and nail in every typing or handwriting practice. Maybe I can sit with him through the classes and type his replies for him? 

Hmmmm. That typing speed might not fly 😛. But on the other hand, do you think this might motivate him to practice?? 

[Not_a_Number]

6 hours ago, daijobu said:

I've found just the opposite.  A question will be posted, the student solves it, and then nothing for several minutes.  It's hard to know what's going on, sometimes we think the computer has frozen because it takes so long to move to the next line in the script.  I suppose there are so many confused kids it just takes that long for TAs to respond to all the questions or address all the wrong answers?  

Your student should have a pad of paper and pencil ready to solve problems in lecture.  

Yeah, I've had kids complain about this. It really depends on a kid's solving and typing speed. 

Did this vary between different instructors? 

[SoCal_Bear]

I was mulling this over. If your son does well with pre-recorded lectures, and you aren't necessarily tied to AOPS. Derek Owens or Math Without Borders (Foerster's, no grading, but worked solutions provided). seem to be reasonable alternatives.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by calbear

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

10 hours ago, calbear said:

I was mulling this over. If your son does well with pre-recorded lectures, and you aren't necessarily tied to AOPS. Derek Owens or Math Without Borders (Foerster's, no grading, but worked solutions provided). seem to be reasonable alternatives.

 

 

Right, except we like to stay with AOPS 😂

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

12 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmmm. That typing speed might not fly 😛. But on the other hand, do you think this might motivate him to practice?? 

Hmmm I haven't thought about it that way. Maybe having mom looking and typing on HIS chat window will embarrass him enough to learn to do it himself🤔😂

[Not_a_Number]

24 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Hmmm I haven't thought about it that way. Maybe having mom looking and typing on HIS chat window will embarrass him enough to learn to do it himself🤔😂

It really might! Outside motivation is a useful thing... 

[SeaConquest]

22 hours ago, daijobu said:

I've found just the opposite.  A question will be posted, the student solves it, and then nothing for several minutes.  It's hard to know what's going on, sometimes we think the computer has frozen because it takes so long to move to the next line in the script.  I suppose there are so many confused kids it just takes that long for TAs to respond to all the questions or address all the wrong answers?  

Your student should have a pad of paper and pencil ready to solve problems in lecture.  

I believe that Jackie's daughter had the same experience with the classes moving too slowly for her. As I recall, Jackie had to prompt her when new questions would come up because it would move so slowly. I was always hands off with Sacha's classes, but he is not a gunner, so I don't think he minded that they moved slowly. 😊

[Jackie]

16 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I believe that Jackie's daughter had the same experience with the classes moving too slowly for her. As I recall, Jackie had to prompt her when new questions would come up because it would move so slowly. I was always hands off with Sacha's classes, but he is not a gunner, so I don't think he minded that they moved slowly. 😊

My response seems to have been eaten.
 

Yes, my daughter found the class slow and boring. She would answer a question, wait and wait for the answers to be pushed through, and tune out. For the record, she has dead average processing skills. Because there is zero audio, not even a chime/beep when answers are pushed through, she might not tune back in for a few questions. In addition, she would anticipate where a question was leading, calculate and even write up a proof, only to realize that the instructor wanted answers for every step along the way - so she had done the entire problem and then it would be led through step by step for 10+ minutes. 

On the upside, she used the extra time to learn lots of extra LaTeX.  (On the downside, she hasn’t found LaTeX to be very useful.)

Edited August 13, 2021 by Jackie

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, Jackie said:

My response seems to have been eaten.
 

Yes, my daughter found the class slow and boring. She would answer a question, wait and wait for the answers to be pushed through, and tune out. For the record, she has dead average processing skills. Because there is zero audio, not even a chime/beep when answers are pushed through, she might not tune back in for a few questions. In addition, she would anticipate where a question was leading, calculate and even write up a proof, only to realize that the instructor wanted answers for every step along the way - so she had done the entire problem and then it would be led through step by step for 10+ minutes. 
 

Yeah, unfortunately you can’t get ahead of the solutions, since it gives it away for everyone else. The classes aren’t so helpful for kids who simply want to work problems alone. I was like that myself, and I never found any math classes that useful, period.

 

3 hours ago, Jackie said:

On the upside, she used the extra time to learn lots of extra LaTeX.  (On the downside, she hasn’t found LaTeX to be very useful.)

LaTeX is pretty nice if you want up to write up math. That’s pretty much it.

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

Then it would be perfect if that's the case. My ds's fast solution can be countered by his slow typing speed🤣. He also likes to think of other ways to solve the same problem instead of just moving on.  

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

I enrolled my kid to the online course. There are A LOT of homework 😱.

The goal of the class is to learn study skills (writing, organizing, asking for help) and to obtain credits (may as well to make my money worth.) Is there a requirement on which Alcumus difficulty setting has to be?  Does he need to do Alcumus to blue, or is green ok before moving on to the challenging short-answer questions? During self-study, he did every practice, chapter review, and challenging problems in the books, but never did Alcumlus. For those who took the class, how many Alcumus problems were there till blue/green, assuming he gets all of them right?

Edited August 25, 2021 by OnceUponAFullMoon

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I enrolled my kid to the online course. There are A LOT of homework 😱.

The goal of the class is to learn study skills (writing, organizing, asking for help) and to obtain credits (may as well to make my money worth.) Is there a requirement on which Alcumus difficulty setting has to be?  Does he need to do Alcumus to blue, or is green ok before moving on to the challenging short-answer questions? During self-study, he did every practice, chapter review, and challenging problems in the books, but never did Alcumlus. For those who took the class, how many Alcumus problems were there till blue/green?

 

I mean, you can do whatever you like. If you want a grade from them later, then you'll want to get it to blue so the grade is high. 

The number of questions probably depends on how many he's getting right. 

And yeah, there's quite a lot of homework. 

[SeaConquest]

3 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I enrolled my kid to the online course. There are A LOT of homework 😱.

The goal of the class is to learn study skills (writing, organizing, asking for help) and to obtain credits (may as well to make my money worth.) Is there a requirement on which Alcumus difficulty setting has to be?  Does he need to do Alcumus to blue, or is green ok before moving on to the challenging short-answer questions? During self-study, he did every practice, chapter review, and challenging problems in the books, but never did Alcumlus. For those who took the class, how many Alcumus problems were there till blue/green, assuming he gets all of them right?

If he is getting them all correct, I would think that Alcumus + Challenge Problems would be less than what you were doing before, so I am surprised that you are finding it to be a lot of work. I came from a drill and kill background and the amount of homework in AoPS always strikes me as so little.

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

8 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

If he is getting them all correct, I would think that Alcumus + Challenge Problems would be less than what you were doing before, so I am surprised that you are finding it to be a lot of work. I came from a drill and kill background and the amount of homework in AoPS always strikes me as so little.

Yes but the class pace is much faster with average of 2 chapter work instead of 1.

[Not_a_Number]

18 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Yes but the class pace is much faster with average of 2 chapter work instead of 1.

Are you doing book problems, too, or just Challenge + Writing (+ Alcumus)? 

[SeaConquest]

20 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Are you doing book problems, too, or just Challenge + Writing (+ Alcumus)? 

Yes, I am confused. You are only supposed to do the Challenge Problems in the online system, plus Alcumus until it turns blue or green (your choice), plus the bi-weekly writing problem. So, while it covers a lot of information, most people (to my knowledge) are not also working through the book problems on top of the course material unless they are masochists. 😄

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

When he self studied with a book, he did all the problems in the book but with a slower pace (about 1 chapter per week.)
 

With the online class, he will need to complete the challenging problems+alcumus+writing problem that covers materials from around 2 chapters per week. It'd be nice to know how many alcumus problems there are on average to expect assuming (even if it's a big assuming) that he can get them all correct.

[SDMomof3]

8 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

When he self studied with a book, he did all the problems in the book but with a slower pace (about 1 chapter per week.)
 

With the online class, he will need to complete the challenging problems+alcumus+writing problem that covers materials from around 2 chapters per week. It'd be nice to know how many alcumus problems there are on average to expect assuming (even if it's a big assuming) that he can get them all correct.

He needs to get to green for an A in the class.

 

https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/handbook/current/documentation

[Not_a_Number]

13 hours ago, SDMomof3 said:

He needs to get to green for an A in the class.

 

https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/handbook/current/documentation

It is not my experience that all green will get to an A. You really want mostly blue. 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

Which teacher in AOPS academy matters due to teaching style. But does it matter which one you take from the online classes? 

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Which teacher in AOPS academy matters due to teaching style. But does it matter which one you take from the online classes? 

Yeah, they'll vary on their ability to ad-lib and their pacing. I'm sure it does matter less than for the academy, though. 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

What does this mean on one of the Alcumus problems? He never used Alcumus until the class. Does it mean if he gets this problem correct, he'll earn 117xp to get to level 23 Algebra?

Level 23 Algebra  +117 XP   Level 8 Intermediate Algebra  +55 XP

Accuracy +47, Stamina +75

TIA

[Not_a_Number]

48 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

What does this mean on one of the Alcumus problems? He never used Alcumus until the class. Does it mean if he gets this problem correct, he'll earn 117xp to get to level 23 Algebra?

Level 23 Algebra  +117 XP   Level 8 Intermediate Algebra  +55 XP

Accuracy +47, Stamina +75

TIA

I think it means the level for Algebra is 23, and the level for Intermediate Algebra is 8? And it also says how much you earn depending on which class you're doing it for? 

[SoCal_Bear]

Well, one thing to check is the settings in Alcumus to decide the difficulty setting. There are 4 settings: easy, normal, hard and insanely hard. A question can be rated for skill level for Intro Algebra and Intermediate Algebra. If you look at Report, you can see the color bars which tells you the progress on a specific concept to progress from red to orange to green to blue. Green is pass and blue is mastery. 
Apparently problems are assigned levels from 1-25. That's all I know about the levels. I am guessing that corresponds to the difficulty level. I only know that everyone starts off with level 1 questions. So I think this means that question would be level 23 difficulty for Algebra but level 8 (so much lower level of difficulty) for Intermediate Algebra. 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by calbear

[Teegarden]

You can think of "intermediate algebra" and "algebra" as two different "stats" that his character has. The problem is level 8 in intermediate algebra, and level 23 in algebra, and gives separate experience to each stat.

This is a little confusing because the two stats happen to be so similar. Normally it would be (e.g.) "number theory" and "geometry", where it makes more sense for the two aspects of the problem to be rated separately and give separate experience.

He can go to his profile to see his current level in each of the seven stats, and how much experience he needs to get to the next level.

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

22 minutes ago, Teegarden said:

You can think of "intermediate algebra" and "algebra" as two different "stats" that his character has. The problem is level 8 in intermediate algebra, and level 23 in algebra, and gives separate experience to each stat.

This is a little confusing because the two stats happen to be so similar. Normally it would be (e.g.) "number theory" and "geometry", where it makes more sense for the two aspects of the problem to be rated separately and give separate experience.

He can go to his profile to see his current level in each of the seven stats, and how much experience he needs to get to the next level.

Ooo thanks. I didn't know how to access his profile report without your link. Just curious why it shows his overall algebra level is 1 yet that specific problem assigned is level 23? Does it mean the question is at too high level? He's taking the class so alcumus is automatically set to normal. 

[SoCal_Bear]

nm

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by calbear

[Teegarden]

On 9/24/2021 at 11:57 AM, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Ooo thanks. I didn't know how to access his profile report without your link. Just curious why it shows his overall algebra level is 1 yet that specific problem assigned is level 23? Does it mean the question is at too high level? He's taking the class so alcumus is automatically set to normal. 

If he's never used Alcumus before the class, his level probably doesn't reflect how strong his math actually is -- he'll probably level up quickly for a while! Alcumus automatically gives him problems from topics that match what he's covering in class, so he's probably getting slightly more advanced problems than he otherwise would at level 1; but if he's struggling, it'll give him easier problems (even with the difficulty level set to normal).

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

Update: my son is keeping up with the online class. However, I still have to help him when he gets stuck. The message board isn't quite helpful. It is not an immediate back-n-forth chatting even during office hours. He explained what he did so far and how he got stuck. I know they shouldn't just give away the answers but the hints are usually too vague. Honestly, after a while of back n forth and he still didn't get it, the teacher should have realized he didn't fully understand the concept and should have pointed him to the specific lesson sections (in the book or class transcript) to re-read. I wish they would do what I have been doing since the purpose of a class is so that I don't have to teach.

Tell me what you think the question wants to know from you. Any vocabulary you don't know? ---- If he says he doesn't know a certain concept word, point him to that lesson to read.

What concepts do we learn this week? Which of those concepts do you think you should apply in this problem? That doesn't work, so have you tried this, or that? 

What [the problem inputs] make you think of using? What does this mean? etc. 

None of these give away the answer.

I assume it wouldn't be too much to ask considering the courses are a few hundreds of dollars each?

Now the pace isn't really an issue anymore, I wonder if the in-person academy class is even worth it, since they also use the message board for homework help. 

What do your kids do when they are stuck and/or do not understand a certain concept even after reading the book & attending the class? 

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by OnceUponAFullMoon

[daijobu]

Parents call me for just this reason.  😉  I've seen discussion board threads about the writing problems that were a nightmare to parse.  Multiple students posting to the same thread along with multiple TAs responding.  Sometimes variables get changed in the process leading to more confusion, not less. Students post their solutions only to be redacted later.  

I think a lot of the TA hints are scripts as well, so I don't think the responses are very personal.  

I do exactly what you describe.  I remind the students of what they learned that week.  "Lecture this week was about similar triangles.  Do you think similar triangles might be helpful here?" 

I know the transcript is available, but for younger students it can be a big ask to get them to reread the transcript.  So I'll sometimes review the transcript with the student, or just make up my own practice problems.   

I agree I think using the textbook is a better option for most students.  

[Not_a_Number]

9 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Update: my son is keeping up with the online class. However, I still have to help him when he gets stuck. The message board isn't quite helpful. It is not an immediate back-n-forth chatting even during office hours. He explained what he did so far and how he got stuck. I know they shouldn't just give away the answers but the hints are usually too vague. Honestly, after a while of back n forth and he still didn't get it, the teacher should have realized he didn't fully understand the concept and should have pointed him to the specific lesson sections (in the book or class transcript) to re-read. I wish they would do what I have been doing since the purpose of a class is so that I don't have to teach.

Tell me what you think the question wants to know from you. Any vocabulary you don't know? ---- If he says he doesn't know a certain concept word, point him to that lesson to read.

What concepts do we learn this week? Which of those concepts do you think you should apply in this problem? That doesn't work, so have you tried this, or that? 

What [the problem inputs] make you think of using? What does this mean? etc. 

None of these give away the answer.

I assume it wouldn't be too much to ask considering the courses are a few hundreds of dollars each?

Now the pace isn't really an issue anymore, I wonder if the in-person academy class is even worth it, since they also use the message board for homework help. 

What do your kids do when they are stuck and/or do not understand a certain concept even after reading the book & attending the class? 

 

Is he re-reading the relevant transcripts and sections?

In classes where I’m very engaged with the message board, I’d have very long exchanges with the kids, but I certainly wouldn’t spoon feed them by pointing to specific sections to re-read. Knowing what tool is relevant is part of learning the math.

[Not_a_Number]

9 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

What do your kids do when they are stuck and/or do not understand a certain concept even after reading the book & attending the class? 

You can try posting on here, though 😉 . I do like giving hints.