Update: I saw a counselor. :) What is acceptable? Grandparent “parenting” adult grandchildren

[popmom]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

No contact is a boundary.   
Boundaries are a spectrum.  from "anything goes" - to no contact.
narcissists/controlling people: loath and despise boundaries because it limits their control.  *everything* is about their control.

when you implement boundaries - you *do* *not* announce the boundary - you just implement it.  e.g. My brother: he's not allowed in my house, (ever, for any reason), I will only meet him places where I can walk out at a moments notice.  I'm willing to give him one chance at (me) changing the subject off of verboten subjects (I dont' bother telling him what those subjects are, as he'll just argue about them.), and if he goes back to the verboten subject, I end the conversation.  But I only talk to him a handful of times a year.  maybe.  he constantly sends me links to insane conspiracy theories (my favorite is the CERN scientists being chased by men in black helicopters because they opened a doorway to another dimension. yeah - he thought it was real).  I don't open any of them.  He has no access to my social media. (and never will.)

My brother was her golden child.  He's extremely toxic, and certainly falls on the narcissism spectrum.  (his first ex-wife did therapy as a victim  of domestic violence, even though he never hit her.)  Both of his daughters are no-contact with him (one has saved emails/texts/vm/etc for a restraining order against him), and his son thinks he's nuts.  Golden children are damaged by these people, please don't think they aren't.

 

THIS!

I also think one of my brother's biggest issues is he was the golden child, so he was revered and constantly had his ego stroked - but then he went out into the world and the world doesn't stroke your ego.  He comes across (to me) as super insecure, with a lot of false bravado to hide it.

yeah - people like this, despise boundaries.  You are their extension, and they live for control.  and they can't control you if *you* have boundaries.

You were blown off by the counselor?  my suggestion is include in your list of questions their experience with people parented by a narcissistic/personality-disordered person.

Both Dr Ramani, and Dr. Les Carter (both have you tube channels focused on narcissism) have said they learned very little about narcissism in their doctoral programs, but deal with it exclusively in their professional lives.  so - a lot of counselors (of any type) have inadequate experience with this type of manipulation.  

both dr. ramani and dr. carter have a referral service for finding someone in your are who knows what's what.

My husband and I watch both of them on Youtube. Dr. Ramani in particular is very helpful. Thank you for sharing your experience. It helps.

[popmom]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

Ok - my impression.  wow.  This had ZERO to do with parenting anyone.  This was about feeding your mother's ego.  She wanted the ego feed of saying ALL of her grandchildren were there.  (to top the other siblings.)

digging her nails in - to deliberately inflict pain - is physically abusive.

She's destroying her relationship with her grandchildren, and I can't imagine why anyone would want to have a relationship with her.   

I came to distrust my grandmother by the time I was 13, and it only got worse as time went on. I eventually erected hard boundaries so I controlled the relationship. She was likely a covert narcissist. - initially, my hard boundaries were one 15 minute phone call once a week as long as she was polite.  if she wasn't, I said goodbye and hung-up.  we weren't allowed to hang up on her.  most phone calls were less than half that, and one was three minutes.  As time went on, and she realized she'd lost control/influence over me - she lost interest in me and it became easier.

 

I strongly suggest you listen to Doctor Ramani's youtube videos, and see just how much starts ringing bells.  

 

eta: I'd also encourage you to read Boundaries: when to say yes, how to say no; by Townsend and Cloud.

and always remember:  the opinion's of toxic people are not worth anything. 

 don't try and teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

to the bolded...this is 100% accurate. It was about ego and control. 

I'm laughing inwardly thinking of if I were ever to call her again. I would have to immediately hang up because the first words out of her mouth would likely be how many days it had been since I called. She keeps up. Guilt tripping is her super power

[Carol in Cal.]

21 minutes ago, popmom said:

I want to know how to stop the horrible anxiety and dread when she triggers me. I'm actually pretty well read on the subject of narc, so intellectually I know exactly what she is doing, but I can't control how my body and mind reacts--still. I also need guidance on boundaries, parenting my own adult children, etc. since I clearly have not had that modeled for me. I need a mentor type person.

That feeling of dread is so bad that it makes me want to try to make everything ok for her, placate her, just so I can stop the horrible dread and anxiety I feel. I'm learning. This time I was able to fight that urge to go "make her happy". I had to make the decision about my dad--not worrying about how this affects him. That's really what has been holding me back in the process of healing. Once I did that, I was able to allow myself to take a break, ride out the dread/anxiety, and actually consider going NC.

One thing is certain. She will never ruin my holidays again. Last year was so nice because we didn't have a big get together due to covid. 

Can you think of her as a toddler?  With toddlers you always have to project calm, calm you don't always feel, right?

And then after a while, after projecting calm a bunch, you start to FEEL calm.  Because you've got this.

I think that where you are going to head with her is not to anger, although you'll go through that, but to indifference.  Your path to that might be different than other people's but I'll bet that is where you go.  Honestly she sounds so nuts that I'll be that this will be a great relief.  

[Rosie_0801]

33 minutes ago, popmom said:

I want to know how to stop the horrible anxiety and dread when she triggers me. I'm actually pretty well read on the subject of narc, so intellectually I know exactly what she is doing, but I can't control how my body and mind reacts--still. I also need guidance on boundaries, parenting my own adult children, etc. since I clearly have not had that modeled for me. I need a mentor type person.

That feeling of dread is so bad that it makes me want to try to make everything ok for her, placate her, just so I can stop the horrible dread and anxiety I feel. I'm learning. This time I was able to fight that urge to go "make her happy". I had to make the decision about my dad--not worrying about how this affects him. That's really what has been holding me back in the process of healing. Once I did that, I was able to allow myself to take a break, ride out the dread/anxiety, and actually consider going NC.

One thing is certain. She will never ruin my holidays again. Last year was so nice because we didn't have a big get together due to covid. 

You may not ever entirely get rid of that anxiety, but avoidance is a good way of reducing the opportunities she has. Another is to practice feeling anger. Work on that "Who the hell does she think she is to treat ME like that?!!!" and "I don't even like the old baggage anyway!" Anger doesn't feel great either, but it's a step on the road to recovery. (Once you get the hang of that, you start working on apathy.) 

Your dad is a flying monkey, whether he meant to be or not, so he's not your ally.

Books to read:
Un##ck Your Boundaries Workbook is good. (Not my choice of language, but I worked through it with my dd and it has helped us both.)
The Tao of Trauma, chapters 6-10. One of the most valuable books I've read. 
 

[gardenmom5]

57 minutes ago, popmom said:

to the bolded...this is 100% accurate. It was about ego and control. 

I'm laughing inwardly thinking of if I were ever to call her again. I would have to immediately hang up because the first words out of her mouth would likely be how many days it had been since I called. She keeps up. Guilt tripping is her super power

I used to joke my grandmother's guilt trips sent postcards.   I guess that might show my age . . . . . . 

45 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

You may not ever entirely get rid of that anxiety, but avoidance is a good way of reducing the opportunities she has. Another is to practice feeling anger. Work on that "Who the hell does she think she is to treat ME like that?!!!" and "I don't even like the old baggage anyway!" Anger doesn't feel great either, but it's a step on the road to recovery. (Once you get the hang of that, you start working on apathy.) 

Your dad is a flying monkey, whether he meant to be or not, so he's not your ally.

Books to read:
Un##ck Your Boundaries Workbook is good. (Not my choice of language, but I worked through it with my dd and it has helped us both.)
The Tao of Trauma, chapters 6-10. One of the most valuable books I've read. 
 

Rosie - we really need to be able to like your posts . ..  . 
 

I eventually came to realize my grandfather was her flying monkey.  He was also abused by her.  e.g. Whenever there was a large group and he would say something, she would *immediately* interrupt him and start talking until he shut up, bit his tongue, and turned his head away.  My mother told me the awful things she used to say to him, even when my mother was an adult.

eta: as soon as he retired, she stopped driving, so he had to be available to drive her places.  

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

I want to know how to stop the horrible anxiety and dread when she triggers me. I'm actually pretty well read on the subject of narc, so intellectually I know exactly what she is doing, but I can't control how my body and mind reacts--still. I 

Do you feel like Pavlov's dog?   I did EMDR for the triggers from the CTPSD she left me with.  I highly recommend EMDR.  Just . . . wow. . . . 

another thing that has proven to work is: trauma release exercises.  

[Indigo Blue]

37 minutes ago, popmom said:

would have to immediately hang up because the first words out of her mouth would likely be how many days it had been since I called. She keeps up. Guilt tripping is her super power

My mom once said, when I was just in the beginning stages of limiting contact  and having not called for a couple weeks, “Did you forget you had a mother?” 

But I kept it up. Just basically giving up on trying to be close and connect. No longer telling her personal things. No offering my opinions on most topics. Learning to observe while guarding my heart. Learning to realize that there’s always a good chance, when drama is involved, there is usually going to be some exaggeration and possibly fibs as she tells her side of the story on things. 

The last time she was unfairly angry at me, I put everything I had learned to use. This was last summer. When she became angry and started to escalate, I felt my body starting to go into that panicked mode, but I mentally just made myself stop. I did not escalate. I stayed neutral and used gray rock. After she calmed a bit, I gathered my things and drove home. Normally, I’d cry for the whole hour drive. This time, strangely, I felt upset, but I was ok. I really was ok. I knew things had changed inside me. 

This didn’t happen overnight. You can get there, too. It takes time. The most important thing is to realize it’s really, really not YOU. Like Gardenmom said, it’s the biggest relief of a lifetime. Start observing and learning what it looks like when she gaslights or manipulates. Put yourself on the outside and look at the whole picture. Trust your instinct. Someone here once told me that.  You’ll get there. I think if you can find a good counselor that could help, it would be great. You’re lucky you have this insight and you want to help yourself and your children instead of being blind to it and possibly repeating patterns. Give yourself time. It’s hard. 

[Indigo Blue]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

indifference

Yes. This is it.

[Indigo Blue]

54 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

You may not ever entirely get rid of that anxiety, but avoidance is a good way of reducing the opportunities she has. Another is to practice feeling anger. Work on that "Who the hell does she think she is to treat ME like that?!!!" and "I don't even like the old baggage anyway!" Anger doesn't feel great either, but it's a step on the road to recovery. (Once you get the hang of that, you start working on apathy.) 

Like!

[popmom]

24 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Do you feel like Pavlov's dog?   I did EMDR for the triggers from the CTPSD she left me with.  I highly recommend EMDR.  Just . . . wow. . . . 

another thing that has proven to work is: trauma release exercises.  

Yes! That’s what it’s like! Conditioned response

Edited August 3, 2021 by popmom

[popmom]

@Rosie_0801thank you for the book recommendations. I was not familiar with either. 

I’m really overwhelmed by the response from EACH of you. I’ve honestly never felt so heard and encouraged in my entire life. It makes me cry—in a good way. Thank you.

Edited August 3, 2021 by popmom

[popmom]

I need some advice.

I found out that my mother’s sister is dying. The family has brought in hospice.

My husband thinks I should call my mother. I’m not sure. I don’t think it’s a good idea. 

Deleted personal stuff about dd. I’m just second guessing myself. It’s complicated and messy, and i just need to learn how to ride out these waves of uncertainty.

 

I think I have decided on a counselor to try, but I haven’t made an appointment yet. That’s why I’m asking here. Thanks in advance and apologies for more drama. 
 

ETA I just reread the thread. So now I feel kinda stupid for asking about this. I’m worried about being cold and heartless. But she has no issue being heartless to me. I haven’t spoken to her in 3 weeks. She hasn’t tried to contact me either. 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by popmom

[Shoeless]

44 minutes ago, popmom said:

I need some advice.

I found out that my mother’s sister is dying. The family has brought in hospice.

My husband thinks I should call my mother. I’m not sure. I don’t think it’s a good idea. 

Something I didn’t share about my mother’s text tirade that night…Toward the end, she said, “I have not even mentioned she (dd) goes around telling people she’s bisexual. I think I have been pretty self controlled. You know I really love (dd name). This hurts me. You do not get to corner the market on hurt feelings like (random fam member that she hates)”. 

I feel the need to clarify that I in no way suggested or communicated that my feelings were hurt. I did say that what she did to my dd hurt HER (dd).

I did not know about dd being bi. I’m sure my mother knows I didn’t know when she said it. I texted my dd the next day. She was so angry. She said that my nephew figured it out while they were briefly roommates. I don’t know the details, and I won’t get into how he betrayed my dd’s trust when he told my mother. My dd was furious at the time and cut him off—blocked him on everything. But she never told me. She said she doesn’t “go around telling people that”. She doesn’t date women. That’s why she didn’t want to tell us— her family. 
 

That was the straw the broke the camel’s back for me. That’s when I started considering going no contact. That was such a betrayal. 

So now that I’ve shared a bigger picture of the current situation, how do I handle my mother’s (soon to be) loss? 
 

I think I have decided on a counselor to try, but I haven’t made an appointment yet. That’s why I’m asking here. Thanks in advance and apologies for more drama. 
 

ETA I just reread the thread. So now I feel kinda stupid for asking about this. I’m worried about being cold and heartless. But she has no issue being heartless to me. I haven’t spoken to her in 3 weeks. She hasn’t tried to contact me either. 

 

 

My FIL was a rotten, drunken, abusive man. Just awful. He died a few years ago, and my SIL was very upset about it because it was her dad. My DH was not upset about it, because he bore the brunt of FIL's rage, while SIL was spared.  I really hated the guy for what he did to DH and did not care that he died.  It felt like a lie to say anything kind or positive about him; if he had good qualities, he chose not to show them to DH.  But SIL was upset and the situation called for some gesture of kindness toward her.  So I told her "I am sorry for your loss". And I meant it. It was her loss and I was sorry she had to experience it, but it as not our loss.  This was the most truthful thing I could tell her, given the history. 

What is the most truthful thing you could say to your mother about your aunt? 

ETA: You don't have to call. You could send a card or flowers. Your aunt's condition doesn't mean you have to re-open the relationship with your mother. It doesn't wipe the slate clean.  Maybe the most truthful thing you can do is send flowers with a card that says "thinking of you".  It doesn't have to be anything more than that. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by MissLemon

[Slache]

On 8/2/2021 at 12:09 AM, popmom said:

But at the time, it put me in bed for 2 days. 

This woman has far too much power over you and should not be in your life. Your normal meter is off and you are are making excuses for inexcusable behavior and allowing her to abuse your children.

I 100% understand exactly why you're doing what you're doing, but you're wrong. I say this not in judgement, but because I'm right there with you, but I wish someone had said it to me a long time ago.

[popmom]

16 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

My FIL was a rotten, drunken, abusive man. Just awful. He died a few years ago, and my SIL was very upset about it because it was her dad. My DH was not upset about it, because he bore the brunt of FIL's rage, while SIL was spared.  I really hated the guy for what he did to DH and did not care that he died.  It felt like a lie to say anything kind or positive about him; if he had good qualities, he chose not to show them to DH.  But SIL was upset and the situation called for some gesture of kindness toward her.  So I told her "I am sorry for your loss". And I meant it. It was her loss and I was sorry she had to experience it, but it as not our loss.  This was the most truthful thing I could tell her, given the history. 

What is the most truthful thing you could say to your mother about your aunt? 

ETA: You don't have to call. You could send a card or flowers. Your aunt's condition doesn't mean you have to re-open the relationship with your mother. It doesn't wipe the slate clean.  Maybe the most truthful thing you can do is send flowers with a card that says "thinking of you".  It doesn't have to be anything more than that. 

Thank you.

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

I’m worried about being cold and heartless. But she has no issue being heartless to me. I haven’t spoken to her in 3 weeks. She hasn’t tried to contact me either. 

If you are close to your mother's sister and her family, you could directly get in touch with them and offer your sympathies, support, help etc. Your mother has nothing to do with your DD's personal life... and many narcs who will trample boundaries will respect them if they know that they will face bad outcomes (like No Contact) if they violate boundaries. It is just the way they are.

[Carol in Cal.]

2 hours ago, popmom said:

I need some advice.

I found out that my mother’s sister is dying. The family has brought in hospice.

My husband thinks I should call my mother. I’m not sure. I don’t think it’s a good idea. 

Deleted personal stuff about dd. I’m just second guessing myself. It’s complicated and messy, and i just need to learn how to ride out these waves of uncertainty.

 

I think I have decided on a counselor to try, but I haven’t made an appointment yet. That’s why I’m asking here. Thanks in advance and apologies for more drama. 
 

ETA I just reread the thread. So now I feel kinda stupid for asking about this. I’m worried about being cold and heartless. But she has no issue being heartless to me. I haven’t spoken to her in 3 weeks. She hasn’t tried to contact me either. 

 

 

It sounds to me like you don't need to call your mother.  You need to reach out to your aunt somehow, calling or sending a card or something.

Don't ever let your mother be in any way a gate keeper for any other member of your family again.  NOT EVER.  Approach them directly.  It doesn't matter if your mother loses her mind over this.  In fact, her losing her mind over this might show others, without your having to tell them, how crazy she is.  That is not a bad thing.  

 

[popmom]

6 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It sounds to me like you don't need to call your mother.  You need to reach out to your aunt somehow, calling or sending a card or something.

Don't ever let your mother be in any way a gate keeper for any other member of your family again.  NOT EVER.  Approach them directly.  It doesn't matter if your mother loses her mind over this.  In fact, her losing her mind over this might show others, without your having to tell them, how crazy she is.  That is not a bad thing.  

 

I agree.
 

My husband thinks I should call to check on my mom…but I’m going to go with a card as Miss Lemon suggested.

My mom is not gatekeeper between me and her sister. I’ll definitely contact my aunt, uncle, and cousin directly. Is that what you meant?

Edited August 8, 2021 by popmom

[Eos]

3 hours ago, popmom said:

My husband thinks I should call to check on my mom

Gently, it sounds like maybe your husband is not fully on board with your clear need for boundaries with your mom.  Maybe he's just reacting with how he thinks good husbands respond when a family is facing a death.  I hope he can give you the support you need.

[Indigo Blue]

Popmom, it’s not about being cold and heartless. It’s about protecting yourself mentally from a toxic person. I, too, always feel that way when I am doing things to enforce boundaries, so I know how that feels. This is probably why people who are sensitive about setting boundaries are taken advantage of. It’s a different feeling from what you are used to, but it’s something you can overcome.

[saraha]

8 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It sounds to me like you don't need to call your mother.  You need to reach out to your aunt somehow, calling or sending a card or something.

Don't ever let your mother be in any way a gate keeper for any other member of your family again.  NOT EVER.  Approach them directly.  It doesn't matter if your mother loses her mind over this.  In fact, her losing her mind over this might show others, without your having to tell them, how crazy she is.  That is not a bad thing.  

eta: never mind missed where you said she is not the gatekeeper

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by saraha

[gardenmom5]

11 hours ago, Slache said:

This woman has far too much power over you and should not be in your life. Your normal meter is off and you are are making excuses for inexcusable behavior and allowing her to abuse your children.

I 100% understand exactly why you're doing what you're doing, but you're wrong. I say this not in judgement, but because I'm right there with you, but I wish someone had said it to me a long time ago.

this.
reach out to your aunt and her family.  They are the ones that are going through this.

when my grandfather died, my grandmother sobbed and sobbed at the funeral. she wouldn't even look at people who tried to speak with her.  i'd never seen her like that - not ever.  and "the how", was just really odd for anyone.  (my father committed suicide when I was 12 - I knew what real grief was.)  I finally realized she was performing for the crowd what she thought the crowd expected from "the grieving widow".

narcissists take opportunities to make things about themselves - this is her sister, not her.  this is her sister's family - not hers.

9 hours ago, popmom said:

I agree.
 

My husband thinks I should call to check on my mom…but I’m going to go with a card as Miss Lemon suggested.

My mom is not gatekeeper between me and her sister. I’ll definitely contact my aunt, uncle, and cousin directly. Is that what you meant?

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in that he doesn't understand the realities of life with a narcissist.

yes - contact your aunt/family directly.  

and just send a card (and/or flowers) to your mother.  No actual voice contact.  boundaries boundaries boundaries.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

10 hours ago, popmom said:

I agree.
 

My husband thinks I should call to check on my mom…but I’m going to go with a card as Miss Lemon suggested.

My mom is not gatekeeper between me and her sister. I’ll definitely contact my aunt, uncle, and cousin directly. Is that what you meant?

Yes, it is.  Maybe I misinterpreted your post to mean that you were only going to contact your mom.

[gardenmom5]

11 hours ago, MissLemon said:

My FIL was a rotten, drunken, abusive man. Just awful. He died a few years ago, and my SIL was very upset about it because it was her dad. My DH was not upset about it, because he bore the brunt of FIL's rage, while SIL was spared.  I really hated the guy for what he did to DH and did not care that he died.  It felt like a lie to say anything kind or positive about him; if he had good qualities, he chose not to show them to DH.  But SIL was upset and the situation called for some gesture of kindness toward her.  So I told her "I am sorry for your loss". And I meant it. It was her loss and I was sorry she had to experience it, but it as not our loss.  This was the most truthful thing I could tell her, given the history. 

What is the most truthful thing you could say to your mother about your aunt? 

ETA: You don't have to call. You could send a card or flowers. Your aunt's condition doesn't mean you have to re-open the relationship with your mother. It doesn't wipe the slate clean.  Maybe the most truthful thing you can do is send flowers with a card that says "thinking of you".  It doesn't have to be anything more than that. 

I'm sorry.

when mil was dying, (it was known that day was the day) - dh needed to leave town, get out and just go. (he'd visited her a few days earlier, and she was "with it".)  So, we left for the day.  Sil wanted (expected) him there, at the hospital and came across as "put out" he wouldn't come.

but - dh bore the brunt of handling her after fil's death. It cost him a lot. He felt he was protecting teenage siblings.  sil (youngest) never really had to keep her in-line until sil was already a grandmother and owned her own home.  (and dh still ended up doing stuff because sil couldn't.) and by then, mil had slowed considerably due to age.  (and sil was getting paid to take care of her. ***)  she was also "the favorite".  

so yeah - sil was be all upset, and dh just felt relief.

*** niece (sil's dd) and I were once chatting about caring for mil. (mil lived with us for a year right after 1dd was born. she was still a busy bee in those days) I commented i wouldn't do it for $1M.  Niece added "a day". 

[popmom]

I had my first appointment today with my new counselor. She is very well known in my Presbyterian circles. I was very anxious about seeing a "Christian Counselor" but she was wonderful! She really gets it. She told me the most loving and God honoring thing I can do for my parents right now is to distance myself from them. No need to worry about boundaries even--at this point. (I had written out a detailed history of our relationship prior to the appointment). I was so worried a Xtian counselor would prioritize reconciliation over my healing, but no... She has read the Body Keeps Score The Covert Passive Agressive Narc,, etc-- all the good books. She said "that's science". And she said she would have wanted me to read them if I hadn't already.

I have been seen and heard, and I feel a huge weight has been lifted off of me. I am very confident she will help me heal--at least that is our focus right now--healing trauma.

I also want to thank the boardies who spoke very frankly to this subject. I needed that to give me the courage to take these next steps.

Edited September 16, 2021 by popmom

[Kassia]

@popmomso happy for you!  What a wonderful update.  ❤️

 

[Garga]

On 9/16/2021 at 7:01 PM, popmom said:

I had my first appointment today with my new counselor. She is very well known in my Presbyterian circles. I was very anxious about seeing a "Christian Counselor" but she was wonderful! She really gets it. She told me the most loving and God honoring thing I can do for my parents right now is to distance myself from them. No need to worry about boundaries even--at this point. (I had written out a detailed history of our relationship prior to the appointment). I was so worried a Xtian counselor would prioritize reconciliation over my healing, but no... She has read the Body Keeps Score The Covert Passive Agressive Narc,, etc-- all the good books. She said "that's science". And she said she would have wanted me to read them if I hadn't already.

I have been seen and heard, and I feel a huge weight has been lifted off of me. I am very confident she will help me heal--at least that is our focus right now--healing trauma.

I also want to thank the boardies who spoke very frankly to this subject. I needed that to give me the courage to take these next steps.

That’s just wonderful! Thank you for the update!