Update: I saw a counselor. :) What is acceptable? Grandparent “parenting” adult grandchildren

[popmom]

I’m not sure what to ask. I guess I should just give a specific example. 
 

3 years ago my extended family threw a HUGE birthday party for my grandmother (my dad’s mom)..She was turning 90. It was planned in advance. I told my children—2 of whom were away at college—to put it on their calendar and plan on attending. They adore their great grandmother, so of course they planned to come. 
 

For whatever reason my mother was obsessed with making sure ALL of my kids were attending this party—particularly my identical twins (the ones in college). My mother has a way of setting up one of them up in a way that guarantees that she will eventually fail at something my mother wants her to do. This was one of those situations. My mother texted my girls repeatedly, often in all caps, to tell them they HAD to be there. I was not aware she was doing this until after the party.
 

Long story short, one of my twins couldn’t/wouldn’t make it. 
 

The birthday party was great. There were over a hundred people. My dd wasn’t the only grandchild/great grand that was a no show. My grandmother didn’t care! She was having the time of her life! 
 

My mother was furious. She glared at me every chance she got during the party. I vaguely recall her telling me how I needed to “handle” this wayward child of mine. I let her know that we would handle it (dh and I). Not that I thought it needed to be “handled”. My mother didn’t (and still to this day doesn’t) think I disciplined this adult child enough over this incident. Clearly she had made some huge issue of a non issue IMO. 
 

The next time my dd went to visit my parents, my mother met dd at the door, grabbed her arm, digging her nails in, and dragged her into the kitchen and laid into her in a seething tone. Telling her (and I only recently found out what she said) that dd was becoming a TERRIBLE person—among other things. For not coming to my grandmother’s bday. 
 

Now I know good and well that this was all about my mother. She doesn’t even like my grandmother (her mil). 
 

My mother still brings this up saying that I think my kids can do no wrong. And it’s a good thing they were homeschooled because I would be (((that parent))). I could go on. So just laying all that nonsense aside (because there’s way, way too much to unpack there lol), when is it appropriate for a grandparent to intervene when they think their grandchild has done wrong? Say starting in the teen years and up. 
 

My mother was displeased with me recently, and she sent a slew of vile text messages with all the gas lighting and projection she could muster. This was one thing that came up. I told her she was wrong to do that and that she should apologize to my dd. Of course that just made her even angrier. Above paragraph sort of goes into her response a bit. “I didn’t SHAME your PRECIOUS (dd’s name)!” 
 

As I’m contemplating how to handle our relationship, because I cannot do this anymore, I need to know from “normal” people what’s appropriate and what’s not. Surely I’m not out of line to expect her to NOT punish/parent my adult children? 
 

eta: this dd has had very limited contact w my mother since the incident.

eta2: feel free to quote. My mother stalks me online regularly. It’s not out of the realm that she could figure out I’m on here. I don’t care any more. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by popmom

[Danae]

She’s crazypants.  Adults don’t “discipline” and “punish” each other.  Not grandparents and not parents.  The idea that you should have been punishing your adult daughter at all for something she was unable to do, let alone whatever amount you mother thinks is “enough” is bonkers.

 

[JennyD]

OP, your mom sounds utterly awful and nothing she is doing is remotely ok.  So sorry that you and your DDs have to deal with this.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by JennyD

[popmom]

Just now, Danae said:

She’s crazypants.  Adults don’t “discipline” and “punish” each other.  Not grandparents and not parents.  The idea that you should have been punishing your adult daughter at all for something she was unable to do, let alone whatever amount you mother thinks is “enough” is bonkers.

 

Well you see how effective the gaslighting is—that I’m here needing someone to tell me this. 
 

[Danae]

1 minute ago, popmom said:

Well you see how effective the gaslighting is—that I’m here needing someone to tell me this. 
 

That is why I decided to be blunt.  Don’t doubt yourself on this.  She’s the one out of line, not you.

[popmom]

1 minute ago, JennyD said:

If a grown grandchild is doing something that directly affects the grandparent, I think it's reasonable for a grandparent to say something. I'm thinking of, say a grandchild speaking rudely to a grandparent, or borrowing the grandparent's car and bringing it back late.

However, there's a difference between "appropriate" and "effective."  I recall my grandmother calling me up when i had just returned from living abroad and berating me for not calling her sooner. i don't think she was out of line vis a vis my own mother, exactly, but it also very much did not result in me calling her with any greater frequency.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

All that said, OP, your mom sounds utterly awful and nothing she is doing is remotely ok.  So sorry that you and your DDs have to deal with this.

 

Thank you. See this makes so much sense. I mean my own grandparents never even did this to me. It seems so obvious, but I still doubt myself sometimes.

[popmom]

2 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

Toxic behavior for sure. Your poor dd. 😢
 

If I were in your shoes, I would definitely let my dc know  - all of them, not just the one she seems to target - that it’s perfectly ok for them to block her communications (phone/text, email). 
 

You have to decide for yourself what boundary to set with your mom, but you need to also give your adult children freedom to set their own boundaries as well.  They may choose a different level of interaction than you choose, but should have your reassurance that it’s okay to set hard boundaries and not feel beholden to a relationship with someone who vilely mistreats them. 

Oh definitely. We all are on the same page about that. They can decide for themselves what level of contact they are comfortable with. I’m currently contemplating going no contact myself, and I’ve asked for their input on that. They understand and support whatever I decide. We are currently working through different scenarios. They feel bad for my dad. I get that. That’s why I have made every effort humanly possible to redeem this relationship. I’ve always seen him as another one of her victims, but he’s an adult. I cannot continue sacrificing my health when he continues to enable my mother. 
 

 

[RootAnn]

No grandparents should be parenting an adult grandchild unless they raised said grandchild & said grandchild also severely needs an intervention (drugs, mental illness, etc). 

Your mom is completely out of line. I'd likely draw a hard line with her as to what you will put up with and what you won't. I'd start with no criticism of your kids & no criticism of how you parented your kids. She got her chance to raise you & I'm going to guess she wasn't perfect. If she wants to see you or them or receive communication from you/them, she will immediately desist from her rants. This is her only warning. If she does it again with any of you, you are going completely no contact & will encourage all your kids to do the same.

She likely will push this to see what you will do. I'd immediately block her & let all my kids know what you did.

And then I'd be able to live my life without that woman gaslighting me anymore. (But probably not the end if the trouble).

[Shoeless]

I'm trying to think if there was ever a time my grandparents disciplined or punished me. I think the only times it happened were when I lived with them full time, (when I was a little kid). 

But as an adult? No way. If they were mad or disappointed about something I did, they told me how my actions impacted them. And then we sorted it out and moved on.  

What your mom is doing is absolutely bananas and not normal.

[popmom]

@RootAnn there can be no boundaries. I really think it would be pointless to try. I mean if I did say “we can have a relationship if xyz”…she would go atomic bomb on me. I’m not sure I want to go through that. 
 

Way, way back when that book came out by Cloud and Townsend, Boundaries…My mother RAILED against that book like it was the downfall of civilization. She still brings it up to this day. 
 

I will say…I think it’s possible she would accept certain boundaries from the “golden” grandchildren. That is one of the things I’m discussing with my kids rn…for them still having some contact.

Edited August 2, 2021 by popmom

[Carol in Cal.]

This is absolutely crazy and over the top.

First of all, no one gets to physically assault someone in my home. Not ever.  That would have been an immediate, stop right now and apologize from me, and if that didn’t happen instantly, I would kick them out.  No discussion.  Just, done.  Since she did this at her house, I’d back your daughter in any action she wants to take in self defense—demanding an apology and a commitment never to do that again would be completely reasonable if she wants to continue the relationship.  Identifying that action as the reason not to continue the relationship would be fine, too, and if you know me you know I almost never say things like that.

Secondly, (sorry about this but I feel like it’s feedback that maybe you need), I would not have had the conversation about ‘dealing with it’ with her at all.  I would have said, I’m sorry she can’t come, too.  It’s too bad isn’t it?  And that would have been it.  It’s a pass the bean dip situation.

Thirdly, her glaring at you at the event all night was completely unreasonable and over the top.  That is just ridiculous.  If anything SHE ruined the party by doing that.  It’s rude and uncalled for, and just in general, you don’t get furious at a parent of a grown child for something the child does.  You might get mad at the child, but not the parent.  That’s ridiculous, utterly.

Fourth, the next time she starts in on your parenting, I’d state calmly that that is not a topic I am ever willing to discuss again, and I would make that stick.  Flat out.  I’d leave her presence or say goodbye and hang up if she did that again.  Your kids are all grown right?  This is water over the dam.  It’s rude and harsh to bring it up at all, and there isn’t anything to fix now so it’s moot and just trying to pick a fight.  Don’t give her the fight but don’t take the lectures either.

[popmom]

I truly appreciate the feedback. I need it. No one is a perfect parent, but I have few regrets in the way I have parented my kids. The things I regret are when I listened to my mother’s parenting advice. 
 

She was emotionally/verbally/occasionally physically abusive to me growing up, so I was very determined to break that cycle with my own children. She just cannot stand that I don’t parent the way she did. I posted something related to parenting on my Instagram story recently that really spoke to me personally as a mom to an autistic teen. It wasn’t my content. I was just sharing because it was so helpful. Part of her text rant the other day…she brought it up and how “holier than thou” I am. Also that I must be in one of those “hyper grace churches” so I need to either change my church or change my meds. 🙄 When I read it all over again it actually makes me laugh. But at the time, it put me in bed for 2 days. 
 

for the record my church is not part of a “hyper grace” movement. Not that it matters. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by popmom

[Shoeless]

@popmom Your mom sounds utterly crackers, and if you want to simply not deal with her for awhile, I think that's ok and doesn't make you a bad person. 

You don't have to cut her off forever, or make a big declaration to her about it. You can just stop dealing with her for awhile. Treat her like an annoying telemarketer. You see the number pop up, and say "Nope. My extended car warranty is just fine", and then ignore the call. 

I'd probably start by phasing her off your Instagram feed and other social media. If blocking her is too bold, maybe adjust the audience so she only sees really boring things there, like chicken casserole recipes.  

Edited August 2, 2021 by MissLemon

[popmom]

4 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

@popmom Your mom sounds utterly crackers, and if you want to simply not deal with her for awhile, I think that's ok and doesn't make you a bad person. 

You don't have to cut her off forever, or make a big declaration to her about it. You can just stop dealing with her for awhile. Treat her like an annoying telemarketer. You see the unknown number pop up, and say "Nope. My extended car warranty is just fine", and then ignore the call. 

I'd probably start by phasing her off your instagram feed and other social media. If blocking her is too bold, maybe adjust the audience so she only sees really boring things there, like chicken casserole recipes.  

LOL definitely doing that with social media. My daughters have already restricted what she can see on their Instagram. I actually rarely post anything on social media—much less religious or parenting content. My Instagram is extremely boring. But it’s gonna get even more boring for my mother!

eta: like all people with personality disorders, my mother can act completely normal and civil and even caring at times. So the cognitive dissonance is strong. Things had been going really well. I stupidly thought something had changed.

Edited August 2, 2021 by popmom

[prairiewindmomma]

If anyone touched or laid into my children, it would not end well for them.
 

Your mom is abusive, and I don’t hang around abusive people and I sure as heck don’t allow them anywhere near my kids.

You let water pass under the bridge since the incident by maintaining contact. I think you get to choose how you move forward. Personally, I would set boundaries and I wouldn’t be at all surprised when your mom refuses to abide by them. What you do from there is up to you, but if you haven’t read up on the power dynamics of narcissists, I would. I am not calling your mom a narcissist, but putting the behaviors in context has helped me let go of the guilt of not being able to maintain a relationship with certain family members. I didn’t cause the problem, it’s not my fault, I can’t fix it…and the healthiest thing I can do is just walk away.

[Melissa Louise]

It's all inappropriate. 

Take a break from mom, and tell adult kids to take a break too. 

Think about going low/no contact. 

[popmom]

I should add that I have always known I had to be emotionally detached from her. It’s been that way for my entire adult life. At first she would often tell me (when she was upset w me over whatever) that I was a “cold bitch” or I was “sick and needed therapy”. Nowadays she has mellowed and she just refers to me condescendingly as “a very private person”. 
I think it’s becoming clear that I need more than emotional detachment. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by popmom

[Kassia]

I'm really sorry and glad you posted.  I agree with the others on the advice given and the fact that she is way out of line.  Big hugs to you - I know how stressful this is.  

 

[popmom]

29 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I'm really sorry and glad you posted.  I agree with the others on the advice given and the fact that she is way out of line.  Big hugs to you - I know how stressful this is.  

 

Thank you, Kassia. It really is so stressful. I sincerely want nothing but good things for my parents. I have always wanted that. I’m not angry or bitter. I mean…sure, I get angry in the moment when she attacks, but I truly don’t walk around angry all the time. I don’t think I’m better or superior.  She has a disorder that was brought on by trauma she experienced growing up. Her mother was not expected to live very long after my mother was born due to a serious chronic illness. She grew up fearing her mother could die at any moment. I’m NOT excusing anything, but it breaks my heart. So much brokenness. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by popmom

[popmom]

I really appreciate that you all would take time to help me think through this. You give me strength. 

[Rosie_0801]

It's okay to snarl "Don't you speak about my children that way EVER AGAIN" and slam the phone down.

Just sayin'

[popmom]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It's okay to snarl "Don't you speak about my children that way EVER AGAIN" and slam the phone down.

Just sayin'

Aaaaaahhhhh I so wish I could go back in time and do this. I won’t miss the next opportunity believe me.

Actually, I did this once in my early 30s. And unfortunately I did not slam the phone down. I let her unleash on me. I ended up in the fetal position in the corner of my room. But that was the first time I actually started to realize that I wasn’t the crazy person she was making me out to be. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by popmom

[Rosie_0801]

9 minutes ago, popmom said:

Aaaaaahhhhh I so wish I could go back in time and do this. I won’t miss the next opportunity believe me.

Actually, I did this once in my early 30s. And unfortunately I did not slam the phone down. I let her unleash on me. I ended up in the fetal position in the corner of my room. But that was the first time I actually started to realize that I wasn’t the crazy person she was making me out to be. 

You'll get better with practice. 😛

[popmom]

12 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

You'll get better with practice. 😛

Ha! Let’s hope! 
 

Right now I’m hearing SpongeBob Squarepants saying, “I’m ready! I’m ready!” lol totally revealing mine and my kids’ geekiness.

Edited August 2, 2021 by popmom

[Kassia]

3 hours ago, popmom said:

Thank you, Kassia. It really is so stressful. I sincerely want nothing but good things for my parents. I have always wanted that. I’m not angry or bitter. I mean…sure, I get angry in the moment when she attacks, but I truly don’t walk around angry all the time. I don’t think I’m better or superior.  She has a disorder that was brought on by trauma she experienced growing up. Her mother was not expected to live very long after my mother was born due to a serious chronic illness. She grew up fearing her mother could die at any moment. I’m NOT excusing anything, but it breaks my heart. So much brokenness. 

I understand.  Both of my parents had traumatizing childhoods.  My father came out of it sweet and not wanting to be like his abusive father.  My mother ended up being a scary and dangerous narcissist.  I understood it, felt bad for her, and never wanted anything bad for her, but I couldn't have her in my life because she was toxic.  But I never did anything to try to hurt her - it was kind of "live and let live."  She went after me repeatedly until she died and it was very upsetting to always have that threat, but I never retaliated in any way - only wished she would leave me and my family alone.  

I wish you and your family the best.  ❤️  

[Carrie12345]

Agreeing with everyone. Just want to add that dh also struggled because of the other parent angle. That does make it harder. In our case, after a lot of emotional working through, he was able to frame it as it was; supporting toxic behavior, even passively, was supporting toxic behavior, and that wasn’t okay.  
In our family, things did eventually get so bad that there was a separation between the parents and dh was able to reconnect with the other parent (as did our kids.) I can’t pretend that’s common, but wanted to throw it out there that good boundaries at least have the potential to inspire others.

[kristin0713]

Tell your girls to block her number. Tell your mom, “I told my kids to block your number because I will not tolerate you treating them this way. If you are going to make this more of a problem, I will block you as well.” 
 

You need to set firm boundaries with your mom and follow through when she doesn’t respect them. Her behavior is not normal or acceptable. 

[BlsdMama]

7 hours ago, popmom said:

I’m not sure what to ask. I guess I should just give a specific example. 
My mother didn’t (and still to this day doesn’t) think I disciplined this adult child enough over this incident. Clearly she had made some huge issue of a non issue IMO. 
 

 

The fact that your mother thinks it is appropriate to disciple/correct/punish an adult shows she has NO boundaries.  She is WAY over the top but I doubt she'll hear you on this.  Truly, this is inappropriate.  No idea what you can do about it except set firm boundaries and don't tolerate it.  "Okay, mom, we're done here. You're crossing a boundary, this is inappropriate and I refuse to engage." ( Good response for text or phone or in person.)

[QueenCat]

I would tell your DD that it is perfectly acceptable to block Grandma's number on her phone. Neither you or your DD deserve this unwarranted behavior of your mom's. 

[TheReader]

It's 100% never ever okay. Ever. 

*maybe* a small child, if grandma is babysitting, then she needs to be in charge at that time. But not other times, not if mom/dad are present, not if she's not actually babysitting, and not ever at all, ever, once the child passes babysitting age. 

Ever. 

Nor should she still be parenting you in that manner, either. 

Signed, someone who fights the same thing, and has drawn many a hard line over it 

[Carrie12345]

For whatever it’s worth, I wouldn’t call the example given “parenting”. That word makes me think of things I’d do to my kids, as a parent. And it is not.

[bolt.]

I'd accept the idea that a grandmother can talk to her granddaughter person-to-person about some kind of interpersonal offense that needed expression or problem solving between them. Between them, if the relationship was a good relationship, they could also chat lovingly about the granddaughter's goals and dreams, be supportive, offer (solicited) advice, etc. Those sorts of activities are "parent-ish" but they aren't inherently inappropriate. The relationship is two-way, respectful, boundaried, egalitarian, consensual, and optional.

On the other hand, like your situation, if the grandmother can't treat the granddaughter with normal human decency or a sense of equality in the relationship... then, that's not the same thing at all. It's nothing. It's just an older woman bullying a younger family member for the sake of some kind of power trip. Not okay.

Edited August 2, 2021 by bolt.

[SKL]

Well, I think it is appropriate for a grandparent to put a lot of thought into how to word a statement designed to encourage an adult grandchild to introspect and consider how to make better future decisions.

The grandparent needs to handle this like an adult talking to an adult.  No grabbing, seething, etc.  If she can't speak calmly, get it out, and move on, then she needs to do some introspection of her own.

[Scarlett]

12 hours ago, Danae said:

She’s crazypants.  Adults don’t “discipline” and “punish” each other.  Not grandparents and not parents.  The idea that you should have been punishing your adult daughter at all for something she was unable to do, let alone whatever amount you mother thinks is “enough” is bonkers.

 

QFT.  I think this says it best.

Sorry you are dealing with this @popmom

[fraidycat]

When is it appropriate for a grandparent to intervene?

In the example you gave, the answer is never.

It is fine to express an opinion such as "I was really disappointed you couldn't come to great-grandma's party." Expressed in a neutral tone of voice, not yelled or screamed.
 

But that is the end. Seething, raging, grabbing, dragging, digging nails in is never ever ok. I would give my kids my full support in cutting contact with such a toxic, abusive person.

[SKL]

I could see someone like my dad, after thinking it over a long time, calmly saying something like "I just want you to know, your great-grandparents love you a lot.  Nobody said anything about it, but I want you to consider this.  Your choice to be present or not matters to your great-grandparents.  They have very little to look forward to.  Just something to consider for the future.  I love you."

[QueenCat]

I wouldn't be silent about your mother's abusive behavior towards your daughter. And  yes, it is absolutely abusive.

[mathnerd]

Her grandkids are adults and hence her equals in any conversation. So are you. She glared at you and made sure to kill your enjoyment of the party - she was being hostile and punishing you for a perceived wrong.

She dug her nails into your DD and dragged her inside her house - if your daughter's romantic partner or her spouse did that, it would be considered an act of domestic abuse. The same goes for a grandmother as well. Don't dismiss abuse when it comes packaged as grandmotherly interaction or disciplining.

Nobody has the right to parent another adult. She has no business parenting an adult. She is entitled to have polite and appropriate interactions with her grandkids and mention her disappointment at not seeing them at events. But that is as far as she is allowed to go.

I will cut out any relationship with anyone who dared to lay a finger on my child or use viciousness and abuse when interacting with them. 

I suggest that you cool the relationship by gray rocking, not initiating contact and not sharing your personal information with her. Also, please let your daughters know not to allow grandma to treat them that way. I am sorry that she got attacked. 

(I have BTDT.)

[AmandaVT]

23 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

I suggest that you cool the relationship by gray rocking, not initiating contact and not sharing your personal information with her. Also, please let your daughters know not to allow grandma to treat them that way. I am sorry that she got attacked. 

(I have BTDT.)

I just googled "grey rocking" and I didn't know that my strategy for dealing with difficult people had a name! Thank you!

@popmom - I'm sorry you are dealing with this. I agree with everything prior posters have said. Parenting a grandchild is reminding small children not to touch the hot stove or cheering them on at a soccer game, not abusing a daughter and granddaughter because you aren't thrilled with a decision the granddaughter made. 

[Arcadia]

My late paternal grandma that is self centered and slightly mercenary doesn’t do that. She did play favorites but she did not do what you described. What I did learn from my grandma was that she would only “attack” the weak, so putting up a strong front was a good deterrent.

[popmom]

I learned very early that I couldn't leave my kids alone with her. 

I've tried to get counseling. I was blown off last time. I never went back. I will have to find someone else. I have some names. I want to do a phone interview before I waste anymore time seeing someone who won't help me.

[Indigo Blue]

15 hours ago, popmom said:

So the cognitive dissonance is strong. Things had been going really well. I stupidly thought something had changed.

Same. But they don’t change. I finally realized it two or so years ago. So feel free to do whatever you need to keep boundaries and know you are in the right. I can’t tell you how many times I would think “things are going so well now. Things are finally going to be ok”. I relate to how they can just be perfectly fine and normal,  then …boom. It’s like 80/20. 80 percent of the time things seem ok. But, watch out, that 20 percent will do you in. 

It literally made me flush with anger to read how she grabbed your daughter’s arm. You would be completely in the right to tell your mom that had better not ever happen again. Ever. 

[Indigo Blue]

Adding…I don’t know how your mom does things, but , sometimes  people like this follow up with kind words, a gift, a card. But never an actual apology. Maybe an excuse, but no apology. It’s fake. I’ve learned to not fall for it. But  maybe your mom doesn’t do this. I’ve experienced it. It comes after they have caused a deep hurt. 

[gardenmom5]

Ok - my impression.  wow.  This had ZERO to do with parenting anyone.  This was about feeding your mother's ego.  She wanted the ego feed of saying ALL of her grandchildren were there.  (to top the other siblings.)

digging her nails in - to deliberately inflict pain - is physically abusive.

She's destroying her relationship with her grandchildren, and I can't imagine why anyone would want to have a relationship with her.   

I came to distrust my grandmother by the time I was 13, and it only got worse as time went on. I eventually erected hard boundaries so I controlled the relationship. She was likely a covert narcissist. - initially, my hard boundaries were one 15 minute phone call once a week as long as she was polite.  if she wasn't, I said goodbye and hung-up.  we weren't allowed to hang up on her.  most phone calls were less than half that, and one was three minutes.  As time went on, and she realized she'd lost control/influence over me - she lost interest in me and it became easier.

 

I strongly suggest you listen to Doctor Ramani's youtube videos, and see just how much starts ringing bells.  

 

eta: I'd also encourage you to read Boundaries: when to say yes, how to say no; by Townsend and Cloud.

and always remember:  the opinion's of toxic people are not worth anything. 

 don't try and teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Edited August 2, 2021 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

18 hours ago, popmom said:

Well you see how effective the gaslighting is—that I’m here needing someone to tell me this. 
 

You are joining those of us who have survived a gaslighting parent/grandparent who have experienced that glorious epiphany (angelic choir singing):  IT's.  NOT.  YOU!  you are sane.  *she* is cray-cray.

I still remember the day I finally realized I was sane, she was crazy, and it wasn't me.  It still brings me to tears of relief.

I was reading a list of narcissistic traits on "the harpy's child's blog" (I *LOVED* that name!).  and going check, check, check, check... down the list . . . . 

Edited August 2, 2021 by gardenmom5

[Rosie_0801]

2 hours ago, popmom said:

I've tried to get counseling. I was blown off last time. I never went back. I will have to find someone else. I have some names. I want to do a phone interview before I waste anymore time seeing someone who won't help me.

What do you think you will learn from a counsellor?

[HeartString]

2 hours ago, popmom said:

I learned very early that I couldn't leave my kids alone with her. 

I've tried to get counseling. I was blown off last time. I never went back. I will have to find someone else. I have some names. I want to do a phone interview before I waste anymore time seeing someone who won't help me.

Betterhelp online counseling has been beneficial for my family.  It’s cheaper, easier to schedule and you can change counselors any time.  Being easier to schedule made it easier to actually keep doing it.  

Edited August 2, 2021 by HeartString

[gardenmom5]

 

17 hours ago, popmom said:

@RootAnn there can be no boundaries. I really think it would be pointless to try. I mean if I did say “we can have a relationship if xyz”…she would go atomic bomb on me. I’m not sure I want to go through that. 
 

Way, way back when that book came out by Cloud and Townsend, Boundaries…My mother RAILED against that book like it was the downfall of civilization. She still brings it up to this day. 
 

I will say…I think it’s possible she would accept certain boundaries from the “golden” grandchildren. That is one of the things I’m discussing with my kids rn…for them still having some contact.

No contact is a boundary.   
Boundaries are a spectrum.  from "anything goes" - to no contact.
narcissists/controlling people: loath and despise boundaries because it limits their control.  *everything* is about their control.

when you implement boundaries - you *do* *not* announce the boundary - you just implement it.  e.g. My brother: he's not allowed in my house, (ever, for any reason), I will only meet him places where I can walk out at a moments notice.  I'm willing to give him one chance at (me) changing the subject off of verboten subjects (I dont' bother telling him what those subjects are, as he'll just argue about them.), and if he goes back to the verboten subject, I end the conversation.  But I only talk to him a handful of times a year.  maybe.  he constantly sends me links to insane conspiracy theories (my favorite is the CERN scientists being chased by men in black helicopters because they opened a doorway to another dimension. yeah - he thought it was real).  I don't open any of them.  He has no access to my social media. (and never will.)

My brother was her golden child.  He's extremely toxic, and certainly falls on the narcissism spectrum.  (his first ex-wife did therapy as a victim  of domestic violence, even though he never hit her.)  Both of his daughters are no-contact with him (one has saved emails/texts/vm/etc for a restraining order against him), and his son thinks he's nuts.  Golden children are damaged by these people, please don't think they aren't.

 

16 hours ago, Seasider too said:

You set your boundaries. You hold to your boundaries. You never have to announce your boundaries to anyone. 
 

fwiw I’m married to a golden grandchild. Don’t underestimate the future possible consequences of being golden. They may not be treated badly but are often manipulated just as much, and it can have a long term effect on sibling relationships. 

THIS!

I also think one of my brother's biggest issues is he was the golden child, so he was revered and constantly had his ego stroked - but then he went out into the world and the world doesn't stroke your ego.  He comes across (to me) as super insecure, with a lot of false bravado to hide it.

10 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

The fact that your mother thinks it is appropriate to disciple/correct/punish an adult shows she has NO boundaries.  She is WAY over the top but I doubt she'll hear you on this.  Truly, this is inappropriate.  No idea what you can do about it except set firm boundaries and don't tolerate it.  "Okay, mom, we're done here. You're crossing a boundary, this is inappropriate and I refuse to engage." ( Good response for text or phone or in person.)

yeah - people like this, despise boundaries.  You are their extension, and they live for control.  and they can't control you if *you* have boundaries.

2 hours ago, popmom said:

I learned very early that I couldn't leave my kids alone with her. 

I've tried to get counseling. I was blown off last time. I never went back. I will have to find someone else. I have some names. I want to do a phone interview before I waste anymore time seeing someone who won't help me.

You were blown off by the counselor?  my suggestion is include in your list of questions their experience with people parented by a narcissistic/personality-disordered person.

Both Dr Ramani, and Dr. Les Carter (both have you tube channels focused on narcissism) have said they learned very little about narcissism in their doctoral programs, but deal with it exclusively in their professional lives.  so - a lot of counselors (of any type) have inadequate experience with this type of manipulation.  

both dr. ramani and dr. carter have a referral service for finding someone in your are who knows what's what.

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, popmom said:

I learned very early that I couldn't leave my kids alone with her. 

I've tried to get counseling. I was blown off last time. I never went back. I will have to find someone else. I have some names. I want to do a phone interview before I waste anymore time seeing someone who won't help me.

I learned more about how to handle my tricky and nutty relatives from the Captain Awkward website than I ever did from counseling.  CaptainAwkward.com

Counselors range from great to terrible. I've ended up with quite a few that are mediocre and want to spend a lot of time on "learning acceptance".  I don't even know what they mean by "acceptance" in this situation.  I accept that my mom is some sort of crazy and dysfunctional. What I need is a) some tools I can use to extricate myself from crazy and dysfunctional situations and b) some framework for what my ethical obligations are to neglectful parents with untreated mental health problems, (and they will never, ever seek treatment, so this is as good as it gets).  

[popmom]

30 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

What do you think you will learn from a counsellor?

I want to know how to stop the horrible anxiety and dread when she triggers me. I'm actually pretty well read on the subject of narc, so intellectually I know exactly what she is doing, but I can't control how my body and mind reacts--still. I also need guidance on boundaries, parenting my own adult children, etc. since I clearly have not had that modeled for me. I need a mentor type person.

That feeling of dread is so bad that it makes me want to try to make everything ok for her, placate her, just so I can stop the horrible dread and anxiety I feel. I'm learning. This time I was able to fight that urge to go "make her happy". I had to make the decision about my dad--not worrying about how this affects him. That's really what has been holding me back in the process of healing. Once I did that, I was able to allow myself to take a break, ride out the dread/anxiety, and actually consider going NC.

One thing is certain. She will never ruin my holidays again. Last year was so nice because we didn't have a big get together due to covid. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by popmom