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12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Sadly a lot of people believe that God will protect them, since they are true believers, and it's not their problem if other people get sick or die — they should have had more faith.

There was a story in the news a few days ago about a 34 year old member of Hillsong church who was anti-vax, anti-Biden, etc. etc., even after being hospitalized with covid. He tweeted “If you don’t have faith that God can heal me over your stupid ventilator then keep the Hell out of my ICU room, there’s no room in here for fear or lack of faith!” He died three days later. 

Pride literally kills people. No exaggeration to call it a deadly sin at all. 

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15 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Yes. Well. They can claim all kinds of things and even believe they are telling the truth and still not be true. Or maybe they are telling the truth and they are Christians. Bad Christians are still Christians. Some practicing Christians need to practice a lot more.

ETA:  I chant all the time. God, Family and country. In that order for a reason.  If I ask someone what beatitude or work of mercy or commandment their actions fulfill and their response is to sputter about capitalism and freedom - that’s fine. But don’t yap at me about my moral duty is a Catholic American until they get their priorities in order. 

Unfortunately, lots of conservative Christian politicians frequently chant the same God, Family, Country slogan you do. But their other words and actions show something very different.

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As for the Christians lacking Christian charity and duty….

Jesus broke bread with Judas, one of His most trusted followers. 

So count me not surprised by people not living the faith.

I’m only half-joking when I say most practicing Christians need to practice a hellauva lot more. Myself included. 

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2 minutes ago, Frances said:

Unfortunately, lots of conservative Christian politicians frequently chant the same God, Family, Country slogan you do. But their other words and actions show something very different.

Yes. Of course. Politicians and charlatans being one and the same are nothing new. 

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Sometimes I think it's hard for the m/c women on this board to 'get' how poverty or insecurity changes a person's thinking to focus way more on the short term than the medium or long term. For good reasons. 

Especially if your social millieu is discouraging, it's a cognitively demanding task to get vaccinated, comprising of critical thinking, research, organisation, regulating emotions, reframing...and that's before the appointment! 

I think a lot of this is less about our (the vaccinated) smartness and altruism, and their (unvaccinated) idiocy and selfishness, and more about the cultural norms we participate in. 

I know it's normative for me to be pro-vaccine. To get vaccinated, I could just lean into my cultural norms. Which are strongly in favour even of (some) mandates. It's normative for me to experience high levels of trust in science, medicine, public officials, public health. I had vaccine leave and sick leave to cushion my choice. 

For someone who lives with different cultural norms, levels of trust, and access to workplace support, the choice to vaccinate has a higher cognitive, emotional and social cost. 

I don't know how you fix that ( and I suspect the issues begin long before Covid) but calling people selfish idiots - even though objectively, they don't have high levels of accurate information, and aren't thinking of the common good - probably won't shift things.

 

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

I half-joke all the time that Darwin’s theory has been disproven wtr people bc by now we shouldn’t be this dumb still. 

No. That’s on par with exactly what I’m saying. They don’t want no govt telling them what to do or taking any taxes!  Even though there’s nothing but historical proof that many things in the Biden plan are very likely to benefit our nation as a whole and many individuals - they’ll say no. Because that’s “lazy” and because “freedom” and because “capitalism”.

If that’s the mentality they have always known and the mentality fostered by our govt policies for a very long time - I’m sure it’s reasonable to suddenly to be surprised that just telling them they should care about their neighbor isn’t effective.  

Yes, and if "the government" (that's a very broad term) worked better for people they might have more faith in it. Over the last 50 years, government has been underfunded. And it's not just in red states. Look at the pension crisis in Illinois and Oregon. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Sometimes I think it's hard for the m/c women on this board to 'get' how poverty or insecurity changes a person's thinking to focus way more on the short term than the medium or long term. For good reasons. 

Especially if your social millieu is discouraging, it's a cognitively demanding task to get vaccinated, comprising of critical thinking, research, organisation, regulating emotions, reframing...and that's before the appointment! 

I think a lot of this is less about our (the vaccinated) smartness and altruism, and their (unvaccinated) idiocy and selfishness, and more about the cultural norms we participate in. 

I know it's normative for me to be pro-vaccine. To get vaccinated, I could just lean into my cultural norms. Which are strongly in favour even of (some) mandates. It's normative for me to experience high levels of trust in science, medicine, public officials, public health. I had vaccine leave and sick leave to cushion my choice. 

For someone who lives with different cultural norms, levels of trust, and access to workplace support, the choice to vaccinate has a higher cognitive, emotional and social cost. 

I don't know how you fix that ( and I suspect the issues begin long before Covid) but calling people selfish idiots - even though objectively, they don't have high levels of accurate information, and aren't thinking of the common good - probably won't shift things.

 

I agree cultural norms definitely play a role, but in the US, at least as strong as the cultural norms that might be present in poverty situations are the political and religious cultural norms in many areas. So I think there are different reasons different groups of people are not vaccinating and/or anti-vax and anti-mask.
 

Even in someone here hasn’t experienced true poverty, I think most are quite familiar with at least some of the growing body of cognitive science showing its effects. I do think local public health officials and healthcare providers have the best chance of reaching the group you describe. I’m not sure those influenced by political or religious cultural norms to be against most or all covid precautions are reachable, but the best chance likely lies with their own faith or political leaders.

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7 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, and if "the government" (that's a very broad term) worked better for people they might have more faith in it. Over the last 50 years, government has been underfunded. And it's not just in red states. Look at the pension crisis in Illinois and Oregon. 

 

The pension crisis in Oregon is not nearly as bad as many other states. And it was created by leaders of both parties who benefitted from it. Having people retire making more money than when working is not sustainable and that’s why reforms were enacted. Unfortunately, not a whole lot can be done until all of those still covered under the old structure die, and some are still working. Much has been tried, but it rarely passes court challenges.

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27 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I don't know how you fix that ( and I suspect the issues begin long before Covid) but calling people selfish idiots - even though objectively, they don't have high levels of accurate information, and aren't thinking of the common good - probably won't shift things.

I don't think much of anything fixes things. I agree with your post: most people don't vaccinate for enlightened, sophisticated reasons -- they vaccinate because most people they know vaccinate. People are like that with science in general: many more people are apt to treat it as a new form of religion than the number who (correctly, in my opinion) see it as a method of attaining independent truth. 

This is why I don't particularly judge people for not vaccinating. Honestly, I don't judge people for much of anything, except the stuff that seems explicitly chosen to be hostile. 

Well, what I mean is that I don't judge them as bad people, I guess. I suppose I judge them to be ignorant. 

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think much of anything fixes things. I agree with your post: most people don't vaccinate for enlightened, sophisticated reasons -- they vaccinate because most people they know vaccinate. People are like that with science in general: many more people are apt to treat it as a new form of religion than the number who (correctly, in my opinion) see it as a method of attaining independent truth. 

This is why I don't particularly judge people for not vaccinating. Honestly, I don't judge people for much of anything, except the stuff that seems explicitly chosen to be hostile. 

Well, what I mean is that I don't judge them as bad people, I guess. I suppose I judge them to be ignorant. 

I agree. Vaccination rates seem to mirror the group that a person belongs to. It's not surprising since most of us do what the people around us do. 

The people I judge are those who know better but spread misinformation. 

It's a lot to expect people to discern the truth when there is so much misinformation out there. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It's a lot to expect people to discern the truth when there is so much misinformation out there. 

Although I'll say that, if I had my druthers, people would be able to tell the truth 😉 . And I do tend to choose friends (and romantic partners) who are good at this. 

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1 minute ago, Seasider too said:

I’d like to read this, but…paywall. I think I’ve reached my limit on free NYT articles. 

Can you open it in incognito mode? I'm a subscriber, so I don't know for sure.

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3 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

I’d like to read this, but…paywall. I think I’ve reached my limit on free NYT articles. 

Sorry, can you try incognito? Normally, I can never read any Washington Posts articles, even incognito, because I don’t subscribe. But for some strange reason I’ve been able to read several this week.

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12 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I agree. Vaccination rates seem to mirror the group that a person belongs to. It's not surprising since most of us do what the people around us do. 

The people I judge are those who know better but spread misinformation. 

It's a lot to expect people to discern the truth when there is so much misinformation out there. 

 

I agree, I judge those doing the wrong thing merely for power or financial gain the most. I admit I add conservative Christians to the group because of all the judging and morality preaching that many do while trying to enact laws that deny rights to others that they themselves enjoy. The hypocrisy and inconsistency really make me angry. I mean we are all guilty of being inconsistent and hypocritical at times, but this is just a whole new level, especially when it comes to “pro-life”, and abortion rights aren’t even on my list of top 100 political issues.

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Although I'll say that, if I had my druthers, people would be able to tell the truth 😉 . And I do tend to choose friends (and romantic partners) who are good at this. 

It requires some scientific literacy to discern who's been right during this pandemic. My science education was terrible and I've forgotten everything. I don't think I "discerned" who was correct. I trusted the right people but that's because the people trusted by people like me turned out to be correct. 

Logic helps to discern the truth but is logic enough? Will a logical people reach the wrong conclusions if only exposed to "alternative facts?" 

My observation is that people went along with the kind of people they were. I have some relatives who are very conservative Christians. They were vaccinated as soon as possible. But the wife is a doctor and the husband is an engineer. Would it have even been possible for them to consider not vaccinating given their backgrounds? 

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2 hours ago, kbutton said:

Agreed.

In our area, it's politics and conspiracy theories. I've been stunned at people I thought I knew. I've flat out told my kids that if they're ever in a group situation again where certain people are giving a lesson, etc., they are to get up and walk out and find me because I don't want anything those people say to be something my kids hear. (We aren't returning to our former church, but sometimes there are overlapping circles of acquaintances or homeschool events, etc.)

Our local homeschool co-op is now almost exclusively led by conspiracy theory believers. My dd is older, and we aren’t participating anyway, but I would not trust them to teach much of anything. I was going to say anything academic, but given their behavior I wouldn’t trust them to teach anything to do with morals or ethics either. 

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4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It requires some scientific literacy to discern who's been right during this pandemic. My science education was terrible and I've forgotten everything. I don't think I "discerned" who was correct. I trusted the right people but that's because the people trusted by people like me turned out to be correct. 

Logic helps to discern the truth but is logic enough? Will a logical people reach the wrong conclusions if only exposed to "alternative facts?" 

My observation is that people went along with the kind of people they were. I have some relatives who are very conservative Christians. They were vaccinated as soon as possible. But the wife is a doctor and the husband is an engineer. Would it have even been possible for them to consider not vaccinating given their backgrounds? 

I do tend to pick science-minded friends, lol. 

As for "alternative facts," they tend to be fairly transparently lies if you have any critical thinking at all. The problem is that people don't view them through that lens. 

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16 minutes ago, TCB said:

Our local homeschool co-op is now almost exclusively led by conspiracy theory believers. My dd is older, and we aren’t participating anyway, but I would not trust them to teach much of anything. I was going to say anything academic, but given their behavior I wouldn’t trust them to teach anything to do with morals or ethics either. 

I’m ahead of my time. I’ve felt that way for 10 years.

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17 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I do tend to pick science-minded friends, lol. 

As for "alternative facts," they tend to be fairly transparently lies if you have any critical thinking at all. The problem is that people don't view them through that lens. 

Yeah, the whole start of the thread was the lie that "Delta is Vaccine Injury". Easy to debunk if you think about all the groups who are getting the disease. 

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Sadly a lot of people believe that God will protect them, since they are true believers, and it's not their problem if other people get sick or die — they should have had more faith.

There was a story in the news a few days ago about a 34 year old member of Hillsong church who was anti-vax, anti-Biden, etc. etc., even after being hospitalized with covid. He tweeted “If you don’t have faith that God can heal me over your stupid ventilator then keep the Hell out of my ICU room, there’s no room in here for fear or lack of faith!” He died three days later. 

These were the same sort of folks who condemned me for not trusting God to save me and my baby, and letting the doctors end the pregnancy to save my life. There was literally no way to win short of a miracle. My complications and illness were seen as a sign that I wasn't right with God. Presumably had I died, they would have talked about how "God had taken her home".  I have not really been on good terms with organized Christian religion since because I can't relax. There is always an anti-abortion, faith not fear broadsides waiting to attack. 

 

I see a lot of that thinking in the COVID denial, anti-mask, anti-vax folks. I don't know of any way to combat that thinking. 

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18 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

These were the same sort of folks who condemned me for not trusting God to save me and my baby, and letting the doctors end the pregnancy to save my life. There was literally no way to win short of a miracle. My complications and illness were seen as a sign that I wasn't right with God. Presumably had I died, they would have talked about how "God had taken her home".  I have not really been on good terms with organized Christian religion since because I can't relax. There is always an anti-abortion, faith not fear broadsides waiting to attack. 

 

I see a lot of that thinking in the COVID denial, anti-mask, anti-vax folks. I don't know of any way to combat that thinking. 

I don’t know your pregnancy story. I don’t know if I would agree or not with the hard awful decision you had to make. But I know it wasn’t because God didn’t love you or your baby. And I know He loves you now too.  (((Hugs)))

Aside from that personal note…

I don’t know why people think if God loves them bad stuff won’t happen to them. I mean. Have they even read any chapter of the Bible ever? Or opened a history book? More people need to be listening to Fr Mike’s Bible in a Year podcast.  He talks about this stuff.

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5 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t know why people think if God loves them bad stuff won’t happen to them. I mean. Have they even read any chapter of the Bible ever?

QFT

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

Sorry, can you try incognito? Normally, I can never read any Washington Posts articles, even incognito, because I don’t subscribe. But for some strange reason I’ve been able to read several this week.

Washington Post articles related to Covid have no paywall. Could that be it?

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It requires some scientific literacy to discern who's been right during this pandemic. My science education was terrible and I've forgotten everything. I don't think I "discerned" who was correct. I trusted the right people but that's because the people trusted by people like me turned out to be correct. 

Logic helps to discern the truth but is logic enough? Will a logical people reach the wrong conclusions if only exposed to "alternative facts?" 

My observation is that people went along with the kind of people they were. I have some relatives who are very conservative Christians. They were vaccinated as soon as possible. But the wife is a doctor and the husband is an engineer. Would it have even been possible for them to consider not vaccinating given their backgrounds? 

That's interesting you view it that way. Maybe it's different for me because I don't have a "people like me" group. Definitely a lot of people are going along with their group, but I know other people who aren't as well (in both directions). I'm pretty used to being an outlier and not having an in group though 🤷‍♀️

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3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, and if "the government" (that's a very broad term) worked better for people they might have more faith in it. Over the last 50 years, government has been underfunded. And it's not just in red states. Look at the pension crisis in Illinois and Oregon. 

 

Illinois’ pension fund was not properly managed for years which led to the crisis. Thanks to politicians. I know a pension benefits actuary, a fellow and chief actuary, who had to help analyze what happened. It’s a mess. But it wasn't caused by a lack of funding.

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25 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Illinois’ pension fund was not properly managed for years which led to the crisis. Thanks to politicians. I know a pension benefits actuary, a fellow and chief actuary, who had to help analyze what happened. It’s a mess. But it wasn't caused by a lack of funding.

I didn't mean to make the connection to underfunding. I meant it as an example of a blue state not being properly managed. 

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I didn't mean to make the connection to underfunding. I meant it as an example of a blue state not being properly managed. 

Illinois is a great example for not being properly managed unfortuantely.

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

Washington Post articles related to Covid have no paywall. Could that be it?

That's interesting you view it that way. Maybe it's different for me because I don't have a "people like me" group. Definitely a lot of people are going along with their group, but I know other people who aren't as well (in both directions). I'm pretty used to being an outlier and not having an in group though 🤷‍♀️

I wouldn't say that I have a group. We're actually in a transition period from one community to another. We left our church and lost almost all of our community. We're beginning to establish relationships with a new community that is actually much more like us than our old community. 

I meant "us" in a broader sense. Educated, white, upper middle class, suburban living Biden voters. Everyone in my family is vaccinated except the children who are under 12. That includes people who live in red states and blue states and even people who voted for Trump. But they are all vaccinated. 

I remember years ago after buying a Honda Civic, I read something about how Honda characterized people who buy Civics. It was me. Did I buy a Civic because I did my research and decided it was the best car or did I buy it because it was designed for a person like me? I think many times when we believe we're making choices, we're actually choosing something that is marketed to people like us. We're not so much buying the product but participating in a group of people that buy X. 

The point being that most of us aren't that original or rebellious. 

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In another crazy variation on the theme of the type of propaganda in the OP, I saw a friend of a friend (whom I have met in person and would barely call an acquaintance) comment on FB in all seriousness that COVID was engineered as a conspiracy to sell vaccines and make profits for vaccine manufacturers.  😳   Maybe that one has been going around a while too, but it was the first time I had seen anyone say it.  This lady is definitely anti-vax in general, but even my other anti-vax friends don't seem to be claiming that.

Edited by kirstenhill
choice of wording
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1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

These were the same sort of folks who condemned me for not trusting God to save me and my baby, and letting the doctors end the pregnancy to save my life. There was literally no way to win short of a miracle. My complications and illness were seen as a sign that I wasn't right with God. Presumably had I died, they would have talked about how "God had taken her home".  I have not really been on good terms with organized Christian religion since because I can't relax. There is always an anti-abortion, faith not fear broadsides waiting to attack. 

 

I see a lot of that thinking in the COVID denial, anti-mask, anti-vax folks. I don't know of any way to combat that thinking. 

"Faith not fear!" is an immature faith. I've felt for a long time that the Christianity of my world (former world) was actually just pietistic feel-goodism that was only about an inch deep. Much of it felt like a performance. Harking back to the post I just wrote about how we buy things because we're part of a group that buys those things. My religion felt very niche and like LARPing, in a way. Get the trappings for your new religion and do the things that people in your new religion do. 

I think there is always an 'external' part of any kind of a belief. It's like how something becomes a habit. You have to do enough times to make it a habit. It's not a habit on day 1. Religion is the same way. 

But in American Christianity, it so often doesn't go beyond that. The leaders are spiritually immature so no one can advance beyond spiritual childhood. 

We've begun attending a progressive church. The minister remarked, "I don't know," about something. I was struck by it and realized that I hadn't heard, "I don't know" at church ever. They were always so sure. I think it terrified them to admit that maybe they weren't so sure so they had to be even more confident that they were right. "I don't know" is more mature than convincing yourself that you're completely certain. 

 

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5 hours ago, TCB said:

Our local homeschool co-op is now almost exclusively led by conspiracy theory believers. My dd is older, and we aren’t participating anyway, but I would not trust them to teach much of anything. I was going to say anything academic, but given their behavior I wouldn’t trust them to teach anything to do with morals or ethics either. 

That is something that I have been seriously thinking about as well. Who do I want to speak into the lives of my children...it forced me to rethink a lot of relationships and start to create distance for my family because that is not what I want modeled for my son during his teen years. I can't unsee what I have observed this past year and half. It has been truth revealing. 

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16 hours ago, KSera said:

I’ll see what I can find. I’m basing it off the June numbers which were widely reported everywhere as 99.2% of the almost 10,000 Covid deaths in June were unvaccinated.

Eta: here’s a link: https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/561585-fauci-more-than-99-of-people-who-died-from-covid-19-in-june-were-not

Or Fox, if you prefer: https://www.foxnews.com/health/fauci-vaccinated-people-extra-mile-wear-masks-in-areas-with-low-vaccination-rate

 

I don’t have access to the actual data. The CDC website isn’t that current for very recent death data. 

I have seen the 99.2% widely reported, but I cannot find an actual source for that.  The best I can find is

"The AP analyzed figures provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The CDC itself has not estimated what percentage of hospitalizations and deaths are in fully vaccinated people, citing limitations in the data.

Among them: Only about 45 states report breakthrough infections, and some are more aggressive than others in looking for such cases. So the data probably understates such infections, CDC officials" said."https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187

But, then it looks as if CDC officials picked up this number.  So, even though it was a much publicized number, it appears to be an inaccurate number.  

Then if you consider this graphic where the dark is percent of those who died who were vaccinated, it looks to be closer to 15% in May:

image.thumb.png.150dff5bd9e120ab87d0fbfbaf1db83b.png

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/30/key-numbers-cdcs-new-assessment-delta-variant/

 

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19 hours ago, KSera said:

Would it be better for people not to be vaccinated and the deaths to double? I don’t understand the goal. 

At some point I think I think we have to acknowledge that this is the goal for some.  There are people for whom the goal really is to stop the vaccine and let deaths do what they do. 

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16 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Jeff Bezos paid less in taxes than everyone on this board. And we wonder why Americans don't make good decisions about COVID precautions and the vaccine? 

 

Do you know how much Jeff Bezos paid in taxes?  I thought the tax returns of citizens were private and confidential.  

Even if I knew how much Jeff Bezos, or any person on this board paid in taxes, I don't see how that is connected to people making good decisions about COVID precautions and the vaccine.   How are those connected?  

 

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9 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I wouldn't say that I have a group. We're actually in a transition period from one community to another. We left our church and lost almost all of our community. We're beginning to establish relationships with a new community that is actually much more like us than our old community. 

I meant "us" in a broader sense. Educated, white, upper middle class, suburban living Biden voters. Everyone in my family is vaccinated except the children who are under 12. That includes people who live in red states and blue states and even people who voted for Trump. But they are all vaccinated. 

I remember years ago after buying a Honda Civic, I read something about how Honda characterized people who buy Civics. It was me. Did I buy a Civic because I did my research and decided it was the best car or did I buy it because it was designed for a person like me? I think many times when we believe we're making choices, we're actually choosing something that is marketed to people like us. We're not so much buying the product but participating in a group of people that buy X. 

The point being that most of us aren't that original or rebellious. 

That's an interesting idea.   I know fashion is pretty dictated by what others wear and fitting in, but I never thought about it in cars.  

I bought my first Honda Civic because they were the cheapest car that was considered really reliable at the time (manual transmission, no radio, no air conditioning, and roll down windows).  And my ex had a cousin who was the manager at a local dealership.  😁 I continued buying Honda's because I still consider them reliable but I do fall into the educated, white, upper middle class, suburban demographic. 

I do agree with the overall idea of most of us doing what the rest of our "group" does.   But I have been surprised that many of the "crunchy" usually anti or delayed vaxxers I know have been right on getting the Covid vaccine.  A friend who is a doula, training to be a mid-wife has mentioned the same thing - all of them in her group are vaccinated. 

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9 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

We've begun attending a progressive church. The minister remarked, "I don't know," about something. I was struck by it and realized that I hadn't heard, "I don't know" at church ever. They were always so sure. I think it terrified them to admit that maybe they weren't so sure so they had to be even more confident that they were right. "I don't know" is more mature than convincing yourself that you're completely certain. 

 

Yes, my pastor says he doesn't know about many, many things. He probably says that at least once in every sermon. He also talks about how if you understand everything about God, then your God is way too small.  That said, there are a few things non-negotiable. 

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2 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

That's an interesting idea.   I know fashion is pretty dictated by what others wear and fitting in, but I never thought about it in cars.  

I bought my first Honda Civic because they were the cheapest car that was considered really reliable at the time (manual transmission, no radio, no air conditioning, and roll down windows).  And my ex had a cousin who was the manager at a local dealership.  😁 I continued buying Honda's because I still consider them reliable but I do fall into the educated, white, upper middle class, suburban demographic. 

I do agree with the overall idea of most of us doing what the rest of our "group" does.   But I have been surprised that many of the "crunchy" usually anti or delayed vaxxers I know have been right on getting the Covid vaccine.  A friend who is a doula, training to be a mid-wife has mentioned the same thing - all of them in her group are vaccinated. 

LOL. My first car I ever bought in the early 90's was a Civic. I only got rid of it because we couldn't fit our kids and all their stuff in it.  We had my husband's Accord for over 20 years. We bought another Civic that all of my children learned to drive on. Our youngest is still driving it. It is 12 years old and 150,000 miles. They really have been reliable for us!  Guess we are the perfect demographic.

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10 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I don’t know why people think if God loves them bad stuff won’t happen to them. I mean. Have they even read any chapter of the Bible ever?

This always confuses me - and yeah, I can only assume they have a different Bible than I do. Cause in mine, God loves Jesus a whole lot and he got crucified.....

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22 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

That's an interesting idea.   I know fashion is pretty dictated by what others wear and fitting in, but I never thought about it in cars.  

I bought my first Honda Civic because they were the cheapest car that was considered really reliable at the time (manual transmission, no radio, no air conditioning, and roll down windows).  And my ex had a cousin who was the manager at a local dealership.  😁 I continued buying Honda's because I still consider them reliable but I do fall into the educated, white, upper middle class, suburban demographic. 

I do agree with the overall idea of most of us doing what the rest of our "group" does.   But I have been surprised that many of the "crunchy" usually anti or delayed vaxxers I know have been right on getting the Covid vaccine.  A friend who is a doula, training to be a mid-wife has mentioned the same thing - all of them in her group are vaccinated. 

That's interesting. Do these crunchy people consider themselves to be liberals? This is anecdotal but everyone I know who voted for Biden is vaccinated. This is a generalization but not vaccinating is seen as a GOP/Trump thing so people outside of that group were predisposed to get vaccinated. Look at how Naomi Wolf seemed to switch sides politically when she went contrarian about COVID. 

We're hearing stories about people in Missouri donning disguises to get vaccinated. What do you want to bet that there are liberals who lie about being vaccinated? 

 

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1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

Do you know how much Jeff Bezos paid in taxes?  I thought the tax returns of citizens were private and confidential.  

Even if I knew how much Jeff Bezos, or any person on this board paid in taxes, I don't see how that is connected to people making good decisions about COVID precautions and the vaccine.   How are those connected?  

 

Maybe they are supposed to be confidential but ProPublica obtained IRS data on thousands of wealthy people including Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk. 

The Secret IRS Files: Trove of Never-Before-Seen Records Reveal How the Wealthiest Avoid Income Tax

It is connected because it fits into the idea of the common good. We hope people make good choices about COVID to protect the common good. But it is harder for people to see the common good and want to work towards the common good in a society with tremendous wealth inequality and unfair treatment under the law, which includes taxes. 

There have been some articles written that explore the differences between corrupt cultures and non-corrupt cultures. Why is bribery common in some countries and less so in others? A good example of the latter being the USA. In a culture where there is a general belief that laws are applied equally and fairly, people are more likely to follow the rules themselves. 

Corruption and Cultural Differences

This is from the ProPublica article linked above. 

Quote

The results are stark. According to Forbes, those 25 people saw their worth rise a collective $401 billion from 2014 to 2018. They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That’s a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%.

It’s a completely different picture for middle-class Americans, for example, wage earners in their early 40s who have amassed a typical amount of wealth for people their age. From 2014 to 2018, such households saw their net worth expand by about $65,000 after taxes on average, mostly due to the rise in value of their homes. But because the vast bulk of their earnings were salaries, their tax bills were almost as much, nearly $62,000, over that five-year period.

and (bolding by me):

Quote

The consequences of allowing the most prosperous to game the tax system have been profound. Federal budgets, apart from military spending, have been constrained for decades. Roads and bridges have crumbled, social services have withered and the solvency of Social Security and Medicare is perpetually in question.

There is an even more fundamental issue than which programs get funded or not: Taxes are a kind of collective sacrifice. No one loves giving their hard-earned money to the government. But the system works only as long as it’s perceived to be fair.

Aren't vaccinations and mask wearing also kinds of "collective sacrifice?" 

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18 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

That's interesting. Do these crunchy people consider themselves to be liberals? This is anecdotal but everyone I know who voted for Biden is vaccinated. This is a generalization but not vaccinating is seen as a GOP/Trump thing so people outside of that group were predisposed to get vaccinated. Look at how Naomi Wolf seemed to switch sides politically when she went contrarian about COVID. 

We're hearing stories about people in Missouri donning disguises to get vaccinated. What do you want to bet that there are liberals who lie about being vaccinated? 

 

Yeah, but at my church, people were pretty vocal Trump supporters. Now, they didn't like him as a person, but believed that because of abortion, they had to vote for him rather than Biden who would.... Now every single one of them is vaccinated, even the person that was hesitant at first because of the use of fetal cells. But in my church, these are all middle to upper class. We sponsored a vaccination day. (The big hub did this and sent stuff out to all the churches. They had a special day.)

The outspoken ones here that are "the election was stolen from Trump," and all the vaccine conspiracy nonsense are what would be considered the "lower class" I guess. The ones I kind of know but don't socialize with. Though I hate that term. Barely graduated from high school. 

70 percent of our kids are considered economically disadvantaged.  My guess is that many of the ones unvaccinated are the ones in the Hispanic community, some of whom are illegal. Distrust for government runs deep, especially since many of them are from Honduras or Mexico. I wonder about bringing it to their neighborhood, but still do not know if they would trust it enough. 

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1 hour ago, Wheres Toto said:

That's an interesting idea.   I know fashion is pretty dictated by what others wear and fitting in, but I never thought about it in cars.  

I bought my first Honda Civic because they were the cheapest car that was considered really reliable at the time (manual transmission, no radio, no air conditioning, and roll down windows).  And my ex had a cousin who was the manager at a local dealership.  😁 I continued buying Honda's because I still consider them reliable but I do fall into the educated, white, upper middle class, suburban demographic. 

I do agree with the overall idea of most of us doing what the rest of our "group" does.   But I have been surprised that many of the "crunchy" usually anti or delayed vaxxers I know have been right on getting the Covid vaccine.  A friend who is a doula, training to be a mid-wife has mentioned the same thing - all of them in her group are vaccinated. 

This might be the article I saw years ago. I share the name with their ideal early 2000s buyer. Although, of course that is also *the* name for female Gen-Xers. 

Quote

For the 2001 model, Honda studied Civic owners-went into their homes, charted their seating requirements and measured their garages. From this thorough research, Honda concocted an ``aver- age'' buyer for the upcoming 2001 Civic. It even named the average buyer for the coupe, she was (we are not making this up) ``Jennifer.''

Honda presenters even showed us a picture of Jennifer; she's a babe, but apparently she is none too interested in nailing apexes, winding up through the gears or even drag racing. The direction Honda has headed with the new Civic is toward young, single female buyers and young families who want practicality, roominess and reliability. Performance doesn't matter to them the way it matters to those of us who recall fondly the '88 model.

2001 Honda Civic

 

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4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Maybe they are supposed to be confidential but ProPublica obtained IRS data on thousands of wealthy people including Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk. 

The Secret IRS Files: Trove of Never-Before-Seen Records Reveal How the Wealthiest Avoid Income Tax

It is connected because it fits into the idea of the common good. We hope people make good choices about COVID to protect the common good. But it is harder for people to see the common good and want to work towards the common good in a society with tremendous wealth inequality and unfair treatment under the law, which includes taxes. 

There have been some articles written that explore the differences between corrupt cultures and non-corrupt cultures. Why is bribery common in some countries and less so in others? A good example of the latter being the USA. In a culture where there is a general belief that laws are applied equally and fairly, people are more likely to follow the rules themselves. 

Corruption and Cultural Differences

This is from the ProPublica article linked above. 

and (bolding by me):

Aren't vaccinations and mask wearing also kinds of "collective sacrifice?" 

ProRepublica did not disclose how they obtained this information.  So, there is no way to fact check any of their claims.  I have ethical qualms with an organization if they have the information they do claim to have that was gathered the information illegally and then shared about citizens when there is no evidence of any law being broken or criminal activity.  If this organization wants to support tax reform, I am all for them doing so, but not in this way.

 It is my desire for people to use critical think skills and not pay attention to unsubstantiated propaganda--whether it is regarding COVID vaccines are other issues.  

But I am also not understanding your argument.  How can it be that people are not seeing the common good because they think that there is unfair treatment under the law but a few sentences latter say that "the USA. In a culture where there is a general belief that laws are applied equally and fairly, people are more likely to follow the rules themselves."   Are you arguing that the predominate view in the US is that there is unfair treatment under the law or fair treatment under the law?

 

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27 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

ProRepublica did not disclose how they obtained this information.  So, there is no way to fact check any of their claims.  I have ethical qualms with an organization if they have the information they do claim to have that was gathered the information illegally and then shared about citizens when there is no evidence of any law being broken or criminal activity.  If this organization wants to support tax reform, I am all for them doing so, but not in this way.

 It is my desire for people to use critical think skills and not pay attention to unsubstantiated propaganda--whether it is regarding COVID vaccines are other issues.  

But I am also not understanding your argument.  How can it be that people are not seeing the common good because they think that there is unfair treatment under the law but a few sentences latter say that "the USA. In a culture where there is a general belief that laws are applied equally and fairly, people are more likely to follow the rules themselves."   Are you arguing that the predominate view in the US is that there is unfair treatment under the law or fair treatment under the law?

 

Generally speaking (I'm speculating here - there are no hard facts or figures to back this up), there has been the idea in the US that there is fairness under the law. I write generally because the perceptions would be different in different communities. But I think that's changing as wealth inequality grows and people become more aware of the unfair treatment of others. That's my opinion and other people have different opinions about what is causing these changes. 

There were some interesting articles written after after Trump claimed that he didn't pay taxes because he was smart during one of the 2016 debates. This was a cultural shift. Every presidential candidate for years had shared his tax returns. Why was that the norm? It was a way of saying I do my part too or "we're all in this together." 

The argument for masking and vaccines have been that they promote the common good. "My mask protects you and your mask protects me." Underlying this is the expectation that most people will sacrifice for others or the "common good." I sacrifice for you and you sacrifice for me requires a trust in the system and in each other. 

If people believe that "the system" (yes, this is a generalization) doesn't work for them because it is unfair, will they sacrifice? 

This is the basis for grievance politics. 

 

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17 hours ago, AnneGG said:

I don’t usually say stuff like this but after being told 100s of times I’m not using my brain and not trusting God I just want to stomp my foot and say enough! 

Do it.  They may use the term “insolent pride” rather than narcissism in the Bible, but gaslighting is gaslighting. Lies and toxic positivity in the word of faith movement are a twisted adaptation of new-age religion, not something Biblical or even rooted in Christian tradition.  

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

This always confuses me - and yeah, I can only assume they have a different Bible than I do. Cause in mine, God loves Jesus a whole lot and he got crucified.....

They don’t read the Bible.  They listen to TV preachers who promise them riches for “sewing seeds of faith.”  Bribing and manipulating God to get your way is no different than witchcraft IMO.  

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9 hours ago, TexasProud said:

LOL. My first car I ever bought in the early 90's was a Civic. I only got rid of it because we couldn't fit our kids and all their stuff in it.  We had my husband's Accord for over 20 years. We bought another Civic that all of my children learned to drive on. Our youngest is still driving it. It is 12 years old and 150,000 miles. They really have been reliable for us!  Guess we are the perfect demographic.

Mine was a 1991 Honda Civic Hatchback in the baby blue.   I drove that for a very long time.  

8 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

That's interesting. Do these crunchy people consider themselves to be liberals? This is anecdotal but everyone I know who voted for Biden is vaccinated. This is a generalization but not vaccinating is seen as a GOP/Trump thing so people outside of that group were predisposed to get vaccinated. Look at how Naomi Wolf seemed to switch sides politically when she went contrarian about COVID. 

We're hearing stories about people in Missouri donning disguises to get vaccinated. What do you want to bet that there are liberals who lie about being vaccinated? 

 

My friend is definitely liberal.  I don't know about the rest of her midwife group but around here the crunchy people do tend to be liberal.

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1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Crunchy ppl are progressives here. 

Except when it comes to vaccines.

Crunchy people are their own group, though. I mean, they are left-wing people, but they tend to be conspiracy-minded on average. 

I did a lot of typically crunchy stuff (babywearing, baby-led weaning, infant potty-training, occasional cosleeping), so I've had a lot of contact with those groups. I definitely didn't quite feel like I belonged with the super skeptical scientific outlook, I have to say. Like, I didn't have the deep conviction that I was doing things the only right way, and they tended to. 

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14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Crunchy people are their own group, though. I mean, they are left-wing people, but they tend to be conspiracy-minded on average. 

I did a lot of typically crunchy stuff (babywearing, baby-led weaning, infant potty-training, occasional cosleeping), so I've had a lot of contact with those groups. I definitely didn't quite feel like I belonged with the super skeptical scientific outlook, I have to say. Like, I didn't have the deep conviction that I was doing things the only right way, and they tended to. 

Every anti vaxer I've ever met personally was a homeschooling Greens voter, lol. Big crossover in the secular homeschooling space here. 

Yeah, I used to feel very awkward being the one co-sleeping, extended breast feeding pro-vaccine person in the group. I kind of mastered the art of fading out of the convo when vaccines came up. 

One of my very best friends only had her kids vaccinated as part of a custody case. The only good thing about family court. 

I love these women, and align with them 99% but man, when they go anti vax they really go for it. 

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4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Every anti vaxer I've ever met personally was a homeschooling Greens voter, lol. Big crossover in the secular homeschooling space here. 

Yeah, I used to feel very awkward being the one co-sleeping, extended breast feeding pro-vaccine person in the group. I kind of mastered the art of fading out of the convo when vaccines came up. 

One of my very best friends only had her kids vaccinated as part of a custody case. The only good thing about family court. 

I love these women, and align with them 99% but man, when they go anti vax they really go for it. 

Yes, we have the same kind of thing over here. I'm used to it 😛 . 

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, we have the same kind of thing over here. I'm used to it 😛 . 

I mean, I know that the type of anti vaxers my friends are, are a minority of progressives, and I believe that in the US they don't form the biggest part of your problem! 

It's just funny for me that I've never met a conservative leaning anti vax person. Every Con I know (not many) just rocks up with their kid on schedule. Weird bubble I live in. 

 

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