newest covid propaganda is....

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, TheReader said:

Same. Ours also went so far as to forbid any public entity (schools included) from mandating masks.

I am so done with our governor. 

That is criminal. The blood of many people is on his hands. I do not believe in a higher power, but it would sure be nice if they were held accountable for their sins.
 

Edited July 30, 2021 by regentrude

[AbcdeDooDah]

10 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

So? 

Isn't that better?

I'm still trying to figure out how less infections, and 80% less severe illness, isn't worth it when it comes to the vaccine?

And we may find out a 3rd dose brings us back to high efficacy against infection/transmission. I mean, polio is at least 3 doese. Dtap/Tdap is 3-5 doses depending on age when you start. Hep B vaccine is 3 doses. I don't see why it would be surprising to anyone that Covid requires 3 doses. That's a common thing in vaccines. 

But so many wan to just give up, like, "well, yeah, i twould reduce deaths by 90% and ICU admissions hugely, and prevent a not insignificant number of infections and transmission...but it's not perfect, so why bother?"

 

I think it's great it reduces symptoms/hospitalizations. I think it's time to stop calling "breakthrough" cases "rare." 

Flip flopping, "vask-ed or masked," etc is not inspiring confidence in a booster. It's going to be a really hard sell. 

[TheReader]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is criminal. The blood of many people is on his hands. I do not believe in a higher power, but it would sure be nice if they were held accountable for their sins.
 

What's worse is his mandate literally says schools should follow all best health practices......and then turns around and says "except that they cannot mandate masks." 

It is horrible. He sticks in a sentence at the end that "just because no one can mandate masks, this does not stop people from wearing one if they choose."  

He has failed our state from Day One of Covid, and while he literally has entities begging him to at a minimum allow each district to decide for themselves whether to mandate masks or not, based on the situation in their area, he is steadfastly refusing. Nevermind all the under-12s can't even get vaccinated yet. It's just awful. And if he bothered to read his mandate, the contradictions between "follow the guidance of the CDC" but "no one can mandate masks".....mind.boggled. 

[TheReader]

10 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

I teach mostly children below 12 who cannot be vaccinated yet. I'm willing to take the risk of teaching them, but I want parents to support me on masks, handwashing, and keeping kids home with any symptoms. They did it last year,but I'm already getting pushback for this coming one. 

I'm struggling with this myself, too. I can't require them for my kiddos, but even in choosing to wear one myself, I know I'll get push-back from parents on that. I *think* I'll get buy-in on handwashing and staying home if they have symptoms, at least. Hopefully. 

 

37 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Nope. But setting health requirements to conduct business is fine with me - that’s why we have restaurant inspections, OSHA requirements, drug tests, labor laws, CPSC and other safety measures. These all protect public health. Vaccine requirements for school children protect public health. Are there vaccine exemptions? Sure, but remember that valid exceptions to the rule only work when people follow the rules. 

One thing that DH is finding is that companies are not mandating the vaccine, but in relaxing the mask requirements they are not required ONLY if the employee is vaccinated. They aren't asking for proof of the vaccine, BUT if an employee who has not been wearing his mask at work, ends up with Covid, he will then have to show proof of vaccine. If no vaccine, fired on the spot for violating the mask policy. Period. 

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, TheReader said:

Same. Ours also went so far as to forbid any public entity (schools included) from mandating masks. And there was just an announcement this morning about something to do with fining people that try to...? I can't quite sort it out, but apparently he wants it to all be personal responsibility, and businesses may open/remain open without restriction, except apparently they can be fined $1000 if they try and enforce a mask mandate??? 

I'm still tracking down the actual Order to see who exactly that applies to.  

I am so done with our governor. 

Ours forbids mayors and such from creating mask mandates, and forbids mask mandates in government offices/buildings. But private businesses can require them. So yay? Our schools just voted - masks are optional, even for unvaccinated. 

1 hour ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I think it's great it reduces symptoms/hospitalizations. I think it's time to stop calling "breakthrough" cases "rare." 

Flip flopping, "vask-ed or masked," etc is not inspiring confidence in a booster. It's going to be a really hard sell. 

I think they were rare, now they are not due to a new variant being dominant. Situation changed, so our actions need to change. 

It's like if you leave for the day and it is warm, but later clouds up and gets chilly so you put on a sweater. That doesn't mean the earlier weather was a lie, or there is a conspiracy around sweaters. It means you are using common sense and adapting to changing conditions. 

Why is that so hard to understand? 

[AbcdeDooDah]

9 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Ours forbids mayors and such from creating mask mandates, and forbids mask mandates in government offices/buildings. But private businesses can require them. So yay? Our schools just voted - masks are optional, even for unvaccinated. 

I think they were rare, now they are not due to a new variant being dominant. Situation changed, so our actions need to change. 

It's like if you leave for the day and it is warm, but later clouds up and gets chilly so you put on a sweater. That doesn't mean the earlier weather was a lie, or there is a conspiracy around sweaters. It means you are using common sense and adapting to changing conditions. 

Why is that so hard to understand? 

I'm telling you  what I'm hearing. People absolutely got the message that the vaccine was the way out of this because that's what the messaging was. They're feeling lied to. What's the point of getting vaxed if it changes almost nothing? They weigh the very low risk of death from Covid with the almost certain sickness with the vax. Still have to wear a mask, can still spread it to others (but nbd deal because at least they're morally in the right ?)

[QueenCat]

15 hours ago, ktgrok said:

My governor made that illegal in my state. 

I live on a hell mouth. 

Dh just had a conference in Orlando canceled. 

[Forget-Me-Not]

5 hours ago, AnneGG said:

Churches in our area held a prayer service to end COVID. Two days later they all refused to hold vaccine clinics. 
Every good gift comes from above. You asked, He answered. 

🙄 It’s like the old story about the guy who declined a rowboat, a motorboat, and a helicopter while the floodwaters rose around his house. 

[Murphy101]

4 hours ago, MEmama said:

Honestly, defeatist arguments like this are made in bad faith. What are you hoping to accomplish?
 

I disagree. It’s not defeatist at all to point out that setting up employment that is punishing people based on if you think you got it from them can open up huge problems. 

It’s not defeatist to say that no, doing anything at all, is not always better.

[Innisfree]

5 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

almost certain sickness with the vax.

So, just noting that I really don't think this is accurate. Did we ever get comprehensive figures on how many have side effects significant enough to keep them home from work? Mine certainly weren't.

[Corraleno]

10 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I'm telling you  what I'm hearing. People absolutely got the message that the vaccine was the way out of this because that's what the messaging was. They're feeling lied to. What's the point of getting vaxed if it changes almost nothing? They weigh the very low risk of death from Covid with the almost certain sickness with the vax. Still have to wear a mask, can still spread it to others (but nbd deal because at least they're morally in the right ?)

So much of this is flat out untrue. Getting vaxxed "changes almost nothing?" Even with Delta the vaccines significantly reduce the risk of catching or transmitting it, and they nearly eliminate the risk of hospitalization and death. How is that "almost nothing"??? And the idea that anyone who gets vaxxed is "almost certain" to get sick is also not accurate. Many people have nothing more than a sore arm, and those who experience other symptoms rarely feel bad for more than 24 hours. The idea that being almost totally protected against hospitalization and death, and largely protected from catching or transmitting it, is not worth the hassle of a sore arm or possibly a day of feeling crummy, is utterly absurd.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Corraleno

[Murphy101]

12 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I'm telling you  what I'm hearing. People absolutely got the message that the vaccine was the way out of this because that's what the messaging was. They're feeling lied to. What's the point of getting vaxed if it changes almost nothing? They weigh the very low risk of death from Covid with the almost certain sickness with the vax. Still have to wear a mask, can still spread it to others (but nbd deal because at least they're morally in the right ?)

This. I am very pro mask and pro moderna vax. But their reasoning that there’s no point if it doesn’t change anything is not *entirely* flawed.  And many people don’t get 1-4 days time off to recover from the vaccine either.  Or their health is already so bad that risking making it worse for 1-4 days makes them really nervous.

eta: I get that it does change things. That’s why I’m for the masks and for the moderna vax. But as far as how they are living their daily life? For many it changes nothing.  And they aren’t finding it a compelling argument that it is changing things they can’t see in their life. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

3 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

So, just noting that I really don't think this is accurate. Did we ever get comprehensive figures on how many have side effects significant enough to keep them home from work? Mine certainly weren't.

Almost everyone I know was unfit for work for at least one day afterwards. Both Dh and I and 2 grown kids were for both the first and second shot. Myself and one grown kid were down for a solid 3-4 days after the second shot. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

Just now, Corraleno said:

So much of this is flat out untrue. Getting vaxxed "changes almost nothing?" Even with Delta the vaccines significantly reduce the risk of catching or transmitting it, and they nearly eliminate the risk of hospitalization and death. How is that "almost nothing"??? And the idea that anyone ho gets vaxxed is "almost certain" to get sick is not accurate. Many people have nothing more than a sore arm, and those who experience other symptoms rarely feel bad for more than 24 hours. The idea that being almost totally protected against hospitalization and death, and largely protected from catching or transmitting it, is not worth the hassle of a sore arm or possibly a day of feeling crummy, is utterly absurd.

 

I wasn't clear. Changes almost nothing wrt to their daily life(mask wearing, etc). If they are inclined to follow more conservative need, they are hearing more about vax side effects/deaths.

[AbcdeDooDah]

The messaging calling this a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" is not only disingenuous, but dangerous.  

[ktgrok]

 

 wish orlando was canceled. 

[ktgrok]

I know what people are saying..but WHY can't they understand that LESS infection is better than MORE infection. That LESS illness is better than MORE illness. 

I mean, people are flat out saying, "if it only prevents serious illness and death, what's the point" and I don't know how to point out that preventing serious illness and death IS the point. 

And also are totally understand numbers between 0 and 100. Either it works 100 percent, or it is useless, according to many. HOW do they really think that? Are people THAT stupid that they don't get that even 40% less cases and transmission is better???? That 80% fewer people dying is BETTER!?!?!

 

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I'm telling you  what I'm hearing. People absolutely got the message that the vaccine was the way out of this because that's what the messaging was. They're feeling lied to. What's the point of getting vaxed if it changes almost nothing? They weigh the very low risk of death from Covid with the almost certain sickness with the vax. Still have to wear a mask, can still spread it to others (but nbd deal because at least they're morally in the right ?)

Just to repeat this part, because it seems to be getting missed repeatedly: the CDC data found the vaccines still reduce infections with delta 8-fold. I’d love to find a graph someone has done showing the difference between everyone having a vaccine with that level of effectiveness vs not. The infection curves and number of people infected would be very different. 

11 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

The messaging calling this a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" is not only disingenuous, but dangerous.  

I don’t understand this statement. How is it either? 99% of those dying now are unvaccinated, and almost that percentage of those hospitalized. How is it not a pandemic of the unvaccinated? Why do people particularly react to that statement when it’s purely descriptive of the actual situation? 

[AbcdeDooDah]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I know what people are saying..but WHY can't they understand that LESS infection is better than MORE infection. That LESS illness is better than MORE illness. 

I mean, people are flat out saying, "if it only prevents serious illness and death, what's the point" and I don't know how to point out that preventing serious illness and death IS the point. 

And also are totally understand numbers between 0 and 100. Either it works 100 percent, or it is useless, according to many. HOW do they really think that? Are people THAT stupid that they don't get that even 40% less cases and transmission is better???? That 80% fewer people dying is BETTER!?!?!

 

The messaging about the vaccine was absolutely about stopping the virus. Full stop. Many people are still trying to keep their houses, food on tbe table, etc. The flip-flopping messaging they continually hear causes them to tune out. I feel like WTM is not representative of the general public wrt to deeper research. Many people just can't/don't. They're trying to survive financially and mentally.

[AbcdeDooDah]

11 minutes ago, KSera said:

Just to repeat this part, because it seems to be getting missed repeatedly: the CDC data found the vaccines still reduce infections with delta 8-fold. I’d love to find a graph someone has done showing the difference between everyone having a vaccine with that level of effectiveness vs not. The infection curves and number of people infected would be very different. 

I don’t understand this statement. How is it either? 99% of those dying now are unvaccinated, and almost that percentage of those hospitalized. How is it not a pandemic of the unvaccinated? Why do people particularly react to that statement when it’s purely descriptive of the actual situation? 

99% since the beginning of the year. Again, vaccines were not widely available until April so if course those deaths were in tbe unvaccinated. The vaccinated are spreading it. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by AbcdeDooDah

[KSera]

This chart is illustrative. From the CDC data yesterday. 

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, TheReader said:

I'm struggling with this myself, too. I can't require them for my kiddos, but even in choosing to wear one myself, I know I'll get push-back from parents on that. I *think* I'll get buy-in on handwashing and staying home if they have symptoms, at least. Hopefully. 

 

One thing that DH is finding is that companies are not mandating the vaccine, but in relaxing the mask requirements they are not required ONLY if the employee is vaccinated. They aren't asking for proof of the vaccine, BUT if an employee who has not been wearing his mask at work, ends up with Covid, he will then have to show proof of vaccine. If no vaccine, fired on the spot for violating the mask policy. Period. 

 

Except that legally they can’t ask what he has if he calls in sick. 

[Innisfree]

1 minute ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

The messaging about the vaccine was absolutely about stopping the virus. Full stop. Many people are still trying to keep their houses, food on tbe table, etc. The flip-flopping messaging they continually hear causes them to tune out. I feel like WTM is not representative of the general public wrt to deeper research. Many people just can't/don't. They're trying to survive financially and mentally.

So what you're saying is that the data and the announcements have nuance, but the public understanding isn't able to grasp those nuances. Am I understanding that correctly?

I'm afraid we are reaping what we have sown. Abysmal science education has consequences.

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

99% since the beginning of the year. Again, vaccines were not widely available until April. The vaccinated are spreading it. 

I’m talking right now. Over 99% of those who died of Covid last month in the US were unvaccinated. 

[MEmama]

1 minute ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

99% since the beginning of the year. Again, vaccines were not widely available until April. The vaccinated are spreading it. 

Seriously, what is your point?

Once a person understands the situation (nearly everyone on this board) we’re not going to unlearn it and just throw up our hands in despair like you seem to want. What, exactly, are you advocating? 

[MEmama]

2 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

So what you're saying is that the data and the announcements have nuance, but the public understanding isn't able to grasp those nuances. Am I understanding that correctly?

I'm afraid we are reaping what we have sown. Abysmal science education has consequences.

Absolutely. Sometimes I am truly stunned that this an education board. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

I’m talking right now. Over 99% of those who died of Covid last month in the US were unvaccinated. 

Some of them undoubtedly caught it from the vaccinated. Calling it a pandemic of the unvaccinated sends the wrong message.

[AbcdeDooDah]

Just now, Plum said:

 

Not who you were quoting, but for me it's more of the shaming and blaming that msm and CDC are engaging in. It has now been proven that Delta essentially causes vaccinated people to become superspreaders, meaning they show little to no symptoms but are highly contagious and going about their day. This phrasing is only going to bite the CDC and MSM later. It's not a pandemic of the unvaccinated. It's a pandemic. 

I just find it unwise to say anything absolute about this pandemic. 

From StatNews:

 

Thank you. Yes 

[KSera]

6 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Some of them undoubtedly caught it from the vaccinated. Calling it a pandemic of the unvaccinated sends the wrong message.

I truly, honestly do not know what point you are trying to make. Should people not get the message that almost everyone dying of this is unvaccinated? Would it be better for people not to be vaccinated and the deaths to double? I don’t understand the goal. Some people will catch it from someone who is vaccinated. If they are vaccinated themself, they are almost certain not to die from it. What is the wrong message?

[AbcdeDooDah]

Read Plum's post above. 

[Corraleno]

So basically what this comes down to is "it's wrong to call it a pandemic of the unvaccinated because unvaccinated people don't like having it pointed out that they are causing the VAST majority of infections and virtually all hospitalizations and deaths and would rather pretend that vaccinated and unvaccinated people are equally like to spread it and that vaccinations make little to no difference." 

Nope, not going to contribute to the gas lighting.

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Plum said:

It has now been proven that Delta essentially causes vaccinated people to become superspreaders, meaning they show little to no symptoms but are highly contagious and going about their day.

That is not an accurate take at all. That’s not the definition of being a super spreader. Super spreaders are people who for some reason spread the illness to far more people than average. There have been unvaccinated super spreaders all along, long before we had a vaccine. Presence or absence of symptoms isn’t what defines it.
 

I have never stopped masking in public myself, and disagreed with the CDC’s May guidance change on that, fwiw. I’m glad the new guidance is that everyone should be masking in public, since we don’t know who could be shedding virus. That is appropriate. 

[Bootsie]

18 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’m talking right now. Over 99% of those who died of Covid last month in the US were unvaccinated. 

Can you tell me where I can find this data?  The last figures I am seeing at the CDC site were for May.

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Can you tell me where I can find this data?  The last figures I am seeing at the CDC site were for May.

I’ll see what I can find. I’m basing it off the June numbers which were widely reported everywhere as 99.2% of the almost 10,000 Covid deaths in June were unvaccinated.

Eta: here’s a link: https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/561585-fauci-more-than-99-of-people-who-died-from-covid-19-in-june-were-not

Or Fox, if you prefer: https://www.foxnews.com/health/fauci-vaccinated-people-extra-mile-wear-masks-in-areas-with-low-vaccination-rate

 

I don’t have access to the actual data. The CDC website isn’t that current for very recent death data. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by KSera

[Kanin]

52 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I wasn't clear. Changes almost nothing wrt to their daily life(mask wearing, etc). If they are inclined to follow more conservative need, they are hearing more about vax side effects/deaths.

Removing the fear of hospitalization and death is a pretty good daily life improvement for me. I am so much less worried about my loved ones (and their loved ones, and so on).

[Kanin]

34 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

So what you're saying is that the data and the announcements have nuance, but the public understanding isn't able to grasp those nuances. Am I understanding that correctly?

I'm afraid we are reaping what we have sown. Abysmal science education has consequences.

And abysmal language comprehension. As a special ed teacher, I cringe at all the vocabulary that is going over many people's heads. Lots of people may not understand because of language disabilities, and others perhaps because of poor literacy education.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

32 minutes ago, Plum said:

 

Not who you were quoting, but for me it's more of the shaming and blaming that msm and CDC are engaging in. It has now been proven that Delta essentially causes vaccinated people to become superspreaders, meaning they show little to no symptoms but are highly contagious and going about their day. This phrasing is only going to bite the CDC and MSM later. It's not a pandemic of the unvaccinated. It's a pandemic. 

I just find it unwise to say anything absolute about this pandemic. 

From StatNews:

 

A.  Vaccinated people are not the only ones spreading this virus.  I would postulate that in most areas unvaccinated people are spreading a lot more virus to each other than what is spread by vaccinated people. 

I do recognize that some vaccinated people are able to catch and transmit the virus.  This is different from the conspiracy theory that the vaccine itself is being shed and making people sick which some (not you, Plum) are spreading. 

B.  If more people were vaccinated then it wouldn't matter as much that SOME vaccinated people can spread it.  It would protect them from the majority of unvaccinated spreaders as well as the few vaccinated spreaders.  (Not 100% protection - no one ever said that it would be 100%)

This virus hits the unvaccinated harder.  It hospitalizes more of the unvaccinated - much more.  It kills more of the unvaccinated - much more.  The whole point of the slogan is to get more people vaccinated.  And honestly, quibbling about the wording of the slogan seems silly when a lot of these people won't vaccinate no matter what wording is used. 

[Murphy101]

31 minutes ago, Kanin said:

Removing the fear of hospitalization and death is a pretty good daily life improvement for me. I am so much less worried about my loved ones (and their loved ones, and so on).

But that is only true if they had that fear to begin with. Many frankly do not. In fact, most do not have a fear of covid hospitalization or death. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

The messaging about the vaccine was absolutely about stopping the virus. Full stop. Many people are still trying to keep their houses, food on tbe table, etc. The flip-flopping messaging they continually hear causes them to tune out. I feel like WTM is not representative of the general public wrt to deeper research. Many people just can't/don't. They're trying to survive financially and mentally.

And then the situation changed. When the vaccine was 90% plus effective at preventing infection at all, AND reduced viral load in those that had it 4 fold, the message was that the vaccine stopped the virus. As it should be. 

Then, a new variant became dominant, where the vaccine is less effective at preventing infection and transmission, but still effective at preventing death and hospitalization in the vast majority of cases. That's not as good, but still a good thing. The message changed because the virus changed. The facts changed. 

Why is that so hard to understand? If the weather changes, people throw on a coat or grab an umbrella. They don't stand there cold and wet because it is hypocritical to change the message or their actions. They adapt to changing situations. Why can't they do that with the virus?

[Pawz4me]

I'm certainly no epidemiologist, and I know in an unfolding pandemic they have to get data wherever they can, but I'm not sure that an outbreak in Provincetown is the best place for that. I wonder how many of those vaccinated and infected are living with HIV/AIDS and have suppressed immune systems?

And no, I am NOT saying that in a negative anti-LGBTQ way at all. But it's a well known haven (for lack of a better word). It just makes me wonder if there are confounding factors, and how those are being taken into consideration. And FWIW I've been there and thought it was a pretty cool place. So . . no aspersions, just curiosity about how the demographics might affect those findings.

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, Plum said:

Well......

 

But within weeks, health officials seemed to be on to something much bigger. The outbreak quickly grew to the hundreds and most of them appeared to be vaccinated.

As of Thursday, 882 people were tied to the Provincetown outbreak. Among those living in Massachusetts, 74% of them were fully immunized, yet officials said the vast majority were also reporting symptoms. Seven people were reported hospitalized.

The initial findings of the investigation led by the Massachusetts Department of Public Health, in conjunction with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, seemed to have huge implications.

https://abc13.com/cape-cod-covid-outbreak-cdc-mask-guidance-face-masks-delta-variant/10918914/

 

You all do understand that people who are vaccine hesitant might not trust the CDC or MSM and this type of language isn’t going to convince them? 

My understanding is that for most people symptoms are things like a headache or runny nose. Which 1. fine, I'm okay catching covid if that's the level of illness. and 2. many people already have as they are out and about this time of year, from allergies. So hard to tell if they even are from Covid. My son currently has Covid. If he filled out a form listing symptoms, he'd have to say yes, he has sinus congestion. But...he's been congested since February due to pollen allergies. 

That said, in areas with high numbers, both vaccinated and unvaccinated should be masking in high risk environments. 

And people should be testing when they have high exposure, and symptoms, when possible. 

[Murphy101]

In this very thread educated people who are pro vaccine have stated multiple times how much they disagree with some CDC decisions and statements.  Such as the mask mandates being reduced too early  and phrasing that can often be confusing or seemingly contradictory.

Now remove the educated factor.

And ask yourself in all honesty if it’s reasonable to be so angry that people don’t understand and make the obvious healthier choice?  Ask yourself if in light of that, it makes total sense that a whole lot of people are frankly just fed up and done with this stress and just want to go back to work and family and community like normal?

I may strongly disagree with doing so - but I cannot in sane logic fault them for that sentiment or thought process.

And at some point we need to discuss when is enough enough? Now it’s the delta variant. Maybe the next variant doesn’t respond to the vaccines or the newer vaccines are more questionable - then what? At what point do we say as a nation that okay it’s been 2 year? 10 years? Let’s recycle all the masks, stop making people inject their children or themselves against their will and pick up the pieces of what’s left of life and move on?

[Murphy101]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

And then the situation changed. When the vaccine was 90% plus effective at preventing infection at all, AND reduced viral load in those that had it 4 fold, the message was that the vaccine stopped the virus. As it should be. 

Then, a new variant became dominant, where the vaccine is less effective at preventing infection and transmission, but still effective at preventing death and hospitalization in the vast majority of cases. That's not as good, but still a good thing. The message changed because the virus changed. The facts changed. 

Why is that so hard to understand? If the weather changes, people throw on a coat or grab an umbrella. They don't stand there cold and wet because it is hypocritical to change the message or their actions. They adapt to changing situations. Why can't they do that with the virus?

I don’t think it’s that it’s necessarily hard to understand.  I think people have lived in hyper aware stress ness for over a year and thought they’d be seeing an end to that. It’s purely psychological reasons IMO.  Frankly. They are burnt out and more than ready to be D O N E with all things covid at this point.

[AbcdeDooDah]

11 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

But that is only true if they had that fear to begin with. Many frankly do not. In fact, most do not have a fear of covid hospitalization or death. 

Exactly.

[alisoncooks]

@Murphy101 - I've seen you mention that you are pro-Moderna only. Would you mind sharing why? (If you have already, I missed it...)

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think it’s that it’s necessarily hard to understand.  I think people have lived in hyper aware stress ness for over a year and thought they’d be seeing an end to that. It’s purely psychological reasons IMO.  Frankly. They are burnt out and more than ready to be D O N E with all things covid at this point.

But..it doesn't work that way. 

I'm an emotional basket case over this, but getting my kid or my mom killed won't lower my stress. 

Again, if a vaccine reduces infection by lets say, 1/3, and death 10 fold, why is that not enough to get vaccinated? 

And NONE Of any of that explains things like "the delta variant is a vaccine injury" when most sick people are not vaccinated. 

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think it’s that it’s necessarily hard to understand.  I think people have lived in hyper aware stress ness for over a year and thought they’d be seeing an end to that. It’s purely psychological reasons IMO.  Frankly. They are burnt out and more than ready to be D O N E with all things covid at this point.

Imagine how healthcare providers feel, who are exhausted and traumatized by the last year and a half of watching people die, and are now facing yet another wave of overwhelmed hospitals and preventable deaths because so many people have decided they are "done" with the inconvenience of wearing a small strip of fabric over their faces and don't want to risk a day of feeling a bit crummy to potentially save their own lives, let alone the lives of others in their community, or the health and sanity of the healthcare providers, who are often subjected to bullying and harassment on top of the trauma of their daily jobs.

Too bad healthcare workers can't just choose to be "done" with the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers.

[Matryoshka]

13 minutes ago, alisoncooks said:

@Murphy101 - I've seen you mention that you are pro-Moderna only. Would you mind sharing why? (If you have already, I missed it...)

Yeah, I'm a bit nosily curious too, lol... Pfizer has about the same efficacy stats (slightly higher on average), lower average side-effects after dosing, and uses the same tech. Why Moderna only?

(I can understand why not J&J if you have a choice...)

Edited July 30, 2021 by Matryoshka

[itsheresomewhere]

1 hour ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Some of them undoubtedly caught it from the vaccinated. Calling it a pandemic of the unvaccinated sends the wrong message.

I agree with this.  Especially in places who are not testing/getting a covid test is an ordeal if you are vaccinated.  

[Murphy101]

46 minutes ago, alisoncooks said:

@Murphy101 - I've seen you mention that you are pro-Moderna only. Would you mind sharing why? (If you have already, I missed it...)

I think moderna has been more transparent and the numbers are better with it. I like how it’s been created and for reasons not quite entirely understood yet, there’s some antidotal evidence it’s better for type 1 diabetics.  So for ME at this point, it’s moderna or nothing for my household. 

36 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Imagine how healthcare providers feel, who are exhausted and traumatized by the last year and a half of watching people die, and are now facing yet another wave of overwhelmed hospitals and preventable deaths because so many people have decided they are "done" with the inconvenience of wearing a small strip of fabric over their faces and don't want to risk a day of feeling a bit crummy to potentially save their own lives, let alone the lives of others in their community, or the health and sanity of the healthcare providers, who are often subjected to bullying and harassment on top of the trauma of their daily jobs.

Too bad healthcare workers can't just choose to be "done" with the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers.

I don’t disagree with any of that.  Never said otherwise. And yeah healthcare workers can and some are deciding to be done. There’s a lot who have decided to retire in my area and we didn’t have an abundance to begin with.

I can say I understand how people are thinking and feeling without agreeing with how they are acting.

But a huge problem with how this is being handled is refusing to address that how people are thinking and feeling is not actually entirely unreasonable.  If it’s as easy as telling people they are ignorant or jerks made them smarter and kinder, none of us would have anything to talk about here. We’d be living in utopia.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Murphy101