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Estranged adult children


SKL
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7 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I don't think there's utility in it. 

This parent has been a good grandma. Abuse is long, long in the past. Telling so that my kids will feel bad doesn't seem like a very good reason. 

It would be different if they had a poor relationship with my.mum, or if she was still abusive. 

I would just like for my kids to sometimes extend me a little grace, that's all. 

TMI

I think you are doing the right thing and giving your children a wonderful gift.

Edited by Frances
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12 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

@Mrs Tiggywinkle, did your mom talk to you about how people change or not so much? Was it just all a mystery? 

She never mentioned it.  My grandmother could be a little snappy but was never abusive towards us.

At the age of 82(!!) my grandmother was formally diagnosed with sensory processing disorder.  That went a long way to help my mom forgive her and move on.  My grandmother had 3 children in less than 3 years(youngest two were Irish twins). Then she lost a child in a terrible farming accident and he died in her arms.  She spent my mother’s childhood in a state of sensory overwhelm and then grief.

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I am apparently alone here, but I really can't imagine not mentioning someone's history of abuse or issues to my kids. If I thought it was done and over with, I'd be compassionate about it, and I'd try hard not to let it get in the way of the current relationship, but I guess I tend to think people deserve to know things as they really were. 

But to me, the value of this kind of truth goes past its utility, I guess. I can absolutely see why people don't mention it and understand that decision... I just don't think I'd make it myself, for better or worse. 

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4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I am apparently alone here, but I really can't imagine not mentioning someone's history of abuse or issues to my kids. If I thought it was done and over with, I'd be compassionate about it, and I'd try hard not to let it get in the way of the current relationship, but I guess I tend to think people deserve to know things as they really were. 

But to me, the value of this kind of truth goes past its utility, I guess. I can absolutely see why people don't mention it and understand that decision... I just don't think I'd make it myself, for better or worse. 

I wouldn’t when they are as young as yours. Knowing in general terms about my dad’s dad’s anger management issues ( I never met him and don’t know details) helped me have compassion for my dad’s struggles. He wasn’t abusive but did lose his temper in a big way every few years. You could tell he was trying super hard. 

On the other hand, the fact my great aunt threatened to kill my grandmother’s children bc she was jealous is something I wish I didn’t know. It was enough to know that M had some mental health issues and it was best she became estranged from the family. 

I guess what I’m saying is that it can be helpful to know about mental health issues and difficult/abusive upbringings in general terms bc we all come from human families. But if the person involved has passed or changed, I don’t think there is much value in sharing details. ( if still alive and being abusive My thoughts are different.)

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Just now, freesia said:

I wouldn’t when they are as young as yours. Knowing in general terms about my dad’s dad’s anger management issues ( I never met him and don’t know details) helped me have compassion for my dad’s struggles. He wasn’t abusive but did lose his temper in a big way every few years. You could tell he was trying super hard. 

On the other hand, the fact my great aunt threatened to kill my grandmother’s children bc she was jealous is something I wish I didn’t know. It was enough to know that M had some mental health issues and it was best she became estranged from the family. 

Yeah, I don't know that I'd share precise details with young kids. There's such a thing as not being age appropriate. 

 

Just now, freesia said:

I guess what I’m saying is that it can be helpful to know about mental health issues and difficult/abusive upbringings in general terms bc we all come from human families. But if the person involved has passed or changed, I don’t think there is much value in sharing details. ( if still alive and being abusive My thoughts are different.)

I can see that. 

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16 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I am apparently alone here, but I really can't imagine not mentioning someone's history of abuse or issues to my kids. If I thought it was done and over with, I'd be compassionate about it, and I'd try hard not to let it get in the way of the current relationship, but I guess I tend to think people deserve to know things as they really were. 

But to me, the value of this kind of truth goes past its utility, I guess. I can absolutely see why people don't mention it and understand that decision... I just don't think I'd make it myself, for better or worse. 

We do. Things I've said (kids currently 0-10) include:

1. Grandma 1 is mean when she drinks alcohol so we have asked her to not drink it around us. She drinks as soon as she wakes up so we can't see her, but if she stops drinking we will.

2. Grandma 2 has told us she will not respect our decisions and do things to you behind our back such as when she (did thing we asked her not to do) and (very bad thing happened to my children) happened. Until she decides to respect our choices we can't see her.

Oldest was 4 and upset when we lost my mom, oldest two were 10 and 7 when we lost MIL and were both relieved.

I plan to teach them about Cluster B personality disorders and then introduce them to emails we have from both moms and tell some stories when they are in high school. We often discuss personality disorders while watching movies as most villains are Cluster B. I really like this method because it's simple ang gives us the ability to discuss things like red flags. I just did some math and estimate that I've spend 2,000 hours studying NPD, APD and CPTSD, so I know enough to talk about it.

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I am apparently alone here, but I really can't imagine not mentioning someone's history of abuse or issues to my kids. If I thought it was done and over with, I'd be compassionate about it, and I'd try hard not to let it get in the way of the current relationship, but I guess I tend to think people deserve to know things as they really were. 

But to me, the value of this kind of truth goes past its utility, I guess. I can absolutely see why people don't mention it and understand that decision... I just don't think I'd make it myself, for better or worse. 

If you knew what some of the abuse was, I'm pretty sure you would agree with holding it back.  I'm not getting into details because it's way too personal & not my story to tell.  I will say that the individual who did the worst abuse was also the one I never met in my life.

Edited by SKL
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54 minutes ago, freesia said:

 

I guess what I’m saying is that it can be helpful to know about mental health issues and difficult/abusive upbringings in general terms bc we all come from human families. But if the person involved has passed or changed, I don’t think there is much value in sharing details. ( if still alive and being abusive My thoughts are different.)

if they were abusive - it helps to understand some of the behaviors of their victims.  I would still expect abuse victims to do what they can to overcome those effects.

 

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1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

if they were abusive - it helps to understand some of the behaviors of their victims.  I would still expect abuse victims to do what they can to overcome those effects.

 

Yes, I don’t mean I think they shouldn’t share if they want to, just that they shouldn’t feel they must share if they don’t want to. It’s helpful for the next generation to know there were struggles, but not mandatory to know the details. 

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I have always talked to my kids in age appropriate ways about other people's including adults in our lives behavior.  Not in a let's shame people way, but in an open the door to discussion and help build empathy kind of way.   I really regularly only delve in the past as it pertains to the present.  "Grandma had a father that didn't really value girls, so it's important to her that her voice is heard and sometimes that gets loud or overbearing".  "That bully at dance - I wonder what her family life is like at home and why she lashes out like that?  I wonder if she has been bullied".  I have modelled being self aware of my own behavior and apologizing at times when I react to a situation not as well as I could.  I also try to model not to allow myself to be steamrolled.  This week I contacted a corporate office after a really horrible retail experience that involved being shorted items, getting hung up and told my kids all about it.  

I have a sibling who has displayed a lot of poor behavior in front of my kids over the years that has really needed some talk.  We typically only see him like once a year prior to covid as it was, my kids haven't seen that family since the holidays 2019 and that was like less than an hour.   I was raised to think adults were flawless and not to be questioned.  Which served me very poorly.  

I totally get not delving into explicit details with young kids and not wanting to dive into that.  I can think of very explicit moments in my family that damaged me that I haven't shared with my kids and probably won't.  

 

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I want my grown sons to understand and know so they can be aware. We have talked, as they have witnessed and experienced to some extent (she’s on better behavior as a grandma, but still there is dysfunction that might not be apparent to them) her behavior. I want them to know, but I don’t want it to be in a way that’s not empathetic. So I struggle with that. 

My children don’t have a close relationship with my parents, and it’s becoming more clear that it’s for the best. My mom has better access and is closer to my nieces and nephews. I can see how mom is influencing them and normalizing things that aren’t normal. It greatly stresses me, but there is nothing I can do.

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39 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I have always talked to my kids in age appropriate ways about other people's including adults in our lives behavior.  Not in a let's shame people way, but in an open the door to discussion and help build empathy kind of way.   I really regularly only delve in the past as it pertains to the present.  "Grandma had a father that didn't really value girls, so it's important to her that her voice is heard and sometimes that gets loud or overbearing".  "That bully at dance - I wonder what her family life is like at home and why she lashes out like that?  I wonder if she has been bullied".  I have modelled being self aware of my own behavior and apologizing at times when I react to a situation not as well as I could.  I also try to model not to allow myself to be steamrolled.  This week I contacted a corporate office after a really horrible retail experience that involved being shorted items, getting hung up and told my kids all about it.  

I have a sibling who has displayed a lot of poor behavior in front of my kids over the years that has really needed some talk.  We typically only see him like once a year prior to covid as it was, my kids haven't seen that family since the holidays 2019 and that was like less than an hour.   I was raised to think adults were flawless and not to be questioned.  Which served me very poorly.  

I totally get not delving into explicit details with young kids and not wanting to dive into that.  I can think of very explicit moments in my family that damaged me that I haven't shared with my kids and probably won't.  

 

This kind of thing is great because it allows the person who is the recipient of bad behavior to think "This isn't necessarily about me, it's about what that person has gone through or is dealing with currently." 

The hardest part of abuse isn't the physical stuff that happens in the moment; its what happens when your brain internalizes what someone says and how they treat you. When a person has the power to say, "That person does these awful things because of WHO THEY ARE, not who I am." it helps the ickies to slide out of the mind, after the initial hurt wears off.

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1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I have always talked to my kids in age appropriate ways about other people's including adults in our lives behavior.  Not in a let's shame people way, but in an open the door to discussion and help build empathy kind of way.   I really regularly only delve in the past as it pertains to the present.  "Grandma had a father that didn't really value girls, so it's important to her that her voice is heard and sometimes that gets loud or overbearing".  "That bully at dance - I wonder what her family life is like at home and why she lashes out like that?  I wonder if she has been bullied".  I have modelled being self aware of my own behavior and apologizing at times when I react to a situation not as well as I could.  I also try to model not to allow myself to be steamrolled.  This week I contacted a corporate office after a really horrible retail experience that involved being shorted items, getting hung up and told my kids all about it. 

Oh, my goodness, this is so helpful for me to understand why political "discussions" between my SIL and mother get so out of control.  Neither felt they had an equal voice in their home (SIL more than mom).  I bet they ping off each other.  This never occurred to me.  Thank you so much.

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1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

This kind of thing is great because it allows the person who is the recipient of bad behavior to think "This isn't necessarily about me, it's about what that person has gone through or is dealing with currently." 

I've actually had a hard decision to make about this kind of thing, and I still don't know if I did it right or not. 

My little sister used to visit me for the summers, and as I said, my mom is a narcissist. This meant that basically EVERYTHING she said was self-serving, which means she had a sort of... disinformation forcefield around her, and my little sister would parrot everything she said. 

When she visited at age 14, she was parroting so unreflectingly that we didn't really talk to her about it. But the summer before her junior year, it was clear she was starting to question stuff, and we kind of had a decision to make: do we talk to her about the ways my mom is a really flawed person who shouldn't be listened to literally, or do we not? Both choices had drawbacks: if we didn't, then she'd believe stuff my mom said to her own detriment, and if we did, she'd have a harder time with my mom. 

We chose to tell her. And she had a rough year at home. But on the other hand, she no longer paid nearly as much attention to either the toxic ways my mom saw her or the really unhelpful advice my mom gave her. This was helpful in a variety of ways: for instance, she built much better relationships with her friends, since she stopped listening to my mom's awful advice. 

I still don't know if we did it right, as I said. Although on the other hand, I feel like my sister's relationship with my mom is going to wind up better than my relationship with my mom -- she doesn't have as many impressions of herself to unlearn, and she can think about my mom as a flawed and difficult person who still loves her, whereas I had to spend lots of time learning to see myself differently from how my mom did and still does. 

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3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I am apparently alone here, but I really can't imagine not mentioning someone's history of abuse or issues to my kids. If I thought it was done and over with, I'd be compassionate about it, and I'd try hard not to let it get in the way of the current relationship, but I guess I tend to think people deserve to know things as they really were. 

But to me, the value of this kind of truth goes past its utility, I guess. I can absolutely see why people don't mention it and understand that decision... I just don't think I'd make it myself, for better or worse. 

You aren't alone.  I do plan on telling the truth to DS13 about my family background. I'll share some things about DH's background, too, because I doubt DH will discuss it.  DS13 is going to need to know some of this stuff, like "So-and-so has mental health issues and isn't always a reliable narrator, so you have to keep that in mind when they tell you extraordinary things and ask for money". 

I try to pass on info in an age-appropriate way. Now that he's older, he's starting to ask a few questions. A few days ago, I told him that my dad was getting married again, and DS asked "So, how many times has he been married???". Like, he knows there's something strange about the situation. I'm not going to tear down my dad in front of DS; this is his grandpa and he loves him. But I won't sugar-coat the situation and act like it's totally normal to get married half a dozen times. 

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I’ve seen estrangement where it made perfect sense and I’ve seen estrangement where it seems like an over reaction or an adult child holding their parents to highly unreasonable standards.  

My younger brother confabulates a large amount of his life.  He believes things happened that just didn’t happen.  There are things that happened to me or things that I did that he believes happened to him or remembers himself doing, and at ages where he is old enough to remember what happened.  He was kind of a ratfink to our mom, not seeing her actions and choices in context and he was very harsh and unforgiving with her when she was alive.  Now that she’s dead tho he has practically sainted her.  Don’t get me wrong, my mom was a pretty amazing person on the balance but he was embittered and nasty to her when she was alive and accused her of shitty things like favoring one grandchild over another that simply were not true.   

I know other people who do this as well.  

I have two close friends who had very decent childhoods recast their parents as being abusive.  While I know that abuse can be well hidden the things that they are describing as abuse…aren’t abusive.  What they point to as egregious abuse doesn’t sound like abuse at all. One of these friends started going to Al Anon which surprised me a bit because there are no alcoholics in her family.  It came out that she decided that the 2 glasses of wine her mom drank every night were a problem.  I slept at this woman’s house a lot…it really was 1-2 glasses at most and not every night. I asked my friend if she ever knew her mom to drink more than that.  By her own admission, no she had never observed her mom drinking more than that.  But she was going to Al Anon and saying her mom had a serious problem with alcohol. 

In both of these friend’s cases, I know the parents well enough to know that they aren’t perfect but they aren’t horrible abusers either.  In one, I think that friend with mental health challenges she is loathe to address is adding a feather to her hard life narrative.  In the other, I think the friend is being highly critical of his mom largely because she has different opinions than him about a lot of things. I pointed out that his mom is entitled to her own quirks.  Lately, he seems to have dropped this narrative a bit.  

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On 7/28/2021 at 9:51 AM, Janeway said:

I know my 17 yr old has been reading a lot online, especially Reddit, but there have been other places. Then he started calling me Karen and making remarks about me, like I am racist, I get all my information from facebook, etc. If I get on his case for anything, he calls me a Karen. I get the usual sexist remarks from todays generation. There are also religion remarks. It is such pig junk. He has been disciplined out of this, but mostly, he is just not allowed to. I am sure part of it just lingers there in his thoughts. I will be limiting internet usage much more with the rest of the kids. If you go to Reddit and read the junk..and I hear the stuff on TikTok is worse...you will see where she got her terrible behavior from.

Yes, yes and yes.  Those are nasty sites!  

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5 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Some subreddit or another had my niece *convinced* that my brother is transphobic.  My brother transitioned two decades ago.

I've seen this.  If you don't act in blind worship of an idea, anything from transgender to homeschooling, you're against it, unsafe, and to be avoided for your mental health. The expectations aren't logical and unattainable.

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30 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

My kids know their grandmother's context (they know about the trauma she experienced, in general terms). 

I suppose in some senses they are lacking my context.

I think that impacts me more than it does them. But I could be wrong. 

 

 

My dad is a much better grandfather than he was a dad.  He wasn’t abusive like your mom but he was neglectful and erratic in ways that did endanger my safety.  Like you, I have decided to let my dad have his own relationship with their grandparent without weighing it down with my own issues with my dad.  Grandparents don’t grow on trees and my dad happens to be the only living grandparent they have who they get to see more than a few times a year. I think there’s value in letting people do better than they did before and in modeling forgiveness my sons.  

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5 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

My dad is a much better grandfather than he was a dad.  He wasn’t abusive like your mom but he was neglectful and erratic in ways that did endanger my safety.  Like you, I have decided to let my dad have his own relationship with their grandparent without weighing it down with my own issues with my dad.  Grandparents don’t grow on trees and my dad happens to be the only living grandparent they have who they get to see more than a few times a year. I think there’s value in letting people do better than they did before and in modeling forgiveness my sons.  

That is beautiful.

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Am I the only one who is maintaining some relationships but no longer allowing my kids to see certain people?

There have been some lines crossed as far as my kids, but yet my husband and I have some people we each do want to maintain a relationship with versus literally not talk to them at all.  

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There’s also a part of me that wonders if I would be better off if I had cut off a person in my young 20s instead of going along with all the mind-f____ over the years.  
 

 

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5 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

 

I have two close friends who had very decent childhoods recast their parents as being abusive.  While I know that abuse can be well hidden the things that they are describing as abuse…aren’t abusive.

Mm. I had a friend who has invested so heavily into having problems that he can't tell the difference between abuse and friendliness. He'd relate anecdotes about his boss being a condescending jerk and we'd say "Mate, he's giving you advice on how to care for yourself. That's nice and friendly. The guy is caring for you, not abusing you."

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57 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

My dad is a much better grandfather than he was a dad.  He wasn’t abusive like your mom but he was neglectful and erratic in ways that did endanger my safety.  Like you, I have decided to let my dad have his own relationship with their grandparent without weighing it down with my own issues with my dad.  Grandparents don’t grow on trees and my dad happens to be the only living grandparent they have who they get to see more than a few times a year. I think there’s value in letting people do better than they did before and in modeling forgiveness my sons.  

Same. The difference is that my father does not continue abuse, whereas my mother does.

2 minutes ago, Lecka said:

There’s also a part of me that wonders if I would be better off if I had cut off a person in my young 20s instead of going along with all the mind-f____ over the years.  

I wish I had. I particularly wish my children had not met their grandmothers because nothing about their relationship with them has been anything but toxic.

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4 hours ago, Lecka said:

Am I the only one who is maintaining some relationships but no longer allowing my kids to see certain people?

There have been some lines crossed as far as my kids, but yet my husband and I have some people we each do want to maintain a relationship with versus literally not talk to them at all.  

I don’t let my sons see:

-My older brother who is an abusive alcoholic and still very much in the throes of his addiction.  If that ever changed, I would probably be in contact with him on my own at first for a long time.  As it is, we have a very limited amount of contact.  He lives close and we see his kids all the time so this is a boundary that we have to maintain in a real way.  

-There’s a whole branch of my family (my maternal aunts and all their kids)  who I maintain some contact with (social media, phone, cards) but don’t let near my family.  They live far away so this is moot.  We’d have to go out of our way to see them.  My mom’s mom, who was extremely abusive and awful is now dead and I refused to let her come to my mom’s funeral and I refused to go to hers. My mom was physically disabled in two ways (lost most of her hearing and developed a seizure disorder from being hit in the head too often) from the abuse she sustained as a child and my grandmother was in and out of prison/engaged in ongoing criminal activities until she was in her 60s.  She was extremely abusive and toxic and she never changed.  My aunts aren’t that bad but their lives are very chaotic and full of things that my kids don’t need to be desensitized to.  

When my younger brother (who I do have a relationship with) was still married, I didn’t allow my sons to be around his husband without a parent present because of my BILs drinking and various behaviors. I refused to let my sons see any of my BILs family (who covered up and excused sexual abuse).  Now this is moot since my brother thankfully left the dude.  The only time I see him is if I pick up my nieces for my brother since he and his ex share custody.  

I am all for forgiveness and preserving relationships when doable but I draw the line at compromising my children’s stability and forgiveness isn’t a blank check to continue to be an abusive jerk.  

 

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4 hours ago, Lecka said:

Am I the only one who is maintaining some relationships but no longer allowing my kids to see certain people?

There have been some lines crossed as far as my kids, but yet my husband and I have some people we each do want to maintain a relationship with versus literally not talk to them at all.  

My son hasn't seen my mom and stepfather since he was about 4. I try to keep up some semblance of a relationship with them, but they aren't interested. I used to call once a month, but they don't return the calls, so I stopped.  

They arent very easy people to be around and are very negative. They take little pot-shots at me, like saying "Oh, you got hired by the Acme Widget. company? Hmm, they must have really lowered their standards if they hired you", and then smirk. When I call them out on poor behavior, they call me names and swear at me. 

When my mom compared my son unfavorably to her dog, that was it for me.  No more visits with mean, crazy grandma. 

 

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Ds had something scary happen this past week. He’s fine but it did spark a conversation where he told us that he was so thankful that he had “home”. That he was able to be 100% himself here and he knew no matter where we all ended up that he would always have “home”. It made me realize I never had that until I met dh. My parents and siblings were not a group I could ever truly be myself with because nothing I did was ever right or good enough. It’s obviously why I packed up my car at 20 and moved 1000 miles away. So, I’m glad that we were able to at least give that to our dc. I’m not sure if most kids grow up thinking they can be themselves with their family of origin but I sure didn’t. 

I didn’t really ever have to tell my dc anything about my family because they watched it all happen. Dh and both dc have apparently hated how my mom and siblings have treated me for as long as they can remember. I just took a bit longer to catch on. 

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33 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

My son hasn't seen my mom and stepfather since he was about 4. I try to keep up some semblance of a relationship with them, but they aren't interested. I used to call once a month, but they don't return the calls, so I stopped.  

They arent very easy people to be around and are very negative. They take little pot-shots at me, like saying "Oh, you got hired by the Acme Widget. company? Hmm, they must have really lowered their standards if they hired you", and then smirk. When I call them out on poor behavior, they call me names and swear at me. 

When my mom compared my son unfavorably to her dog, that was it for me.  No more visits with mean, crazy grandma. 

 

The last time I was in a room with my brother and his adult child, she skipped over introducing her boyfriend to my dc and instead introduced him to the family dog. She never acknowledged my dc at all. That was honestly the beginning of the end with my family because I haven’t seen my brother since. Then, things went south with my sister. Then, my mom got upset that I don’t have a relationship with either sibling so things are over with her too. I don’t get how people can be so cruel and expect no fallout.

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4 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

Ds had something scary happen this past week. He’s fine but it did spark a conversation where he told us that he was so thankful that he had “home”. That he was able to be 100% himself here and he knew no matter where we all ended up that he would always have “home”. It made me realize I never had that until I met dh. My parents and siblings were not a group I could ever truly be myself with because nothing I did was ever right or good enough. It’s obviously why I packed up my car at 20 and moved 1000 miles away. So, I’m glad that we were able to at least give that to our dc. I’m not sure if most kids grow up thinking they can be themselves with their family of origin but I sure didn’t. 

I didn’t really ever have to tell my dc anything about my family because they watched it all happen. Dh and both dc have apparently hated how my mom and siblings have treated me for as long as they can remember. I just took a bit longer to catch on. 

Yeah, I've never had a home where I felt safe until I got married. 

I hope the kids wind up feeling like they can be themselves with me... we've had a lot of conflict about schooling with my older girl this year, so I worry 😕

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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I've never had a home where I felt safe until I got married. 

I hope the kids wind up feeling like they can be themselves with me... we've had a lot of conflict about schooling with my older girl this year, so I worry 😕

Ds thinks homeschooling was an awful decision but he still told us the above. I worried a lot about how he would perceive things as an adult but as he’s gotten older things have actually been great. 

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2 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

Ds thinks homeschooling was an awful decision but he still told us the above. I worried a lot about how he would perceive things as an adult but as he’s gotten older things have actually been great. 

That's good to hear! Because homeschooling absolutely increases conflict around here. 

Why does your DS feel that way, if you don't mind me asking? Did he feel that way as a kid? 

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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's good to hear! Because homeschooling absolutely increases conflict around here. 

Why does your DS feel that way, if you don't mind me asking? Did he feel that way as a kid? 

We had a lot of trouble finding non conservative homeschoolers where we lived. One group thought those play stick on tattoos were the mark of the beast. 😳 It was lonely, which is why we stopped after fifth grade and they started ps for middle school. 

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3 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

We had a lot of trouble finding non conservative homeschoolers where we lived. One group thought those play stick on tattoos were the mark of the beast. 😳 It was lonely, which is why we stopped after fifth grade and they started ps for middle school. 

Eeeeeek. That would NOT work for us, lol. Honestly, I'm not sure I'd be able to homeschool outside a dense urban area... not that it does much good right about now! But still, the secular social groups are robust here. 

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My ds was not keen on the abundance of strongly Christian homeschoolers either. Actually, neither were my girls. They felt like outsiders frequently (which we were).

Mostly a problem at highschool age, mostly b/c those same cohorts tended to exhibit some homophobia and a sort of racism lite as they got older. 

Not all, of course. 

 

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