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s/o: premarital sex


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4 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, i have all of her books. But I have to say that, don't get me wrong, women have every right to pleasure, not saying that. But why on earth is an orgasm the end all be all and yardstick of fabulous sex? People are shocked and horrified, but what if it has nothing to do with conditioning. As I said, my parents were not religious. I didn't have any purity brainwashing. All that crap started when my children were growing up. But I guess I just wonder if we miss the point of sex in all of the drive to have absolutely mind blowing experiences, new experiences all the time. There is such a thing as just wanting comfort and that not being a second rate experience. It is ok. I don't want to be a sexual dynamo. I just want to be me, which means hot and heavy sometimes and not, sometimes. And that should be ok. It just should. Ok, I need to leave the thread because you guys are making me feel like I am broken and just terrible for not wanting a mind blowing O every single time. I am not broken. I am me. Please do not pity me.

I'm not pitying you. You are getting what you want, know your goals, etc. I linked those sources because the percentage idea was kind of being seen as a little bit fringe, and also because the author of the books/blog/podcast does espouse abstinence before marriage. I didn't think that the percentage issue and the abstinence issue should be seen as excluding one another.

I really didn't want to wade into this with too much personal information, but not everyone goes into marriage with well-formed expectations in this area, but if they are fortunate to have a great runs completed average, they shouldn't be made to feel bad for thinking that's normal either. If my average tanks, you can bet that two people are trying to fix it. I am glad that people can have a range of experiences that they are satisfied with. It's not always personal preference whether a person can be satisfied firing up the engines only to have nothing happen; it can be physically painful for that to happen, to be frank. 

The people I feel badly for are people who don't know there is research out there than can help them get their head on straight and/or know what they want. I can totally imagine that this is an issue where couples could drift away in bed over discouragement they keep to themselves. 

On the bolded, I am not sure who said anything about mind blowing and new, lol! Not required. 

You seem to like to think people are always trying to be down on you. Not the case. There are not only two options in this, there is a range, and like any range, healthy or not has a lot to do with the individual circumstances. 

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17 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

But that's not a problem with their partner, that's on them. And having a different partner wouldn't change things. Again, not about compatibility, not really. 

I never said there was a systematic problem with partners. Geeze, I said it was conceivable to me that anatomical barriers exist, that it was problematic FOR ME, when a partner was insufficiently endowed. That’s it. I think I’ve made it pretty clear that I think women with male partners have been hornswaggled into thinking orgasm is generally elusive and unlikely the vast majority of the time. I’ve also said I think it’s possible to determine compatibility absent sex if both parties are open and frank about their preferences and needs. Buuuut, I also think sometimes we don’t know that we even have a need until we’re confronted with something that is contrary to those needs because all of this is so hush, hush. When there is a 20-30% difference between orgasms in heterosexual/bi women and lesbian women and heterosexual men, I’m sorry, that’s not a med issue.

I get that referring to non-orgasmic sex as a chore or grin and bear it may be upsetting but what else is it when we normalize climax for men and not women and hold up non-reciprocal gift-giving as a generally accepted practice (and not for temporary or medical related reasons)? It serves to passify. 

Edited by Sneezyone
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6 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

Ok here is a question for people that may be tmi but do your spouses know when you don't have an orgasm or do you fake it? I know A LOT of women who fake it and I've never understood why

 

I do not, and would not fake it. 

5 minutes ago, kbutton said:

 

The people I feel badly for are people who don't know there is research out there than can help them get their head on straight and/or know what they want.

Oh for sure - and more research needs to be done on the physical side of it! Not a lot of medication options for low libido in women, for instance.  But that's not about compatibility either. 

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

When there is a 20-30% difference between orgasms in heterosexual/bi women and lesbian women and heterosexual men, I’m sorry, that’s not a med issue.

No, but it is obviously not an anatomical issue, either. It's stuff that can be learned/fixed. 

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2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I do not, and would not fake it. 

Oh for sure - and more research needs to be done on the physical side of it! Not a lot of medication options for low libido in women, for instance.  But that's not about compatibility either. 

No, but it is obviously not an anatomical issue, either. It's stuff that can be learned/fixed. 

Oh for heavens sake, no one said it always was/is…they simply pointed out that anatomy can be a barrier and has been for some of us.

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19 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

Ok here is a question for people that may be tmi but do your spouses know when you don't have an orgasm or do you fake it? I know A LOT of women who fake it and I've never understood why

 

DH is like the old man of the mountain. He knows all the things. Lol. ‘When Harry Met Sally’ wouldn’t pass the sniff test.

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33 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don’t fake and never have. I’m a terrible liar in general, lol.

Same. I’m basically a perfect batting average, with a rare anti-climactic event like, every seven years. But certain things will have to happen for achievement to be certain. I just have a mate who is happy to push the correct buttons and so, succeeds. And like HJ’s mate, mine would think there was no point if I wasn’t going to the moon. 

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58 minutes ago, marbel said:

re: achieving "the big o" 70%, 90%, 99.5% of the time...

When I talk about people here, I could mean myself, women who have personally confided in me, or it could be based on articles/books I've read on the topic. I'm not a scholar on the subject but as a human person I am interested. 

There are lots of reasons people might not climax all the time. There are lots of factors that go into it, particularly for women. It may be that achieving it may take more time/effort/energy than a person really wants to expend at the time. A person may sometimes wish to please their partner without reciprocity and that is legitimate. It is not necessarily, for every person, a path to frustration.; it can be satisfying in a different way. Harping on women's rights to satisfaction may put pressure on people who do not particularly feel unsatisfied if they don't climax every time. 

Note that I'm not saying "just give in to it, grin and bear it, and fake it till it's over." And I would never give "permission" to one person to demand satisfaction for him/herself whenever it's desired regardless of the other person's feelings. Nor would I say that people should not convey their desires to their partner. I'm saying, sometimes, some people are willing to set aside a specific pleasure for a time, putting another person first. I'm sure someone will say I've been "conditioned" to think that way. But there is equal conditioning out there that it has to be great all (or 95%?) of the time. So people can feel pressured to perform, as someone upthread said.  And feeling pressured just takes all the fun out of everything, doesn't it?  Maybe 70% of the time, it's so good, that the 30% of the time there's no climax isn't a problem. 

Given the stats, do you really think women with male partners are EQUALLY conditioned to expect/advocate for orgasmic satisfaction? Performance anxiety is a thing, sure, but why would that affect women with male partners so much more than women with female partners?

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4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Given the stats, do you really think women with male partners are EQUALLY conditioned to expect/advocate for orgasmic satisfaction? Performance anxiety is a thing, sure, but why would that affect women with male partners so much more than women with female partners?

I don't know, but I don't think we can blame the partner for a woman's expectations, you know? 

And switching partners won't fix that problem, unless maybe she switches to women? 

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Just now, ktgrok said:

I don't know, but I don't think we can blame the partner for a woman's expectations, you know? 

And switching partners won't fix that problem, unless maybe she switches to women? 

I don’t see that. Some partners are more giving.

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Another reason I'll mention for not hitting climax, can be sensory issues. I have SPD, and sometimes if I'm over stimulated from other stuff, I go right from "that's nice" to "too much, stop touching". This is not a compatibility problem as the same thing can happen solo, lol. It's totally a sensory processing thing. 

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I don’t see that. Some partners are more giving.

But that doesn't fix the issue of her advocating for herself, you know?

Like, if I like my coffee with two creams and no sugar, but I don't tell my husband that, its not his fault if he makes it a way I don't like. Sure, I can find other men and hope one guesses how I like my coffee, or I could just tell my husband what I want. Seems that answer makes more sense. 

Now, if the husband is unwilling to do what the wife needs, that's different but again, that sems like an issue that is global, not just n bed. 

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8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I don't know, but I don't think we can blame the partner for a woman's expectations, you know? 

And switching partners won't fix that problem, unless maybe she switches to women? 

If it’s a marriage especially, and you’re waiting until marriage to have sex, then yeah, I think there’s some teamwork involved in addressing those expectations. No one is suggesting randomly switching partners will solve anything. This discussion has clarified for me that I shouldn’t leave it entirely to DH to shape DSs understanding of coupling. We’ve talked about porn in the context of managing/maintaining reasonable expectations but not about partner satisfaction. Not sulking when you hear no, not initiating when you know your partner is in pain, etc. Those things matter.

Edited by Sneezyone
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We are obviously having 2 different convos here.

If 95% of people have premarital sex and only 50% ish percent of women regularly orgasm the issue is not that women don't have sex before marriage. 

The issue is outdated sexist expectations and lack of communication and information. 

Nothing about my pre-marital sexual experiences with my dh or anyone else influenced my current sex life in a positive way. Having married someone that loves me, listens to me, and wants to please me along with good communication is what have made things 'good.' 

I think us women maybe need to put out a PSA IRT to the female orgasm. Most guys want to be good at s*x, not just get off. If they don't then they are asshats that aren't good partners anyway. If we raise the bar on expectations more men and women will realize this is an expected part of s*x (barring physical issues obviously).

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2 minutes ago, Soror said:

We are obviously having 2 different convos here.

If 95% of people have premarital sex and only 50% ish percent of women regularly orgasm the issue is not that women don't have sex before marriage. 

The issue is outdated sexist expectations and lack of communication and information. 

Nothing about my pre-marital sexual experiences with my dh or anyone else influenced my current sex life in a positive way. Having married someone that loves me, listens to me, and wants to please me along with good communication is what have made things 'good.' 

I think us women maybe need to put out a PSA IRT to the female orgasm. Most guys want to be good at s*x, not just get off. If they don't then they are asshats that aren't good partners anyway. If we raise the bar on expectations more men and women will realize this is an expected part of s*x (barring physical issues obviously).

All true.

And maybe men and women should see that list of what makes for better encounters, and that penetration is not the end all be all for many women. 

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13 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

*I* openly, admittedly, and PROUDLY, ditched the guy with the tiny pecker. No regrets. I wouldn't have counseled your DH to leave you tho.

So, I have to ask... what do you mean by "proudly?" I'm imagining a terrible scene in which you shame the guy for this accident of anatomy. I don't assume my imagination is right, but when you shout it out like that... I'm just curious what you mean. 

Obviously you don't have to answer me; I won't get my feelings hurt if you don't. I'm just having a hard time figuring out how one proudly ends a relationship (or non-relationship that never really got started).  

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6 minutes ago, marbel said:

So, I have to ask... what do you mean by "proudly?" I'm imagining a terrible scene in which you shame the guy for this accident of anatomy. I don't assume my imagination is right, but when you shout it out like that... I'm just curious what you mean. 

Obviously you don't have to answer me; I won't get my feelings hurt if you don't. I'm just having a hard time figuring out how one proudly ends a relationship (or non-relationship that never really got started).  

And I'm till stuck reconciling the idea that satisfaction is linked to size of male anatomy, when lesbians have better satisfaction. 

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1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

When there is a 20-30% difference between orgasms in heterosexual/bi women and lesbian women . . . 

I wonder if this difference is partly connected to the more likely life choices of women with very little sex drive.  I know someone like this who speaks openly on this topic with me.  She rarely has any desire for sex.  She always wanted to marry, to be a mom, to have a life partner to form her own family unit with.  Most of the time, when they have sex, it is because she is "meeting him halfway", and not for her own satisfaction. 

I wonder if many women similar to her may be unlikely to seek out any sexual partners in general (of any orientation), but may be likely to seek (heterosexual) marriage for similar reasons to hers.

Edited by Condessa
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5 minutes ago, marbel said:

So, I have to ask... what do you mean by "proudly?" I'm imagining a terrible scene in which you shame the guy for this accident of anatomy. I don't assume my imagination is right, but when you shout it out like that... I'm just curious what you mean. 

Obviously you don't have to answer me; I won't get my feelings hurt if you don't. I'm just having a hard time figuring out how one proudly ends a relationship (or non-relationship that never really got started).  

Umm, no, I didn’t shame the guy. I’m sure he has a perfectly wonderful relationship with someone else. We attempted, it was a disaster, and we agreed never to revisit the incident. By proudly, I mean that I am not the least bit ashamed to express my preferences. If a tiny appendage isn’t for you, yeah, that’s an ok thing to own.

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2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

And I'm till stuck reconciling the idea that satisfaction is linked to size of male anatomy, when lesbians have better satisfaction. 

Let me make this perfectly, crystal clear. I am apparently a unicorn who achieves the best, most explosive climaxes through penetration. The inability to do that is a deal breaker for me. 

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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Let me make this perfectly, crystal clear. I am apparently a unicorn who achieves the best, most explosive climaxes through penetration. The inability to do that is a deal breaker for me. 

I think that IS quite uncommon, if it’s purely through that. I think it’s good to know what works for one, though! And knowing that should be more common…

Edited by Not_a_Number
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3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think that IS quite uncommon, if it’s purely through that. I think it’s good to know what works for one, though! And knowing that should be more common…

We’re out here in these streets, ok? Not that other things aren’t helpful but this is important for me and a solid 1/4-1/3 of other women. Unicorns are real, real, I say!

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Just now, Sneezyone said:

We’re out here in these streets, ok? Not that other things aren’t helpful but this is important for me and a solid 1/4-1/3 of other women. Unicorns are real, real, I say!

I mean, I do prefer that component to be involved, it just doesn’t suffice! Pretty much ever.

I don’t think a micropenis would do it for me, either.

(I’m going to have to edit this thread later, lol. So much TMI.)

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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, I do prefer that component to be involved, it just doesn’t suffice! Pretty much ever.

I don’t think a micropenis would do it for me, either.

(I’m going to have to edit this thread later, lol. So much TMI.)

This is why you need a good group of IRL girlfriends!

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12 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This is why you need a good group of IRL girlfriends!

Clearly, lol. Although honestly, I never went in this level of detail with friends.

We keep moving and leaving friends behind 😕 . It’s a bummer. I currently have plenty of mom friends (we get along and our kids are friends), but no one I feel tight with.

But I’m also too picky.

Edited by Not_a_Number
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50 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Now, if the husband is unwilling to do what the wife needs, that's different but again, that sems like an issue that is global, not just n bed. 

I think people can be really good at some things and really lousy at others that would seem to require the same personal qualities. Some people are very "in the moment" and meet those needs well but tend to not do so well in other areas of life that rely on managing competing priorities and such. Sometimes you just don't know that until the right life circumstances make it abundantly clear.

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12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

We keep moving and leaving friends behind 😕 . It’s a bummer. I currently have plenty of mom friends (we get along and our kids are right), but no one I feel tight with.

But I’m also too picky.

I tend to have constantly shifting barriers to making friends--not necessarily moving, but often having something change that puts me or others in a different social orbit abruptly. 

Being too picky is something I was accused of, and trying to overcome that led to some bad outcomes. Picky could mean a lot of different things, and your perception might be spot on, but it can be hard to be less picky while still filtering for the right fit. 

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22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Clearly, lol. Although honestly, I never went in this level of detail with friends.

We keep moving and leaving friends behind 😕 . It’s a bummer. I currently have plenty of mom friends (we get along and our kids are right), but no one I feel tight with.

But I’m also too picky.

Not picky, selective. That’s a level of trust I haven’t found since college. Adulting these days practically requires plastic, superficial relationships. Le sigh. It’s hard.

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36 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Let me make this perfectly, crystal clear. I am apparently a unicorn who achieves the best, most explosive climaxes through penetration. The inability to do that is a deal breaker for me. 

You're not the only unicorn participating in the conversation. But oddly I did not prior to dh. Sex before him wasn't bad or dissatisfying but penetration usually didn't result in climax. Now who knows if it was a compatibility thing, partner not lasting long enough for it to happen, or something else. But I didn't know how good it could be until dh came around.

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10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I tend to have constantly shifting barriers to making friends--not necessarily moving, but often having something change that puts me or others in a different social orbit abruptly. 

Being too picky is something I was accused of, and trying to overcome that led to some bad outcomes. Picky could mean a lot of different things, and your perception might be spot on, but it can be hard to be less picky while still filtering for the right fit. 

 

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Not picky, selective. That’s a level of trust I haven’t found since college. Adulting these days practically requires plastic, superficial relationships. Le sigh. It’s hard.

Honestly, I wasn't quite serious about the "too picky" -- mostly just poking fun at myself, but truthfully, I'm OK with my level of pickiness. 

I actually didn't have awesome friends in college, since I spent all my time fighting and making up with my then-boyfriend (it was NOT a healthy relationship.) But I had some good friends in grad school and a few good friends in Austin before we moved. I do try to keep in touch with people, but the lack of travel during the COVID year doesn't help -- I'm not great at keeping in touch by phone, especially when feeling stressed out and overwhelmed (like this whole darn year!) but my friends are even worse, so if I don't do it, no one does 😛 . 

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Backing up a bit to a more general perspective on waiting...  

Intimacy is an important part of my dh's relationship -- for many complicated reasons that I won't discuss here.  But let's just say that it's part of the reason our relationship has continued so easily and positively in the midst of some extraordinarily difficult times. 

But of course what bonds us most deeply is our minds.  Without that, everything else is worthless.  We trusted each other completely, understood each other deeply enough, and knew each other's character broadly enough that we committed ourselves to each other even though we hadn't yet experienced everything together.  I knew my dh's character was extremely giving, wise, humble, unselfish, and that he prioritized our relationship above everything.  I trusted that he was not withholding anything from me that would create barriers to a healthy sexual relationship, in the same way that I trusted he wasn't secretly hiding a mental health issue, or a drug addiction, or a child he fathered along the way.  Those things wouldn't necessarily have ended our relationship, but I'd expect him to be upfront about them before we committed to each other.

For people who say that trying out sex with each other was a necessity, what about trying out parenthood together first?  Or trying out how each other handles a serious illness?  Or trying out how each other would handle a financial disaster?  How they will handle old age together?  Issues with adult children?  And so many other things.  Because guaranteed, almost all of those things will happen at some point.  But we don't try out all of those things before committing to each other...we trust each other enough to know that we'll make our way through it, and will be there for each other no matter what.  

I'm sure glad my dh and I didn't decide on our long-term commitment to each other on a few nights of sex ahead of time, because that took time to develop.  It was (and still is) exciting and fun and beautiful to keep figuring it out together.

At the same time, it seems like views on sex (-- even though I do think of it as a really beautiful gift from God --) have been elevated to a very high pedestal of judgment among some Christians, while at the end of the day, I think it pales to what's most important during this life...    Like caring for the vulnerable, trying to right what is wrong in society, living an unselfish life, and so forth.  So various views on pre-marital sex have begun to feel more irrelevant to me, in comparison.  

 

 

 

 

Edited by J-rap
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I think the 'trying out' phrase is a bit misleading. Husband and I were together for four years before we married. We got to know each other through well and ill, smooth days and choppy seas,  travelling and at home, his family and mine. And yes, in bed. It was building a picture of our relationship as we grew towards commitment.

Sex would only have been a deal breaker, for me, if it showed him to be an uncaring person who was not otherwise evident.  Which could have happened, I suppose - people are quirky.

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Well I mean if it was an ongoing issue I would certainly communicate to dh that I still wanted to be intimate because that is important to me but he'd need to be ok with me not climaxing in order for me to have sex in the first place. If he couldn't respect that then we wouldn't be having sex

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2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Let me make this perfectly, crystal clear. I am apparently a unicorn who achieves the best, most explosive climaxes through penetration. The inability to do that is a deal breaker for me. 

Ditto

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1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

 

Well in the moment he wouldn't stop but if we communicated  prior to starting he'd understand the boundaries and respect them. If he would be unable to stop viewing himself as selfish we wouldn't be having sex

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10 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Let me make this perfectly, crystal clear. 

Fascinating. I’m the, er, other way. <edited the deets> 

Edited by Quill
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On 7/26/2021 at 7:42 PM, Sneezyone said:

*I* openly, admittedly, and PROUDLY, ditched the guy with the tiny pecker. No regrets.

I am very probably a horrible person for admitting this, but this sentence made me snort coffee all over myself, my keyboard, and the kitten. 

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38 minutes ago, skywards said:

I am very probably a horrible person for admitting this, but this sentence made me snort coffee all over myself, my keyboard, and the kitten. 

Personally, it’s one of my all time favorite posts. Ever.  
 

Sneezy needs an award for that one.

 

(Another member of Team Big O here, but mostly quiet on this thread due to sick kid care.  Just reading along and nodding.)

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