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Allowing (encouraging) your teen to have s*x


DawnM
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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

And that’s your choice. I would not. If they want to date at 17 - they are going to have to make it happen on their own. I’m not going to facilitate or finance it. 

What poop.  Saying someone ready to have a serious relationship and sexual activity should be ready to not need their mama to facilitate or finance it has nothing to do with anyone’s views on sex. I think in healthy romantic relationships of any age or type, the boundary of not needing parents to facilitate it or finance is a damn good boundary to keep.

Obviously not everyone has to agree with me. 

Again. Completely off topic. Anyone who knows me on this board knows I drive my kids to jobs and schools and churches and friends and all such kinds of things at all hours of the day and night.  For nearly any intent or purpose there’s no other transit option in my city or state either.

But nope. I’m not driving them to dates. I’m not paying for anything wrt to their sexual activity or their dates.  I’m not helping to set them up.  None of that has anything at all to do with any of my kids getting jobs, buying their own cars (which 5/11 have all done btw), hanging out with their peers in a non romantic way, or a romantic way if they can manage it on their own at 16+ or for that matter with their bf or gf joining us for family events or just for a game night or dinner. 

Good grief.

There is a difference between not paying for it or driving them and "pimping out" your teen.

I am not driving them to go have s*x or facilitating it in any way.   They did not engage in sexual activity and that is a giant leap made about going to the mall or going to the amusement park.

Dates do not equal sex.

 

 

Edited by DawnM
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1 minute ago, pinball said:

@DawnM

are you missing a “not” in front of driving?

it could be me...but I think you might have meant you are not driving them to go have...

ha, yes, fixed it.  thanks

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3 hours ago, DawnM said:

There is a difference between not paying for it or driving them and "pimping out" your teen.

I am not driving them to go have s*x or facilitating it in any way.   They did not engage in sexual activity and that is a giant leap made about going to the mall or going to the amusement park.

Dates do not equal sex.

I never said they equaled sex. For ME it simply does not matter. If they are ready for dating, then they are ready to have dates without mom’s help, regardless of the sex factor.

Again. No one has to agree with me. Obviously.

Edited by Murphy101
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2 hours ago, DawnM said:

There is a difference between not paying for it or driving them and "pimping out" your teen.

I am not driving them to go have s*x or facilitating it in any way.   They did not engage in sexual activity and that is a giant leap made about going to the mall or going to the amusement park.

Dates do not equal sex.

 

 

I think what Murphy is saying with the use of the word “pimp” is that she believes parental facilitation of dating relationships is inevitably going to be conditional on whether and how much the parents approve of the person/relationship and that the conditionality exerts a coercive pressure which doesn’t respect the agency of the young people in question.

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1 minute ago, Danae said:

I think what Murphy is saying with the use of the word “pimp” is that she believes parental facilitation of dating relationships is inevitably going to be conditional on whether and how much the parents approve of the person/relationship and that the conditionality exerts a coercive pressure which doesn’t respect the agency of the young people in question.

This does not make sense to me. 

Driving your teen to a house puts coercive pressure on them? What?!

 

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13 minutes ago, Danae said:

I think what Murphy is saying with the use of the word “pimp” is that she believes parental facilitation of dating relationships is inevitably going to be conditional on whether and how much the parents approve of the person/relationship and that the conditionality exerts a coercive pressure which doesn’t respect the agency of the young people in question.

So, I will admit that if my kid dated, or was friends with, someone I thought was a bad influence, I would reserve the right to refuse to take him there.  So, I guess that's coercing him.  But when my kid comes to me and says "Hey, can you drop me at Hildegarde's, we're going to take her dog for a walk (most recent covid date)?" I don't see me saying "yes" as coercive.

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10 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Seriously?

Yes.

I’m not saying I agree, I’m saying I can follow the logic, and it doesn’t involve not understanding what pimping, trafficking, etc. entails.  
 

I also think that if one has experience of parents being overly invested in their children’s romantic decision it’s not crazy to want to draw a hard line around that. Even if it’s not a line I would draw. 

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42 minutes ago, Danae said:

Yes.

I’m not saying I agree, I’m saying I can follow the logic, and it doesn’t involve not understanding what pimping, trafficking, etc. entails.  
 

I also think that if one has experience of parents being overly invested in their children’s romantic decision it’s not crazy to want to draw a hard line around that. Even if it’s not a line I would draw. 

How is giving your freely consenting older teen  a lift to meet their girl/boyfriend coercion?

I think it's really irresponsible to use words like coercion, procurement and pimping to describe very normal, functional parenting behaviours. 

*I don't give lifts, so no skin off my nose. 

Edited by Melissa Louise
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Just now, Melissa Louise said:

How is giving your kid a lift to their girl/boyfriend's house coercion? 

I think it's really irresponsible to use words like coercion, procurement and pimping to describe very normal parenting behaviours. 

It’s coercive if the ride is conditional on approval of the relationship.  

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Just now, Danae said:

It’s coercive if the ride is conditional on approval of the relationship.  

What?

No, it's not. 

It's coercive if your kid doesn't want the lift, doesn't want to meet the other person, and you force them into them into being driven there anyway. 

 

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1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

This does not make sense to me. 

Driving your teen to a house puts coercive pressure on them? What?!

 

It puts their romantic relationship dependent on parent involvement and I’m a hard pass on that. Full stop.  Coercive or not, I want no part of whether they have the relationship or whether it works out or not. To me if they cannot have a romantic relationship unless I facilitate it in some manner - then they are not ready for such relationship.

It’s literally never been an issue with 6/11 kids so far. It was literally never an issue for either my husband or I or anyone we knew as teens and young adults.

 

Edited by Murphy101
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10 hours ago, Danae said:

It’s coercive if the ride is conditional on approval of the relationship.  

I guess I coerce then, because if my son were hanging out with kids on drugs and I didn't like it, I wouldn't give him a ride to go hang out with kids on drugs.

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10 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

It puts their romantic relationship dependent on parent involvement and I’m a hard pass on that. Full stop.  Coercive or not, I want no part of whether they have the relationship or whether it works out or not. To me if they cannot have a romantic relationship unless I facilitate it in some manner - then they are not ready for such relationship.

It’s literally never been an issue with 6/11 kids so far. It was literally never an issue for either my husband or I or anyone we knew as teens and young adults.

 

It wasn't an issue for me either, I went to boarding school and my romantic interests lived on the same campus I did! 😂

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I have a 16 yr old who will be living in a college dorm in less than a month. One of the first things that was said to parents at the honors student weekend zoom was that despite attending a women's college, kids would likely have sex, and that Student health and housing would make birth control and STD  information and materials, including prescriptions very readily. 

 

My teen hasn't dated-Covid hitting kind of messed that up, as did the simple fact of being several years younger on a college campus for DE. I kind of wish that dating HAD happened while still at home, simply because if I'd been driving to facilitate dating, I also would have had a chance to know the people involved and talk with my teen. As it stands, I likely won't be involved until the relationship has become serious-or failed. 

Edited by Dmmetler
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This is so weird to me. Does no one else’s kid have a car/job? We helped DD find her car, nothing super expensive b/c it was purchased outright, and she goes (mostly) wherever she wants/needs to go. If you’re relying on withholding transportation to keep your teens from making poor decisions, there are bigger issues.

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12 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I have a 16 yr old who will be living in a college dorm in less than a month. One of the first things that was said to parents at the honors student weekend zoom was that despite attending a women's college, kids would likely have sex, and that Student health and housing would make birth control and STD  information and materials, including prescriptions very readily. 

 

My teen hasn't dated-Covid hitting kind of messed that up, as did the simple fact of being several years younger on a college campus for DE. I kind of wish that dating HAD happened while still at home, simply because if I'd been driving to facilitate dating, I also would have had a chance to know the people involved and talk with my teen. As it stands, I likely won't be involved until the relationship has become serious-or failed. 

I don’t know what you mean by “involved”.  I have grown kids who dated without any of my knowledge for the first time after moving out. We talk about bad dates good dates and so forth still.  A few months ago the entire family had a good laugh with daughter trying out Catholic match and the only Catholic guy on it within 50 miles of where she currently lives was one of her brothers who hadn’t told anyone he was on it.😂

I suspect I won’t know they are serious until they invite someone to a family event.  And that’s okay. I didn’t get to choose my kids until they showed up and I don’t get to choose my in-law kids either. It won’t change that I’ll love them and welcome them. 

Edited by Murphy101
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8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This is so weird to me. Does no one else’s kid have a car/job? We helped DD find her car, nothing super expensive b/c it was purchased outright, and she goes (mostly) wherever she wants/needs to go. If you’re relying on withholding transportation to keep your teens from making poor decisions, there are bigger issues.

I gave my son rides before he had his license.  Covid held up getting his license, which stunk.   The DMV was closed for a long time.

Although, once Covid hit the malls and amusement parks were closed.   

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10 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t know what you mean by “involved”.  I have grown kids who dated without any of my knowledge for the first time after moving out. We talk about bad dates good dates and so forth still.  A few months ago the entire family had a good laugh with daughter trying out Catholic match and the only Catholic guy on it within 50 miles of where she currently lives was one of her brothers who hadn’t told anyone he was on it.😂

I suspect I won’t know they are serious until they invite someone to a family event.  And that’s okay. I didn’t get to choose my kids until they showed up and I don’t get to choose my in-law kids either. It won’t change that I’ll love them and welcome them. 

As someone who didn't date until moving out due to having pretty restrictive parents, there were some choices I made that were less than ideal, and it was hard to get out of that relationship, in large part because my background basically said that dating led to the altar, a house, children, etc. Breaking up felt more like getting a divorce than like a normal process. Maybe if I'd been encouraged to date casually, or felt that I COULD bring a date to something my family was doing anyway, I would have felt more comfortable NOT treating each relationship like it had to be a long term, committed thing. 

 

And I know that for my kid, the best conversations happen while in the car, or just incidentally. In another three weeks, there won't be incidental conversations, only intentional ones. That terrifies me. 

Edited by Dmmetler
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2 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

As someone who didn't date until moving out due to having pretty restrictive parents, there were some choices I made that were less than ideal, and it was hard to get out of that relationship, in large part because my background basically said that dating led to the altar, a house, children, etc. Breaking up felt more like getting a divorce than like a normal process. Maybe if I'd been encouraged to date casually, or felt that I COULD bring a date to something my family was doing anyway, I would have felt more comfortable NOT treating each relationship like it had to be a long term, committed thing. 

 

And I know that for my kid, the best conversations happen while in the car, or just incidentally. In another three weeks, there won't be incidental conversations, only intentional ones. That terrifies me. 

Ah. Oh. Well have you raised your kid to think dating always leads to the alter? If not, then I don’t see what the problem is. You should talk to her about this before she leaves in 3 weeks. Unspoken expectations and fears trash relationships. 

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23 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I gave my son rides before he had his license.  Covid held up getting his license, which stunk.   The DMV was closed for a long time.

Although, once Covid hit the malls and amusement parks were closed.   

This part. I can’t imagine holding DC up b/c covid delayed these rites of passage. DD was ready and chomping at the bit to be out and about.

I don’t have any objections to dating or even premarital sex in general tho and I haven’t seen any correlation between it’s presence/absence and divorce rates. Instead of chastity, we emphasize individual/couple readiness and maturity (honesty with parents and themselves, responsibility, consistency/commitment, self-awareness, among others) as the precursors to serious relationships. So far, neither of our DC have felt ready for anything more than occasional dates and chats. We concur. lol. ‘Friends’ are welcome in our home for dinner, movies and hang outs and oldest is free to go to off site events.

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

🤣🤣🤣

I don’t know what happened to the quote but the story about your daughter finding the only available “match” to be your son made me literally laugh out loud. 

Edited by Hyacinth
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On 7/24/2021 at 12:52 PM, Murphy101 said:

I think it’s icky. Religious POV aside, I think it’s icky to have any financial contribution or do the setting up of my kid getting with someone romantically.  I’d feel like I was pimping my kid and that’s a hard hells no for me.

We also won’t drive them to dates.  So at least I’m consistent. LOL

I have always had a policy that a child not old enough to do something on their own probably isn’t old enough to help do it.  So for example if we went to a playground and they couldn’t climb the jungle gym themselves - we never picked them up and put them on it. We might discuss pointers of foot placement or encouragement but we never actually made it happen for them. Bc they obviously to me were not developmentally ready to do that.  It’s not been a perfect marker of development - but it’s been a surprisingly accurate one most of the time.

We sorta defaulted to romantic relationships the same way. They have to be able to schedule it and arrange it and afford it all on their own.  I’d feel icky if I was involved in making that happen for them.

As for sleeping arrangements.  I’d be extremely surprised if any of my kids thought they had a chance of us setting up the rooms so they could have conjugal time with their bf/gf. We have had adult relatives and friends stay with us who have live in arrangements and when they stay with us - they get separate rooms and it’s not even discussed. They presume they will sleep in separate rooms and there’s no angst of anything about it. This has included my own father when he was alive, uncles, roommates of older siblings, family friends…

Do you drive them to hang out with friends? Or are your kids socially isolated entirely until they purchase their first car?

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53 minutes ago, hippymamato3 said:

Do you drive them to hang out with friends? Or are your kids socially isolated entirely until they purchase their first car?

As I already said and as anyone who knows me here - my kids are far from socially isolated.  They work, they volunteer, they have hobbies and friends outside of our home. Usually I drive them to those things, sometimes they walk or get a ride from siblings or others.

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

As I already said and as anyone who knows me here - my kids are far from socially isolated.  They work, they volunteer, they have hobbies and friends outside of our home. Usually I drive them to those things, sometimes they walk or get a ride from siblings or others.

So if they are dating someone they work or volunteer with, then they are covered I guess.

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24 minutes ago, hippymamato3 said:

So if they are dating someone they work or volunteer with, then they are covered I guess.

I guess if you think that it’s dating to work at the same place  Which seems odd to me. But whatever. If they are ready to date, then they will have the means to go on a date without my help.  I met my husband at school.  We never considered being at school for school going on a date.

Edited by Murphy101
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6 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

My teen hasn't dated-Covid hitting kind of messed that up, as did the simple fact of being several years younger on a college campus for DE. I kind of wish that dating HAD happened while still at home, simply because if I'd been driving to facilitate dating, I also would have had a chance to know the people involved and talk with my teen. As it stands, I likely won't be involved until the relationship has become serious-or failed. 

Yeah, same. DS hasn’t dated anyone and I honestly think it’s rather a shame. I used to sort of fret over it, but in reality very, very few in his friend group dated at all during high school. Culturally in his group it’s more common not to.

 I kind of worry that his first experiences will be when he’s far away from home. It’s too late for many more conversations; I’ve done my best talking with/to him about consent, about safety—both in watching out for his female friends' safety and also his own sexual and emotional safety, I’ve provided info on PrEP and emphasized condom use….but ugh, I just hate to think of him navigating all the ups and downs without us nearby for support. I probably sound like an overbearing mama, I promise I’m not.
 

Also on a selfish level I *want* to get to know the people he is involved with and shares his life with. I just think it would be neat and exciting, and I’m afraid I won’t get to hear much about it once he’s out of the house. I know it’s normal—I promise I’m not being nosy or weird. But I can’t help feeling a little sad.

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Okay, but if you'll drive them to visit their non-dating friends then all they have to do is keep on telling you it's a group hang with a whole bunch of (unspecified) people, one of whom they haven't told you they're dating.

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27 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Yeah, same. DS hasn’t dated anyone and I honestly think it’s rather a shame. I used to sort of fret over it, but in reality very, very few in his friend group dated at all during high school. Culturally in his group it’s more common not to.

My kids have told me the meaning for dating has shifted. When I was dating in the 80's, I would date several boys at the same time. Now, that would be referred to as "talking with (or to)". But once they start dating, they are what I would've termed "going steady". IOW, they're exclusive to each other.

I wanted them to date while they were in high school so we could guide them. 2 of my 3 dated in high school and college. I'm not sure that the dd who just graduated from college has dated, though she may not tell us. It's a different world for sure! None of them have a significant other and I don't see any of them feeling like they need to have one.

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2 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Okay, but if you'll drive them to visit their non-dating friends then all they have to do is keep on telling you it's a group hang with a whole bunch of (unspecified) people, one of whom they haven't told you they're dating.

Sure. And if they want to hang out with friends and one of those friends is someone they have a crush on? Whatever.  I know most everyone they hang out with. I know their bosses. They bring their friends over frequently. Some of their friends have literally moved in with us at times.  But if what you are really saying is some smug version of trying to inform me that my kids could always just lie to me? Sure they could and have lied about all kinds of things over the years bc they are imperfect humans.  What’s your point? I’ve never suggested my kids are perfect innocent sheltered beings or that they’d never lie to me.

This is how I view it very very simply:

 If they are ready to date, then they shouldn’t need mom to help them go on a date.  It’s just that simple to me. Obviously if you feel differently then that’s just fine and dandy. You parent your kids and I’ll parent mine. 

Edited by Murphy101
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10 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Sure. And if they want to hang out with friends and one of those friends is someone they have a crush on? Whatever.  I know most everyone they hang out with. I know their bosses. They bring their friends over frequently. Some of their friends have literally moved in with us at times.  But if what you are really saying is some smug version of trying to inform me that my kids could always just lie to me? Sure they could and have lied about all kinds of things over the years bc they are imperfect humans.  What’s your point? I’ve never suggested my kids are perfect innocent sheltered beings or that they’d never lie to me.

This is how I view it very very simply:

 If they are ready to date, they they shouldn’t need mom to help to go on a date.  It’s just that simple to me. Obviously if you feel differently then that’s just fine and dandy. You parent your kids and I’ll parent mine. 

Exactly.not sure why there is so much piling on and snark about such a middle of the road position.  

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I'm saying that you shouldn't set your kids up to lie. And honestly, I really think that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The smuggest person on this thread is the one who first started using the term "pimp", and wildly inappropriately unless you're getting paid.

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52 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I'm saying that you shouldn't set your kids up to lie. And honestly, I really think that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The smuggest person on this thread is the one who first started using the term "pimp", and wildly inappropriately unless you're getting paid.

I’m not setting them up to lie. If they want to date - they can date. If they want to hang out with a group of friends - they can hang out with a group of friends. But I’m not paying for their dating and I’m not helping them go on dates - bc to ME that’d be weird as heck.  It’s not smug for ME to say I would feel like I was pimping them if I helped fund and or take them to go on dates.  I’m allowed to say I’d feel that way about making that choice for myself. Never asked or expected or needed anyone to agree with me or do the same.

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1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Exactly.not sure why there is so much piling on and snark about such a middle of the road position.  

Right?!  Good grief.  Who knew the concept that if someone wants to date they should manage making that date happen on their own would be so controversial?

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19 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I think that when you start by calling other people's parenting "pimping", you shouldn't then accuse them of hurting your feelings.  

Oh whatever. I said how I would feel if I paid for or helped my kids manage dating.  Not once have I said anyone else was pimping or has to feel the same as me. That’s all on you if you presume to take that upon yourself. And my feelings aren’t hurt.  Mildly annoyed at best on my side of this.

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26 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I think that when you start by calling other people's parenting "pimping", you shouldn't then accuse them of hurting your feelings.  

That is not what she did.  She said SHE would feel that way.  People took it on as if she is judging them…..but not sure how we are suppose to convey our feelings about parenting choices without others feeling judged if they are so inclined 

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