Wordsmith vs. Classical Writing vs. Writeshop vs. anything else?

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

I am looking for a writing curriculum starting from basic to HS levels that:

Teaches how to write various sentence structures from mimicking good writing samples (Classical Writing, Killgallon)

How to replace generic words with stronger, more descriptive words (Writeshop, Wordsmith)

How to improve vocabularies in context (Classical Writing, Writeshop)

How to connect sentences in a cohesive way

Is comprehensive & well-structured; no supplement or winging is needed. 

Is written to the child in clear & simple language & format without teacher intensive. 

 

My 9yo is very advanced at spelling & grammar, but he uses generic words. simple sentence structures, and his story plots go in circles. We have MCT, Killgallon, Wordsmith, Evan-moore, and the Usborne Writer Journal/Write Your Own series. What do you think (writeshop, wordsmith, classwriting, something else) is closest to what I am looking for? Thanks.

[Lori D.]

Welcome! I see by your post count you are fairly new here. 😄

Side note about the independent writing program for a 9yo -- from my experience with 2 writing phobic DSs (homeschooled for 12 years), and teaching writing & lit to grades 7-12 students for the last 8 years at our homeschool co-op -- most students, especially in the elementary/middle school grades really need a lot of guidance and mentoring in their writing, so while something like the Write Your Own series is great as a solo supplement to explore creative writing, I would still plan on being very involved with a main writing program. JMO! 😉 

For your 9yo, I would go with Teaching Writing Through Guided Analysis (formerly called Treasured Conversations). See sample pages here. It pretty much does all of your list except for the last item -- it is clear and simple, but is scripted for the parent to do alongside the child. it is not a solo-working program, but everything is there in one place and it is not teacher intensive.


Your description of your 9yo's writing sounds very typical -- nothing to worry about. Creative writing is not at all necessary at any of the ages/stages, so if he enjoys writing stories, at some point along about 6th grade you might just switch to a creative writing program for a year to help him strengthen his creative writing -- otherwise, no need to worry about "circular story plots". 😉 

If that is also how his nonfiction narrations sound, then you might look into doing Writing With Ease level 3 or 4, which works on summaries and narrations -- but, it is not solo-working. It uses the imitation of good writing as one of its teaching techniques, along with summary/narration.
 

Of the other programs you have listed:

Classical Writing -- or perhaps CAP's Writing & Rhetoric, which was not in your post -- might fit a lot of your wish list.

Writeshop goes from elementary to high school (different authors for the primary vs. middle/high school levels), but the main downside that I've heard people on these boards mention is that it is not written to the student and has a lot of components, so it is teacher-intensive. It also does not use imitation of good writing as part of the program.

Wordsmith series is written to the student and solo-working, but also does not use imitation of good writing, and it does not have levels for every grade, so you would just plug it in here and there -- Wordsmith Apprentice (level 1) is for gr. 4-6; Wordsmith (level 2) is for gr. 6-8; Wordsmith Craftsman (level 3) is for gr. 9-12. The first two would work as a fun supplement, or a break from a more formal program every so often. If next year you need writing to be mostly solo working, Then Wordsmith Apprentice could fit the bill for you there, as it does include some fun creative writing and journalistic writing.

Killgallon is usually used by people on these boards as a supplement to plug in here and there to support sentence structure/composition. It would not cover all the aspects of writing that you would want to cover over the years.

BEST of luck in finding what is a fit for you and your student! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

4 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Welcome! I see by your post count you are fairly new here. 😄

Side note about the independent writing program for a 9yo -- from my experience with 2 writing phobic DSs (homeschooled for 12 years), and teaching writing & lit to grades 7-12 students for the last 8 years at our homeschool co-op -- most students, especially in the elementary/middle school grades really need a lot of guidance and mentoring in their writing, so while something like the Write Your Own series is great as a solo supplement to explore creative writing, I would still plan on being very involved with a main writing program. JMO! 😉 

For your 9yo, I would go with Teaching Writing Through Guided Analysis (formerly called Treasured Conversations). See sample pages here. It pretty much does all of your list except for the last item -- it is clear and simple, but is scripted for the parent to do alongside the child. it is not a solo-working program, but everything is there in one place and it is not teacher intensive.


Your description of your 9yo's writing sounds very typical -- nothing to worry about. Creative writing is not at all necessary at any of the ages/stages, so if he enjoys writing stories, at some point along about 6th grade you might just switch to a creative writing program for a year to help him strengthen his creative writing -- otherwise, no need to worry about "circular story plots". 😉 

If that is also how his nonfiction narrations sound, then you might look into doing Writing With Ease level 3 or 4, which works on summaries and narrations -- but, it is not solo-working. It uses the imitation of good writing as one of its teaching techniques, along with summary/narration.
 

Of the other programs you have listed:

Classical Writing -- or perhaps CAP's Writing & Rhetoric, which was not in your post -- might fit a lot of your wish list.

Writeshop goes from elementary to high school (different authors for the primary vs. middle/high school levels), but the main downside that I've heard people on these boards mention is that it is not written to the student and has a lot of components, so it is teacher-intensive. It also does not use imitation of good writing as part of the program.

Wordsmith series is written to the student and solo-working, but also does not use imitation of good writing, and it does not have levels for every grade, so you would just plug it in here and there -- Wordsmith Apprentice (level 1) is for gr. 4-6; Wordsmith (level 2) is for gr. 6-8; Wordsmith Craftsman (level 3) is for gr. 9-12. The first two would work as a fun supplement, or a break from a more formal program every so often. If next year you need writing to be mostly solo working, Then Wordsmith Apprentice could fit the bill for you there, as it does include some fun creative writing and journalistic writing.

Killgallon is usually used by people on these boards as a supplement to plug in here and there to support sentence structure/composition. It would not cover all the aspects of writing that you would want to cover over the years.

BEST of luck in finding what is a fit for you and your student! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Thanks so much @Lori D. for your detail explanation. By basic to HS, I mean the skill level covers from creative writing & narration to note taking & essay writing. My son loves creative writing, so that's all he does right now. I also hope to use his descriptive writing to help with his oral language, which is much weaker. He would say things like "mom can you get me that thing over there please" or "mom look, I put something over something." We hit roadblock with the Evan Moore books when he got to paragraph writing, especially with nonfiction. He's a pattern kid, so he can summarize fiction using SWBST formula. There is no such formula for nonfiction. 

Is Writing & Rhetoric the earlier level of Classical Writing? Will Writeshop work if you pick and choose the components instead? The Teaching Writing Through Guided Analysis looks good, clearer & more structured than Evan Moore. I found Put That In Writing that looks good too. I cannot find the sample pages for Classical Writing Homer anywhere. Out of the core book, the teacher guide, and the student workbook, which book do you think is a must-have? 

[PeterPan]

11 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

 He would say things like "mom can you get me that thing over there please" or "mom look, I put something over something."

This is called word retrieval.

20 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

his story plots go in circles.

This can be Executive Function.

11 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

There is no such formula for nonfiction. 

https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  Charts on the development of narrative language and how narrative language structures lead directly to expository. 

11 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I also hope to use his descriptive writing to help with his oral language, which is much weaker.

For the real life examples where he's using nonspecific words orally, actually stop and get him to name the objects. CAN he name the objects? Was it hard to retrieve the names? Was it hard to retrieve the name *and* hold his thoughts? Sometimes with ADHD (which is usually what causes the EF issues) you get those low processing speed and low working memory that make it hard to hold their thoughts and get everything out.  

If it is ADHD and working memory issues, you'd like to know because you can actually improve working memory a bit. You can also use some visual supports, like writing out the key words together before he goes to write, so he has a visual support and doesn't have to do so much processing and word retrieval. You'll notice many of he popular curricula (IEW for instance) use key word outlining heavily. I happen to really like Writing Tales.

20 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Teaches how to write various sentence structures from mimicking good writing samples (Classical Writing, Killgallon)

How to replace generic words with stronger, more descriptive words (Writeshop, Wordsmith)

How to improve vocabularies in context (Classical Writing, Writeshop)

How to connect sentences in a cohesive way

Is comprehensive & well-structured; no supplement or winging is needed. 

IEW

20 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Is written to the child in clear & simple language & format without teacher intensive. 

Not realistic, not for what you're wanting. You could hire a tutor.

20 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Evan-moor

Did you try something like the 6 Traits Daily Writing? My ds has SLD writing (dysgraphia) and has done very well with it. The intervention specialist who supervises his IEP likes it a lot to, got it to use with her own kids. If he can't do that, I'm kinda wondering what more is going on.

When we eval'ed my dd at 12 (kinda similar, super bright, strong at some things, some things off) she had ADHD and significant word retrieval issues. We did writing curricula (Writing Tales, CW, Wordsmith Apprentice, etc.) but we also did a lot of narrations (fiction and nonfiction) and outlining good models. Starting around the age of your dc we used Muse magazine to outline articles to let her see how good writers formulated arguments. I got her Inspiration software to use with her writing projects. We did WWS but later, more like 7th, 8th, 9th. She did a National History Day project one year. 

Sometimes a big project with engagement is more meaningful than lots of little ones.

Edited July 24, 2021 by PeterPan

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Did you try something like the 6 Traits Daily Writing?

We did. He can do it, but it doesn’t teach him where I want. We too do Wordly Wise and he can comprehend those words when he comes across them in reading, but is unable to retrieve them for writing. We also use the Sentence book & the Paragraph book. Most curriculums only teach what single sentences/compound sentences/complex sentences look like. Few teach sentence structures when you want to put the emphasis (various types of clauses, phrases) at the beginning/middle/end of the sentence, from actual good writing. Maybe Writeshop does? I can’t remember. For paragraph writing, I have Mindwing & Inspiration for outlining, but he fought against it. He dislikes planning. Maybe I’ll try to bring them out again this year. Writing curriculum with instruction like “start with a topic sentence followed by detail sentences” just doesn’t mean anything to him. He can’t identify the topic nor important details in a paragraph. 

 

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

CAN he name the objects? Was it hard to retrieve the names? Was it hard to retrieve the name *and* hold his thoughts? Sometimes with ADHD (which is usually what causes the EF issues) you get those low processing speed and low working memory that make it hard to hold their thoughts and get everything out.  

If it is ADHD and working memory issues, you'd like to know because you can actually improve working memory a bit.

Yes he has a hard time retrieving the words and holding his thought. How can you improve working memory? I don’t even know how he is not able to hold words & thought, but has no problem doing multi-digit multiplication and division math in his head.

[Lori D.]

15 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

...By basic to HS, I mean the skill level covers from creative writing & narration to note taking & essay writing. My son loves creative writing, so that's all he does right now...

Most writing programs do not cover creative writing. Which is a good thing IMO, because creative writing is a unique type of writing that needs special focus/tips/instruction that most authors of standard writing programs don't know how to include. So to encourage your DS's love of creative writing (short stories, novels, or poetry writing) -- or journalism -- you would really want to use a program specifically geared for that type of writing. It is fine to do that simultaneous with a standard writing program by doing a few units out of one program, then switching to the other for a few units.

Adventures in Fantasy Writing (gr. 5-9)
Cover Story (gr. 6-8)
The Creative Writer series (gr. 6-9) - levels 1-4

Brave Writer online classes: 
Playing with Poetry -- ages 9/10+
Spinning a Folktale -- ages 9/10+
Telling Tales -- ages 9/10+
Writing a Greek Myth -- ages 9/10+
Passion for Fiction -- ages 11+
Writing the Short Story -- ages 11+
Fan Fiction -- ages 13+
Powerful Fiction Techniques -- ages 13+

books/resources:
Writing Magic: Creating Stories that Fly (Levine)
NaNoWriMo Young Writers Program (National Novel Writing Month) materials

blog articles/tips/resources:
Small World blog: Teaching Creative Writing -- tips for homeschool parent
Small World blog: Ultimate Guide to Creative Writing -- big list of links for all types of resources for all ages
Walking By the Way: Creative Writing -- 9 free lessons
The English Teacher -- units for teaching facets of creative writing
The Five Facts of Fiction -- free tips

15 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

...We hit roadblock with the Evan Moore books when he got to paragraph writing, especially with nonfiction. He's a pattern kid, so he can summarize fiction using SWBST formula. There is no such formula for nonfiction. ..

Some kids just don't click with paragraph writing until middle school, as writing skills mature as different ages for different students. The Teaching Writing Through Guided Analysis (formerly called Treasured Conversations) starts with sentences and guides students into paragraph writing.

Or, as @PeterPan suggested above, you might look at Andrew Pudewa's IEW for teaching the key-word outline pattern from a piece of nonfiction writing, which then has you rewrite the key word outline in your own words, and then revising and adding "dress-ups" (vivid words). Pudewa also suggests breaking the writing process into a small "bite" of the writing process per day:

day 1 = brainstorm / decide on what bits of information to use in your paragraph from the piece of writing you're working from
day 2 = make a key word outline
day 3 = write a complete sentence for each key word/phrase of the paragraph outline
day 4 = revise (big fixes), add "dress-ups"
day 5 = proof-edit (little fixes), make final clean copy
 

Basic nonfiction paragraph formula:
T = Topic Sentence (overview/big picture of the subject of the paragraph)
Sx3 = 3 Support Sentences (3 facts, examples, statistics/data, or anecdotal supports to flesh out the subject in the topic sentence)
C = Concluding Sentence (overview/big picture summing up of the subject in light of the paragraph body)

More detailed nonfiction paragraph formula:
T = Topic Sentence (overview/big picture of the subject of the paragraph)
Sx3 = 3 Support Sentences (3 facts, examples, statistics/data, or anecdotal supports to flesh out the subject in the topic sentence)
D = Detail Sentences (as needed -- sentence(s) of detail to flesh out one or more of the support sentences)
C = Concluding Sentence (overview/big picture summing up of the subject in light of the paragraph body)

 

 

15 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

...Is Writing & Rhetoric the earlier level of Classical Writing? Will Writeshop work if you pick and choose the components instead? ... I cannot find the sample pages for Classical Writing Homer anywhere. Out of the core book, the teacher guide, and the student workbook, which book do you think is a must-have? 

No, I believe W&R is a completely separate program from Classical Writing. Alas, sorry, no personal experience with any of these programs to know about what components to get or skip.
 

15 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

...I found Put That In Writing that looks good too...

Put That in Writing I & II are late middle school/high school level programs. I really disliked like the level 1 that we tried to use. A lot of typos (that's a killer in a Writing program for me), dull, too much grammar drill of sentence types, the examples of "good writing" were very dry, and the writing assignments were boring. I had to do some heavy adapting and we ended up only using excerpts -- pretty much just reading the explanation of the type of essay, skipping the unneeded grammar exercises, and then coming up with our own assignments. Very expensive for that handful of essay explanations. 😵

However, I know a few others on these boards were fine with PTiW when they used it when it first came out about 15 years ago. There are so many other writing programs out there now, that PTiW is not often mentioned any more. A lot of people are also outsourcing, and I am hearing good things about Lantern English's writing courses.
 

15 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

...We hit roadblock with the Evan Moore books when he got to paragraph writing, especially with nonfiction...

Possibly check out these resources for tips/techniques to help with paragraph writing:
Four-Square Writing Method (gr. 4-6)
Super Sentences and Perfect Paragraphs (gr. 3-6)
Writing Fabulous Sentences and Paragraphs (gr. 4-6)
Paragraph Writing (gr. 4-6)
Paragraph Writing Made Easy (gr. 4-8)


BEST of luck in your writing adventures! 😄 Warmly, Lori D.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

...For paragraph writing, I have Mindwing & Inspiration for outlining, but he fought against it. He dislikes planning. Maybe I’ll try to bring them out again this year. Writing curriculum with instruction like “start with a topic sentence followed by detail sentences” just doesn’t mean anything to him. He can’t identify the topic nor important details in a paragraph...

Some of the students in my co-op classes can only figure out what to write about... by actually writing. 

I found with my own DSs were at that age, that sitting with them during brainstorming and *I* wrote things down on the whiteboard and asked leading questions helped a lot. Then I could help them narrow down their main points to focus on for their writing...

[SilverMoon]

On 7/23/2021 at 8:47 PM, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I cannot find the sample pages for Classical Writing Homer anywhere. Out of the core book, the teacher guide, and the student workbook, which book do you think is a must-have? 

Just addressing this part; I couldn't do better than others have with the rest. 

My oldest graduates used CW. You really do need all three texts. The core came first and taught how to teach the program. Then the workbooks were created later to make it much more user friendly, and the TMs are only what you need to use the workbooks and it links you back to the core regularly. It's not independent nor written so the child can run it. 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by SilverMoon

[PeterPan]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:45 PM, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

He can’t identify the topic nor important details in a paragraph. 

Fwiw, that can be a mild issue or pretty significant. 

https://www.christianbook.com/spotlight-on-reading-summarizing-grade-3/9781609964962/pd/964962?event=ESRCG  The Spotlight on Reading series from Carson Dellosa is terrific and might do what you need. Also IEW will address it with their key word outlines.

 

On 7/24/2021 at 1:45 PM, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Yes he has a hard time retrieving the words and holding his thought. How can you improve working memory? I don’t even know how he is not able to hold words & thought, but has no problem doing multi-digit multiplication and division math in his head.

It sounds like you should get some evals and see what you're dealing with. You could have anything from run of the mill ADHD (which will probably respond well to a structured program like IEW) to more significant language issues and autism. I'm just saying at this point some evals would be in order. If the question is language, you would look for an SLP (speech language pathologist) who specializes in expressive language. You can also get complete evals (psych, speech, everything) for free through the public schools.

How does he do with talking about his day? 

[CAtoVA]

IEW (Institute for Excellence in Writing) would fit pretty much everything you are asking about.

 

I started with IEW with my older kids about age 9-10, and, even though we have branched out since then, certain things have stuck until today! I will be starting with another kid next year.  Sentence structure, sentence fluency, and sophisticated word choices are still going strong and can be traced directly back to IEW (and my teaching, too : p ). Overall, IEW is an excellent choice for beginner (and other) writers.

Edited July 26, 2021 by CAtoVA

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

Thanks everyone. After reading through all the online samples from CW, CC, W&R, WWS, IEW, I decided to go with CW. It's just more hand-holding (yet not too heavily scripted) instead of just saying to "identify the topic sentence" or "write an outline/summary" without any instructions on how to. All my DS's exercises from the Carson Dellosa, Evan Moore, or graphic organizers just didn't transfer to the oral narration and writing. 

SilverMoon is right. I need the core (that has the skill lessons,) student workbook (that has the daily instruction planning for each week,) and the teacher guide (that has the answer keys to the workbook exercises.) 

Btw I also found out about LTOW. Anybody used it? Is the teacher guide or student workbook more essential, or do you need both? Do you need to find your own samples/models for the lessons? TIA. 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by OnceUponAFullMoon

[Green Bean]

What is LTOW?

My older 2 are making great strides using IEW SSS levels. They are actually writing full papers now instead of basic paragraphs.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Green Bean

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

3 hours ago, Green Bean said:

What is LTOW?

Lost Tools of Writing.