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The “vaccination divide” in the US


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3 minutes ago, Plum said:

The vaccine divide is a symptom of a much deeper divide that's not necessarily political, but value-based. 

Thanks for explaining that. Do you think it’s possible when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail? Like, perhaps a bunch of those things are all legitimate issues, but maybe they don’t actually have anything to do with the virus and vaccine issue? It kind of seems to me like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Like, to not get vaccinated and to instead let this pandemic just drag on and on and get worse and have thousands upon thousands more people die that don’t have to… I just don’t see how that had to follow and is the greater good even if all of those other things are problems. Not everything has to fit within the schema of existing political issues. This is a serious illness that has killed  over 625,000 Americans in less than 18 months. At what point is it legitimate to do what we need to do to end this thing? To what degree is it moral to not do those things in order to make a political point?

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7 hours ago, ktgrok said:

ugh, until someone said it, I hadn't thought about how ick it is that someone won't take the risk of the vaccine to support the public health, but will take the risk of the vaccine in order to go on a cruise. That's...disheartening. I've heard a few people give cruises as a reason to vaccinate, and now I'm going to think of it that way. Ugh. 

Makes sense if the people had Covid already though.  My friend who had Covid antibodies decided to get vaxed so she could travel.  Given that people who've had Covid tend to have worse vax reactions, I think it stinks that she had to vax in order to travel despite having antibodies.

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5 hours ago, Plum said:

Good to see it’s not just me.
Matt Taibbi’s email today: 

The Vaccine Aristocrats

Covid-19 cases are rising, but the "Pandemic of the Unvaccinated" blame-game campaign is the worst way to address the problem

Then there was the educated Texan from Texas who looked like someone in Technicolor and felt, patriotically, that people of means – decent folk – should be given more votes than drifters, whores, criminals, degenerates, atheists and indecent folk – people without means. 

— Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

I’m vaccinated. I think people should be vaccinated. But this latest moral mania — and make no mistake about it, the “pandemic of the unvaccinated” PR campaign is the latest in a ceaseless series of such manias, dating back to late 2016 — lays bare everything that’s abhorrent and nonsensical in modern American politics, beginning with the no-longer-disguised aristocratic mien of the Washington consensus. If you want to convince people to get a vaccine, pretty much the worst way to go about it is a massive blame campaign, delivered by sneering bluenoses who have a richly deserved credibility problem with large chunks of the population, and now insist they’re owed financially besides.

Yeah, the grossest facebook post I saw about the vax was the friend who bragged about getting her "fauci ouchie," and then lamented how sad it was that not everyone cared enough to do the same.  She wasn't even an early taker.  She is also a person who doesn't vax her kids.  But whatever.  The blinding virtue.  If her post influenced anyone, it wasn't in a positive direction.

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3 hours ago, Plum said:

I want it all to end too. I believe it's equally important that we all like each other when it's over. We are already polarized enough. 

All unvaccinated are getting lumped together whether previous posters want to admit it or not. People who have legit reasons to not yet get vaccinated and still take precautions will be treated the same as the ones who don't. If it's "unvaccinated are not welcome here", that goes for both groups. If they didn't come up with a system to prove medical waivers for masks, they aren't going to start with vaccinations. It only gets uglier from here. 

Yeah, I feel like boycotting any place that discriminates against the unvaccinated.  (Since I hardly go anywhere anyway, I haven't had the opportunity to boycott....)

And yes, I see a lot of sentiment here that promotes such discrimination.

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3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah, I feel like boycotting any place that discriminates against the unvaccinated.  (Since I hardly go anywhere anyway, I haven't had the opportunity to boycott....)

And yes, I see a lot of sentiment here that promotes such discrimination.

This isn't ebola, obviously, but I'm wondering if this perspective would be the same for you if we had a massive ebola outbreak. Would it seem understandable in that circumstance to have public health mandates to protect the public from uncontrolled spread of ebola?

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14 minutes ago, KSera said:

Thanks for explaining that. Do you think it’s possible when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail? Like, perhaps a bunch of those things are all legitimate issues, but maybe they don’t actually have anything to do with the virus and vaccine issue? It kind of seems to me like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Like, to not get vaccinated and to instead let this pandemic just drag on and on and get worse and have thousands upon thousands more people die that don’t have to… I just don’t see how that had to follow and is the greater good even if all of those other things are problems. Not everything has to fit within the schema of existing political issues. This is a serious illness that has killed  over 625,000 Americans in less than 18 months. At what point is it legitimate to do what we need to do to end this thing? To what degree is it moral to not do those things in order to make a political point?

I don't know. This is only what I'm thinking and observing. I don't speak for anyone. It's frustrating. 

It's why I think finding common ground and appealing to them in ways that makes sense to them is a much better way to get through to them. So much c**p has accumulated, it's nearly impossible to get down to the root of it all. We need to be able to find a way to talk about all of this civilly but that takes time, effort and empathy. Instead we're driving a wedge further between us so that even when we do get out of this, we'll never be the same. 

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2 hours ago, Plum said:

Thanks @whitestavernfor posting that about bluenose. I had to wait until I got to my keyboard to type this. 

 

Sigh. No talking points. Just thinking out loud after careful observation. 

Sorry. I didn't want to copy the whole thing since it is a subscription. He actually brings up welfare reform from the Clinton era that resulted in home cohabitation checks

Where am I going with all of this? On a massive scale, we're seeing the idea floated that if you want x you have to jump through hoops or you will be humiliated, shamed and blamed. I've seen suggestions like if you don't get vaccinated, your health insurance shouldn't pay for your treatment. If you don't get vaccinated, you should not be able to work or go to school or do anything in public. And much much worse. This isn't a new idea and both sides have their own versions of this for their own political pet peeves. 

To randomly quote Joe Strummer from The Clash's song Know Your Rights

And number two
You have the right to food money
Providing of course
You don't mind a little
Investigation, humiliation
And if you cross your fingers
Rehabilitation

It's not just about vaccinations. That's probably where the disconnect is. For me, it's about the current trajectory of controlling behavior, controlling speech, controlling thought. Weren't they just talking about getting into people's phones to correct misinformation in texts? Any other day that's an insane thought and no one would have approved of that idea during Trump. 

At what point do we start the education camps? You sir have shared too much misinformation. You ma'am refused to say someone's preferred pronouns. You have not done your anti-racist training. There is no finish line where we can say "mission accomplished." It's been awhile since I read it, but isn't that how the always watching Big Brother ended up in their living rooms in 1984? 

I find all of this extremely concerning. There is a natural tension between public health and civil liberties. We should be discussing that openly. Public Health has one job, to keep people alive even at the expense of civil liberties. It's up to the people to reign them in. How much of our civil liberties are we willing to give up for public health? That line will be different for everyone. It's up to politicians to reassure us that they will be restored at the end of this pandemic, which they are failing at spectacularly. 

The vaccine divide is a symptom of a much deeper divide that's not necessarily political, but value-based. 

Thank you for explaining it more. I’m also glad that you acknowledged that both sides do this, just the issues might be different (eg drug testing for benefits, banning CRT, etc). Attempting to control behavior through legislation is certainly nothing new for either side.

The whole social media and extreme media misinformation thing is very concerning to me and I don’t see anyway we will ever solve it because it works so very, very well and some people benefit significantly from it through either power and/or money.

I certainly don’t want to see anything like correcting texts in phones (and hadn’t heard anything about it) or re-education camps (can’t imagine it here), but having so many elected leaders perpetuating lies about things like a stolen election is an absolute direct threat to our democracy, just as much as attempting to restrict free speech. So I don’t see it at all as a problem from only one side.
 

Eroding our democratic norms and institutions and constantly attacking our free press as was done relentlessly during the last administration also threatens the very core of our country. And now people are dying due to misinformation about covid and the vaccines and many leaders are joining in spreading it because it plays to their base. Where does it end? An attack on our Capitol certainly didn’t seem to be a much needed wake up call about the dangers of perpetuating lies, misinformation, and conspiracy theories. Those brave R leaders who spoke the truth were very quickly put in their place. Untold covid deaths due to the same doesn’t seems to make a difference. So what is the solution when so few leaders are willing to speak the truth because they might lose votes?

Edited by Frances
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20 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah, I feel like boycotting any place that discriminates against the unvaccinated.  (Since I hardly go anywhere anyway, I haven't had the opportunity to boycott....)

And yes, I see a lot of sentiment here that promotes such discrimination.

I’m guessing though that many who think it is fine to discriminate based on say sexual orientation (so who someone is) are some of the same people who don’t want vaccine (an action) mandates for entry to certain places or jobs. I’m not saying this is true for you, just that as Plum acknowledged, both sides try to control behavior through legislation.

I’m curious if your opposed to the unvaccinated being charged higher insurance premiums (of course not applying to those who can’t vaccinate for medical reasons) are you also opposed to insurance companies charging higher premiums for smokers or giving premium breaks to those who take certain health actions like getting physicals, dental cleanings, etc.?

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22 minutes ago, Plum said:

I don't know. This is only what I'm thinking and observing. I don't speak for anyone. It's frustrating. 

It's why I think finding common ground and appealing to them in ways that makes sense to them is a much better way to get through to them. So much c**p has accumulated, it's nearly impossible to get down to the root of it all. We need to be able to find a way to talk about all of this civilly but that takes time, effort and empathy. Instead we're driving a wedge further between us so that even when we do get out of this, we'll never be the same. 

I do think healthcare and public health officials are doing this at the local level and trying to involve religious and elected leaders which is where it will have the most impact. It’s amazing to me the extreme backlash so many public health officials have dealt with, yet so many of them just keeping trying and trying to reach out in an empathetic and supportive way. Of course others have been fired or burnt out, but so many have given so much. We can’t forget them either. And of course not the healthcare workers who have been through so much.

Edited by Frances
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7 minutes ago, Plum said:

So unless I’m missing something, the government is not involved and no one is going into phones and correcting texts with misinformation, as they can’t even read private, individual texts,  but rather somehow  alerting that misinformation is being spread, although the plan is still vague? I’m not saying I agree with it, but I got a very different impression from your initial post.

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50 minutes ago, Plum said:

I don't know. This is only what I'm thinking and observing. I don't speak for anyone. It's frustrating. 

It's why I think finding common ground and appealing to them in ways that makes sense to them is a much better way to get through to them. So much c**p has accumulated, it's nearly impossible to get down to the root of it all. We need to be able to find a way to talk about all of this civilly but that takes time, effort and empathy. Instead we're driving a wedge further between us so that even when we do get out of this, we'll never be the same. 

I already don’t think we will ever be the same. I really don’t think there is any going back from so many leaders being willing to perpetuate the lie of a stolen election and so many people believing it. That is a direct assault on our democracy from which I’m not sure we will ever recover. If our leaders are willing to do that in the name of power, what else even more extreme are they willing to do? And of course the pandemic has just made everything worse. I think we are hanging on by a thread at this point.

Edited by Frances
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40 minutes ago, Plum said:

Instead we're driving a wedge further between us so that even when we do get out of this, we'll never be the same. 

We are already not going to be the same.

This pandemic has already killed over 600,000 in the US in a little over a year and many more will die. There's a mental and emotional toll for that from an individual level up to a nationwide level (not to mention global impact).

Then there are the survivors with long-haul symptoms. Will there still be imacts from that a year from now? A decade from now? A generation from now? If so, what? What type of care or treatments will be needed? How will those be provided? What will quality of life be for those folks? For their families?

We have a medical system that has been working in crisis mode for over a year. How long can that continue until that system starts cracking?

Then there are educational impacts. Economic impacts. And so many more.

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1 minute ago, Frances said:

So unless I’m missing something, the government is not involved and no one is going into phones and correcting texts with misinformation, as they can’t even read private, individual texts,  but rather somehow  alerting that misinformation is being spread, although the plan is still vague? I’m not saying I agree with it, but I got a very different impression from your initial post.

That's why it was in question form in the op. I remembered reading the original article and didn't know what the status was. I knew something like that was floated.

This was in Politco so you can see where this comes from. 

Quote

Biden allied groups, including the Democratic National Committee, are also planning to engage fact-checkers more aggressively and work with SMS carriers to dispel misinformation about vaccines that is sent over social media and text messages. 

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/12/biden-covid-vaccination-campaign-499278

It's 2 hours past when I usually go to bed. 

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1 hour ago, Plum said:

Thanks @whitestavernfor posting that about bluenose. I had to wait until I got to my keyboard to type this. 

 

Sigh. No talking points. Just thinking out loud after careful observation. 

Sorry. I didn't want to copy the whole thing since it is a subscription. He actually brings up welfare reform from the Clinton era that resulted in home cohabitation checks

Where am I going with all of this? On a massive scale, we're seeing the idea floated that if you want x you have to jump through hoops or you will be humiliated, shamed and blamed. I've seen suggestions like if you don't get vaccinated, your health insurance shouldn't pay for your treatment. If you don't get vaccinated, you should not be able to work or go to school or do anything in public. And much much worse. This isn't a new idea and both sides have their own versions of this for their own political pet peeves. 

To randomly quote Joe Strummer from The Clash's song Know Your Rights

And number two
You have the right to food money
Providing of course
You don't mind a little
Investigation, humiliation
And if you cross your fingers
Rehabilitation

It's not just about vaccinations. That's probably where the disconnect is. For me, it's about the current trajectory of controlling behavior, controlling speech, controlling thought. Weren't they just talking about getting into people's phones to correct misinformation in texts? Any other day that's an insane thought and no one would have approved of that idea during Trump. 

At what point do we start the education camps? You sir have shared too much misinformation. You ma'am refused to say someone's preferred pronouns. You have not done your anti-racist training. There is no finish line where we can say "mission accomplished." It's been awhile since I read it, but isn't that how the always watching Big Brother ended up in their living rooms in 1984? 

I find all of this extremely concerning. There is a natural tension between public health and civil liberties. We should be discussing that openly. Public Health has one job, to keep people alive even at the expense of civil liberties. It's up to the people to reign them in. How much of our civil liberties are we willing to give up for public health? That line will be different for everyone. It's up to politicians to reassure us that they will be restored at the end of this pandemic, which they are failing at spectacularly. 

The vaccine divide is a symptom of a much deeper divide that's not necessarily political, but value-based. 

The Republicans have historically had a lot more hoops for people to go through for any kind of welfare help.  Democrats seem to be vilified for not having those hoops.  Your post seems to be the opposite? 

As far as insurance goes, traditionally insurance does not pay 100% of bills for illnesses.  The fact that they have for Covid has been a gift from them in the time of a historical pandemic.  I have alerted people to the fact that that is starting to change back to a normal 80/20 or whatever insurance coverage you have, split.  The fact that I think that is reasonable doesn't mean that I am supporting any political agenda.  The idea that our behavior has consequences was also a historically conservative value.  If you don't vaccinate, there is a really good chance that you will have the consequence of moderate to severe illness (and as noted elsewhere, even mild Covid by medical standards can be fairly difficult to navigate).  I don't wish that on anyone but I think that noting that that is reality is actually part of wisdom. 

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3 minutes ago, Stacia said:

We are already not going to be the same.

This pandemic has already killed over 600,000 in the US in a little over a year and many more will die. There's a mental and emotional toll for that from an individual level up to a nationwide level (not to mention global impact).

Then there are the survivors with long-haul symptoms. Will there still be impacts from that a year from now? A decade from now? A generation from now? If so, what? What type of care or treatments will be needed? How will those be provided? What will quality of life be for those folks? For their families?

We have a medical system that has been working in crisis mode for over a year. How long can that continue until that system starts cracking?

Then there are educational impacts. Economic impacts. And so many more.

Oh I know all about that. Dh is on disability after covid and the vaccine. He probably won't be able to go back to work at his hospital. It's been a long year for us. No, we won't ever be the same. 

Some of the changes are for the good though too. Manufacturing is returning closer to home. More parents are homeschooling. Curbside pickup. 

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5 minutes ago, Plum said:

Some of the changes are for the good though too. Manufacturing is returning closer to home. More parents are homeschooling. Curbside pickup. 

?

Doesn't seem like a trade-off when considering how many are dead (and a pretty horrible way to go) or those who have short- or long-term issues as a complication.

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1 minute ago, Stacia said:

?

Doesn't seem like a trade-off when considering how many are dead (and a pretty horrible way to go) or those who have short- or long-term issues as a complication.

And it seemed like an amazing missed opportunity to bring us together to fight a common foe after years of divisiveness.

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4 hours ago, Frances said:

I already don’t think we will ever be the same. I really don’t think there is any going back from so many leaders being willing to perpetuate the lie of a stolen election and so many people believing it. That is a direct assault on our democracy from which I’m not sure we will ever recover. If our leaders are willing to do that in the name of power, what else even more extreme are they willing to do? And of course the pandemic has just made everything worse. I think we are hanging on by a thread at this point.

Not to mention minimum wage workers being shot for asking people to wear a mask when the law requires it, the unwillingness to do the bare minimum to protect others.  

The past year has exposed weaknesses and hypocrisy in our institutions (churches, government, many others) to an extent I don't think we've seen before.  

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5 hours ago, Stacia said:

?

Doesn't seem like a trade-off when considering how many are dead (and a pretty horrible way to go) or those who have short- or long-term issues as a complication.

? Sure that’s what I’m saying, I’d trade curbside pickup for the dead and disabled. 😒

I agree this pandemic has exposed our weaknesses. We can become stronger or weaker as a result. 
 

I don’t have the time or energy for this. 

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8 hours ago, SKL said:

Makes sense if the people had Covid already though.  My friend who had Covid antibodies decided to get vaxed so she could travel.  Given that people who've had Covid tend to have worse vax reactions, I think it stinks that she had to vax in order to travel despite having antibodies.

The ones I've known to say it have not had covid. And I've said many times that proof of antibodies within a certain time span should be as acceptable as proof of vaccination. 

8 hours ago, SKL said:

Yeah, I feel like boycotting any place that discriminates against the unvaccinated.  (Since I hardly go anywhere anyway, I haven't had the opportunity to boycott....)

And yes, I see a lot of sentiment here that promotes such discrimination.

You can come to Florida, where is is now illegal to require vaccination. Mind you, our hospitals are filling up, people are dying, etc...but hey! FREEDOM!!!!!! 

But that's only if you mean covid vaccines....our schools certainly require OTHER vaccines - just got an email reminding me that all 7th graders need a Tdap booster in fact. Mind you my kids are not in public school and I don't have a 7th grader anyway, but they are making a big push about this for th public good. Also sending emails that masks are optional, cause freedom. Not sure why freedom doesn't apply to Tdap vaccine, or why masks don't apply to public good....so yeah. 

Edited by ktgrok
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Biden will be mandating the vaccine for federal employees on Thurs.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/27/politics/vaccine-mandate-for-federal-employees-under-consideration/index.html

President Joe Biden will announce on Thursday a requirement that all federal employees and contractors be vaccinated against Covid-19, or be required to submit to regular testing and mitigation requirements, according to a source with direct knowledge of the matter.

But these folks won't have any mandates placed on them. 

https://www.fr24news.com/a/2021/07/texas-police-hear-covid-positive-illegal-immigrants-sent-to-local-hotels-after-meeting-with-whataburger.html

The migrants told the officer they were staying at the nearby Texas Inn & Suites. The hotel manager told authorities that Catholic Charities in the Rio Grande Valley have booked rooms in the hotel to accommodate undocumented immigrants held by the border patrol.

“We have an agreement based on what we have been told that the entire hotel has already been rented,” Casas said. “The information we have is that everyone who stays at this hotel is positive for COVID-19 because it is praised for them. “

The Texas Inn & Suites in La Joya, Texas. Texan authorities said on Tuesday that undocumented migrants who could be infected with COVID-19 were staying in hotels after being released by border patrol.
(Google Maps)

At the hotel, officers observed 20 to 30 people outside wearing no masks, the police department said in a social media post. Wearing masks is not mandatory, but those showing symptoms of COVID-19 should wear one, Casas said.

He said the department could not prevent any of the migrants from leaving the hotel and heading to another destination in the United States.

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In my opinion I think a large part of the problem is that we don’t value unbiased truth anymore. There used to be a tradition of the press bravely exposing the truth, even in difficult or dangerous circumstances. I know there have always been exceptions to this, but actually seeking the unvarnished truth was part of the expectations of investigative journalists. Now it seems all about agenda on both sides of the political spectrum - even in the press. It’s all about what spin you can put on the information or facts.  We look to our politicians for leadership but almost without exception they aren’t interested in leading but rather spend their time watching the polls and adjusting to what their supporters want. We have that going on in my state. 
My biggest disappointment is how many people have chosen not to act in the best interests of others, but rather in the best interests of themselves only.

I don’t think mandates should be necessary, because if we value our community we should be choosing those actions that help our community. I realize that there is a balance, but I’m talking about the things that are not too difficult to do, even though inconvenient. But I guess self denial and delayed gratification are not commonly practiced and are not so valued. 
These are simple, fairly uncomplicated things to be concerned about I guess. I’m sure there are also the more complex things at play, as mentioned in the posts above, but, for me, the sting is in people I know’s unwillingness to do those simple things.

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40 minutes ago, Fritz said:

 “The information we have is that everyone who stays at this hotel is positive for COVID-19 because it is praised for them. “

Huh? I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean.

EtA: and I don't see what this has to do with the topic. Of course every effort should be made to get migrants vaccinated as well.

Edited by regentrude
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3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Huh? I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean.

Me either. And given that some incredibly disgusting sites have been linked to recently as sources I'm hesitant to click on one that I don't recognize.

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9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Huh? I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean.

I assume he means they have been praised for housing the covid positive immigrants. 

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/07/28/la-joya-covid-migrants-whataburger/

HIDALGO COUNTY, Texas (CBSDFW.COM) – The La Joya Police Department issued a public health announcement after an officer approached an undocumented migrant family at Whataburger who told him Border Patrol released them because they had COVID-19.

On July 26 the police department of the small town along the Rio Grande and Mexican border shared details of the incident. They said a concerned citizen at the restaurant waved down the officer. The citizen told him about the family “coughing and sneezing without covering their mouths and not wearing face masks.”
Whataburger management also told the officer that they wanted the group to leave as well due to “their disregard to other people’s health.”

In addition to telling the officer that Border Patrol had released them days prior due to their coronavirus status, the family said a charity group had paid for their room at the nearby Texas Inn Hotel. The officer followed up on that information, finding out that Catholic Charities of The Rio Grande Valley had booked all the rooms in the hotel to house undocumented immigrants detained by Border Patrol. He saw a group of 20 to 30 people staying at the hotel who were “out and about.” Most of them weren’t wearing masks, according to the officer.

Police said they learned that Border Patrol was quarantining other undocumented individuals who were COVID positive, or showed symptoms of illness, then handing them over to the non-profit. Catholic Charities would in turn place the undocumented individuals in hotels in the McAllen area as well as La Joya.

The police department said it contacted Hidalgo County Health and Human Services for help and was told that the agency would look into the matter. Their announcement further touched on the current border situation, saying, that the La Joya Police Department has assisted Border Patrol in catching hundreds of people crossing through their jurisdiction. And, according to the announcement, Border Patrol informed the police department that on July 25, 2021 they had surpassed 1 million apprehensions in the month of June.

La Joya also said that Catholic Charities of the Rio Grande Valley didn’t tell them that they were placing COVID stricken people at the Texas Inn Hotel.

In response, Hidalgo County Judge Richard Cortez called on federal immigration officials to stop releasing infected migrants into their communities.

 

“We have been doing well as a community in slowing the spread of this deadly virus. But ill-conceived policies by both the federal and state governments are beginning to have serious consequences for Hidalgo County,” said Judge Cortez. “I call on federal immigration officials to stop releasing infected migrants into our community and am further calling on Governor Abbott to return to Hidalgo County the safety tools he took away that would help us slow the spread of this disease. This is unacceptable.”

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ok, I'm not sure that the hotel is for Covid positive, since it said the border patrol was quarantining people and then releasing them. 

But yeah, when I say I want everyone to get vaccinated, I'm including immigrants. 

I have not seen a "don't vaccinate undocumented immigants" sign or rally, nor an exception for them when talking about everyone should get vaccinated. 

Also, y'all, stop eating indoors!!! 

And if you want people who are sick to mask, you have to have mask mandates!

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53 minutes ago, Fritz said:

“We have been doing well as a community in slowing the spread of this deadly virus. But ill-conceived policies by both the federal and state governments are beginning to have serious consequences for Hidalgo County,” said Judge Cortez. “I call on federal immigration officials to stop releasing infected migrants into our community and am further calling on Governor Abbott to return to Hidalgo County the safety tools he took away that would help us slow the spread of this disease. This is unacceptable.”

I’d be frustrated too. Especially because TX has their own way of doing things which doesn’t usually jive with CDC guidelines. It’s really hard to see whether or not those types of guidelines work when they are being undermined. 

On a side note it’s especially frustrating that people can flood in here unhindered at the the border but Afghani translators that put their life and their family’s life on the line to support our troops were being left behind and beheaded by the Taliban. That seems like the perfect time to break the rules and sort it out later. 

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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Also, y'all, stop eating indoors!!! 

And if you want people who are sick to mask, you have to have mask mandates!

Seriously, so Texas wants freedom to not mask, not be careful when sick, not quarantine, not get vaccinated except for it can be used as another point against  "those people"?

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9 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

Seriously, so Texas wants freedom to not mask, not be careful when sick, not quarantine, not get vaccinated except for it can be used as another point against  "those people"?

Hopefully your state will do a better job when they are transported unvaccinated to your town.

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Just now, Fritz said:

Hopefully your state will do a better job when they are transported unvaccinated to your town.

The number of unvaccinated immigrants released into communities is infinitesimal compared to the millions of unvaccinated US citizens who are driving the current spike, but you're focused on a tiny number of poor, sick, brown people? Why is that?

 

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1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

The number of unvaccinated immigrants released into communities is infinitesimal compared to the millions of unvaccinated US citizens who are driving the current spike, but you're focused on a tiny number of poor, sick, brown people? Why is that?

 

My post regarding this was pointing out Biden's mandate for ALL federal employees to be vaccinated and yet he allows over 1million (estimated to be1 million as of June) to pour across the border without any mandates for vaccination. 

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Just now, Fritz said:

My post regarding this was pointing out Biden's mandate for ALL federal employees to be vaccinated and yet he allows over 1million (estimated to be1 million as of June) to pour across the border without any mandates for vaccination. 

Each state is responsible for vaccinating migrants that are in custody in that state. ICE and Border Patrol abdicated all responsibility for vaccinations on the grounds that many of the detention facilities are privately run for profit and the federal government has no jurisdiction over them. If you want Texas to start vaccinating migrants, maybe you should contact your governor and demand he do something about that.

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17 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Each state is responsible for vaccinating migrants that are in custody in that state. ICE and Border Patrol abdicated all responsibility for vaccinations on the grounds that many of the detention facilities are privately run for profit and the federal government has no jurisdiction over them. If you want Texas to start vaccinating migrants, maybe you should contact your governor and demand he do something about that.

I don't live in Texas. As was pointed out in the article they are not "in custody". They are free to leave and go anywhere they want to. 

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1 minute ago, Fritz said:

I don't live in Texas. As was pointed out in the article they are not "in custody". They are free to leave and go anywhere they want to. 

They were released from custody after they got sick, so the detention facility wouldn't be responsible for their medical care. They could have been vaccinated while they were in custody.

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20 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

They were released from custody after they got sick, so the detention facility wouldn't be responsible for their medical care. They could have been vaccinated while they were in custody.

They were in a hotel that is being rented out by the charity explicitly for Covid positive immigrants. They are free to leave anytime they wish. They were in the What a Burger unmasked, coughing and sneezing until other patrons and the management flagged down a police officer. 

Yes, they may choose to be vaccinated later, but they are not mandated to do so. Law abiding government employees on the other hand are being mandated to be vaccinated. I guess you don't have a problem with the hypocrisy.

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2 minutes ago, Fritz said:

They were in a hotel that is being rented out by the charity explicitly for Covid positive immigrants. They are free to leave anytime they wish. They were in the What a Burger unmasked, coughing and sneezing until other patrons and the management flagged down a police officer. 

Yes, they may choose to be vaccinated later, but they are not mandated to do so. Law abiding government employees on the other hand are being mandated to be vaccinated. I guess you don't have a problem with the hypocrisy.

As a condition of employment, such as working for the VA, immunizations are mandated. 
 

If you are proposing that immigrants be vaccinated because they are in the country, then does it follow you think everyone who is in the US should be vaccinated? 
 

Do you want immunizations mandated for everyone, including immigrants, or mandated for no one, including immigrants? Do you want masking mandated for everyone, including immigrants, or mandated for no one, including immigrants. Or do you just want masking and vaccines mandated for immigrants?

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3 hours ago, Plum said:

I’d be frustrated too. Especially because TX has their own way of doing things which doesn’t usually jive with CDC guidelines. It’s really hard to see whether or not those types of guidelines work when they are being undermined. 

But the local official in TX is also unhappy with the state, not just the federal government, because they have taken away local control when it comes to covid so they aren’t allowed to use the tools they want to.

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50 minutes ago, Fritz said:

They were in a hotel that is being rented out by the charity explicitly for Covid positive immigrants. They are free to leave anytime they wish. They were in the What a Burger unmasked, coughing and sneezing until other patrons and the management flagged down a police officer. 

Yes, they may choose to be vaccinated later, but they are not mandated to do so. Law abiding government employees on the other hand are being mandated to be vaccinated. I guess you don't have a problem with the hypocrisy.

I am 100% in favor of providing vaccines to all undocumented immigrants whether they are in detention or not, and providing medical care to undocumented immigrants who are ill, but the federal government does not have the power to force people in detention to be vaccinated — not even people in federal prisons, where they do have jurisdiction. 

OTOH, the federal government does have the power to mandate vaccines for federal employees, and has chosen to do so, but it's not "hypocrisy" for them to issue mandates they have the legal power to issue, while not issuing mandates they have no legal power to issue. Federal employees who don't want to be vaccinated [eta: or submit to weekly testing] have the freedom to find other employment, no one is going to hold them down and stick a needle in their arm.

Edited by Corraleno
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And the federal employee vaccine isn't even a full-out vaccine mandate (bolding is mine):

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/27/politics/vaccine-mandate-for-federal-employees-under-consideration/index.html

"President Joe Biden will announce on Thursday a requirement that all federal employees and contractors be vaccinated against Covid-19, or be required to submit to regular testing and mitigation requirements, according to a source with direct knowledge of the matter."

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46 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Law abiding government employees on the other hand are being mandated to be vaccinated. I guess you don't have a problem with the hypocrisy.

This seems like another case of whataboutism. One problem doesn't negate another. Let's find a way to get everyone vaccinated then. No hypocrisy then. (It's actually kind of crazy when I think about this, that being vaccinated is being talked about like a punishment, rather than a free health service that almost eliminates someone's chances of dying of a pandemic illness.)

4 minutes ago, Stacia said:

"President Joe Biden will announce on Thursday a requirement that all federal employees and contractors be vaccinated against Covid-19, or be required to submit to regular testing and mitigation requirements, according to a source with direct knowledge of the matter."

This keeps being left out when "mandatory vaccination" is talked about. In the majority of cases, it's not actually even mandatory vaccination. It's vaccinate or test and mitigate. I can't see what the problem would be with that unless someone is actually against preventing the spread of Covid. Some universities do just require vaccination (without the alternative option of test and mitigate) but those have exemption policies for those that can't be vaccinated.

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1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

 but the federal government does not have the power to force people in detention to be vaccinated — not even people in federal prisons, where they do have jurisdiction. 

The federal government does have the power to mandate vaccinations and medical tests for persons seeking immigration. They can very easily make this a condition of being admitted into the country, as they already do for oodles of vaccinations with everybody who is seeking permanent legal residency status, and I have no doubt that the Covid vaccine will become part of the list, but that is going to take some time.
And it has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion about mandates for federal employees. 
 

Edited by regentrude
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1 hour ago, Fritz said:

Yes, they may choose to be vaccinated later, but they are not mandated to do so. Law abiding government employees on the other hand are being mandated to be vaccinated. I guess you don't have a problem with the hypocrisy.

You make it sound like "law abiding government employees" are subjected to some heinous sort of unfair punishment. The employer is requiring vaccinations to protect the health of employees and clients they come in contact with. What on earth does that have to do with migrants? Yes, ideally, they should also be vaccinated. And there should be translators and social workers to educate them. I am pretty sure many people would gladly take up those vaccinations that may be unavailable in their home countries.

Seriously, folks elsewhere in the world are clamoring for the vaccine and dying because they don't have access, and in this country people feel it is an unfair punishment.

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2 hours ago, Fritz said:

They were in a hotel that is being rented out by the charity explicitly for Covid positive immigrants. They are free to leave anytime they wish. They were in the What a Burger unmasked, coughing and sneezing until other patrons and the management flagged down a police officer. 

And it was gravely irresponsible on part of those people to leave the facility and spread their virus, I absolutely agree. OTOH, any town in this country has Covid positive people attending country fairs and amusement parks, eating in restaurants, and sending their children to camp, and no local health authority can do anything about it or institute rules to protect the rest of the population. Masks? Oh no, freedom. It's a shit show, and pointing fingers at a tiny number of migrants is distracting from the fact that there are millions of people who willfully ignore any attempts to get this virus under control because they insist that their freedom to spread their f*ing germs trumps everything.

And if this sounds angry, you bloody well bet I am, because our hospital is full, our infection numbers are back to December, our vaccination rate is at 30%, nobody is masking, and it's an f*ing ticking time bomb. And NOT because of a dozen of immigrants in Texas, but because of the white Midwesterners who don't give a crap abut Covid mitigation.

A friend's son-in-law just died after three weeks on a ventilator. So, so unnecessary.

 

Edited by regentrude
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2 hours ago, Frances said:

As a condition of employment, such as working for the VA, immunizations are mandated. 
 

If you are proposing that immigrants be vaccinated because they are in the country, then does it follow you think everyone who is in the US should be vaccinated? 
 

Do you want immunizations mandated for everyone, including immigrants, or mandated for no one, including immigrants? Do you want masking mandated for everyone, including immigrants, or mandated for no one, including immigrants. Or do you just want masking and vaccines mandated for immigrants?

Aren't there vaccine requirements for legal immigrants?

Aren't there Covid test requirements even for US citizens flying in from abroad?

Edited by SKL
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14 minutes ago, SKL said:

Aren't there vaccine requirements for legal immigrants?

Aren't there Covid test requirements even for US citizens flying in from abroad?

I’m absolutely fine with testing and vaccines, no matter who it is, if it is legally allowed.

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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

And if this sounds angry, you bloody well bet I am, because our hospital is full, our infection numbers are back to December, our vaccination rate is at 30%, nobody is masking, and it's an f*ing ticking time bomb. And NOT because of a dozen of immigrants in Texas, but because of the white Midwesterners who don't give a crap abut Covid mitigation.

A friend's son-in-law just died after three weeks on a ventilator. So, so unnecessary.

 

Yes, I live in the same state and posted about it a couple of days ago. We are leading the country, go us! My mom (anti-vaxer) was just complaining about them bringing back mask mandates and talking about they shouldn't care if it is just unvaxxed getting sick, why does it matter. No concern for the hospital system or workers (because she told me lots of heatlh care workers are against the vax too - never mind that those stats lump together low level people like CNA and dr's). But whatever. No concern about the people that can't get vaxxed. I don't know any anti-vaxxer taking any covid precautions whatsoever (and I know a ton of anti-vaxxers- not just unvaccinated but anti-vax). Because of course as we've seen on this very board you have anti-vaxxers downplaying Covid again and again. It is NBD so who cares. 

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The US government requires that people who are granted immigration visas provide proof of vaccination before entering the country, and that people who are already in the US legally provide proof of vaccination before they are granted permanent resident status. Neither of those apply to the vast majority of undocumented immigrants who either came here legally on tourist visas and overstayed the limit, or entered the country without a visa. Refugees, for example, are not required to be vaccinated before entering the country, only when they apply for permanent resident status.

I suppose Congress could amend the Immigration and Nationality Act to require undocumented immigrants to be vaccinated before their cases are heard, but I suspect that most of the people expressing "concern" about the issue really just want them thrown out of the country, not provided with vaccinations and medical care. Because if people really did care, then it would be much easier and faster to simply provide them with vaccines (along with clear information in their own language). But why do something that would actually help save lives when you can exploit the situation for political gain by stoking outrage and hatred of immigrants?

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I don't understand the idea that an employer that requires vaccination is "discriminating" against non-vaccinated people. Do the public schools "discriminate" against unvaccinated children by mandating vaccinations? 

I suppose you could make that argument if the requirements did not allow for exceptions. That would be discrimination based on health status. 

But if you're healthy and choose not to vaccinate, how are you discriminated against if your employer says you need a vaccine? 

And again, if you believe that these requirements are discrimination, why aren't you up in arms about all of the schools, camps, etc that require vaccination? 

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