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The “vaccination divide” in the US


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28 minutes ago, SKL said:

I think 48,000 is probably an exaggeration, but it might help if people stopped pretending that vaccine injury (Covid and other) is a myth.  When neither side is being objective, it doesn't help educate the educable.

When I see the judgment here about people not believing Covid is going to kill them, it looks pretty much exactly the same as the judgment here about people believing that vax injuries exist.

As there are regular boardies who have reported issues (not deaths) with the covid vaccine, I don’t anyone here thinks it never happens. Plus, I don’t think anyone would dispute the verified blood clot deaths that have occurred. But vaccine deaths and injuries are not at all the same.

And what’s wrong with asking for a source for the claim of 48,000 deaths from covid vaccines? It’s pretty much understood on this board that sources are expected for claims.

Edited by Frances
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24 minutes ago, SKL said:

I think 48,000 is probably an exaggeration, but it might help if people stopped pretending that vaccine injury (Covid and other) is a myth.  When neither side is being objective, it doesn't help educate the educable.

When I see the judgment here about people not believing Covid is going to kill them, it looks pretty much exactly the same as the judgment here about people believing that vax injuries exist.

I haven’t seen anyone who doesn’t think that serious and very rarely, fatal vaccine reactions happen. I keep seeing these straw man arguments accusing people of believing things or saying things that nobody has said they believe. If someone ever says they don’t believe that ever happens, they are clearly wrong. That doesn’t make the people claiming 48,000 vaccine deaths (and babies dying from breastmilk and vaccines shedding and causing infertility to others, etc., etc.) right, though.

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5 minutes ago, KSera said:

I haven’t seen anyone who doesn’t think that serious and very rarely, fatal vaccine reactions happen. I keep seeing these straw man arguments accusing people of believing things or saying things that nobody has said they believe. If someone ever says they don’t believe that ever happens, they are clearly wrong. That doesn’t make the people claiming 48,000 vaccine deaths (and babies dying from breastmilk and vaccines shedding and causing infertility to others, etc., etc.) right, though.

Yes. And the constant attempts at false equivalencies are getting very, very old. 

Edited by Frances
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4 hours ago, Ottakee said:

The reason I was given today was the 48,000 people have died FROM the vaccine in the US (not just died after getting a vaccine...but from the vaccine) and that the government is hiding that fact.

Now, I do realize that there might be a very rare case of someone dying from the vaccine.   There are also cases of people dying after the vaccine, but my friend that is a doctor said that she had patients on hospice that got the vaccine so that they could see their family, even though they knew that they themselves would die in 2-6 weeks from an unrelated illness.

Any research to debunk the 48,000 people dying from the vaccine?  That someone totally steeped in the this is an experimental thing camp.

Maybe this article would be helpful?

https://covid-101.org/science/how-many-people-have-died-from-the-vaccine-in-the-u-s/

It states that VAERS has received 6,207 reports of death after the vaccine.  Out of 187.2 million people.

I know someone who refuses to get the vaccine because she is afraid of blood clots.  I've tried talking to her about the actual risk of death from the vaccine vs. covid -- especially since the AstraZeneca vaccine isn't even available here -- but she won't listen. 😞

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11 minutes ago, Junie said:

It states that VAERS has received 6,207 reports of death after the vaccine.  Out of 187.2 million people.

You just reminded me of some thing I read way back that was trying to argue that 48,000 deaths number (I think it was some thing that was actually posted by a board member here who believes in that), and part of it is that they take the number that have been reported in VAERS, even though that number is a gross inflation, and then they multiply it many fold over based on the idea that most vaccine reactions don’t get reported. Nevermind that this current Covid vaccination situation is an entirely different kettle of fish as far as how many people have been vaccinated, how much data is being collected, and the way people are misusing VAERS. 

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I actually have a question I’ve been wondering for quite a while but seems related to this topic: what is the reason for there being a significant subset of people who have been vaccinated themselves, yet they continue to encourage and distribute false vaccine information as if to discourage others from being vaccinated, despite the fact they chose to do it for themselves and often their families. Anyone have insight into that phenomenon? It appears surprisingly common.

 

Maybe it’s related to evolutionary behaviors that cause some animals to improve their survival odds over that of others?? 

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4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

No lie - I have only ever met one other person who had one in their house.  And she’s now one of my best friends. Because people like us gotta stick together. LOL

We have one. My parents bought it for us when we bought our first house. My dad, who is big on puns, called it a "house-cooling" gift 🙂

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3 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

We have several fire extinguishers, but this is reminding me that I need to check to make sure they're all still charged. They're all getting old.

Yeah, we have one, but it's been gathering dust in a corner for, oh, decades... 😬

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4 minutes ago, KSera said:

I actually have a question I’ve been wondering for quite a while but seems related to this topic: what is the reason for there being a significant subset of people who have been vaccinated themselves, yet they continue to encourage and distribute false vaccine information as if to discourage others from being vaccinated, despite the fact they chose to do it for themselves and often their families. Anyone have insight into that phenomenon? It appears surprisingly common.

 

Maybe it’s related to evolutionary behaviors that cause some animals to improve their survival odds over that of others?? 

I think some of this is contrarianism. There are people who want to believe that the majority opinion isn't right so they go out of their way to believe the opposite even if they follow mainstream behavior like getting vaxxed. 

You can see this phenomenon amongst certain types of commentators. I think there's a relationship to hate reads. Being contrary gets more clicks. 

I think it serves the purpose of making someone feel smarter than everyone else because they don't go along with everyone else. 

It's a strange phenomenon. It generally leads to continue pushing back past the point of making any sense. It also leads to championing the opinions of other non-mainstream people. Plus a persecution complex. 

 

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32 minutes ago, KSera said:

I actually have a question I’ve been wondering for quite a while but seems related to this topic: what is the reason for there being a significant subset of people who have been vaccinated themselves, yet they continue to encourage and distribute false vaccine information as if to discourage others from being vaccinated, despite the fact they chose to do it for themselves and often their families. Anyone have insight into that phenomenon? It appears surprisingly common.

 

Maybe it’s related to evolutionary behaviors that cause some animals to improve their survival odds over that of others?? 

If they're doing it online, it's for clicks. Nothing deeper. 

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5 hours ago, MrsMommy said:

I think our homeowners insurance requires it, so I just assumed everyone's did...I have one under the kitchen sink.

Ours does too.  Or at least asks about it.

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

 As a result we were given an advance of insurance money and we went to K-Mart to buy a few things to tide us over.  Brings back a smile now to say we bought during the "blue light special" I think it was called. 

Yep, blue light specials.  My first job (other than babysitting), when I was 16 was for Kmart and I used to do the blue light special announcements.  "Attention Kmart Shoppers, if you look up and around, you'll see that flashing blue light in our <<whatever department>> where we are having a special on our <<whatever whatever>> for just <<<whatever amount>>>.  That's right shoppers, just <<amount>> for our <<item>>, but this special is limited so come on over to the <<department>> before the flashing blue light ends".

 

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2 hours ago, KSera said:

I actually have a question I’ve been wondering for quite a while but seems related to this topic: what is the reason for there being a significant subset of people who have been vaccinated themselves, yet they continue to encourage and distribute false vaccine information as if to discourage others from being vaccinated, despite the fact they chose to do it for themselves and often their families. Anyone have insight into that phenomenon? It appears surprisingly common.

 

Maybe it’s related to evolutionary behaviors that cause some animals to improve their survival odds over that of others?? 

I haven't seen that.  I've seen people continue to support voluntary informed consent and oppose forced vaccinations (not that any have been forced so far, that I know of).  I've seen people support individuals' rights to decide based on their own individual health situation.

Can you give an example of someone posting false vaccine information that goes against the decision s/he made for his/her own family?  (Not people asking questions, but posting lies as facts.)

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7 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

😂

Except I have had people comment on how paranoid I must be to own a fire extinguisher. I have one of those little ones right outside the garage door into my kitchen so everyone sees it when they come in. And more than one person has laughed about it. 🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Not paranoid, but I might be. We have four. One in the kitchen, one by each staircase, and one by the door. I heard it's good to have them available to spray your way out of the house in a fire, so that's our strategy, lol! 

IIRC, Aldi had them for a while, and the price was really good, which is why we have so many. 

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

Can you give an example of someone posting false vaccine information that goes against the decision s/he made for his/her own family?  (Not people asking questions, but posting lies as facts.)

I see it frequently with some people in the media and some politicians. I'm not going to go looking for examples right now, but will point it out and tag you next time I see it here. I can't do that with the politics ones, because against board rules. I can pull this one as a mild example from this page:

Quote

I think 48,000 is probably an exaggeration, but it might help if people stopped pretending that vaccine injury (Covid and other) is a myth.  When neither side is being objective, it doesn't help educate the educable.

When I see the judgment here about people not believing Covid is going to kill them, it looks pretty much exactly the same as the judgment here about people believing that vax injuries exist.

So, the 48,000 is clearly not just an exaggeration, but is outright false, so to say that it's just "probably an exaggeration" is a more subtle form of furthering misinformation. It's also totally false that anyone here is pretending that vaccine injury is a myth. Which made it humorous that you followed up about people putting words in other people's mouths 😂.

Beyond that, the italicized portion in your first quote above is actually key, and is frequently an even bigger issue "Not people asking questions, but posting lies as facts." The technique of "asking question" rather than outright posting lies is one of the most commonly used among those spreading conspiracy theories. The idea is to make people think it was their own idea. It also gives people plausible deniablity, "I was just asking [said innocently]" Among all the QAnon dispersers, this is the technique used over and over. So, to say you're not looking for where people were just asking questions, but where they are posting lies as facts, misses a good portion of the anti-vax stuff.

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7 hours ago, Ottakee said:

The reason I was given today was the 48,000 people have died FROM the vaccine in the US (not just died after getting a vaccine...but from the vaccine) and that the government is hiding that fact.

Now, I do realize that there might be a very rare case of someone dying from the vaccine.   There are also cases of people dying after the vaccine, but my friend that is a doctor said that she had patients on hospice that got the vaccine so that they could see their family, even though they knew that they themselves would die in 2-6 weeks from an unrelated illness.

Any research to debunk the 48,000 people dying from the vaccine?  That someone totally steeped in the this is an experimental thing camp.


afaik the 48K or whatever the number is in that range* is from someone under oath but under whistleblower identity protection in one of the court cases. It is based on access to CDC or similar records iirc. It will probably get dealt with during litigation process, a process which tends to grind slowly along 

I don’t think most of us can prove it true or false other than waiting for the court proceedings 

 

*I think K heard 45K as a rounded number 

Edited by Pen
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2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I see it frequently with some people in the media and some politicians. I'm not going to go looking for examples right now, but will point it out and tag you next time I see it here. I can't do that with the politics ones, because against board rules. I can pull this one as a mild example from this page:

So, the 48,000 is clearly not just an exaggeration, but is outright false, so to say that it's just "probably an exaggeration" is a more subtle form of furthering misinformation. It's also totally false that anyone here is pretending that vaccine injury is a myth. Which made it humorous that you followed up about people putting words in other people's mouths 😂.

Beyond that, the italicized portion in your first quote above is actually key, and is frequently an even bigger issue "Not people asking questions, but posting lies as facts." The technique of "asking question" rather than outright posting lies is one of the most commonly used among those spreading conspiracy theories. The idea is to make people think it was their own idea. It also gives people plausible deniablity, "I was just asking [said innocently]" Among all the QAnon dispersers, this is the technique used over and over. So, to say you're not looking for where people were just asking questions, but where they are posting lies as facts, misses a good portion of the anti-vax stuff.

OK well I have seen some crazy stuff on facebook, mostly from Cuban refugees or their children, who greatly fear government control.  But I don't have any reason to believe they have vaccinated themselves or their kids.

As for your strange reading of what you quoted from me, what can I say ... I know exactly what my intention was.  Exaggeration is defined as "a statement that represents something as better or worse than it really is."  To say something is an exaggeration is NOT to say the stated number is the truth; that is about as twisted an interpretation as I've ever seen.  It is true that there have been some vax related deaths.  And when people point that out, as you demonstrate for us, the words "conspiracy theory" are used to attempt stifle that.  And admitting the fact that there have been some vax deaths gets me in the same classification as QAnon.

When people use this kind of technique to try to stop others from considering the possibility of vax injuries, it gets agreement from people who already agree with you, so yay.  But its effect on those honestly questioning?  Most likely they will not trust you on that subject.

I wish you could see how illogical it looks to insult the intelligent human tendency to ask questions.

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45 minutes ago, Longtime Lurker said:

Wait, we're supposed to charge them? How?

Some fire extinguishers can be recharged and some just have to be thrown out when they lose their charge. Most of mine have gauges that show the charge level. I don’t know how to tell the difference in the ones that can be recharged or can’t. My brother is a long time volunteer fireman, EMT and fire safety instructor. He also has all sorts of HAZMAT certifications. So I ask him and do whatever he says. I’m sure someone at your local fire department could help you. 

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26 minutes ago, Pen said:


afaik the 48K or whatever the number is in that range* is from someone under oath but under whistleblower identity protection in one of the court cases. It is based on access to CDC or similar records iirc. It will probably get dealt with during litigation process, a process which tends to grind slowly along 

I don’t think most of us can prove it true or false other than waiting for the court proceedings 

 

*I think K heard 45K as a rounded number 

It comes from what I said before (that someone took the completely unverified VAERS reports and multiplied them), and is being widely spread on social media, which is why we're hearing about it now here. Here's a fact check: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/22/instagram-posts/no-evidence-45000-deaths-covid-19-vaccines/ It comes from the same group that brought us Stella Immanuel, the demon spawn lady.

19 minutes ago, SKL said:

OK well I have seen some crazy stuff on facebook, mostly from Cuban refugees or their children, who greatly fear government control.  But I don't have any reason to believe they have vaccinated themselves or their kids.

As for your strange reading of what you quoted from me, what can I say ... I know exactly what my intention was.  Exaggeration is defined as "a statement that represents something as better or worse than it really is."  To say something is an exaggeration is NOT to say the stated number is the truth; that is about as twisted an interpretation as I've ever seen.  It is true that there have been some vax related deaths.  And when people point that out, as you demonstrate for us, the words "conspiracy theory" are used to attempt stifle that.  And admitting the fact that there have been some vax deaths gets me in the same classification as QAnon.

When people use this kind of technique to try to stop others from considering the possibility of vax injuries, it gets agreement from people who already agree with you, so yay.  But its effect on those honestly questioning?  Most likely they will not trust you on that subject.

I wish you could see how illogical it looks to insult the intelligent human tendency to ask questions.

What the what?? Talk about putting words in people's mouths! I don't even know where to start. Where did I say that admitting there have been some vax deaths get you the same classification as QAnon?  I admit there have been vaccine deaths. I've said it already in this thread. I will again. THERE HAVE BEEN VACCINE DEATHS. There. See, I have said it loud and clear. Hopefully you won't continue with saying that people here won't admit there are vaccine deaths. I have responded to threads about them and expressed sorrow about them. I have acknowledged Australia in particular has been in a lousy decision making place with it when there was no covid, but AZ was their main vaccine choice. I did NOT say vaccine injury or death was a conspiracy theory. Ever, ever.

My point about exaggeration is that to say something is "probably" an exaggeration sounds to ME like it "might" be inflated a bit. Not that it's just flat out grossly untrue. If someone said I was 30 feet tall, and someone else who knows me said that was probably an exaggeration, you would expect that meant that I was likely at least very tall indeed, not that I was under 5 feet tall.

And as far as asking questions, I'm not talking about the general human tendency to ask questions. I'm talking about a very particular kind of question, specifically intended to lead people to certain ideas, and often to plant doubts. It's a totally different thing than normal questions for the purpose of learning. I find it disingenuous for anyone to pretend they don't know how that looks very different.

Edited by KSera
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1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

Some fire extinguishers can be recharged and some just have to be thrown out when they lose their charge. Most of mine have gauges that show the charge level. I don’t know how to tell the difference in the ones that can be recharged or can’t. My brother is a long time volunteer fireman, EMT and fire safety instructor. He also has all sorts of HAZMAT certifications. So I ask him and do whatever he says. I’m sure someone at your local fire department could help you. 

Thanks! I will check ours ASAP. I guess just sticking it in a (handy) cupboard and not looking at it for 20 years was not the best idea 😞

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2 minutes ago, KSera said:

My point about exaggeration is that to say something is "probably" an exaggeration sounds to ME like it "might" be inflated a bit. Not that it's just flat out grossly untrue. If someone said I was 30 feet tall, and someone else who knows me said that was probably an exaggeration, you would expect that meant that I was likely at least very tall indeed, not that I was under 5 feet tall.

Well maybe it meant "I don't have time to scientifically verify what the actual number is, so let's just say 48,000 is probably way more than the actual number"?  I think most objective people would read it that way.

I mean I do have a full time job, a house, two kids, and a dog to take up my time.  And I don't frequently check the VAERS data.  I have looked at it in some detail in the past.  There is enough in there that I think it's wrong to diss people who have health concerns and don't want to risk this vax.

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9 minutes ago, KSera said:

And as far as asking questions, I'm not talking about the general human tendency to ask questions. I'm talking about a very particular kind of question, specifically intended to lead people to certain ideas, and often to plant doubts. It's a totally different thing than normal questions for the purpose of learning. I find it disingenuous for anyone to pretend they don't know how that looks very different.

While I agree there are people who use the misleading question tactic, I also see you reading a lot into the words of people who really are just trying to have a rational conversation.

Anyhoo.  I gotta go deal with my real life problems.

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13 minutes ago, KSera said:

It comes from what I said before (that someone took the completely unverified VAERS reports and multiplied them), and is being widely spread on social media, which is why we're hearing about it now here. Here's a fact check: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/22/instagram-posts/no-evidence-45000-deaths-covid-19-vaccines/ It comes from the same group that brought us Stella Immanuel, the demon spawn lady.

What the what?? Talk about putting words in people's mouths! I don't even know where to start. Where did I say that admitting there have been some vax deaths get you the same classification as QAnon?  I admit there have been vaccine deaths. I've said it already in this thread. I will again. THERE HAVE BEEN VACCINE DEATHS. There. See, I have said it loud and clear. Hopefully you won't continue with saying that people here won't admit there are vaccine deaths. I have responded to threads about them and expressed sorrow about them. I have acknowledged Australia in particular has been in a lousy decision making place with it when there was no covid, but AZ was their main vaccine choice. I did NOT say vaccine injury or death was a conspiracy theory. Ever, ever.

My point about exaggeration is that to say something is "probably" an exaggeration sounds to ME like it "might" be inflated a bit. Not that it's just flat out grossly untrue. If someone said I was 30 feet tall, and someone else who knows me said that was probably an exaggeration, you would expect that meant that I was likely at least very tall indeed, not that I was under 5 feet tall.

And as far as asking questions, I'm not talking about the general human tendency to ask questions. I'm talking about a very particular kind of question, specifically intended to lead people to certain ideas, and often to plant doubts. It's a totally different thing than normal questions for the purpose of learning. I find it disingenuous for anyone to pretend they don't know how that looks very different.


Who are the “experts” at Politifact?  
 

most fact checking organizations I have tried to look into do not have expertise in subjects they are “fact checking”

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Plum said:

So I’m just going to stream of consciousness here since I don’t have a lot of time. 
 

I don’t consider myself in this camp however I do feel a sense of advocacy for those that are unvaccinated. We have been extremely fortunate that the disability caused by the vaccine can be mitigated by a change in lifestyle and possibly a change in location. I am fortunate that I chose to pay for short and long term disability during open enrollment. Life will look different for us but we won’t be totally wrecked by this. Others aren’t so lucky. We have thought long and hard and struggled with these decisions. Dh goes back and forth between getting the proposed booster and risking further complications and his duty as someone in healthcare. I was scared to get the vaccine and ultimately decided his situation is a one-off and not reflective of what will happen to us  I got the kids vaccinated as well. I shouldn’t have to defend myself by saying I’m vaccinated to prove I’m not an antivaxxer. These are decisions that many have thought long and hard about. Maybe I take it personally because I know how hard it is to get doctors to make it official. Most shrug and say there’s a lot we don’t know and it’s entirely possible. When I can see for myself a clear line pre and post covid and then pre and post vaccine.  So when the world is pressuring the unvaccinated and being all sorts of ugly I get a little defensive. I want people to get vaccinated because they want to. Not because they will lose their job. Not because they have been shamed into it by their coworkers. I want them to be confident in their decision because there is no recourse if they are less fortunate than us. Just as I wouldn’t want to get someone sick with covid to wouldn’t want to convince someone to get the vaccine and then they have a bad reaction. I know in my head most reactions are mild and go away. It’s easy to say we are just talking about ignorant white Trumpsters that would rather spit in your face than get the vaccine but there’s a whole other segment of the unvaccinated population that are minorities who have been hit hardest by this virus and are afraid of the government and mistrust doctors. How are they taking the blame campaign?  It’s really easy to think X should know better. There’s people that don’t have access or the education. There’s people who have health conditions. People who have had bad experiences with doctors. People who are afraid of needles.
I get emotional when talking about all of this. It’s why I avoided the covid threads as much as I could. I can see both sides quite clearly. I prefer to think out loud about all of this. I know I’m wrong in some cases. I just really don’t like the naming and shaming I see going on when I know what the potential ramifications of getting COVID and getting the vaccine could be. 

I appreciate you taking the time to give that long answer, even when it's an emotional subject for you. Contrary to what it might sound like, I very much understand feeling conflicted about the possibility of being the one a rare event happens to. My kids were mostly vaxed on a delayed, alternative schedule, with some vaccines skipped, because I worried so much about something happening to them as a result of me deciding to get them vaccinated. Particulary since the diseases were ones I wasn't actually particularly worried about them getting (due to them either being rare or not very serious). I would never berate someone specifically for not getting vaxed, and never have. I have people I love who aren't vaccinated, and we have hardly spoken of it. I have friends I would be pretty sure aren't, and I wouldn't put any pressure or ugliness on them. Where I do have a big issue is with people spreading nonsense and lies about it (not you, obviously). And I hear some of that nonsense and lies come back to me from a couple of my unvaxed family members in particular, and it makes me frustrated, because they and their families are now at risk. But I don't say anything to them about it.

I'm very sorry your dh has been negatively effected. It's super crummy, and I'm actually impressed you were able to follow the logic of it being rare and go forward with vaccination, because I honestly think that would have been hard for me. While I had no concerns with any of the adults in my family (there are 4 of us), I had a little concern with my teen ds, since he's in the group with more risk. But, like you, I did move forward based on the knowledge that the odds of him being harmed by covid were greater than of him being harmed by the vaccine.

I just feel so upset about all the misinformation because there are SO MANY people dying right now who don't need to. Whole families being left motherless or fatherless. It breaks my heart, and almost every time I hear family members talking, they talk about having heard these lies and having believed it, and having such incredible, immense regret. I just don't want people to keep going through that. It's needless, and almost all these people would still be alive had they been vaccinated.

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48 minutes ago, Pen said:


afaik the 48K or whatever the number is in that range* is from someone under oath but under whistleblower identity protection in one of the court cases. It is based on access to CDC or similar records iirc. It will probably get dealt with during litigation process, a process which tends to grind slowly along 

I don’t think most of us can prove it true or false other than waiting for the court proceedings 

 

*I think K heard 45K as a rounded number 

Nm

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10 minutes ago, Pen said:

I suggest that people at least go to source documents for themselves 

here is a screenshot from the filings

 

image.thumb.png.d253cd9c1b4acb00f9b229a54404a860.png

The documents are all there to look at on the Politifact page about it.

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1 hour ago, Wheres Toto said:

Ours does too.  Or at least asks about it.

Yep, blue light specials.  My first job (other than babysitting), when I was 16 was for Kmart and I used to do the blue light special announcements.  "Attention Kmart Shoppers, if you look up and around, you'll see that flashing blue light in our <<whatever department>> where we are having a special on our <<whatever whatever>> for just <<<whatever amount>>>.  That's right shoppers, just <<amount>> for our <<item>>, but this special is limited so come on over to the <<department>> before the flashing blue light ends".

 

That was my job too... I worked there through high school and for the first year and half of college.

 

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Behavior is shifting in my area. Last week, very few masked at Costco. My DH just went this weekend. He said 70% of the people were masking.

Edited by calbear
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2 hours ago, KSera said:

The documents are all there to look at on the Politifact page about it.


then people should be able to see that it is not just a matter of multiplying the VAERS number but rather also using the Medicare data base, CMS, which would be a subset of the total expected 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Pen said:


then people should be able to see that it is not just a matter of multiplying the VAERS number but rather also using the Medicare data base, CMS, which would be a subset of the total expected 

 

 

We know nothing of what the data is she is basing this on, but more than that, this document is an addendum to a lawsuit that is so full of crazy that it's hard to believe the people filing it believe a word it says (it's quite likely they don't). I'm no legal scholar, but I have a hard time seeing them do anything but throw it out. I mean, the whole thing is based on the premise "There is in Fact no Serious or Life-Threatening Disease or Condition" which is just plain sick.

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On 7/31/2021 at 1:34 PM, Plum said:

I get what you are saying, but it sounds like we're not going to worry so much about ensuring people don't end up in the hospital (and there are vaccinated people in the hospital) through outpatient treatments....because optics. The hospitals are completely overwhelmed, exhausted and severely understaffed. Everything we can do to avoid that should be a priority, the vaccine shouldn't be the only way. 

Optics over science is just as bad as misinformation. Taking temps at the door was security theater. Stuff like that loses public trust as well.

I have never in my life thought a cold medicine would cure me. It is just supposed to suppress symptoms. 

But, that isn't what I said. It seems a small thing, but I don't want to be misconstrued or misunderstood. I was not listing excuses for this idea of "optics over science". My post was stating that my county is trying to tell people about MAT. I was outlining the challenges and considerations they are taking while doing that, not giving excuses why to not do it. 

For my red county, which never had mask mandates (but allowed towns to at their own discretion), and has been very "don't rock the boat" on this whole thing, they have decided to emphasize vaccines. Prevention is their first concern because it is going to be the most effective at keeping people out of hospitals (and alive) (and without potential longterm health costs). And so, vaccines is their first message because that is currently the best way to do this. Not their only message, but their first. (eta: the underlining is to correspond to the underlining in the quote)

And all this said, and not taking away from my support of better information about treatment and other mitigation efforts like masks, isolation, protocols, OTC and at home care, etc., I don't think we should be expecting the government to be overly bending over with nuanced and full-fledged information tracts in their general mass marketing to make the populace feel informed about all the options and alternatives when vaccination is clearly the best option in 95-99% of cases. It's easier to close the barn door than to run around chasing the horses later, and they are trying to close the doors while there are still a fair number of horses to be kept in.

This isn't misinformation, or playing to optics; this is efficient use of first messaging, tax dollars, attentions spans, and gives the highest chance of a positive outcome [as much as can be gotten at this point anyway]. It's not their fault if people aren't willing to listen to any message, let alone the second or third.

Also, just because we don't see the messaging doesn't mean it isn't there; if we aren't the target audience needing the message, we may not be where the message is loudest, like when at a pharmacy or clinic specifically for Covid or on a contact tracing list. [eta: I don't think my County is doing this quite yet, but I do know they want to do more now that more treatments have been approved and are more widely available in this area.]

eta: I think there is so much variation in how local governments are reacting and what they are messaging that it is hard to fully talk about this without using faulty generals. In your area it could very well be optics over science; I am just talking about my specific location.

Edited by Moonhawk
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So, interesting, I just read an article about vaccine hesitancy and one of the people interviewed was a young 20-something 'wellness' type woman who said she wouldn't vaccine, except she is going to have to (in order to travel overseas) and so she has decided that 'if I trust my body to handle covid, I can trust it to handle the vaccine'.

In other words, a lot of the anti-vaxxers might change their tune if it is REALLY inconvenient to remain unvaccinated. So perhaps rather than trying to 'change their minds', the government needs to make life a lot more inconvenient for anti-vaxxers. It seems to be working for masking, in Sydney; threat of $5000 fine means either they wear it or they don't go out in public.

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1 hour ago, bookbard said:

So, interesting, I just read an article about vaccine hesitancy and one of the people interviewed was a young 20-something 'wellness' type woman who said she wouldn't vaccine, except she is going to have to (in order to travel overseas) and so she has decided that 'if I trust my body to handle covid, I can trust it to handle the vaccine'.

In other words, a lot of the anti-vaxxers might change their tune if it is REALLY inconvenient to remain unvaccinated. So perhaps rather than trying to 'change their minds', the government needs to make life a lot more inconvenient for anti-vaxxers. It seems to be working for masking, in Sydney; threat of $5000 fine means either they wear it or they don't go out in public.

It was just on the news that about a 100 local bars and restaurants will not let you in unless you show your vaccination card.  This is not government requiring anything.  It is private businesses setting their own policies to keep themselves and their patrons safe.  I am all for it.  If people don't want to vaccinate there are plenty of other restaurants etc. that they can go to or they can cook at home or just get takeout. 

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I’m sorry I’m putting this here out of the blue and, I think, unconnected to anything being discussed at the moment, but it goes. 

My frustration is with someone I love who has had COVID and *thinks* that means they never need the vaccine. This person *thinks* they have “more antibodies” than I, the vaccinated person “had put in from the vaccine.” (I know that is not how the vaccine works, but it’s not the point to debate about.) 

It is one subject which I do NOT hear regularly addressed by the talking heads. I listened to a radio broadcast for an hour yesterday while driving - Fauci was on there, it was a Q&A - but this was not discussed. To be sure, if I google, “I have had COVID, do I need the vaccine?” I will get hundreds, if not more, of reliable links (Hopkins, UMMC, Chicago University Medical System, etc...) that say somewhere between three months after illness to eight months after illness, with a healthy heap of, “we don’t know how long/well natural immunity lasts.” But ALL recommend getting the vaccine post-COVID, though not immediately afterwards. However, Person I Love does not care how many links there may be to that effect or what those sources may be; they are fixated on the one Doctor Talking Head YouTuber who said, “If you have had COVID, you do not need to get the vaccine.” 

So I am left with *hoping* natural immunity saves the day for a while to come, and I am grateful to live where a lot of people have been vaccinated because there is less virus circulating here so neither I not the Person are that likely to have a breakthrough infection anyway. 

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11 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

Ours does too.  Or at least asks about it.

Yep, blue light specials.  My first job (other than babysitting), when I was 16 was for Kmart and I used to do the blue light special announcements.  "Attention Kmart Shoppers, if you look up and around, you'll see that flashing blue light in our <<whatever department>> where we are having a special on our <<whatever whatever>> for just <<<whatever amount>>>.  That's right shoppers, just <<amount>> for our <<item>>, but this special is limited so come on over to the <<department>> before the flashing blue light ends".

 

Thanks for that!  I'm going to read your reply to DH - go down memory lane!  WOW!  I'm smiling as I type this.  🙂  

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3 hours ago, Quill said:

I’m sorry I’m putting this here out of the blue and, I think, unconnected to anything being discussed at the moment, but it goes. 

My frustration is with someone I love who has had COVID and *thinks* that means they never need the vaccine. This person *thinks* they have “more antibodies” than I, the vaccinated person “had put in from the vaccine.” (I know that is not how the vaccine works, but it’s not the point to debate about.) 

It is one subject which I do NOT hear regularly addressed by the talking heads. I listened to a radio broadcast for an hour yesterday while driving - Fauci was on there, it was a Q&A - but this was not discussed. To be sure, if I google, “I have had COVID, do I need the vaccine?” I will get hundreds, if not more, of reliable links (Hopkins, UMMC, Chicago University Medical System, etc...) that say somewhere between three months after illness to eight months after illness, with a healthy heap of, “we don’t know how long/well natural immunity lasts.” But ALL recommend getting the vaccine post-COVID, though not immediately afterwards. However, Person I Love does not care how many links there may be to that effect or what those sources may be; they are fixated on the one Doctor Talking Head YouTuber who said, “If you have had COVID, you do not need to get the vaccine.” 

So I am left with *hoping* natural immunity saves the day for a while to come, and I am grateful to live where a lot of people have been vaccinated because there is less virus circulating here so neither I not the Person are that likely to have a breakthrough infection anyway. 

I too have been wondering when they are going to give us reliable, official updates re (1) how long natural immunity lasts for general Covid and (2) how well natural immunity protects against variants.

I do believe it is reasonable to rely on natural immunity, based on what we know now.  We do know that there are some people who get diseases twice, but that is rare.  I think it's actually more rare than breakthrough Covid cases, based on what I've read.  But I don't know if that applies to the more communicable variants.

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4 hours ago, Quill said:

I’m sorry I’m putting this here out of the blue and, I think, unconnected to anything being discussed at the moment, but it goes. 

My frustration is with someone I love who has had COVID and *thinks* that means they never need the vaccine. This person *thinks* they have “more antibodies” than I, the vaccinated person “had put in from the vaccine.” (I know that is not how the vaccine works, but it’s not the point to debate about.) 

It is one subject which I do NOT hear regularly addressed by the talking heads. I listened to a radio broadcast for an hour yesterday while driving - Fauci was on there, it was a Q&A - but this was not discussed. To be sure, if I google, “I have had COVID, do I need the vaccine?” I will get hundreds, if not more, of reliable links (Hopkins, UMMC, Chicago University Medical System, etc...) that say somewhere between three months after illness to eight months after illness, with a healthy heap of, “we don’t know how long/well natural immunity lasts.” But ALL recommend getting the vaccine post-COVID, though not immediately afterwards. However, Person I Love does not care how many links there may be to that effect or what those sources may be; they are fixated on the one Doctor Talking Head YouTuber who said, “If you have had COVID, you do not need to get the vaccine.” 

So I am left with *hoping* natural immunity saves the day for a while to come, and I am grateful to live where a lot of people have been vaccinated because there is less virus circulating here so neither I not the Person are that likely to have a breakthrough infection anyway. 

Eta: apologies for thinking it your dh/   Please insert idea of the person whoever it is anywhere I made that error


Based on university level study of immunology in my younger days, it is true that we do not know how long natural immunity will last and it cannot be guaranteed to be the same for each person.
 

OTOH natural immunity based on actual infection with a germ is likely to be more robust than vaccine induced immunity based on only a fragment thereof. And based on experience with the quite similar SARS1, it is likely to be at least many years - assuming that the illness Covid19 is actually caused by a similar SARS2 virus. 
 

It is not merely a matter of “antibodies” but an extremely complex interplay of innate and acquired immunity, including T cells and memory B cells. At the time I was in school it was not thought that the innate immune system had any “memory” - but in the years since then it was found that it too has something akin to memory which is referred to as “training”.  
 

(ETA: and where there was an actual infection the memory and training are more likely to encompass a broader range of parts (nucleid, capsid, spike, etc or various different aspects depending upon the germ involved; perhaps there was even already more than one variant in the natural infection-rather that just the one type of spike sequence encoded for in the jab material, so that it is more likely that subsequent variants and strains may still be at least partly recognized and an immune response initiated. )  Plus there is the likely benefit that both arms of the immune system, innate and acquired and perhaps more aspects of the acquired immune system) may have training / memory giving more nimble and robust -and perhaps also more nuanced (less risk of ADE for example, perhaps) response potential .)
 

If I were in your dh situation, I would still want to het get and keep my “terrain” (general health) good, including good levels for me personally of D, zinc, selenium, etc (already talked about what I expect you consider ad nauseum ). And to be ready with an early treatment protocol personal kit for just in case. (As optimum as possible for myself, not just “good” minimum acceptable.) 

Part of “terrain” for good health is almost certainly also emotional. 
 

(Based on SARS1 experience it is likely that the natural immunity will last at least 18 years / since it started in 2002 that’s the history to this point. Otoh it looks right now like the vaccines are possibly not giving lasting immunity for many people at just a year out.   That’s at least supposedly why boosters are being considered already in Israel. And it seemed in many cases I read about that Immune system experience with SARS1 also gave immunity to SARS2 — and given that SARS2 differs more from SARS1 than the delta variant of SARS2 differs from alpha SARS2 that’s significant.) 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Quill said:

I’m sorry I’m putting this here out of the blue and, I think, unconnected to anything being discussed at the moment, but it goes. 

My frustration is with someone I love who has had COVID and *thinks* that means they never need the vaccine. This person *thinks* they have “more antibodies” than I, the vaccinated person “had put in from the vaccine.” (I know that is not how the vaccine works, but it’s not the point to debate about.) 

It is one subject which I do NOT hear regularly addressed by the talking heads. I listened to a radio broadcast for an hour yesterday while driving - Fauci was on there, it was a Q&A - but this was not discussed. To be sure, if I google, “I have had COVID, do I need the vaccine?” I will get hundreds, if not more, of reliable links (Hopkins, UMMC, Chicago University Medical System, etc...) that say somewhere between three months after illness to eight months after illness, with a healthy heap of, “we don’t know how long/well natural immunity lasts.” But ALL recommend getting the vaccine post-COVID, though not immediately afterwards. However, Person I Love does not care how many links there may be to that effect or what those sources may be; they are fixated on the one Doctor Talking Head YouTuber who said, “If you have had COVID, you do not need to get the vaccine.” 

So I am left with *hoping* natural immunity saves the day for a while to come, and I am grateful to live where a lot of people have been vaccinated because there is less virus circulating here so neither I not the Person are that likely to have a breakthrough infection anyway. 

Rather than try to convince him that his preferred youtuber is "wrong," I'd focus on the idea that the advice is outdated, because Delta is far more infectious, with viral loads more than 1000x higher than previous strains and mutations that specifically help it evade antibodies, including antibodies acquired from previous infection with other strains. Has he checked to see whether his favorite Youtuber has updated the advice recently? If he doesn't trust the CDC, would news stories about actual increases in reinfection with Delta be more persuasive? 

E.g.:

"the risk of reinfection with Delta may be 46% greater than with the Alpha variant, with the highest risk seen six months after a first infection – when second cases caused by Delta were 2.37 times more common than with Alpha." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/23/phe-upgrade-delta-variants-risk-level-due-to-reinfection-risk

 "All those who think you have natural immunity, you don't," Stack said. "If you got infected and it was six months ago and you think you're bulletproof, you're not. This virus is reinfecting people at a much higher rate than the previous versions. Even if you've had COVID, you should get vaccinated." https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2021/07/26/covid-19-delta-variant-kentucky-how-to-watch-beshear-update/8090806002/

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re "natural immunity affords better protection"

4 hours ago, Quill said:

I’m sorry I’m putting this here out of the blue and, I think, unconnected to anything being discussed at the moment, but it goes. 

My frustration is with someone I love who has had COVID and *thinks* that means they never need the vaccine. This person *thinks* they have “more antibodies” than I, the vaccinated person “had put in from the vaccine.” (I know that is not how the vaccine works, but it’s not the point to debate about.) 

It is one subject which I do NOT hear regularly addressed by the talking heads. I listened to a radio broadcast for an hour yesterday while driving - Fauci was on there, it was a Q&A - but this was not discussed. To be sure, if I google, “I have had COVID, do I need the vaccine?” I will get hundreds, if not more, of reliable links (Hopkins, UMMC, Chicago University Medical System, etc...) that say somewhere between three months after illness to eight months after illness, with a healthy heap of, “we don’t know how long/well natural immunity lasts.” But ALL recommend getting the vaccine post-COVID, though not immediately afterwards. However, Person I Love does not care how many links there may be to that effect or what those sources may be; they are fixated on the one Doctor Talking Head YouTuber who said, “If you have had COVID, you do not need to get the vaccine.” 

So I am left with *hoping* natural immunity saves the day for a while to come, and I am grateful to live where a lot of people have been vaccinated because there is less virus circulating here so neither I not the Person are that likely to have a breakthrough infection anyway. 

This actually doesn't surprise me at all -- it is exactly where we were a year ago, with ~half the country advocated Let Er Rip as the only "public policy" (!) necessary or desirable.  Including a great many public and political figures.  Including a great many board members.

Let Er Rip so we get to herd "naturally" was the messaging, for a good long time, by and to and among a good number of Americans.  That many Americans still hold to that messaging even after the vaccine is developed/deployed/freely available isn't, to me, surprising.

And the reality is: this is a new disease. We don't know how long immunity lasts. From *either* natural infection *or* the vaccine.  And we CANNOT know, until time elapses and actual data can be gathered 12 months, 18 months, 24 months out from the date of confirmed case or vaccine.

We don't know how well prior infection will protect against the Delta variant, or how well the vaccines will protect against the Delta variant; and we CANNOT know until sufficient time elapses and community spread occurs that we can get actual data (ie where we are today, with Delta).

And we certainly don't know how well prior infection will protect against the NEXT variant, or how well viz the existing vaccines.

It is a new disease.

We.

Don't.

Know.

 

And while nobody ~~ likes ~~ uncertainty about matters as important as life and health and death... we have different go-to strategies of how we tend to respond to uncertainty.  Some trust in chariots (=science and experts, in this case); some trust in horses (="natural" immunity, in this case); and others in the Lord (which in this case I suppose could go either in a "MY Lord will save ME from harm, #NotMyProblem if others are Left Behind" kind of direction, or in "I'm personally ready to meet my Maker" kind of way, which ultimately may amount to the same thing). 

Sounds like you're on Team Chariot *, while your loved one is on Team Horse.  I can see how that could be frustrating (particularly if your moral frame is wider-lens than his) but to me, not surprising.

 

 

 

 

* me too, FWIW; DM me if you're interested in how that fits my personal theology LOL

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What frustrates me is that for the most part, the people who are strongly against the COVID vax, and really riding the "experimental treatment, not fully approved, dangerous, blood clots, fetal cells, is going to alter your DNA" type reasons, not due to medical reasons or even past experience with vaccinations being less than ideal, are also the ones who will swear up and down that masks aren't necessary, that kids don't get COVID, and that they don't know ANYONE who has had COVID, or at least hasn't had worse than a bad cold (and if they claim they've had COVID, were never actually tested-often claiming that colds as early as October 2019 were COVID). Yet, these are folks in the same homeschool circles I am in, and we've had three people in that circle lose family members due to COVID before vaccination was available-including one who's husband died of COVID-with no prior medical issues, and only in his '50's. 

 

I have friends who are not vaccinated either due to medical issues, that they've had COVID recently, or because they have had enough prior bad experiences with vaccination that while this one is not counterindicated, they're wary. I understand that. They're generally very careful and are not trying to convince others not to get vaccinated. And some of them are getting updated medical advice and getting vaccinated now, either because they can now do it at a doctor's office, with more support, or because Delta has changed the equation. 

 

 

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