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The “vaccination divide” in the US


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Not sure where to put this, so I will just put this here. Please do not quote.

Cases have gone WAY up over the last week. So far hospitalizations have not, but we will see.  One county is now up to 18 cases per 100,000 and positivity of 16 percent. Other county is 44 per hundred thousand and  positivity of 10 percent, but infection rate is 1.38 percent.  Our youth are currently at youth camp...hundreds of kids unmasked and close together. Tons of pictures being posted. I guess we will see what happens when they return. 

That said, all that I know of so far are having "mild"cases. No one hospitalized. We shall see. Not saying anything because I think I am already viewed as chicken little, but masking. In person school this week, which looked like a good option 3 months ago. Now, not so much. I am double masking but the only one in the room to mask at all. Small room 20 people. No social distancing. Have absolutely no clue about vaccination status on any of them. The county were I am has 18 cases per 100,000 and positivity of 12 percent. So I guess we will see. I get SO much more out of in person classes. Being live doesn't help that much. It is easy to work on other stuff and not engage, which you cannot do when you are in person.  We will see how I fare next week. Probably should have made a different choice, but until this week,  it looked like a reasonable choice.  Of course, when I signed up masks were mandated here. And everyone may be vaccinated. I just do not know.

Thank you for letting me vent.

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I wonder if a federally mandated back-to-school (Vax to School) campaign would help? If your community vaccination rate (of vaccine eligible citizens) is above 80%, you may open schools in the fall  (with masking) but if it’s lower than that, you should continue with virtual teaching until the community will is there to protect that age group. 

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1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

I wonder if a federally mandated back-to-school (Vax to School) campaign would help? If your community vaccination rate (of vaccine eligible citizens) is above 80%, you may open schools in the fall  (with masking) but if it’s lower than that, you should continue with virtual teaching until the community will is there to protect that age group. 

No, I believe that keeping kids home is more detrimental in general.  I'm fine with offering a virtual option for people not willing to face Delta.  I'm also fine with requiring masks in classes/schools that generally include kids under age 12.

In my kids' high school, which is grades 8-12, I don't think they need a mask mandate at this point.  But if they decide to mandate masks, we'll deal with it, just like we did last year.  IMO staying home another year is not a sane option for the general school population.

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54 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

 

Your numbers would make me really, really happy. My county is at 450 per 100k with a 25% positivity rate.

Going back to in-person classes in a few weeks. At least my school just instituted a new mask mandate, am very relieved about that.

Edited by regentrude
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1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I wonder if a federally mandated back-to-school (Vax to School) campaign would help? If your community vaccination rate (of vaccine eligible citizens) is above 80%, you may open schools in the fall  (with masking) but if it’s lower than that, you should continue with virtual teaching until the community will is there to protect that age group. 

Except our town couldn’t ever do virtual because a large contingency doesnt have internet. They sent home packets and they turned them in the next week.  Our abysmal scores got even worse.  75 percent of Spanish speaking kids did not pass standardized tests.  We need them in the classroom. We need them immunized. We need everyone masked.  Some, but not all are undocumented  

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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Your numbers would make me really, really happy. My county is at 450 per 100k with a 25% positivity rate.

Going back to in-person classes in a few weeks. At least my school just instituted a new mask mandate, am very relieved about that.

Well, today we are up to 34 per 100, 000 and 65 per 100,000 .  In one day it went up do much. No masks and less tga 1/3 vaccinated 

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On 7/27/2021 at 7:28 PM, Plum said:

Good to see it’s not just me.
Matt Taibbi’s email today: 

The Vaccine Aristocrats

Covid-19 cases are rising, but the "Pandemic of the Unvaccinated" blame-game campaign is the worst way to address the problem

Then there was the educated Texan from Texas who looked like someone in Technicolor and felt, patriotically, that people of means – decent folk – should be given more votes than drifters, whores, criminals, degenerates, atheists and indecent folk – people without means. 

— Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

I’m vaccinated. I think people should be vaccinated. But this latest moral mania — and make no mistake about it, the “pandemic of the unvaccinated” PR campaign is the latest in a ceaseless series of such manias, dating back to late 2016 — lays bare everything that’s abhorrent and nonsensical in modern American politics, beginning with the no-longer-disguised aristocratic mien of the Washington consensus. If you want to convince people to get a vaccine, pretty much the worst way to go about it is a massive blame campaign, delivered by sneering bluenoses who have a richly deserved credibility problem with large chunks of the population, and now insist they’re owed financially besides. 

There’s always been a contingent in American society that believes people who pay more taxes should get more say, or “more votes,” as Joseph Heller’s hilarious Texan put it. It’s a conceit that cut across party.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-vaccine-aristocrats-b5d

This article is posted on real clear politics now.

https://nypost.com/2021/07/28/smug-dems-have-only-selves-to-blame-for-vaccine-hesitancy/

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I am 100% behind general health protocols to help boost immunity. I actually didn’t have to tweak anything for Covid because I was already taking vitamin D, zinc, magnesium, K, Quercetin…. (plus other things more specific to my issues).  But I do want to be clear yet again (because I can’t keep track of which thread has which of my posts) that vitamin protocols don’t operate like an actual vaccine and don’t provide the same protection.

I don’t know if anyone has done so on this thread but it makes me sad and frustrated when people say or imply that those general health protocols are enough. I think that puts people at risk. 

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2 hours ago, regentrude said:

Your numbers would make me really, really happy. My county is at 450 per 100k with a 25% positivity rate.

Going back to in-person classes in a few weeks. At least my school just instituted a new mask mandate, am very relieved about that.

Gosh. I am so sorry.

This entire pandemic has made me LOVE Maryland so much, even with our ridiculous taxes and cost of living. I just read yesterday that Maryland was at 70% adults vaxxed (might have been at least one shot at the time, not fully) by Memorial Day. By mid-June 90% of all seniors were vaccinated. I’m glad I live where more people than not are accepting the vaccine, and it jibes with my experiences with masking compliance since last April. 

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1 hour ago, Fritz said:

Now that I can read the whole editorial, I find myself agreeing with some parts and disagreeing with other parts. Like any editorial, the author very much cherry picks to support his points. He leaves out any blame for the whole swath of well-educated elite leaders and others on the right who benefit, whether politically or financially, from perpetuating lies, misinformation, and conspiracy theories and so daily are exploiting people.


He ignores the fact that rural, red, less educated and populated areas of the country actually have outsized political influence when it comes to the electoral college and the Senate among others. So it’s not just that highly populated affluent blue areas of the country collect more of the taxes that benefit relatively poorer, more rural, red areas, their votes also don’t count as much in some areas. 
 

And he makes no mention of all of the work of local public health officials and healthcare workers who are doing their utmost to meet and serve people where they are and give factual information and not blame or shame, despite often intense backlash and lack of support from some leaders and citizens. Again, he places no blame on R leaders who in some cases are very much undermining their work and stoking much of the hostility they face.

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Vaccines are not always easy to get in my area.

Scheduled appointments for vaccination are being canceled, on the day of the appointment, as clinic hours are being changed and shortened on a weekly basis. No prior notice. You may show up and the clinic is not there.

I understand changing to meet demand, but this is excessive. They shouldn’t allow appointments in the system further out than they are willing to commit to. You can’t make an appointment anymore and expect it to be  there when you go. Makes asking for time off work around the times vaccines are available more difficult. 
 

 

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3 hours ago, regentrude said:

Your numbers would make me really, really happy. My county is at 450 per 100k with a 25% positivity rate.

Going back to in-person classes in a few weeks. At least my school just instituted a new mask mandate, am very relieved about that.

Same here almost eAugust. Our ICU is at capacity to   The state is requiring  schools  to mask at least and we don't start until the end of August. Locally no one cares.

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I just saw Florida is having hospital overwhelm and having to cancel elective procedures 😞

AdventHealth reports highest hospitalized COVID patients since January; elevates to black status

“The elevation in status means that all hospital-based outpatient procedures will be deferred and outpatient surgery sites will only perform time-sensitive and urgent procedures. Urgent pediatric procedures can be performed with the approval of the chief medical officer.

“Cases continue to rise sharply with no sign that the surge is beginning to decelerate,” said Dr. Neil Finkler, chief clinical officer of AdventHealth’s Central Florida Division. “This important step will help us create more resources for our clinical teams, and ensure that we can continue to care for our community.”

The hospital said they are adjusting their status to make sure they have the capacity for future patients. 

AdventHealth says 94% of patients hospitalized in their system with COVID-19 are unvaccinated.

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5 hours ago, SKL said:

No, I believe that keeping kids home is more detrimental in general.  I'm fine with offering a virtual option for people not willing to face Delta.  I'm also fine with requiring masks in classes/schools that generally include kids under age 12.

In my kids' high school, which is grades 8-12, I don't think they need a mask mandate at this point.  But if they decide to mandate masks, we'll deal with it, just like we did last year.  IMO staying home another year is not a sane option for the general school population.

Which is a reason to get as many adults vaccinated as possible. I agree kids need to get back to school and social events, etc.  I know the schools here seem to be operating on the assumption that vaccination being available is some sort of magic spell that automatically protects everyone, but the numbers say otherwise. My kid's college, where vaccination or documented antibodies due to recent infection or a medical excemption is required, yeah-masks aren't needed. The high school in my city, where less than 50% of adults and only about a third of teens are vaccinated....not so much. 

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2 hours ago, KSera said:

I just saw Florida is having hospital overwhelm and having to cancel elective procedures 😞

AdventHealth reports highest hospitalized COVID patients since January; elevates to black status

“The elevation in status means that all hospital-based outpatient procedures will be deferred and outpatient surgery sites will only perform time-sensitive and urgent procedures. Urgent pediatric procedures can be performed with the approval of the chief medical officer.

“Cases continue to rise sharply with no sign that the surge is beginning to decelerate,” said Dr. Neil Finkler, chief clinical officer of AdventHealth’s Central Florida Division. “This important step will help us create more resources for our clinical teams, and ensure that we can continue to care for our community.”

The hospital said they are adjusting their status to make sure they have the capacity for future patients. 

AdventHealth says 94% of patients hospitalized in their system with COVID-19 are unvaccinated.

According to this site: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization 83% of hospital beds in Florida are in use and 16% of those are covid patients. Does anyone know what % of hospital beds are typically in use? Not trying to downplay this, and it may be a very localized thing, just trying to figure out all the facts. 

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55 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

According to this site: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization 83% of hospital beds in Florida are in use and 16% of those are covid patients. Does anyone know what % of hospital beds are typically in use? Not trying to downplay this, and it may be a very localized thing, just trying to figure out all the facts. 

I don't know, but the people I know that work in the hospital system say that it is as bad as it has been - it's really really bad. 

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1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

According to this site: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization 83% of hospital beds in Florida are in use and 16% of those are covid patients. Does anyone know what % of hospital beds are typically in use? Not trying to downplay this, and it may be a very localized thing, just trying to figure out all the facts. 

My husband works for the big hospital system here, so I've had some access to things like ICU utilization % throughout the pandemic, and it's always been 95% full.  Now, we service a huge area, but even when there were no covid patients in the hospital, the ICU was pretty full.  It's not profitable for ICU spaces to sit empty.  This has always made us look kinda bad on the covid act now stats, because it is a big ding in local numbers.  

That said, numbers are rising precipitously.  

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1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

According to this site: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization 83% of hospital beds in Florida are in use and 16% of those are covid patients. Does anyone know what % of hospital beds are typically in use? Not trying to downplay this, and it may be a very localized thing, just trying to figure out all the facts. 

The percentage  of beds typically in use varies by geographical area and then by hospital as the info gets more granular. There’s not really one answer to that question that can be applied across the board. 

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1 hour ago, Terabith said:

My husband works for the big hospital system here, so I've had some access to things like ICU utilization % throughout the pandemic, and it's always been 95% full.  Now, we service a huge area, but even when there were no covid patients in the hospital, the ICU was pretty full.  It's not profitable for ICU spaces to sit empty.  This has always made us look kinda bad on the covid act now stats, because it is a big ding in local numbers.  

That said, numbers are rising precipitously.  

This is our area too - our urban ICUs always look full.  But I am connected on social media with a number of people working in those facilities and you can always tell when it's getting bad and they really have to start shuffling things around.  Our area is rising, but not awful yet.  Anyway, numbers not super meaningful.

I also think numbers can be misleading at rural hospitals too.  Like they transfer anyone that needs more than basic care for a couple days to the urban hospitals for higher levels of care.  And then those rural populations think their health care is fine and dandy and unaffected.  Where in the urban area, scheduled surgeries, etc start getting bumped.  We have had our urban hospitals primarily full of transferred from more than an hour covid patients a number of times.

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3 hours ago, whitestavern said:

According to this site: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization 83% of hospital beds in Florida are in use and 16% of those are covid patients. Does anyone know what % of hospital beds are typically in use? Not trying to downplay this, and it may be a very localized thing, just trying to figure out all the facts. 

Illinois' metric is they want 20% ICU space available for COVID surges. That was one metric they tracked during the phases. 

http://dph.illinois.gov/statewidemetrics

Illinois could move back to the bridge phase or Phase 4, if over 10 days the trend of new cases increases and at least one of the following is true: hospital ICU availability is below 20%, there is a significant increase in COVID-19 hospitalizations, or total COVID-19 patients in the hospital. New evidence concerning variants, vaccine effectiveness, or waning immunity could substantially and quickly increase COVID-19 hospitalizations and will be taken into consideration, in addition to the metrics being monitored.

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An incredibly sad story about a father of four in Utah fighting for life in the ICU. His wife is feeling incredible guilt because she originally planned for them to get the vaccine when their neighbor, a physician, did but was a bit worried, so started researching and fell down the rabbit hole of misinformation and conspiracy theories. The article talks about some patients and family members in similar situations being willing to record Scared Straight stories in the hopes they will be able to reach those who haven’t been persuaded by national or local vaccine campaigns and outreach.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/us/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-regret.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

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Similar AP story about a 31 yr old man hospitalized in Missouri, who was told he had a 20% chance of survival and might want to tell his wife and 6 yr old son goodbye. This guy literally said “I was strongly against getting the vaccine, just because we’re a strong conservative family” — a strong conservative family that now includes 10 members who have covid. So far he's hanging in there, but the doctor said this is basically the point where he'll either get better or much worse. It's just so incredibly stupid and pointless.

https://apnews.com/article/health-coronavirus-pandemic-michael-brown-038c02dbc512e00b9e08aef98061b13d

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15 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

This is our area too - our urban ICUs always look full.  But I am connected on social media with a number of people working in those facilities and you can always tell when it's getting bad and they really have to start shuffling things around.  Our area is rising, but not awful yet.  Anyway, numbers not super meaningful.

I also think numbers can be misleading at rural hospitals too.  Like they transfer anyone that needs more than basic care for a couple days to the urban hospitals for higher levels of care.  And then those rural populations think their health care is fine and dandy and unaffected.  Where in the urban area, scheduled surgeries, etc start getting bumped.  We have had our urban hospitals primarily full of transferred from more than an hour covid patients a number of times.

That's it exactly. If you look at some of the COVID impact maps for my state, there are counties an hour plus away from big cities that look pretty good. But it's because the big hospitals are in the cities, and often the counties closest have branches of those systems, but when you get that next county past, almost everything that requires a hospital stay is transferred. So, they might have 12 beds and 7 are full, while the big city has multiple hospitals and only a handful are empty. 

 

 

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I was looking at the weekly report that Florida finally released (comes out on friday mornings usually...as of 6pm yesterday it wasn't out). I had not taken my ADHD meds yet. I got very happy looking at cases compared to vaccination rates....until I realized I was looking at it wrong. Vaccinations are not going up, that's cases. Oops. 

Sigh. 

 

Screen Shot 2021-07-31 at 10.54.15 AM.png

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23 hours ago, Plum said:

Yeah when I say we need OTC treatments for covid, I'm not referring to vitamins and supplements. I mean actual medications. We did the NAC and vitamin thing all throughout. They didn't hurt and possibly did some good but they also didn't help with symptoms. 

 

Were you able to get any early treatment with  “actual medications” - even if not OTC?

 

I too would like many of the medications being used by early treatment teams in various parts of world to be available otc - and for medicines  like Ivm (etc) to cost only pennies per dose- similar to what the cost is in many “third world” countries where they are OTC.  People irl who I know have used the types of medicines on AAPS and FLCCC etc protocols have said their symptoms did respond very noticeably and subjectively without a question much like a pain symptom responding obviously to aspirin. 
 

I am not sure if OTC  can be applied to the more complicated and new -mabs and antibody cocktails, but it surely could for a number of old medicines. 
 

in fact, I have heard that state governors could quickly make such medicines OTC if they chose. I do not know if that’s true. It seems worth writing letters to governors . 

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A great story about public health officials working with local leaders to help take vaccines to neighborhoods where transportation and other issues might be a barrier. The only downer in the story is some pastors declaring the vaccine evil and not cooperating.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2021/07/innovative-program-in-denver-dives-deep-into-unvaccinated-neighborhoods.html

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30 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Were you able to get any early treatment with  “actual medications” - even if not OTC?

 

I too would like many of the medications being used by early treatment teams in various parts of world to be available otc - and for medicines  like Ivm (etc) to cost only pennies per dose- similar to what the cost is in many “third world” countries where they are OTC.  People irl who I know have used the types of medicines on AAPS and FLCCC etc protocols have said their symptoms did respond very noticeably and subjectively without a question much like a pain symptom responding obviously to aspirin. 
 

I am not sure if OTC  can be applied to the more complicated and new -mabs and antibody cocktails, but it surely could for a number of old medicines. 
 

in fact, I have heard that state governors could quickly make such medicines OTC if they chose. I do not know if that’s true. It seems worth writing letters to governors . 

Pennies for medications that have repeatedly been proven not to work is a false economy. 

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This article was written by a physician who works for DaVita (one of the two large dialysis providers in the USA) about their success with vaccinating their patients. The dialysis industry worked with CMS to obtain direct access to vaccines so dialysis patients could be vaccinated in their dialysis clinics. 

Quote

According to the CDC, confidence in the vaccine administrator improves overall vaccine confidence. We largely attribute the high COVID-19 vaccination rate among DaVita patients to direct and convenient access to the vaccine at trusted sites of care. DaVita patients received comprehensive education about COVID-19 and the vaccine from trusted caregivers. In most cases, dialogue occurred within an established patient-provider relationship. We believe the existing rapport with each patient helped reduce barriers, making it possible to discuss common causes of hesitancy. Direct in-center education was combined with telephonic follow-up outreach and access to multimedia educational materials.

Quote

Giving patients access to the vaccine in their familiar site of care eliminated the burden of navigating appointments and the risk of traveling to third-party vaccination sites. Dialysis centers are well prepared to administer COVID-19 vaccines because centers routinely provide influenza, pneumonia and hepatitis vaccines. Patients also were able to receive the vaccine during their dialysis appointments, saving time and ensuring post-vaccination monitoring.

Access to vaccines, education from providers helped overcome hesitancy among our patients

 

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47 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Were you able to get any early treatment with  “actual medications” - even if not OTC?

 

I too would like many of the medications being used by early treatment teams in various parts of world to be available otc - and for medicines  like Ivm (etc) to cost only pennies per dose- similar to what the cost is in many “third world” countries where they are OTC.  People irl who I know have used the types of medicines on AAPS and FLCCC etc protocols have said their symptoms did respond very noticeably and subjectively without a question much like a pain symptom responding obviously to aspirin. 
 

I am not sure if OTC  can be applied to the more complicated and new -mabs and antibody cocktails, but it surely could for a number of old medicines. 
 

in fact, I have heard that state governors could quickly make such medicines OTC if they chose. I do not know if that’s true. It seems worth writing letters to governors . 

Here is a lengthy paper by the CATO Institute, a libertarian think tank funded by the Koch brothers, advocating for many more drugs to be OTC. Nothing in it indicates governors can make prescription drugs OTC, quickly or otherwise. State legislators can change who can prescribe drugs, so can make it much easier for people to get drugs, such as pharmacists prescribing and filling an oral contraceptive request. At the extreme, a legislature could theoretically make every person a prescriber.

https://www.cato.org/white-paper/drug-reformation-end-governments-power-require-prescriptions

It also discuses how off label use of drugs is very common.

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13 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Pennies for medications that have repeatedly been proven not to work is a false economy. 


My information is very different than yours on the “proven not to work” — both as to studies and people known personally 

If by “work” you mean “magic bullet” 100% efficacy?  - then no, certainly not. But nether are the expensive treatments and vaccines 100%

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The most common medications I've heard used for COVID are antibiotics to reduce the possibility of secondary infections and steroids. Neither should be available OTC-steroids have significant effects which means they shouldn't be used lightly, and antibiotic overuse contributes to resistant bacteria. 

 

My team did increase my protocol on almost everything, but the purpose was to keep existing conditions under control during stress, so that when/if I was exposed, my immune system and body would have the best chance of fighting it off and I'd have a higher chance of survival, but it was made clear that this would not prevent COVID, and while many of those meds (or closely related ones) are available at lower doses OTC, I don't think taking  non-prescription doses of Zyrtec, Flonase, Pepcid, aspirin or Mucinex is likely to do much for COVID. And I really don't think that attempting to get everyone's TSH down to zero would help any!  

 

 

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Just now, Pen said:


My information is very different than yours on the “proven not to work” — both as to studies and people known personally 

If by “work” you mean “magic bullet” 100% efficacy?  - then no, certainly not. But nether are the expensive treatments and vaccines 100%

For an individual in a non-controlled study there is simply no way to know if it actually worked, is a placebo effect, or they were getting better anyway and the drug had no effect. They are just anecdotes, not data that proves anything one way or another. 

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16 minutes ago, Pen said:


My information is very different than yours on the “proven not to work” — both as to studies and people known personally 

If by “work” you mean “magic bullet” 100% efficacy?  - then no, certainly not. But nether are the expensive treatments and vaccines 100%

Seeing as  you've posted things here from very questionable sites, that is the understatement of the year. . .

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

The majority of Americans support vaccine mandates, including 70% who favor vax requirements to board a plane.

 

Screen Shot 2021-07-31 at 8.18.33 AM.png

I'm skeptical about this being a representative survey.  I looked at the article and apparently it was an "online" survey, which necessarily skews the results.  It is especially questionable given that some of the groups have a higher ratio of "this should be mandated" than that demographic's actual vaccination rate.

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34 minutes ago, SKL said:

I'm skeptical about this being a representative survey.  I looked at the article and apparently it was an "online" survey, which necessarily skews the results.  It is especially questionable given that some of the groups have a higher ratio of "this should be mandated" than that demographic's actual vaccination rate.

I don’t know enough about the study to judge it one way or another, but one explanation for what you noted is that I’m guessing people who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons would very much like everyone else who can to be vaccinated.

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On 7/30/2021 at 11:12 AM, Fritz said:

Not directly related to vaccines so much as free speech. Although I have seen the thought that if you are not vaccinated you should not be allowed to do xyz or go xyz or buy xyz on this board. Same idea.

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/get-ready-for-the-no-buy-list

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A lengthy article about those not vaccinated. They generally fall into one of two categories, “the wait and see” and “adamantly opposed”. As other have observed in their own states, the latter group is disproportionally white, rural, evangelical, and politically conservative. The former group is more diverse but leans young, urban, Democrat, Hispanic, and Black. The adamantly opposed group is larger and potentially makes up as much as 20% of the adult population.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-americans.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

I think this explains lots of the talking past each other when it comes to reasons why people aren’t vaccinated and if the messengers and message are to blame or not and what might work or not work to increase uptake.

Edited by Frances
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42 minutes ago, Plum said:

Most treatments, MAB and any others are for high risk categories. We found ourselves not qualifying for any of that. He wasn’t prescribed anything other than acetaminophen, which I had on hand and a cough med which he didn’t need or take. 

...

There needs to be better communication about what to do and what treatment options you have if you have covid

(and also re @Plum's post on Monoclonal Antibody Therapy, I just can't quote it for some reason)

I know that locally the officials are trying to balance:

  •  getting word out about vaccination options (types, locations, no appt, at home options)
  • the importance/effectiveness of still masking despite no mandate
  • the importance of testing for any symptoms (and how easy it is to do and where)
  • what to do if you get Covid (stay home, isolate, watch for these signs, who to contact, when to hospitalize, at home care recs)
  • to ask for monoclonal treatments if they are available and if they'd help you

The majority of their messaging has to be centered around preventing more spread primarily because that's going to do the most good for the community and what also is going to be relevant to most of the community.  They are already having problems getting people to listen in the first place so the secondary and tertiary messages tend to go unnoticed even when they are trying. 

Also, you don't want to give the impression that "Oh, if you get Covid, just ask for this treatment, you'll be fine" or "it'll cure you" or "it's no longer a big deal" or "follow these simple steps and you will recover" etc. This can backfire in so many ways; people may stop taking preventative measures, and also loss of public trust when the treatment doesn't magically fix things, among others. So letting people know of treatment options, but where it has a net positive effect, seems to be a hard line to walk for officials.

I agree they need to communicate as well as possible, but it's harder when it falls on [selectively] deaf ears.

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7 hours ago, Fritz said:

Not directly related to vaccines so much as free speech. Although I have seen the thought that if you are not vaccinated you should not be allowed to do xyz or go xyz or buy xyz on this board. Same idea.

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/get-ready-for-the-no-buy-list

It sure would be nice if those so concerned about free speech and censorship would at least demand their leaders tell the truth and not spread lies, misinformation, and conspiracy theories, especially about such important things as elections, attacks on our Capitol, and covid, because it plays well with their base. If you really care about free speech, why would you continue to vote for people at the highest level who continually abuse it, make a mockery of it,  exploit people with it, and use it only for their own gain? And blast members of their own party who actually stand up and do the right thing and tell the truth?

Edited to add that I’m very thankful the Republican legislators in my state did have the courage to pushback against the extremists leading the state Republican Party and issued a statement disagreeing with the state party’s lies about the “stolen election” and the Capitol riot, introduced and passed legislation disallowing elected representatives to hold office in the state party (so as to distance themselves from extremists and liars) and voted unanimously to expel one of their own from the legislature who made an advance plan with rioters and then let them into the locked down state Capitol. And of course lied about it.

Edited by Frances
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25 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Not directly related to vaccines so much as free speech. Although I have seen the thought that if you are not vaccinated you should not be allowed to do xyz or go xyz or buy xyz on this board. Same idea.

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/get-ready-for-the-no-buy-list

Really hard to have free speech if you are severely ill, chronically ill, or dead. 
 

Just get the vaccine. Then you can run your mouth as much as you want. 

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8 minutes ago, Plum said:

Taking temps at the door was security theater.

Why? Of course it would not have prevented entry by an asymptomatic person, but if you can catch people who are actually running a fever, why is that bad?
I see this as one of the many layers of protection. Does not replace masking, does not replace distancing, but adds one more layer to the swiss cheese the whole protection thing is. 

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11 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Why? Of course it would not have prevented entry by an asymptomatic person, but if you can catch people who are actually running a fever, why is that bad?
I see this as one of the many layers of protection. Does not replace masking, does not replace distancing, but adds one more layer to the swiss cheese the whole protection thing is. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-temperature-scans-are-useless-security-theater-2020-8

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/08/paging-dr-hamblin-temperature-checks-coronavirus/615190/

 

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1 hour ago, Plum said:

Most treatments, MAB and any others are for high risk categories. We found ourselves not qualifying for any of that. He wasn’t prescribed anything other than acetaminophen, which I had on hand and a cough med which he didn’t need or take. 
 

He was in perfect health precovid and hadn’t seen his PCP since changing plans.
 

 

I had my own was in perfect health ... and then something happened and I was not many years ago. It’s a hard journey.  And often a lonely one. I am glad he has you. 
 

1 hour ago, Plum said:

 

The best OTC home remedy was baking soda water for acid reflux when he got his GI wave. The employee health nurse advised him to do that. Everything else was DIY OTC supplements. Now this was July 2020 and I would hope that things have changed.
 

 

my sense is that unless one seeks out a particular rare doctor doing differently or by unusual chance happen to live by a medical center with a team taking a different approach that it has not changed ...  though if anyone would have had more options I would have thought someone working at an admin type level in a hospital type job might

 

1 hour ago, Plum said:

One of his coworkers was able to get MAB through the standalone ERs when they were doing them. Last I read, they don’t do that anymore because they weren’t as effective against the variants. 

 

that’s unfortunate 

 

1 hour ago, Plum said:


Long covid and the vaccine reaction are in his official records now.
 

I am not actually at all sure of anything clearly helping people for long term vaccine reaction problems 

the people I know with that were obviously mainstream in their approach to get vax in first place and seem to be using whatever mainstream offers for treatment for whatever has happened to them 

I have heard some suggestions about unorthodox methods for trying to treat post vaccine issues, but if I had gotten to point of being significantly improved like you describe for your dh — such as had been in pain almost constantly and then was not anymore, I would be very wary of trying them!

Also some may be for much earlier stage like when there’s active whatever in the system, which may or may not be the case months later. Later it may be a matter of dealing with actual damage (neurological or circulatory or whatever ) that remains.  Idk. 

 I am not aware of Ivm being likely to work for vaccine injury aspect of problems at all.

However it is part of some synergistic protocols being tried like I-Recover for long-haul. And I have found it useful for long haul Lyme CFS/ME  AI type issues...   (though like you describe with your dh being improved and not in pain 24/7 yet still not able to work, it is sort of like that IME - lessening of some symptoms, but not to ‘yay I’m all better/ well’ stage ) .  
 

I think possibly the Bruce Patterson team has a lot on dealing with long Covid — but I’m not sure if anything for if it was complicated by vaccine/vaccine reaction.  
 

If I happen to hear some thing on that double whammy combo I’ll try to let you know if you want. 

 

1 hour ago, Plum said:

It’s only taken 6 months. We’ve figured out more about his symptoms and been able to mitigate his pain down to zero all on our own. It means he can’t work but at least he’s not in pain 24/7. 
 

im glad he’s not in pain 24/7 too! 

1 hour ago, Plum said:

We did look into IVM and FLCCC protocol because we are desperate. None of the meds they had him trying worked and the side effects had him sleeping 18 hours a day. IVM seemed tame comparatively. We asked the Director of Pharmacy about it. He said there were hospitals, including the one tied to the CDC here, using it on severe cases but they stopped when Remdesivir came along. There are still doctors that are prescribing it for outpatients. I’d like to see what the PRINCIPLE study turns up.


I prefer to deal with smaller studies done by people I consider moral, and without big $$$ interests involved.

When I looked at Principle it looked off in the way it was set up, I can’t recall details— not iirc as obvious as when toxic doses of some older medicines were being employed in some studies. 
 

1 hour ago, Plum said:

For now his doctor has him on another med that don’t have the side effects but also aren’t doing anything. And my troubleshooter Dh only wants to take one med at a time. 
 

which is good for being able to monitor effects, especially negative side effects

but possibly not helpful if good results require synergy between several substances / several approaches 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Plum said:

According to this:

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/management/clinical-management/nonhospitalized-adults--therapeutic-management/

  • The Panel recommends against the use of antibacterial therapy (e.g., azithromycin, doxycycline) for outpatient treatment of COVID-19 in the absence of another indication (AIII).
  • Other agents have undergone or are currently undergoing investigation in the outpatient setting. For more information, please refer to the sections of the Guidelines that address:

Maybe with Delta having cold like symptoms more OTC cold medicines will help. His never went respiratory so Mucinex and others I had on hand weren’t used. None of us had any symptoms or even know if we were positive, though it’s hard to believe we weren’t. 
 

 

It is possible you weren’t.

I know families that had one person confirmed sick where everyone else stayed well even without having sick person isolated

or bigger families with 3 who got sick and 8 who stayed well .. 

others may have good innate immunity or old T cell immunity or memory B cell immunity in place from past infections, enough to stay well

 

1 hour ago, Plum said:

There needs to be better communication about what to do and what treatment options you have if you have covid. We considered ourselves fairly knowledgeable at the time.
 

I agree. 
 

For myself and loved ones I downloaded some of the protocols in advance. I mean the alternative protocols, not conventional cdc / nih . I am not saying this to argue with persons on this forum, merely stating factually that I did that. 

 

I noticed too that when someone is actually sick some panic sets in for some (many) people and makes it hard to carefully look at and follow the protocols even if they are available , so that having a friend or relative with the information, but who would not be in a panic can be helpful too

 

1 hour ago, Plum said:

He was in the covid logistics committee and created the hospitals surge plan.
 

that’s interesting!

But hospital surge plan is probably a lot different than researching anything to do with early home care, long Covid, or vaccine issues / options - especially perhaps “alternatives” type options

 

1 hour ago, Plum said:

But testing positive puts people in panic mode.
 

just what I wrote I had noticed!

 

1 hour ago, Plum said:

The last thing anyone wants to do is search through all of the websites looking for what to do. That’s a recipe for finding bad information. 


yes.
 

And then too, what one human being considers “good” information, another person will consider “bad” information.  
 

😉Certainly what I consider “good” information the majority still participating  on Wtm consider “bad” information.   😉
 

It can help a lot to have time to go over things when not in a panic.  
 

I think you probably are not the only ones on WTM dealing with post vaccine issues, but I suspect that it has become too unfriendly a place for others who I think also are dealing with issues to post here.
 

You might look for if you can find forums that have more people dealing with similar problems- though unfortunately I think many if on typical places like fb have been purged.  Maybe your dh would get well enough to start such a forum. It seems there is a real need for that. 

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23 minutes ago, Plum said:

I get what you are saying, but it sounds like we're not going to worry so much about ensuring people don't end up in the hospital (and there are vaccinated people in the hospital) through outpatient treatments....because optics. The hospitals are completely overwhelmed, exhausted and severely understaffed. Everything we can do to avoid that should be a priority, the vaccine shouldn't be the only way. 

Optics over science is just as bad as misinformation. Taking temps at the door was security theater. Stuff like that loses public trust as well.

I have never in my life thought a cold medicine would cure me. It is just supposed to suppress symptoms. 

Taking temps at the door was something done very early in the pandemic.  It was "one thing" we could do when there wasn't much we could do at that time.  But it was never the best thing we could do.  The biggest thing we could do back then was masking when out but see how much pushback and even violence there was about that.  I have not had my temp taken in a number of months here.  But we are a high vaccinated area and so the population went for a much higher security thing - vaccines. 

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2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Taking temps at the door was something done very early in the pandemic.  It was "one thing" we could do when there wasn't much we could do at that time.  ... I have not had my temp taken in a number of months here.  

Here they are only doing it in medical settings. My dentist still does. I appreciate it.

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1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Really hard to have free speech if you are severely ill, chronically ill, or dead. 
 

Just get the vaccine. Then you can run your mouth as much as you want. 

It must really be amazing to be so cock sure you know everyone's situation and what they should do regarding vaccine.

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this article was so upsetting....https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/us/coronavirus-florida-hospitals.html

But these days inside the Covid I.C.U., almost everything is worse.

The week before, Ms. Zacharski’s team had lost a 24-year-old mother whose entire family had contracted the coronavirus. The woman, like every other patient in the Covid I.C.U., had been unvaccinated.

and 

Jackson has also admitted some vaccinated people, but almost all have been transplant patients with compromised immune systems. During last week’s visit by a reporter and photographer from The New York Times, none were in the I.C.U.

 
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39 year old father of 5 texts "Oh my [expletive] God. This is terrible. I should have gotten the damn vaccine,” before dying of covid.

His fiancee said "We were just holding off and now to think that if we just had gotten the shot ... he could still be here. He is only 39. Our babies now don’t have a dad." 

I don't know how people sleep at night knowing their lies and disinformation are killing people and destroying families.

https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/i-should-have-gotten-the-damn-vaccine-las-vegas-father-of-5-dies-after-contracting-covid-19-in-socal/

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