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The “vaccination divide” in the US


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2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

There is currently a push in large systems like Kaiser to develop best practices for conditions. Standardizing treatment in a way. It is cookie cutter but patients tend to do better because it's more evidence based. 

Kaiser, in general, has good outcomes. Where a cookie cutter approach falls apart is for conditions that are truly unusual but that isn't what most of us have.

 

I can see in theory this may be true, but it hasn't been that way in practice in my experience. In the medical specialty I was trained in, they had a bad reputation because it was very much recipe medicine, where someone comes in with abc, so you give them a handout on xyz, which is quicker and cheaper than doing qrs, which is actually more effective and also promotes better patient satisfaction with outcome. I'm further colored by my parents' experience with them, and while they are very happy because it's all they've known for fifty+ years, my siblings and I bang our heads against the wall because their care is substandard compared to what the rest of us experience with our own doctors and their doctors miss things and they now have lasting negative health consequences as a result, not to mention it takes so much for them to be able to see a specialist, with their primary acting as gate keeper. I realize this is a more cost effective way to provide medical care, but it's not had good outcomes from where we stand.

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Our main wellness provider did not recommend the vax nor masking.  They encourage general pro-immune-system lifestyle choices.

I doubt they are the only wellness provider in that boat.

Things may have changed now that the vaxes have been essentially tested on the majority of the adult US population.  But I still doubt that 100% of healthcare professionals recommend the vax to everyone with doubts about it.

A chiropractor is not trained to be a primary health care provider. I know some like to bill themselves that way and sell their services that way, but if you compare their education to an MD (or nurse practitioner, or PA, or other PCP), you'll see it's not anywhere comparable. It's just not the focus of their education.

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

Yes. Mine has been tested by several doctors. The new PCP I saw in October tested my D and called me after the results to say it was too low and to advise me how to supplement (and actually recommended the right kinds and amounts).

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3 hours ago, kbutton said:

Being annoyed that everyone gets diet advice that 90% of people need is silly. Being annoyed if you are wrongly targeted for this information is another story; in my world, I see that more with insurance companies. My son takes a blood pressure medication for an aneurysm, but the insurance companies LOVE to send information on how he can lose weight (he's underweight). That's targeted. I hear about people whose insurance company sends BP cuffs and cool stuff, but mine just wants to harp on my about controlling my extremely well-controlled asthma (my rescue inhalers tend to expire, and I don't require a maintenance inhaler). That's targeted. Sending me a list of tests recommended for people my age that might include listing a mammo when I just had one is the office trying to be helpful.

Yeah, I think it was targeted (by their computer) because my kid's weight percentile was slightly higher than her height percentile.  She is v-shaped, muscular, short, and wore tot sized underwear until middle school.  More importantly, she has always struggled to eat enough, so yes, I was annoyed with advice to put her on a diet.

A cursory glance at the actual child would have been nice, especially when the so-called medical care was costing us about $10,000 per year.

So yeah, the last thing I'd do is ask an MD whether we should get the vax.  Sorry.  I already know what they would say, so why pay mega bucks to hear that?

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3 hours ago, kbutton said:

Sometimes professional advice helps contextualize what you read as well. I did a ton of research on something specific that came up with me a few months ago, and my doctor had access to better information that was more up-to-date. Sometimes you need a subscription to read better specialized information. Some of these journals cost exorbitant amounts of money and come out twice per year (I used to work for a scientific publisher and had access when I did). You don't find those on google.

I'm sorry, but someone who won't spend a full 60 seconds looking at my child when I'm paying him to is not going to be trusted to read all the articles about the latest health developments.  It's not like their specialty is Covid or mRNA vaccines.  I'm sure some doctors are interested enough to read, and others are not.  My kids' first pediatrician didn't even seem to know that you don't give the MMR to kids who might be allergic to eggs.  Five minutes of internet research will tell any layman that much.

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There are national expert epidemiologists who are giving perfectly good advice to mask and vaccinate. Most people don’t have contraindications for the Covid vaccine. There are almost no contraindications for masking itself. It’s not that hard to ask a doctor if you specifically might have a contraindication for a vaccine. And honestly most of those who need to ask know to ask because they have immune issues already or clotting issues etc. 

This isn’t that hard- at least in the US. (Friends of mine overseas who have to decide whether to take one of the Chinese vaccines really do have a tough choice. So do the people offered AZ. ). Most of the excuses put up about this in the US are just that- excuses. 

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6 hours ago, Spryte said:

Experiences like yours are why people don’t trust their docs.  That’s a shame.  I hope you find someone better if you ever need one.
 

 

I have had a number of truly appalling interactions with medical doctors over the years.  Even now, I have noticed that I get a different level of concern from a doctor depending on what I list my occupation as or if the doctor is aware of my husband and children’s concern for me.  My mom was basically told that it was her time to die when she was barely 50 by a doctor who didn’t want to bother treating a recurrence of her cancer (with a second opinion, she lived 6 more years with good quality of life, which allowed her to meet 5 more grandkids.) I know that good care is out there and I’ve had it at times but lately I’ve noticed people pish poshing the very real and very shitty experiences that people have had with doctors that lead many people to be skeptical of medical personnel. 

Edited by LucyStoner
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4 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I have had a number of truly appalling interactions with medical doctors over the years.

 

the very real and very shitty experiences that people have had with doctors that lead many people to be skeptical of medical personnel.  

My family and I have had horrible medical care throughout the years.  I had one doctor I loved and trusted, but she retired early and unexpectedly.  We have wasted so much time and money on bad - and even dangerous - medical care.  It's ridiculous and there's no accountability at all - we're still responsible to pay for crappy service.  I don't trust anything any of my doctors tell me - I have to research and second guess everything.  

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Kassia said:

My family and I have had horrible medical care throughout the years.  I had one doctor I loved and trusted, but she retired early and unexpectedly.  We have wasted so much time and money on bad - and even dangerous - medical care.  It's ridiculous and there's no accountability at all - we're still responsible to pay for crappy service.  I don't trust anything any of my doctors tell me - I have to research and second guess everything.  

 

 

Yep. 
 

When I was 32 and concerned about the sexual side effects of my medication a doctor actually told me “well, that’s probably not an important part of your life now”.  I was a 32 year old married woman who was asking about it- it was clearly an important enough thing for me to mention.  That wasn’t a life or death issue but it was a particularly egregious example of sexism IMO.  

That interaction led me to search out an older female doctor I could actually trust to take me seriously.  I was also able to find a medication that didn’t kill my ability to enjoy sex.  Unfortunately, that doctor retired last year and I had to find a new primary doctor.  I dreaded her retirement for years.  

Edited by LucyStoner
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I've never had a doctor I liked and trusted. I feel like they just throw meds at you. I think our health care providers are pretty good at diagnosing things but horrible when it comes to treatments.

OTOH, I love my pediatrician and am so sad my kids have aged out. He would spend an hour plus with you, listened more than he spoke, and wasn't condescending in the least. He was also understanding and respectful about my hesitancy with the chicken pox and Gardisil vaccines.

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2 hours ago, SKL said:

I'm sorry, but someone who won't spend a full 60 seconds looking at my child when I'm paying him to is not going to be trusted to read all the articles about the latest health developments.  It's not like their specialty is Covid or mRNA vaccines.  I'm sure some doctors are interested enough to read, and others are not.  My kids' first pediatrician didn't even seem to know that you don't give the MMR to kids who might be allergic to eggs.  Five minutes of internet research will tell any layman that much.

I didn't say your dismissive doctor would. That doesn't mean another wouldn't. 

I was gaslighted by my doctor for 12 or so years. I found a better one and avoided her in the meantime while using specialists for the most pressing issues.

The fix is not to say that all doctors are untrustworthy with vaccine information. 

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27 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I didn't say your dismissive doctor would. That doesn't mean another wouldn't. 

I was gaslighted by my doctor for 12 or so years. I found a better one and avoided her in the meantime while using specialists for the most pressing issues.

The fix is not to say that all doctors are untrustworthy with vaccine information. 

I didn't say all are untrustworthy.  I was explaining why a lot of people wouldn't even think to ask "their doctor" about the Covid vax.

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Our Gov. just announced that all educators are expected to get the vaccine and if they don't, they must get covid tested every week and bring the results to their supervisors.   I am wondering how this will pan out with some very vocal anti-vax educators in my district.   Could be an interesting year.

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5 hours ago, whitestavern said:

 I think our health care providers are pretty good at diagnosing things but horrible when it comes to treatments.

 

This has not been my experience at all.  My doctors have been HORRIBLE at diagnosing things.  I mean absolutely horrible even when the diagnosis was obvious or even told to them by me.  I had a doctor tell me to take a Tums when I told him I had a total intestinal obstruction - I could have died.  I had another doctor tell me my kids didn't have pertussis just because he didn't hear them cough during their five minute appt.  Another doctor told me to keep my fingers warm when I told him I had trigger finger - then when he did surgery on my hand a few weeks later, he told my husband that my trigger finger was pretty bad.  I was told that I couldn't have broken my tailbone because I could still sit down - but x-ray showed a fracture.  I could go on and on...I had to pay for all these darn appointments, too.  

 

 

5 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

.  Unfortunately, that doctor retired last year and I had to find a new primary doctor.  I dreaded her retirement for years.  

I actually cried when I got the letter that my doctor (she was my gyn, but I wish she had been a PCP) retired.  I thought I'd be going to her for many years and eventually bring my dd to her.  Her retirement was a total surprise.  

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16 hours ago, Frances said:

And I don’t think anyone here has expressed being for mandates for US citizens but against mandates for undocumented immigrants. Are they even currently being offered vaccines and turning them down in droves like citizens are in many  places in the US? If not, then perhaps a good place to start is by actually offering them the vaccines along with consultations with health care professionals who speak their languages.

Undocumented immigrants are being offered free vaccines here.  There are separate, specific campaigns going on, and information available in other languages.  

I know this was way back in the thread, but evidently NJ and TX have almost the same percentage (of population) of undocumented immigrants.  

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13 hours ago, SKL said:

I didn't ask their rationale.  I did my own research and made my own decisions. 

That said, it has always been clear that good health, and especially a good vitamin D level, have highly correlated with better outcomes from Covid.  Of course we can't all just wish or act ourselves into good health.  But to the extent we can make changes, they help.  Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

My kid's cardiologist put her on a vitamin protocol directly due to covid. 

Trying to remember what all: Vitamin D3/Vitamin K2 (pretty sure that's the combo), Magnesium (if i remember correctly, she stated this is a basic mineral that everything else works off of & it helps sleep), Iron & Vitamin C (ferritin was a little low), and maybe zinc (seems to me there's one more). She also "prescribed" 1/2 hour outside, preferably in the sunshine daily, and gave her info on safe (for her syndrome) exercises to do daily. DD was resistant to physical therapy.

Other DD's PCP did Vitamin D testing at her last appointment; she said she wanted to make sure due to covid. DD needed supplementing so she did a run of really strong vitamins, followed by a maintenance dose. 

So, we've had 2 so far recommend "covid general health" changes. 

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35 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

My kid's cardiologist put her on a vitamin protocol directly due to covid. 

Trying to remember what all: Vitamin D3/Vitamin K2 (pretty sure that's the combo), Magnesium (if i remember correctly, she stated this is a basic mineral that everything else works off of & it helps sleep), Iron & Vitamin C (ferritin was a little low), and maybe zinc (seems to me there's one more). She also "prescribed" 1/2 hour outside, preferably in the sunshine daily, and gave her info on safe (for her syndrome) exercises to do daily. DD was resistant to physical therapy.

Other DD's PCP did Vitamin D testing at her last appointment; she said she wanted to make sure due to covid. DD needed supplementing so she did a run of really strong vitamins, followed by a maintenance dose. 

So, we've had 2 so far recommend "covid general health" changes. 

I also have a vitamin protocol, Including D, plus am on a higher than normal protocol of antihistamines and decongestants, with a goal of making my system less hospitable to respiratory infections and keeping my usual background symptoms under control so I'm not constantly coughing, sneezing and wheezing. I got the vaccine as soon as I was available, from a paramedic,at a site with a longer wait period and multiple ambulances ready to go.

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Not sure where to put this, so I will just put this here. Please do not quote.

Cases have gone WAY up over the last week. So far hospitalizations have not, but we will see.  One county is now up to 18 cases per 100,000 and positivity of 16 percent. Other county is 44 per hundred thousand and  positivity of 10 percent, but infection rate is 1.38 percent.  Our youth are currently at youth camp...hundreds of kids unmasked and close together. Tons of pictures being posted. I guess we will see what happens when they return. 

That said, all that I know of so far are having "mild"cases. No one hospitalized. We shall see. Not saying anything because I think I am already viewed as chicken little, but masking. In person school this week, which looked like a good option 3 months ago. Now, not so much. I am double masking but the only one in the room to mask at all. Small room 20 people. No social distancing. Have absolutely no clue about vaccination status on any of them. The county were I am has 18 cases per 100,000 and positivity of 12 percent. So I guess we will see. I get SO much more out of in person classes. Being live doesn't help that much. It is easy to work on other stuff and not engage, which you cannot do when you are in person.  We will see how I fare next week. Probably should have made a different choice, but until this week,  it looked like a reasonable choice.  Of course, when I signed up masks were mandated here. And everyone may be vaccinated. I just do not know.

Thank you for letting me vent.

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I wonder if a federally mandated back-to-school (Vax to School) campaign would help? If your community vaccination rate (of vaccine eligible citizens) is above 80%, you may open schools in the fall  (with masking) but if it’s lower than that, you should continue with virtual teaching until the community will is there to protect that age group. 

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1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

I wonder if a federally mandated back-to-school (Vax to School) campaign would help? If your community vaccination rate (of vaccine eligible citizens) is above 80%, you may open schools in the fall  (with masking) but if it’s lower than that, you should continue with virtual teaching until the community will is there to protect that age group. 

No, I believe that keeping kids home is more detrimental in general.  I'm fine with offering a virtual option for people not willing to face Delta.  I'm also fine with requiring masks in classes/schools that generally include kids under age 12.

In my kids' high school, which is grades 8-12, I don't think they need a mask mandate at this point.  But if they decide to mandate masks, we'll deal with it, just like we did last year.  IMO staying home another year is not a sane option for the general school population.

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54 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

 

Your numbers would make me really, really happy. My county is at 450 per 100k with a 25% positivity rate.

Going back to in-person classes in a few weeks. At least my school just instituted a new mask mandate, am very relieved about that.

Edited by regentrude
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1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I wonder if a federally mandated back-to-school (Vax to School) campaign would help? If your community vaccination rate (of vaccine eligible citizens) is above 80%, you may open schools in the fall  (with masking) but if it’s lower than that, you should continue with virtual teaching until the community will is there to protect that age group. 

Except our town couldn’t ever do virtual because a large contingency doesnt have internet. They sent home packets and they turned them in the next week.  Our abysmal scores got even worse.  75 percent of Spanish speaking kids did not pass standardized tests.  We need them in the classroom. We need them immunized. We need everyone masked.  Some, but not all are undocumented  

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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Your numbers would make me really, really happy. My county is at 450 per 100k with a 25% positivity rate.

Going back to in-person classes in a few weeks. At least my school just instituted a new mask mandate, am very relieved about that.

Well, today we are up to 34 per 100, 000 and 65 per 100,000 .  In one day it went up do much. No masks and less tga 1/3 vaccinated 

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On 7/27/2021 at 7:28 PM, Plum said:

Good to see it’s not just me.
Matt Taibbi’s email today: 

The Vaccine Aristocrats

Covid-19 cases are rising, but the "Pandemic of the Unvaccinated" blame-game campaign is the worst way to address the problem

Then there was the educated Texan from Texas who looked like someone in Technicolor and felt, patriotically, that people of means – decent folk – should be given more votes than drifters, whores, criminals, degenerates, atheists and indecent folk – people without means. 

— Joseph Heller, Catch-22
 

I’m vaccinated. I think people should be vaccinated. But this latest moral mania — and make no mistake about it, the “pandemic of the unvaccinated” PR campaign is the latest in a ceaseless series of such manias, dating back to late 2016 — lays bare everything that’s abhorrent and nonsensical in modern American politics, beginning with the no-longer-disguised aristocratic mien of the Washington consensus. If you want to convince people to get a vaccine, pretty much the worst way to go about it is a massive blame campaign, delivered by sneering bluenoses who have a richly deserved credibility problem with large chunks of the population, and now insist they’re owed financially besides. 

There’s always been a contingent in American society that believes people who pay more taxes should get more say, or “more votes,” as Joseph Heller’s hilarious Texan put it. It’s a conceit that cut across party.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-vaccine-aristocrats-b5d

This article is posted on real clear politics now.

https://nypost.com/2021/07/28/smug-dems-have-only-selves-to-blame-for-vaccine-hesitancy/

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I am 100% behind general health protocols to help boost immunity. I actually didn’t have to tweak anything for Covid because I was already taking vitamin D, zinc, magnesium, K, Quercetin…. (plus other things more specific to my issues).  But I do want to be clear yet again (because I can’t keep track of which thread has which of my posts) that vitamin protocols don’t operate like an actual vaccine and don’t provide the same protection.

I don’t know if anyone has done so on this thread but it makes me sad and frustrated when people say or imply that those general health protocols are enough. I think that puts people at risk. 

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39 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I am 100% behind general health protocols to help boost immunity. I actually didn’t have to tweak anything for Covid because I was already taking vitamin D, zinc, magnesium, K, Quercetin…. (plus other things more specific to my issues).  But I do want to be clear yet again (because I can’t keep track of which thread has which of my posts) that vitamin protocols don’t operate like an actual vaccine and don’t provide the same protection.

I don’t know if anyone has done so on this thread but it makes me sad and frustrated when people say or imply that those general health protocols are enough. I think that puts people at risk. 

Yeah when I say we need OTC treatments for covid, I'm not referring to vitamins and supplements. I mean actual medications. We did the NAC and vitamin thing all throughout. They didn't hurt and possibly did some good but they also didn't help with symptoms. 

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2 hours ago, regentrude said:

Your numbers would make me really, really happy. My county is at 450 per 100k with a 25% positivity rate.

Going back to in-person classes in a few weeks. At least my school just instituted a new mask mandate, am very relieved about that.

Gosh. I am so sorry.

This entire pandemic has made me LOVE Maryland so much, even with our ridiculous taxes and cost of living. I just read yesterday that Maryland was at 70% adults vaxxed (might have been at least one shot at the time, not fully) by Memorial Day. By mid-June 90% of all seniors were vaccinated. I’m glad I live where more people than not are accepting the vaccine, and it jibes with my experiences with masking compliance since last April. 

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1 hour ago, Fritz said:

Now that I can read the whole editorial, I find myself agreeing with some parts and disagreeing with other parts. Like any editorial, the author very much cherry picks to support his points. He leaves out any blame for the whole swath of well-educated elite leaders and others on the right who benefit, whether politically or financially, from perpetuating lies, misinformation, and conspiracy theories and so daily are exploiting people.


He ignores the fact that rural, red, less educated and populated areas of the country actually have outsized political influence when it comes to the electoral college and the Senate among others. So it’s not just that highly populated affluent blue areas of the country collect more of the taxes that benefit relatively poorer, more rural, red areas, their votes also don’t count as much in some areas. 
 

And he makes no mention of all of the work of local public health officials and healthcare workers who are doing their utmost to meet and serve people where they are and give factual information and not blame or shame, despite often intense backlash and lack of support from some leaders and citizens. Again, he places no blame on R leaders who in some cases are very much undermining their work and stoking much of the hostility they face.

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Vaccines are not always easy to get in my area.

Scheduled appointments for vaccination are being canceled, on the day of the appointment, as clinic hours are being changed and shortened on a weekly basis. No prior notice. You may show up and the clinic is not there.

I understand changing to meet demand, but this is excessive. They shouldn’t allow appointments in the system further out than they are willing to commit to. You can’t make an appointment anymore and expect it to be  there when you go. Makes asking for time off work around the times vaccines are available more difficult. 
 

 

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3 hours ago, regentrude said:

Your numbers would make me really, really happy. My county is at 450 per 100k with a 25% positivity rate.

Going back to in-person classes in a few weeks. At least my school just instituted a new mask mandate, am very relieved about that.

Same here almost eAugust. Our ICU is at capacity to   The state is requiring  schools  to mask at least and we don't start until the end of August. Locally no one cares.

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I just saw Florida is having hospital overwhelm and having to cancel elective procedures 😞

AdventHealth reports highest hospitalized COVID patients since January; elevates to black status

“The elevation in status means that all hospital-based outpatient procedures will be deferred and outpatient surgery sites will only perform time-sensitive and urgent procedures. Urgent pediatric procedures can be performed with the approval of the chief medical officer.

“Cases continue to rise sharply with no sign that the surge is beginning to decelerate,” said Dr. Neil Finkler, chief clinical officer of AdventHealth’s Central Florida Division. “This important step will help us create more resources for our clinical teams, and ensure that we can continue to care for our community.”

The hospital said they are adjusting their status to make sure they have the capacity for future patients. 

AdventHealth says 94% of patients hospitalized in their system with COVID-19 are unvaccinated.

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5 hours ago, SKL said:

No, I believe that keeping kids home is more detrimental in general.  I'm fine with offering a virtual option for people not willing to face Delta.  I'm also fine with requiring masks in classes/schools that generally include kids under age 12.

In my kids' high school, which is grades 8-12, I don't think they need a mask mandate at this point.  But if they decide to mandate masks, we'll deal with it, just like we did last year.  IMO staying home another year is not a sane option for the general school population.

Which is a reason to get as many adults vaccinated as possible. I agree kids need to get back to school and social events, etc.  I know the schools here seem to be operating on the assumption that vaccination being available is some sort of magic spell that automatically protects everyone, but the numbers say otherwise. My kid's college, where vaccination or documented antibodies due to recent infection or a medical excemption is required, yeah-masks aren't needed. The high school in my city, where less than 50% of adults and only about a third of teens are vaccinated....not so much. 

Edited by Dmmetler
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2 hours ago, KSera said:

I just saw Florida is having hospital overwhelm and having to cancel elective procedures 😞

AdventHealth reports highest hospitalized COVID patients since January; elevates to black status

“The elevation in status means that all hospital-based outpatient procedures will be deferred and outpatient surgery sites will only perform time-sensitive and urgent procedures. Urgent pediatric procedures can be performed with the approval of the chief medical officer.

“Cases continue to rise sharply with no sign that the surge is beginning to decelerate,” said Dr. Neil Finkler, chief clinical officer of AdventHealth’s Central Florida Division. “This important step will help us create more resources for our clinical teams, and ensure that we can continue to care for our community.”

The hospital said they are adjusting their status to make sure they have the capacity for future patients. 

AdventHealth says 94% of patients hospitalized in their system with COVID-19 are unvaccinated.

According to this site: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization 83% of hospital beds in Florida are in use and 16% of those are covid patients. Does anyone know what % of hospital beds are typically in use? Not trying to downplay this, and it may be a very localized thing, just trying to figure out all the facts. 

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55 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

According to this site: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization 83% of hospital beds in Florida are in use and 16% of those are covid patients. Does anyone know what % of hospital beds are typically in use? Not trying to downplay this, and it may be a very localized thing, just trying to figure out all the facts. 

I don't know, but the people I know that work in the hospital system say that it is as bad as it has been - it's really really bad. 

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1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

According to this site: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization 83% of hospital beds in Florida are in use and 16% of those are covid patients. Does anyone know what % of hospital beds are typically in use? Not trying to downplay this, and it may be a very localized thing, just trying to figure out all the facts. 

My husband works for the big hospital system here, so I've had some access to things like ICU utilization % throughout the pandemic, and it's always been 95% full.  Now, we service a huge area, but even when there were no covid patients in the hospital, the ICU was pretty full.  It's not profitable for ICU spaces to sit empty.  This has always made us look kinda bad on the covid act now stats, because it is a big ding in local numbers.  

That said, numbers are rising precipitously.  

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1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

According to this site: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization 83% of hospital beds in Florida are in use and 16% of those are covid patients. Does anyone know what % of hospital beds are typically in use? Not trying to downplay this, and it may be a very localized thing, just trying to figure out all the facts. 

The percentage  of beds typically in use varies by geographical area and then by hospital as the info gets more granular. There’s not really one answer to that question that can be applied across the board. 

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1 hour ago, Terabith said:

My husband works for the big hospital system here, so I've had some access to things like ICU utilization % throughout the pandemic, and it's always been 95% full.  Now, we service a huge area, but even when there were no covid patients in the hospital, the ICU was pretty full.  It's not profitable for ICU spaces to sit empty.  This has always made us look kinda bad on the covid act now stats, because it is a big ding in local numbers.  

That said, numbers are rising precipitously.  

This is our area too - our urban ICUs always look full.  But I am connected on social media with a number of people working in those facilities and you can always tell when it's getting bad and they really have to start shuffling things around.  Our area is rising, but not awful yet.  Anyway, numbers not super meaningful.

I also think numbers can be misleading at rural hospitals too.  Like they transfer anyone that needs more than basic care for a couple days to the urban hospitals for higher levels of care.  And then those rural populations think their health care is fine and dandy and unaffected.  Where in the urban area, scheduled surgeries, etc start getting bumped.  We have had our urban hospitals primarily full of transferred from more than an hour covid patients a number of times.

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3 hours ago, whitestavern said:

According to this site: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization 83% of hospital beds in Florida are in use and 16% of those are covid patients. Does anyone know what % of hospital beds are typically in use? Not trying to downplay this, and it may be a very localized thing, just trying to figure out all the facts. 

Illinois' metric is they want 20% ICU space available for COVID surges. That was one metric they tracked during the phases. 

http://dph.illinois.gov/statewidemetrics

Illinois could move back to the bridge phase or Phase 4, if over 10 days the trend of new cases increases and at least one of the following is true: hospital ICU availability is below 20%, there is a significant increase in COVID-19 hospitalizations, or total COVID-19 patients in the hospital. New evidence concerning variants, vaccine effectiveness, or waning immunity could substantially and quickly increase COVID-19 hospitalizations and will be taken into consideration, in addition to the metrics being monitored.

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An incredibly sad story about a father of four in Utah fighting for life in the ICU. His wife is feeling incredible guilt because she originally planned for them to get the vaccine when their neighbor, a physician, did but was a bit worried, so started researching and fell down the rabbit hole of misinformation and conspiracy theories. The article talks about some patients and family members in similar situations being willing to record Scared Straight stories in the hopes they will be able to reach those who haven’t been persuaded by national or local vaccine campaigns and outreach.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/us/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-regret.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

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Similar AP story about a 31 yr old man hospitalized in Missouri, who was told he had a 20% chance of survival and might want to tell his wife and 6 yr old son goodbye. This guy literally said “I was strongly against getting the vaccine, just because we’re a strong conservative family” — a strong conservative family that now includes 10 members who have covid. So far he's hanging in there, but the doctor said this is basically the point where he'll either get better or much worse. It's just so incredibly stupid and pointless.

https://apnews.com/article/health-coronavirus-pandemic-michael-brown-038c02dbc512e00b9e08aef98061b13d

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15 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

This is our area too - our urban ICUs always look full.  But I am connected on social media with a number of people working in those facilities and you can always tell when it's getting bad and they really have to start shuffling things around.  Our area is rising, but not awful yet.  Anyway, numbers not super meaningful.

I also think numbers can be misleading at rural hospitals too.  Like they transfer anyone that needs more than basic care for a couple days to the urban hospitals for higher levels of care.  And then those rural populations think their health care is fine and dandy and unaffected.  Where in the urban area, scheduled surgeries, etc start getting bumped.  We have had our urban hospitals primarily full of transferred from more than an hour covid patients a number of times.

That's it exactly. If you look at some of the COVID impact maps for my state, there are counties an hour plus away from big cities that look pretty good. But it's because the big hospitals are in the cities, and often the counties closest have branches of those systems, but when you get that next county past, almost everything that requires a hospital stay is transferred. So, they might have 12 beds and 7 are full, while the big city has multiple hospitals and only a handful are empty. 

 

 

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I was looking at the weekly report that Florida finally released (comes out on friday mornings usually...as of 6pm yesterday it wasn't out). I had not taken my ADHD meds yet. I got very happy looking at cases compared to vaccination rates....until I realized I was looking at it wrong. Vaccinations are not going up, that's cases. Oops. 

Sigh. 

 

Screen Shot 2021-07-31 at 10.54.15 AM.png

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23 hours ago, Plum said:

Yeah when I say we need OTC treatments for covid, I'm not referring to vitamins and supplements. I mean actual medications. We did the NAC and vitamin thing all throughout. They didn't hurt and possibly did some good but they also didn't help with symptoms. 

 

Were you able to get any early treatment with  “actual medications” - even if not OTC?

 

I too would like many of the medications being used by early treatment teams in various parts of world to be available otc - and for medicines  like Ivm (etc) to cost only pennies per dose- similar to what the cost is in many “third world” countries where they are OTC.  People irl who I know have used the types of medicines on AAPS and FLCCC etc protocols have said their symptoms did respond very noticeably and subjectively without a question much like a pain symptom responding obviously to aspirin. 
 

I am not sure if OTC  can be applied to the more complicated and new -mabs and antibody cocktails, but it surely could for a number of old medicines. 
 

in fact, I have heard that state governors could quickly make such medicines OTC if they chose. I do not know if that’s true. It seems worth writing letters to governors . 

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A great story about public health officials working with local leaders to help take vaccines to neighborhoods where transportation and other issues might be a barrier. The only downer in the story is some pastors declaring the vaccine evil and not cooperating.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2021/07/innovative-program-in-denver-dives-deep-into-unvaccinated-neighborhoods.html

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30 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Were you able to get any early treatment with  “actual medications” - even if not OTC?

 

I too would like many of the medications being used by early treatment teams in various parts of world to be available otc - and for medicines  like Ivm (etc) to cost only pennies per dose- similar to what the cost is in many “third world” countries where they are OTC.  People irl who I know have used the types of medicines on AAPS and FLCCC etc protocols have said their symptoms did respond very noticeably and subjectively without a question much like a pain symptom responding obviously to aspirin. 
 

I am not sure if OTC  can be applied to the more complicated and new -mabs and antibody cocktails, but it surely could for a number of old medicines. 
 

in fact, I have heard that state governors could quickly make such medicines OTC if they chose. I do not know if that’s true. It seems worth writing letters to governors . 

Pennies for medications that have repeatedly been proven not to work is a false economy. 

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This article was written by a physician who works for DaVita (one of the two large dialysis providers in the USA) about their success with vaccinating their patients. The dialysis industry worked with CMS to obtain direct access to vaccines so dialysis patients could be vaccinated in their dialysis clinics. 

Quote

According to the CDC, confidence in the vaccine administrator improves overall vaccine confidence. We largely attribute the high COVID-19 vaccination rate among DaVita patients to direct and convenient access to the vaccine at trusted sites of care. DaVita patients received comprehensive education about COVID-19 and the vaccine from trusted caregivers. In most cases, dialogue occurred within an established patient-provider relationship. We believe the existing rapport with each patient helped reduce barriers, making it possible to discuss common causes of hesitancy. Direct in-center education was combined with telephonic follow-up outreach and access to multimedia educational materials.

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Giving patients access to the vaccine in their familiar site of care eliminated the burden of navigating appointments and the risk of traveling to third-party vaccination sites. Dialysis centers are well prepared to administer COVID-19 vaccines because centers routinely provide influenza, pneumonia and hepatitis vaccines. Patients also were able to receive the vaccine during their dialysis appointments, saving time and ensuring post-vaccination monitoring.

Access to vaccines, education from providers helped overcome hesitancy among our patients

 

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47 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Were you able to get any early treatment with  “actual medications” - even if not OTC?

 

I too would like many of the medications being used by early treatment teams in various parts of world to be available otc - and for medicines  like Ivm (etc) to cost only pennies per dose- similar to what the cost is in many “third world” countries where they are OTC.  People irl who I know have used the types of medicines on AAPS and FLCCC etc protocols have said their symptoms did respond very noticeably and subjectively without a question much like a pain symptom responding obviously to aspirin. 
 

I am not sure if OTC  can be applied to the more complicated and new -mabs and antibody cocktails, but it surely could for a number of old medicines. 
 

in fact, I have heard that state governors could quickly make such medicines OTC if they chose. I do not know if that’s true. It seems worth writing letters to governors . 

Here is a lengthy paper by the CATO Institute, a libertarian think tank funded by the Koch brothers, advocating for many more drugs to be OTC. Nothing in it indicates governors can make prescription drugs OTC, quickly or otherwise. State legislators can change who can prescribe drugs, so can make it much easier for people to get drugs, such as pharmacists prescribing and filling an oral contraceptive request. At the extreme, a legislature could theoretically make every person a prescriber.

https://www.cato.org/white-paper/drug-reformation-end-governments-power-require-prescriptions

It also discuses how off label use of drugs is very common.

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13 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Pennies for medications that have repeatedly been proven not to work is a false economy. 


My information is very different than yours on the “proven not to work” — both as to studies and people known personally 

If by “work” you mean “magic bullet” 100% efficacy?  - then no, certainly not. But nether are the expensive treatments and vaccines 100%

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The most common medications I've heard used for COVID are antibiotics to reduce the possibility of secondary infections and steroids. Neither should be available OTC-steroids have significant effects which means they shouldn't be used lightly, and antibiotic overuse contributes to resistant bacteria. 

 

My team did increase my protocol on almost everything, but the purpose was to keep existing conditions under control during stress, so that when/if I was exposed, my immune system and body would have the best chance of fighting it off and I'd have a higher chance of survival, but it was made clear that this would not prevent COVID, and while many of those meds (or closely related ones) are available at lower doses OTC, I don't think taking  non-prescription doses of Zyrtec, Flonase, Pepcid, aspirin or Mucinex is likely to do much for COVID. And I really don't think that attempting to get everyone's TSH down to zero would help any!  

 

 

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Just now, Pen said:


My information is very different than yours on the “proven not to work” — both as to studies and people known personally 

If by “work” you mean “magic bullet” 100% efficacy?  - then no, certainly not. But nether are the expensive treatments and vaccines 100%

For an individual in a non-controlled study there is simply no way to know if it actually worked, is a placebo effect, or they were getting better anyway and the drug had no effect. They are just anecdotes, not data that proves anything one way or another. 

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16 minutes ago, Pen said:


My information is very different than yours on the “proven not to work” — both as to studies and people known personally 

If by “work” you mean “magic bullet” 100% efficacy?  - then no, certainly not. But nether are the expensive treatments and vaccines 100%

Seeing as  you've posted things here from very questionable sites, that is the understatement of the year. . .

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