Jump to content

Menu

The “vaccination divide” in the US


Quill
 Share

Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I was not replying to you.

My point is many on this board think it's ok for there to be mandates for legal citizens but not for those crossing the border illegally. Again, I think the border should be closed. And vaccination should be an individual's decision made in consult with the MD, not mandated by any government entity.

Legal mandates?  No.  I haven't heard anyone calling for that.  Allow businesses and employers to set their own policies?  Yes.  

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Fritz said:

I was not replying to you.

My point is many on this board think it's ok for there to be mandates for legal citizens but not for those crossing the border illegally. Again, I think the border should be closed. And vaccination should be an individual's decision made in consult with the MD, not mandated by any government entity.

If only people were consulting MDs to make the decision. Even on this board, I don’t recall one person who hasn’t been vaccinated saying it’s because they consulted with their doctor and we’re advised against it. Now I freely admit I may have missed it. I do recall several people saying they consulted with their doctor and were advised to do it, and often given additional guidance on how to protect themselves. Certainly nothing I’ve read or seen or heard anywhere, including IRL, points to the majority of unvaccinated having consulted a doctor and been advised against it.

And I don’t think anyone here has expressed being for mandates for US citizens but against mandates for undocumented immigrants. Are they even currently being offered vaccines and turning them down in droves like citizens are in many  places in the US? If not, then perhaps a good place to start is by actually offering them the vaccines along with consultations with health care professionals who speak their languages.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Frances said:

If only people were consulting MDs to make the decision. Even on this board, I don’t recall one person who hasn’t been vaccinated saying it’s because they consulted with their doctor and we’re advised against it. Now I freely admit I may have missed it. I do recall several people saying they consulted with their doctor and were advised to do it, and often given additional guidance on how to protect themselves. Certainly nothing I’ve read or seen or heard anywhere, including IRL, points to the majority of unvaccinated having consulted a doctor and been advised against it.

And I don’t think anyone here has expressed being for mandates for US citizens but against mandates for undocumented immigrants. Are they even currently being offered vaccines and turning them down in droves like citizens are in many  places in the US? If not, then perhaps a good place to start is by actually offering them the vaccines along with consultations with health care professionals who speak their languages.

I've seen different advice from different health professionals.

I lost trust in MDs a long time ago, because of the way they hardly even look at you before ordering some standard generic disposition and shuffling you on your way (and billing you $xxx for not solving your problem).  So I could see why a lot of people don't ask a doctor about this.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

List one of those people. I do not believe there are any people on this board that think that. 

I stand corrected. I should have said they appear to have no issue with allowing untested and unvaccinated immigrants to pour across the southern border.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I stand corrected. I should have said they appear to have no issue with allowing untested and unvaccinated immigrants to pour across the southern border.

Fritz, who here is saying that? 

I think it would be wonderful for immigrants to be tested for covid and offered the vaccine. The more who choose to vaccinate, the better for all of us. 

  • Like 12
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, SKL said:

I've seen different advice from different health professionals.

I lost trust in MDs a long time ago, because of the way they hardly even look at you before ordering some standard generic disposition and shuffling you on your way (and billing you $xxx for not solving your problem).  So I could see why a lot of people don't ask a doctor about this.

I should have used the more generic “their healthcare professional” rather than MD because of course lots of people, like me, don’t use an MD as their primary provider or even specialist. I was just responding to Fritz using her language.
 

But no, I don’t consider advice from some random healthcare professional on YouTube or social media or anywhere else to be the same as consulting one’s own healthcare professional(s).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Fritz said:

I have not posted anything against vaccinations. I do not think there should be mandates though for unauthorized vaccinations. Again, it is you and others trying to make this about race/skin color. 

Just the wording of “unauthorized” vaccines is a  tip off though (they are currently “authorized”  under the emergency use authorization. There are strict, time-based protocols in place to move from that to full approval),  and being against an employer requiring employees to either be vaccinated or to test and mask. And I actually  fully believe you that you don’t intend any of this to be about skin color. But I gently say that it might be worth at least being aware that as a new poster, you very quickly came across that way, because you have a pattern of jumping into or starting topics  related to race and doing a lot of race whataboutism, as stated above. Those examples I gave all come from your posts. Again, you were relatively new and it immediately stood out to me. I don’t expect you’re doing it on purpose, but it might be something to have an awareness of.

52 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I was not replying to you.

My point is many on this board think it's ok for there to be mandates for legal citizens but not for those crossing the border illegally. Again, I think the border should be closed. And vaccination should be an individual's decision made in consult with the MD, not mandated by any government entity.

 

19 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I stand corrected. I should have said they appear to have no issue with allowing untested and unvaccinated immigrants to pour across the southern border.

I have issues with all people who are choosing to remain unvaccinated without a health contraindication, despite having vaccine available, and I’m all for much;’much more testing. Sure. Let’s do it. 

Edited by KSera
  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Frances said:

If only people were consulting MDs to make the decision. Even on this board, I don’t recall one person who hasn’t been vaccinated saying it’s because they consulted with their doctor and we’re advised against it.

I don't recall about this board, but people on other boards I belong to have claimed their "doctor" advised them not to get it. But given the amounts of almost laughable woo that most of those people post about and seem to adamantly believe in . . .well, it's why I used the scare quotes. If most of those "doctors" actually exist (I have strong suspicions they don't), then I have serious doubts about the quality of advice being given.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Frances said:

If only people were consulting MDs to make the decision. Even on this board, I don’t recall one person who hasn’t been vaccinated saying it’s because they consulted with their doctor and we’re advised against it.

I would bet the majority of people in my life that haven't vaccinated haven't consulted with their doctors at all. They've done their own research. From what I see on FB, that means deliberately misunderstanding everything from the role of fetal "tissue" to deliberately misunderstanding different ways immunity works (one and done vs. ongoing mutations) to deliberately making VAERS reports out to be judge and jury about vaccine injury. They make it all into a conspiracy.

A few are seriously worried about something that they are much more likely to experience with actual Covid infection than with the vaccine.

31 minutes ago, SKL said:

I've seen different advice from different health professionals.

I lost trust in MDs a long time ago, because of the way they hardly even look at you before ordering some standard generic disposition and shuffling you on your way (and billing you $xxx for not solving your problem).  So I could see why a lot of people don't ask a doctor about this.

Doctors can be jerks and not listen while also understanding vaccine recommendations. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

P.S. My DH is a healthcare provider, and he has to basically open the conversation. Friends IRL have not sought out his expertise hardly at all. Sometimes I feel like saying to people, "You know DH is a healthcare provider, right?" 

He's rolled out the red carpet to invite questions, and it's not unusual for people to run things by him to see if they need to make an extra appointment for something or if they need to hit the ER, so there isn't much question that they would ask if they gave even the smallest fig about it. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, SKL said:

I've seen different advice from different health professionals.

I lost trust in MDs a long time ago, because of the way they hardly even look at you before ordering some standard generic disposition and shuffling you on your way (and billing you $xxx for not solving your problem).  So I could see why a lot of people don't ask a doctor about this.

Sounds like you need a better doctor.

I recall you saying at some point that you were very happy with your plan (I think it was Kaiser or similar to an HMO). It struck me at the time because I have friends who were nervous about starting on a similar plan.  (They are also happy with it, by the way.)

But your above description is not normal in my high medical needs family’s experience.  We, however, do not use Kaiser or HMO type organizations. That may be part of the issue. And we are free to essentially fire any doc who treats us that way and choose a different one.

However, all that aside, I do personally have a doctor (MD) who has recommended that some patients not take the vaccine. She is a specialist and sees a combo of very ill/high needs patients.  Her recommendations vary from individual to individual.  In my family, she recommended that two of us not take the vaccine, and that two of us can, so I wouldn’t say she is anti-vax. She does the same with flu shots.  We balanced this with consultations with our other doctors, and ultimately all four of us got the vaccine.  The other docs opinions outweighed hers.  We do the same for flu shots, all of us get them despite her recommendations that only two of us should do so. 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Fritz said:

I have not posted anything against vaccinations. I do not think there should be mandates though for unauthorized vaccinations. Again, it is you and others trying to make this about race/skin color. 

Bolding mine.  Vaccinations are authorized.  It's an emergency authorization but it is a legal authorization.  To try and say otherwise is just trying to twist yourself in a pretzel for no useful reason.

An employer (and the federal government is a big employer) absolutely has a legal right to mandate vaccinations.  I get mandated vaccinations and tests as a teacher.  My dh gets them as a HCW.  Many other employers mandate them for employee safety and the safety of those they serve. 

  • Like 16
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, SKL said:

I lost trust in MDs a long time ago, because of the way they hardly even look at you before ordering some standard generic disposition and shuffling you on your way (and billing you $xxx for not solving your problem).  So I could see why a lot of people don't ask a doctor about this.

I know people say just ask a trusted healthcare provider. But I have very little trust in most of them.

Just 3 reasons why -- the big three-- I have more.

1. I buried my Mom this past February. The doctor put her on medicines for seizures. hen I got the report of the actual procedure, she did not have seizures. There was no reason for this strong medicine that clouded the issues she was having.

2. My Dad had a heart attack during a simple test at the hospital. We think he had an allergic reaction to a medicine he was given for the test. I heard the doctors whispering about it outside his room. No one would answer my questions. They decided he needed a valve replacement. The operating doctor decided to repair, not replace the valve. Nine months later he died because it really should have been a replacement, not a repair. He was too weak for the second surgery.

3. My son died from a medicine reaction. The side effect is listed on the medicine in England, but Big Pharma fought to keep it off the info in the US. Big Pharma won; my only son is dead.

Really, I am supposed to trust these people.

I did get my first shot this weekend. It seems like it is working. I hope it was a good decision, but please do not tell me to trust medical professionals.

  • Sad 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Sounds like you need a better doctor.

I recall you saying at some point that you were very happy with your plan (I think it was Kaiser or similar to an HMO). It struck me at the time because I have friends who were nervous about starting on a similar plan.  (They are also happy with it, by the way.)

Ah, that is important context. That is the experience I'm familiar with with Kaiser as well. There can tend to be a cookie cutter, assembly line kind of approach for many (not all) doctors in their system.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, KSera said:

Ah, that is important context. That is the experience I'm familiar with with Kaiser as well. There can tend to be a cookie cutter, assembly line kind of approach for many (not all) doctors in their system.

A cookie cutter, assembly line approach can actually be good. One of the major problems with American medicine is how disjointed it is. You see Dr. A and and Dr B but they don't communicate with each other. Or Dr. A and Dr. B are both cardiologists but practice very differently and there's no oversight over that. There's no attempt to find best practices. 

That's changing somewhat due to pressure from payors including Medicare. Asking Dr. A why their outcomes are worse than average, etc. Of course that leads to doctors refusing to accept patients who will harm their outcomes. 

There is currently a push in large systems like Kaiser to develop best practices for conditions. Standardizing treatment in a way. It is cookie cutter but patients tend to do better because it's more evidence based. 

Kaiser, in general, has good outcomes. Where a cookie cutter approach falls apart is for conditions that are truly unusual but that isn't what most of us have. 

Editing to add a link describing what I'm getting at here. 

Fixing Health Care on the Front Lines

Quote

But no single dominant design exists, which is not surprising given that each organization has its own environment, structure, and history. For example, Virginia Mason Medical Center is a single hospital whose physicians are salaried employees. Intermountain is a network of 25 hospitals with its own health plan whose doctors are a mix of salaried employees and independent practitioners. And the Mayo Clinic has a collaborative culture that dates back to the Mayo brothers’ group practice in the late nineteenth century. An organizational design that is effective in one setting does not necessarily translate to another. More important than the specific designs are the four common principles on which they are based—the topic of the rest of this article.

 

Edited by Ordinary Shoes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I should have used the more generic “their healthcare professional” rather than MD because of course lots of people, like me, don’t use an MD as their primary provider or even specialist. I was just responding to Fritz using her language.
 

But no, I don’t consider advice from some random healthcare professional on YouTube or social media or anywhere else to be the same as consulting one’s own healthcare professional(s).

Our main wellness provider did not recommend the vax nor masking.  They encourage general pro-immune-system lifestyle choices.

I doubt they are the only wellness provider in that boat.

Things may have changed now that the vaxes have been essentially tested on the majority of the adult US population.  But I still doubt that 100% of healthcare professionals recommend the vax to everyone with doubts about it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Doctors can be jerks and not listen while also understanding vaccine recommendations

Yeah well, I have bad experiences with exactly that, and so do a number of people I know IRL.

People don't need a doctor to tell them that the MMR is a recommended vax.  What they may need is one who gives a damn whether and when it's the right choice for their individual kid (or self).  Even more so for the Covid vax, which is so new and not even FDA approved yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

P.S. My DH is a healthcare provider, and he has to basically open the conversation. Friends IRL have not sought out his expertise hardly at all. Sometimes I feel like saying to people, "You know DH is a healthcare provider, right?" 

He's rolled out the red carpet to invite questions, and it's not unusual for people to run things by him to see if they need to make an extra appointment for something or if they need to hit the ER, so there isn't much question that they would ask if they gave even the smallest fig about it. 

On the other hand, there is a ton of info on the web, at reliable websites such as the CDC's own.  Why ask a doctor when you can easily look it up?  I would never do that unless I thought I might need a prescription or medical procedure or an official diagnosis for some purpose.  Or if I had specific individual reasons to be worried about the vax, but then, asking someone who doesn't know my history wouldn't make sense either.

Edited by SKL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

Our main wellness provider did not recommend the vax nor masking.  They encourage general pro-immune-system lifestyle choices.

I doubt they are the only wellness provider in that boat.

Things may have changed now that the vaxes have been essentially tested on the majority of the adult US population.  But I still doubt that 100% of healthcare professionals recommend the vax to everyone with doubts about it.

I’m guessing you are referring to a chiropractor, based on other posts over the years? As another poster already mentioned, while they have their uses, I don’t think most would consider a chiropractor qualified to give advice on covid vaccines or masking during a pandemic.

Of course not everyone is going to be recommended to get the vaccine by their medical provider. Did anyone claim that? People are constantly saying of course those who can’t get one for medical reasons should not do so.

I would definitely be suspicious of any provider though who generally recommended against vaccines or masking, rather than thoughtfully considering each individual case. I mean there is a doctor in my state who generally advises against most childhood vaccines, including tetanus, with the resulting  infections to show for it. 
 

There are obviously people for whom it is not medically advised. But as I said previously, there is no evidence that the majority of those refusing vaccines are consulting their personal healthcare provider.

Edited by Frances
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Spryte said:

Sounds like you need a better doctor.

I recall you saying at some point that you were very happy with your plan (I think it was Kaiser or similar to an HMO). It struck me at the time because I have friends who were nervous about starting on a similar plan.  (They are also happy with it, by the way.)

But your above description is not normal in my high medical needs family’s experience.  We, however, do not use Kaiser or HMO type organizations. That may be part of the issue. And we are free to essentially fire any doc who treats us that way and choose a different one.

However, all that aside, I do personally have a doctor (MD) who has recommended that some patients not take the vaccine. She is a specialist and sees a combo of very ill/high needs patients.  Her recommendations vary from individual to individual.  In my family, she recommended that two of us not take the vaccine, and that two of us can, so I wouldn’t say she is anti-vax. She does the same with flu shots.  We balanced this with consultations with our other doctors, and ultimately all four of us got the vaccine.  The other docs opinions outweighed hers.  We do the same for flu shots, all of us get them despite her recommendations that only two of us should do so.

Wow, you have a good memory.  We were forced into Kaiser for some years, when my kids were like 5yo to 9yo?  But we have used various MDs before and since.  None of them has ever given even a tenth of a second of thought as to whether a shot is right for my kids at a given time (the earlier the better from their perspective).  Even when I asked questions (that got me laughed at or berated).  And don't get me started about how a Kaiser MD gave me a file on my 6yo, pre-labeled "ADHD" before they even saw her, where the second half of the printout was about somebody else's infant.  Or how their computer spit out an "are your kids ready for KG" printout when my kids were in 1st grade.  😕  And all the times I was given generic advice that my skinny kid needed more exercise and less fat.

I'm glad that you have had better experiences.

But this is way off topic, sorry to the OP!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

Wow, you have a good memory.  We were forced into Kaiser for some years, when my kids were like 5yo to 9yo?  But we have used various MDs before and since.  None of them has ever given even a tenth of a second of thought as to whether a shot is right for my kids at a given time (the earlier the better from their perspective).  Even when I asked questions (that got me laughed at or berated).  And don't get me started about how a Kaiser MD gave me a file on my 6yo, pre-labeled "ADHD" before they even saw her, where the second half of the printout was about somebody else's infant.  Or how their computer spit out an "are your kids ready for KG" printout when my kids were in 1st grade.  😕  And all the times I was given generic advice that my skinny kid needed more exercise and less fat.

I'm glad that you have had better experiences.

But this is way off topic, sorry to the OP!

I only remembered because at the time your experience was positive, and I hoped it would be for my friends as well. 

It took me a long, long time to find a good doc.  She’s our primary, and we drive two hours to see her, in crazy traffic.  It’s an all day adventure.  

Experiences like yours are why people don’t trust their docs.  That’s a shame.  I hope you find someone better if you ever need one.
 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, SKL said:

Our main wellness provider did not recommend the vax nor masking.  They encourage general pro-immune-system lifestyle choices.

In our town, the "wellness" providers have been the ones to organize the anti-mask demonstrations and to block every Covid mitigation measure. What the heck is it with chiropractors and "wellness" providers?
My chiro didn't have masks in the office even when the numbers were highest. 
What is their rationale for not recommending masking? Do they really believe "pro-immune lifestyle choices" could have prevented half a million people from dying and millions other from being ill? 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My chiro didn't have masks in the office even when the numbers were highest. 
What is their rationale for not recommending masking? Do they really believe "pro-immune lifestyle choices" could have prevented half a million people from dying and millions other from being ill? 

I didn't ask their rationale.  I did my own research and made my own decisions. 

That said, it has always been clear that good health, and especially a good vitamin D level, have highly correlated with better outcomes from Covid.  Of course we can't all just wish or act ourselves into good health.  But to the extent we can make changes, they help.  Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, SKL said:

I didn't ask their rationale.  I did my own research and made my own decisions. 

That said, it has always been clear that good health, and especially a good vitamin D level, have highly correlated with better outcomes from Covid.  Of course we can't all just wish or act ourselves into good health.  But to the extent we can make changes, they help.  Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

Um, yes? Both my husband and I have our D levels checked at least annually - him more often as his tends to be low. Exercise, diet, sleep, stress reduction, vitamins, etc are all part of our normal wellness visits. Visit before last I was also advised to start magnesium on top of what I'm already taking, etc. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I only remembered because at the time your experience was positive, and I hoped it would be for my friends as well. 

It took me a long, long time to find a good doc.  She’s our primary, and we drive two hours to see her, in crazy traffic.  It’s an all day adventure.  

Experiences like yours are why people don’t trust their docs.  That’s a shame.  I hope you find someone better if you ever need one.

I don't remember this positive experience with Kaiser, LOL.  Not saying it didn't happen, but it was apparently overshadowed by the many negatives I have experienced since then.  Anyhoo, our local Kaiser shut down with little notice one day, so there we were scrambling for new insurance and providers.  Fun times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Um, yes? Both my husband and I have our D levels checked at least annually - him more often as his tends to be low. Exercise, diet, sleep, stress reduction, vitamins, etc are all part of our normal wellness visits. Visit before last I was also advised to start magnesium on top of what I'm already taking, etc. 

Glad to hear it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, SKL said:

I didn't ask their rationale.  I did my own research and made my own decisions. 

That said, it has always been clear that good health, and especially a good vitamin D level, have highly correlated with better outcomes from Covid.  Of course we can't all just wish or act ourselves into good health.  But to the extent we can make changes, they help.  

I completely agree that good health correlates with better outcomes - but not to recommend masking seems irresponsible from any person who considers themselves a health care advocate/provider/whatever they label themselves. Because they should also consider the other people's health who may not have had such an enlightened provider or just be in crappy health through no fault of their own.

  • Like 17
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Frances said:

If only people were consulting MDs to make the decision. Even on this board, I don’t recall one person who hasn’t been vaccinated saying it’s because they consulted with their doctor and we’re advised against it. Now I freely admit I may have missed it. I do recall several people saying they consulted with their doctor and were advised to do it, and often given additional guidance on how to protect themselves. Certainly nothing I’ve read or seen or heard anywhere, including IRL, points to the majority of unvaccinated having consulted a doctor and been advised against it.

And I don’t think anyone here has expressed being for mandates for US citizens but against mandates for undocumented immigrants. Are they even currently being offered vaccines and turning them down in droves like citizens are in many  places in the US? If not, then perhaps a good place to start is by actually offering them the vaccines along with consultations with health care professionals who speak their languages.

I know 1 person who was advised to wait to get the vaccine. After a few months of something improving in blood work (I don’t remember what) they were advised that to go get it and did.  But that was only 1 person out of dozens.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I completely agree that good health correlates with better outcomes - but not to recommend masking seems irresponsible from any person who considers themselves a health care advocate/provider/whatever they label themselves. Because they should also consider the other people's health who may not have had such an enlightened provider or just be in crappy health through no fault of their own.

Not to mention, it takes time to get D levels up. It takes time to lose weight and not be obese - often years! A mask takes seconds. it is something to do to protect yourself NOW. Same with a vaccine. 

  • Like 18
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, SKL said:

I didn't ask their rationale.  I did my own research and made my own decisions. 

That said, it has always been clear that good health, and especially a good vitamin D level, have highly correlated with better outcomes from Covid.  Of course we can't all just wish or act ourselves into good health.  But to the extent we can make changes, they help.  Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

Not rare. It was even on the National news. As well as recommended by my MD. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't remember this positive experience with Kaiser, LOL.  Not saying it didn't happen, but it was apparently overshadowed by the many negatives I have experienced since then.  Anyhoo, our local Kaiser shut down with little notice one day, so there we were scrambling for new insurance and providers.  Fun times.

Ha, well, you seemed pleased with it that particular day, but maybe it was fleeting.  I was happy to hear of one person with a good experience so it stuck with me. It must have been years ago.

FWIW, my doctor regularly tests D levels, among a slew of other things, and we all have a boatload of supplements.  But I’m going to just come out and say that her waiting list for new patients is a year +, and there’s a reason we drive two hours to see her.  She’s special, and we all know it, not because of Vit D but because she is an LLMD.

What made you decide to get vaccinated, then?  It obviously wasn’t your doc.  Are you comfortable sharing?

Edited by Spryte
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Ha, well, you seemed pleased with it that particular day, but maybe it was fleeting.  I was happy to hear of one person with a good experience so it stuck with me. It must have been years ago.

FWIW, my doctor regularly tests D levels, among a slew of other things, and we all have a boatload of supplements.  But I’m going to just come out and say that her waiting list for new patients is a year +, and there’s a reason we drive two hours to see her.  She’s special, and we all know it, not because of Vit D but because she is an LLMD.

What made you decide to get vaccinated, then?  It obviously wasn’t your doc.  Are you comfortable sharing?

I was always hoping the most at-risk people could get vaxed to protect themselves.  When I realized a number of at-risk people weren't getting vaxed due to fear of side effects, I decided to get the vax to help protect them.

(FTR, my provider didn't say nobody should vax or mask.  But I could tell by certain words and actions that they weren't into either.  I never asked their opinion on Covid, because I know their general views on vaxes, and I have my own views.  That said, it is likely some of their clients haven't followed all the CDC recommendations.)

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

A cookie cutter, assembly line approach can actually be good. One of the major problems with American medicine is how disjointed it is. You see Dr. A and and Dr B but they don't communicate with each other. Or Dr. A and Dr. B are both cardiologists but practice very differently and there's no oversight over that. There's no attempt to find best practices. 

What you are describing is evidence-based medicine, but I think what people experience as cookie cutter can be a variety of things:

  • Doctor prescribed xyz that I am allergic to/interacts with my other meds/etc. 
  • Doctor has a favorite diagnosis or treatment plan learned in med school 20 years ago, and when I bring in articles about my concerns, I am brushed off
  • I asked for certain tests to be run, and my doctor agreed but then did a bait and switch to what they usually do and refused to make it right
  • When the first test didn't show anything was wrong, the doctor took a look at pudgy, stressed out mom and decided everything from there out was in my head
  • "I always prescribe an antibiotic for that"
  • "I will only prescribe these two meds for that condition even though there are many more to choose from, and many people need to try several before finding a winner"
  • "Aneurysms don't run in families (they do), and I am the doctor, so I must know better"

And many other things like that. 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

On the other hand, there is a ton of info on the web, at reliable websites such as the CDC's own.  Why ask a doctor when you can easily look it up?  I would never do that unless I thought I might need a prescription or medical procedure or an official diagnosis for some purpose.  Or if I had specific individual reasons to be worried about the vax, but then, asking someone who doesn't know my history wouldn't make sense either.

I know a lot of people who are purposefully reading those sites and putting their own spin on them based on their own biases. I can't tell how many people have cited the CDC and taken things out of context during this pandemic. 

Sometimes professional advice helps contextualize what you read as well. I did a ton of research on something specific that came up with me a few months ago, and my doctor had access to better information that was more up-to-date. Sometimes you need a subscription to read better specialized information. Some of these journals cost exorbitant amounts of money and come out twice per year (I used to work for a scientific publisher and had access when I did). You don't find those on google. 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Wow, you have a good memory.  We were forced into Kaiser for some years, when my kids were like 5yo to 9yo?  But we have used various MDs before and since.  None of them has ever given even a tenth of a second of thought as to whether a shot is right for my kids at a given time (the earlier the better from their perspective).  Even when I asked questions (that got me laughed at or berated).  And don't get me started about how a Kaiser MD gave me a file on my 6yo, pre-labeled "ADHD" before they even saw her, where the second half of the printout was about somebody else's infant.  Or how their computer spit out an "are your kids ready for KG" printout when my kids were in 1st grade.  😕  And all the times I was given generic advice that my skinny kid needed more exercise and less fat.

I'm glad that you have had better experiences.

But this is way off topic, sorry to the OP!

I can't help the laughing. It's a pet peeve of mine. They won't all do that. I had to look really hard to find a primary care doctor that wasn't that way, but I had specialists in the meantime who were all really nice. I recently found a primary doc that is super nice via my optometrist. 

Some of what you're talking about though might be the fault of office personnel, which can be a reason to switch, but should be addressed by talking to your doctor about the errors first. 

Being annoyed that everyone gets diet advice that 90% of people need is silly. Being annoyed if you are wrongly targeted for this information is another story; in my world, I see that more with insurance companies. My son takes a blood pressure medication for an aneurysm, but the insurance companies LOVE to send information on how he can lose weight (he's underweight). That's targeted. I hear about people whose insurance company sends BP cuffs and cool stuff, but mine just wants to harp on my about controlling my extremely well-controlled asthma (my rescue inhalers tend to expire, and I don't require a maintenance inhaler). That's targeted. Sending me a list of tests recommended for people my age that might include listing a mammo when I just had one is the office trying to be helpful.

41 minutes ago, SKL said:

Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

Again, you need a better one. I had one that recommended taking D but not testing for it to know if you actually need it or if the supplements are working. I no longer see her for that a million other reasons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

There is currently a push in large systems like Kaiser to develop best practices for conditions. Standardizing treatment in a way. It is cookie cutter but patients tend to do better because it's more evidence based. 

Kaiser, in general, has good outcomes. Where a cookie cutter approach falls apart is for conditions that are truly unusual but that isn't what most of us have.

 

I can see in theory this may be true, but it hasn't been that way in practice in my experience. In the medical specialty I was trained in, they had a bad reputation because it was very much recipe medicine, where someone comes in with abc, so you give them a handout on xyz, which is quicker and cheaper than doing qrs, which is actually more effective and also promotes better patient satisfaction with outcome. I'm further colored by my parents' experience with them, and while they are very happy because it's all they've known for fifty+ years, my siblings and I bang our heads against the wall because their care is substandard compared to what the rest of us experience with our own doctors and their doctors miss things and they now have lasting negative health consequences as a result, not to mention it takes so much for them to be able to see a specialist, with their primary acting as gate keeper. I realize this is a more cost effective way to provide medical care, but it's not had good outcomes from where we stand.

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Our main wellness provider did not recommend the vax nor masking.  They encourage general pro-immune-system lifestyle choices.

I doubt they are the only wellness provider in that boat.

Things may have changed now that the vaxes have been essentially tested on the majority of the adult US population.  But I still doubt that 100% of healthcare professionals recommend the vax to everyone with doubts about it.

A chiropractor is not trained to be a primary health care provider. I know some like to bill themselves that way and sell their services that way, but if you compare their education to an MD (or nurse practitioner, or PA, or other PCP), you'll see it's not anywhere comparable. It's just not the focus of their education.

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

Yes. Mine has been tested by several doctors. The new PCP I saw in October tested my D and called me after the results to say it was too low and to advise me how to supplement (and actually recommended the right kinds and amounts).

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

Being annoyed that everyone gets diet advice that 90% of people need is silly. Being annoyed if you are wrongly targeted for this information is another story; in my world, I see that more with insurance companies. My son takes a blood pressure medication for an aneurysm, but the insurance companies LOVE to send information on how he can lose weight (he's underweight). That's targeted. I hear about people whose insurance company sends BP cuffs and cool stuff, but mine just wants to harp on my about controlling my extremely well-controlled asthma (my rescue inhalers tend to expire, and I don't require a maintenance inhaler). That's targeted. Sending me a list of tests recommended for people my age that might include listing a mammo when I just had one is the office trying to be helpful.

Yeah, I think it was targeted (by their computer) because my kid's weight percentile was slightly higher than her height percentile.  She is v-shaped, muscular, short, and wore tot sized underwear until middle school.  More importantly, she has always struggled to eat enough, so yes, I was annoyed with advice to put her on a diet.

A cursory glance at the actual child would have been nice, especially when the so-called medical care was costing us about $10,000 per year.

So yeah, the last thing I'd do is ask an MD whether we should get the vax.  Sorry.  I already know what they would say, so why pay mega bucks to hear that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

Sometimes professional advice helps contextualize what you read as well. I did a ton of research on something specific that came up with me a few months ago, and my doctor had access to better information that was more up-to-date. Sometimes you need a subscription to read better specialized information. Some of these journals cost exorbitant amounts of money and come out twice per year (I used to work for a scientific publisher and had access when I did). You don't find those on google.

I'm sorry, but someone who won't spend a full 60 seconds looking at my child when I'm paying him to is not going to be trusted to read all the articles about the latest health developments.  It's not like their specialty is Covid or mRNA vaccines.  I'm sure some doctors are interested enough to read, and others are not.  My kids' first pediatrician didn't even seem to know that you don't give the MMR to kids who might be allergic to eggs.  Five minutes of internet research will tell any layman that much.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are national expert epidemiologists who are giving perfectly good advice to mask and vaccinate. Most people don’t have contraindications for the Covid vaccine. There are almost no contraindications for masking itself. It’s not that hard to ask a doctor if you specifically might have a contraindication for a vaccine. And honestly most of those who need to ask know to ask because they have immune issues already or clotting issues etc. 

This isn’t that hard- at least in the US. (Friends of mine overseas who have to decide whether to take one of the Chinese vaccines really do have a tough choice. So do the people offered AZ. ). Most of the excuses put up about this in the US are just that- excuses. 

  • Like 12
  • Thanks 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Spryte said:

Experiences like yours are why people don’t trust their docs.  That’s a shame.  I hope you find someone better if you ever need one.
 

 

I have had a number of truly appalling interactions with medical doctors over the years.  Even now, I have noticed that I get a different level of concern from a doctor depending on what I list my occupation as or if the doctor is aware of my husband and children’s concern for me.  My mom was basically told that it was her time to die when she was barely 50 by a doctor who didn’t want to bother treating a recurrence of her cancer (with a second opinion, she lived 6 more years with good quality of life, which allowed her to meet 5 more grandkids.) I know that good care is out there and I’ve had it at times but lately I’ve noticed people pish poshing the very real and very shitty experiences that people have had with doctors that lead many people to be skeptical of medical personnel. 

Edited by LucyStoner
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I have had a number of truly appalling interactions with medical doctors over the years.

 

the very real and very shitty experiences that people have had with doctors that lead many people to be skeptical of medical personnel.  

My family and I have had horrible medical care throughout the years.  I had one doctor I loved and trusted, but she retired early and unexpectedly.  We have wasted so much time and money on bad - and even dangerous - medical care.  It's ridiculous and there's no accountability at all - we're still responsible to pay for crappy service.  I don't trust anything any of my doctors tell me - I have to research and second guess everything.  

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Kassia said:

My family and I have had horrible medical care throughout the years.  I had one doctor I loved and trusted, but she retired early and unexpectedly.  We have wasted so much time and money on bad - and even dangerous - medical care.  It's ridiculous and there's no accountability at all - we're still responsible to pay for crappy service.  I don't trust anything any of my doctors tell me - I have to research and second guess everything.  

 

 

Yep. 
 

When I was 32 and concerned about the sexual side effects of my medication a doctor actually told me “well, that’s probably not an important part of your life now”.  I was a 32 year old married woman who was asking about it- it was clearly an important enough thing for me to mention.  That wasn’t a life or death issue but it was a particularly egregious example of sexism IMO.  

That interaction led me to search out an older female doctor I could actually trust to take me seriously.  I was also able to find a medication that didn’t kill my ability to enjoy sex.  Unfortunately, that doctor retired last year and I had to find a new primary doctor.  I dreaded her retirement for years.  

Edited by LucyStoner
  • Sad 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never had a doctor I liked and trusted. I feel like they just throw meds at you. I think our health care providers are pretty good at diagnosing things but horrible when it comes to treatments.

OTOH, I love my pediatrician and am so sad my kids have aged out. He would spend an hour plus with you, listened more than he spoke, and wasn't condescending in the least. He was also understanding and respectful about my hesitancy with the chicken pox and Gardisil vaccines.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, SKL said:

I'm sorry, but someone who won't spend a full 60 seconds looking at my child when I'm paying him to is not going to be trusted to read all the articles about the latest health developments.  It's not like their specialty is Covid or mRNA vaccines.  I'm sure some doctors are interested enough to read, and others are not.  My kids' first pediatrician didn't even seem to know that you don't give the MMR to kids who might be allergic to eggs.  Five minutes of internet research will tell any layman that much.

I didn't say your dismissive doctor would. That doesn't mean another wouldn't. 

I was gaslighted by my doctor for 12 or so years. I found a better one and avoided her in the meantime while using specialists for the most pressing issues.

The fix is not to say that all doctors are untrustworthy with vaccine information. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I didn't say your dismissive doctor would. That doesn't mean another wouldn't. 

I was gaslighted by my doctor for 12 or so years. I found a better one and avoided her in the meantime while using specialists for the most pressing issues.

The fix is not to say that all doctors are untrustworthy with vaccine information. 

I didn't say all are untrustworthy.  I was explaining why a lot of people wouldn't even think to ask "their doctor" about the Covid vax.

Edited by SKL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our Gov. just announced that all educators are expected to get the vaccine and if they don't, they must get covid tested every week and bring the results to their supervisors.   I am wondering how this will pan out with some very vocal anti-vax educators in my district.   Could be an interesting year.

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

5 hours ago, whitestavern said:

 I think our health care providers are pretty good at diagnosing things but horrible when it comes to treatments.

 

This has not been my experience at all.  My doctors have been HORRIBLE at diagnosing things.  I mean absolutely horrible even when the diagnosis was obvious or even told to them by me.  I had a doctor tell me to take a Tums when I told him I had a total intestinal obstruction - I could have died.  I had another doctor tell me my kids didn't have pertussis just because he didn't hear them cough during their five minute appt.  Another doctor told me to keep my fingers warm when I told him I had trigger finger - then when he did surgery on my hand a few weeks later, he told my husband that my trigger finger was pretty bad.  I was told that I couldn't have broken my tailbone because I could still sit down - but x-ray showed a fracture.  I could go on and on...I had to pay for all these darn appointments, too.  

 

 

5 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

.  Unfortunately, that doctor retired last year and I had to find a new primary doctor.  I dreaded her retirement for years.  

I actually cried when I got the letter that my doctor (she was my gyn, but I wish she had been a PCP) retired.  I thought I'd be going to her for many years and eventually bring my dd to her.  Her retirement was a total surprise.  

  • Sad 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Frances said:

And I don’t think anyone here has expressed being for mandates for US citizens but against mandates for undocumented immigrants. Are they even currently being offered vaccines and turning them down in droves like citizens are in many  places in the US? If not, then perhaps a good place to start is by actually offering them the vaccines along with consultations with health care professionals who speak their languages.

Undocumented immigrants are being offered free vaccines here.  There are separate, specific campaigns going on, and information available in other languages.  

I know this was way back in the thread, but evidently NJ and TX have almost the same percentage (of population) of undocumented immigrants.  

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, SKL said:

I didn't ask their rationale.  I did my own research and made my own decisions. 

That said, it has always been clear that good health, and especially a good vitamin D level, have highly correlated with better outcomes from Covid.  Of course we can't all just wish or act ourselves into good health.  But to the extent we can make changes, they help.  Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

My kid's cardiologist put her on a vitamin protocol directly due to covid. 

Trying to remember what all: Vitamin D3/Vitamin K2 (pretty sure that's the combo), Magnesium (if i remember correctly, she stated this is a basic mineral that everything else works off of & it helps sleep), Iron & Vitamin C (ferritin was a little low), and maybe zinc (seems to me there's one more). She also "prescribed" 1/2 hour outside, preferably in the sunshine daily, and gave her info on safe (for her syndrome) exercises to do daily. DD was resistant to physical therapy.

Other DD's PCP did Vitamin D testing at her last appointment; she said she wanted to make sure due to covid. DD needed supplementing so she did a run of really strong vitamins, followed by a maintenance dose. 

So, we've had 2 so far recommend "covid general health" changes. 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

My kid's cardiologist put her on a vitamin protocol directly due to covid. 

Trying to remember what all: Vitamin D3/Vitamin K2 (pretty sure that's the combo), Magnesium (if i remember correctly, she stated this is a basic mineral that everything else works off of & it helps sleep), Iron & Vitamin C (ferritin was a little low), and maybe zinc (seems to me there's one more). She also "prescribed" 1/2 hour outside, preferably in the sunshine daily, and gave her info on safe (for her syndrome) exercises to do daily. DD was resistant to physical therapy.

Other DD's PCP did Vitamin D testing at her last appointment; she said she wanted to make sure due to covid. DD needed supplementing so she did a run of really strong vitamins, followed by a maintenance dose. 

So, we've had 2 so far recommend "covid general health" changes. 

I also have a vitamin protocol, Including D, plus am on a higher than normal protocol of antihistamines and decongestants, with a goal of making my system less hospitable to respiratory infections and keeping my usual background symptoms under control so I'm not constantly coughing, sneezing and wheezing. I got the vaccine as soon as I was available, from a paramedic,at a site with a longer wait period and multiple ambulances ready to go.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...