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The “vaccination divide” in the US


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21 hours ago, SKL said:

Yeah, I feel like boycotting any place that discriminates against the unvaccinated.  (Since I hardly go anywhere anyway, I haven't had the opportunity to boycott....)

And yes, I see a lot of sentiment here that promotes such discrimination.

But I see control on the other side too. No respect for private property about the mask issue for example. Business establishments had no control over what went was happening on their own private property. I would be all for you choosing to shop in a place that didn't require masks but our mayor finally made a mandate because businesses couldn't get people to obey the house rules. It was despicable.

 

Republicans trying to control what businesses require of their employees etc is actually a very liberal thing to do. Usually, it is liberals trying to control every little aspect of employment when really it should be a mutual contract that you are free to take or leave.

 

As far as I can tell, both sides are acting exactly the same way: wanting to control everyone else. I do not know if we will come out of this with any freedoms at all.

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WRT discrimination, is a store that requires shoes to enter discriminating against the barefoot? 

Isn't it a kind of discrimination to force children under 12 and high risk people to stay in lockdown because adults won't vaccinate? 

It makes no sense to talk about discrimination WRT the COVID vaccine. 

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20 hours ago, Corraleno said:

The number of unvaccinated immigrants released into communities is infinitesimal compared to the millions of unvaccinated US citizens who are driving the current spike, but you're focused on a tiny number of poor, sick, brown people? Why is that?

 

People from many countries are crossing the border. There is no mention of the skin color of the people being housed at the hotel because it is irrelevant. There have been over 1 million as of June. IMO during the middle of a pandemic priority should be given to closing our border.

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16 hours ago, Soror said:

Yes, I live in the same state and posted about it a couple of days ago. We are leading the country, go us! My mom (anti-vaxer) was just complaining about them bringing back mask mandates and talking about they shouldn't care if it is just unvaxxed getting sick, why does it matter. No concern for the hospital system or workers (because she told me lots of heatlh care workers are against the vax too - never mind that those stats lump together low level people like CNA and dr's). But whatever. No concern about the people that can't get vaxxed. I don't know any anti-vaxxer taking any covid precautions whatsoever (and I know a ton of anti-vaxxers- not just unvaccinated but anti-vax). Because of course as we've seen on this very board you have anti-vaxxers downplaying Covid again and again. It is NBD so who cares. 

Me too. The mayor just declined to impose another mask mandate because he argued that the city council wouldn't agree to it (some councils members would have fought for a mandate - most are anti-mask). For the last month, hospitalizations are running 50+ (county has about 86k people), vaccination rate has barely budged, still sitting at 22% for one dose, 19.9% for two. 

Some businesses are requiring masks still but without ways to enforce it. 

Kansas City, MO just issued a month long mask mandate and the damn attorney general of the state (also running for a US Sentate position) has sued St. Louis for doing so and is planning on suing KC.

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2 hours ago, Fritz said:

People from many countries are crossing the border. There is no mention of the skin color of the people being housed at the hotel because it is irrelevant. There have been over 1 million as of June. IMO during the middle of a pandemic priority should be given to closing our border.

That would have some relevance to this topic if we were otherwise keeping spread contained within our country. As it is, this isn’t a problem coming from the outside. Much of the country has decided to just let it run rampant. If we were going to be getting serious about stopping the spread within our borders, then this would have to be part of it, absolutely. But right now, it’s a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with Covid. 

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My  brother screamed and cursed at me over the phone in March when I told him we had just been vaccinated and had made the decision (at that time) to limit contact as much as possible to other vaccinated people.....he told me he wasn't putting that S#it in his body because it would alter his DNA and I am a moron for trusting the government.....well he got his first vaccine today.

In his community.....and my parents lived there before they moved near me....there has been a massive outbreak.  One of our close friends is fighting for his life and many many people there are very sick.  It was an entire group of people like my brother....no big deal, just hype....etc etc.  

Why does it take someone you know dying before people 'get' how big of a deal this is.

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3 minutes ago, KSera said:

That would have some relevance to this topic if we were otherwise keeping spread contained within our country. As it is, this isn’t a problem coming from the outside. Much of the country has decided to just let it run rampant. If we were going to be getting serious about stopping the spread within our borders, then this would have to be part of it, absolutely. But right now, it’s a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with Covid. 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/democratic-congressman-calls-on-biden-to-put-a-pause-on-border-crisis-as-covid-spikes-in-texas

Apparently Texas Democratic Congressman Cuellar sees it differently. I am sure most of the locals in that area see if differently from you as well. That should matter!

Texas Democratic Congressman Henry Cuellar sounded off Wednesday to Fox News amid dueling illegal immigration and pandemic crises in his border county district.

Cuellar, of Laredo, told "Your World" that he has been urging President Biden and the White House to take substantive action to curb thousands of illegal immigrants that are flooding across from Mexico week after week, many of them unvaccinated and untested for coronavirus.

He called on Biden to put a "pause" on accepting or releasing migrants who have been flowing across the Rio Grande in record numbers so that local and state officials can get a handle on the crisis.

"Last week in the lower Rio Grande Valley, [law enforcement] had over 20,000 encounters," the House Homeland Security Committee member said, adding that he spoke earlier in the day to officials in hard-hit La Joya, Texas.

Cuellar referenced the case of a motel in the city that is housing illegal immigrants brought there by a charity, despite some testing positive for coronavirus. Neither city officials nor law enforcement were notified by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security or the charity.

 

"It's not fair to by local communities, people being released there that might have COVID-19," Cuellar continued. "We need to just make sure that we communicate with each other … What I'm asking of the Biden administration is to do a pause.

"Do a pause. They need to prioritize border communities, they need to prioritize the men and women of DHS. They need to prioritize our border communities and DHS."

 

Cuellar added that local residents and Border Patrol officers are at risk of contracting COVID-19.

"Remember, those men and women have families. If they get sick and go home to the families, it's not fair to their families and certainly not fair to the border communities to leave people that are sick and not even tell the local communities like La Joya," he said.

DHS had announced that as of July 31 they would be considering ending Title 42 enforcement – a policy invoked by President Trump that allows for the expulsion of foreign nationals from places where there is a risk of communicable disease. However, a recent NBC News report said that decision is now "in flux."

"I told the White House that they have -- they're deporting people under Title 42. I support Title 42 especially right now," said Cuellar. "They need to publicize and show images of people being deported: Because I ask you, Charles, have you seen one single picture of somebody being deported? No. I haven't seen one. I see people coming in. But we're not showing people being deported."

"These numbers are not stopping and with all due respect to the administration, they need to put a pause on this now for the sake of our border communities," he stressed.

 

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36 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Apparently Texas Democratic Congressman Cuellar sees it differently. I am sure most of the locals in that area see if differently from you as well. That should matter!

My point is, if you want to be taken seriously that your concern is the spread of Covid, then you need to be showing it through other words and actions as well. But if requiring vaccines is wrong in all other circumstances, but suddenly right in the case of immigrants, there’s no good argument there. It doesn’t help that this is part of a pattern of whataboutism, mostly having to do with minorities. “What about Black people having loud arguments in their apartments?” “What about BLM protests?” Etc.
 

Let me be clear: I don’t think Covid positive individuals should be crossing the border and out among the public while positive, and I believe everyone who can be should be vaccinated against Covid. But I don’t believe that is true for immigrants, while not being true for all the millions of US citizens walking around unvaccinated and Covid positive. So, handle the border problems, but also the US resident problems, which are currently a much bigger cause of spread. 

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I do not understand the cry that unvaccinated immigrants are dangerous but not unvaccinated citizens? 

And I'd be happy to vaccinate immigrants, and test them - but then someone would bitch that we are spending money/tests/vaccines on immigrants. 

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8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I do not understand the cry that unvaccinated immigrants are dangerous but not unvaccinated citizens? 

And I'd be happy to vaccinate immigrants, and test them - but then someone would bitch that we are spending money/tests/vaccines on immigrants. 

I know.  It isn't making sense to me.  Especially coming out of TX who is all about freedom and being anti (Covid) vaxers, anti masks...just doesn't add up.

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7 minutes ago, KSera said:

My point is, if you want to be taken seriously that your concern is the spread of Covid, then you need to be showing it through other words and actions as well. But if requiring vaccines is wrong in all other circumstances, but suddenly right in the case of immigrants, there’s no good argument there. It doesn’t help that this is part of a pattern of whataboutism, mostly having to do with minorities. “What about Black people having loud arguments in their apartments?” “What about BLM protests?” Etc.
 

Let me be clear: I don’t think Covid positive individuals should be crossing the border and out among the public while positive, and I believe everyone who can be should be vaccinated against Covid. But I don’t believe that is true for immigrants, while not being true for all the millions of US citizens walking around unvaccinated and Covid positive. So, handle the border problems, but also the US resident problems, which are currently a much bigger cause of spread. 

I have not posted anything against vaccinations. I do not think there should be mandates though for unauthorized vaccinations. Again, it is you and others trying to make this about race/skin color. 

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1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

My  brother screamed and cursed at me over the phone in March when I told him we had just been vaccinated and had made the decision (at that time) to limit contact as much as possible to other vaccinated people.....he told me he wasn't putting that S#it in his body because it would alter his DNA and I am a moron for trusting the government.....well he got his first vaccine today.

I am sorry it's so bad and that you have friends so ill, but I am glad he's gotten his first shot. 

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11 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I have not posted anything against vaccinations. I do not think there should be mandates though for unauthorized vaccinations. Again, it is you and others trying to make this about race/skin color. 

I never mentioned race or skin color. I'm saying, if you think unvaccinated people are a risk, hat should apply to everyone. 

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39 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I never mentioned race or skin color. I'm saying, if you think unvaccinated people are a risk, hat should apply to everyone. 

I was not replying to you.

My point is many on this board think it's ok for there to be mandates for legal citizens but not for those crossing the border illegally. Again, I think the border should be closed. And vaccination should be an individual's decision made in consult with the MD, not mandated by any government entity.

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Just now, Fritz said:

I was not replying to you.

My point is many on this board think it's ok for there to be mandates for legal citizens but not for those crossing the border illegally. Again, I think the border should be closed. And vaccination should be an individual's decision made in consult with the MD, not mandated by any government entity.

List one of those people. I do not believe there are any people on this board that think that. 

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8 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I was not replying to you.

My point is many on this board think it's ok for there to be mandates for legal citizens but not for those crossing the border illegally. Again, I think the border should be closed. And vaccination should be an individual's decision made in consult with the MD, not mandated by any government entity.

Legal mandates?  No.  I haven't heard anyone calling for that.  Allow businesses and employers to set their own policies?  Yes.  

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1 minute ago, Fritz said:

I was not replying to you.

My point is many on this board think it's ok for there to be mandates for legal citizens but not for those crossing the border illegally. Again, I think the border should be closed. And vaccination should be an individual's decision made in consult with the MD, not mandated by any government entity.

If only people were consulting MDs to make the decision. Even on this board, I don’t recall one person who hasn’t been vaccinated saying it’s because they consulted with their doctor and we’re advised against it. Now I freely admit I may have missed it. I do recall several people saying they consulted with their doctor and were advised to do it, and often given additional guidance on how to protect themselves. Certainly nothing I’ve read or seen or heard anywhere, including IRL, points to the majority of unvaccinated having consulted a doctor and been advised against it.

And I don’t think anyone here has expressed being for mandates for US citizens but against mandates for undocumented immigrants. Are they even currently being offered vaccines and turning them down in droves like citizens are in many  places in the US? If not, then perhaps a good place to start is by actually offering them the vaccines along with consultations with health care professionals who speak their languages.

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9 minutes ago, Frances said:

If only people were consulting MDs to make the decision. Even on this board, I don’t recall one person who hasn’t been vaccinated saying it’s because they consulted with their doctor and we’re advised against it. Now I freely admit I may have missed it. I do recall several people saying they consulted with their doctor and were advised to do it, and often given additional guidance on how to protect themselves. Certainly nothing I’ve read or seen or heard anywhere, including IRL, points to the majority of unvaccinated having consulted a doctor and been advised against it.

And I don’t think anyone here has expressed being for mandates for US citizens but against mandates for undocumented immigrants. Are they even currently being offered vaccines and turning them down in droves like citizens are in many  places in the US? If not, then perhaps a good place to start is by actually offering them the vaccines along with consultations with health care professionals who speak their languages.

I've seen different advice from different health professionals.

I lost trust in MDs a long time ago, because of the way they hardly even look at you before ordering some standard generic disposition and shuffling you on your way (and billing you $xxx for not solving your problem).  So I could see why a lot of people don't ask a doctor about this.

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30 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

List one of those people. I do not believe there are any people on this board that think that. 

I stand corrected. I should have said they appear to have no issue with allowing untested and unvaccinated immigrants to pour across the southern border.

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9 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I stand corrected. I should have said they appear to have no issue with allowing untested and unvaccinated immigrants to pour across the southern border.

Fritz, who here is saying that? 

I think it would be wonderful for immigrants to be tested for covid and offered the vaccine. The more who choose to vaccinate, the better for all of us. 

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20 minutes ago, SKL said:

I've seen different advice from different health professionals.

I lost trust in MDs a long time ago, because of the way they hardly even look at you before ordering some standard generic disposition and shuffling you on your way (and billing you $xxx for not solving your problem).  So I could see why a lot of people don't ask a doctor about this.

I should have used the more generic “their healthcare professional” rather than MD because of course lots of people, like me, don’t use an MD as their primary provider or even specialist. I was just responding to Fritz using her language.
 

But no, I don’t consider advice from some random healthcare professional on YouTube or social media or anywhere else to be the same as consulting one’s own healthcare professional(s).

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1 hour ago, Fritz said:

I have not posted anything against vaccinations. I do not think there should be mandates though for unauthorized vaccinations. Again, it is you and others trying to make this about race/skin color. 

Just the wording of “unauthorized” vaccines is a  tip off though (they are currently “authorized”  under the emergency use authorization. There are strict, time-based protocols in place to move from that to full approval),  and being against an employer requiring employees to either be vaccinated or to test and mask. And I actually  fully believe you that you don’t intend any of this to be about skin color. But I gently say that it might be worth at least being aware that as a new poster, you very quickly came across that way, because you have a pattern of jumping into or starting topics  related to race and doing a lot of race whataboutism, as stated above. Those examples I gave all come from your posts. Again, you were relatively new and it immediately stood out to me. I don’t expect you’re doing it on purpose, but it might be something to have an awareness of.

52 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I was not replying to you.

My point is many on this board think it's ok for there to be mandates for legal citizens but not for those crossing the border illegally. Again, I think the border should be closed. And vaccination should be an individual's decision made in consult with the MD, not mandated by any government entity.

 

19 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I stand corrected. I should have said they appear to have no issue with allowing untested and unvaccinated immigrants to pour across the southern border.

I have issues with all people who are choosing to remain unvaccinated without a health contraindication, despite having vaccine available, and I’m all for much;’much more testing. Sure. Let’s do it. 

Edited by KSera
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40 minutes ago, Frances said:

If only people were consulting MDs to make the decision. Even on this board, I don’t recall one person who hasn’t been vaccinated saying it’s because they consulted with their doctor and we’re advised against it.

I don't recall about this board, but people on other boards I belong to have claimed their "doctor" advised them not to get it. But given the amounts of almost laughable woo that most of those people post about and seem to adamantly believe in . . .well, it's why I used the scare quotes. If most of those "doctors" actually exist (I have strong suspicions they don't), then I have serious doubts about the quality of advice being given.

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43 minutes ago, Frances said:

If only people were consulting MDs to make the decision. Even on this board, I don’t recall one person who hasn’t been vaccinated saying it’s because they consulted with their doctor and we’re advised against it.

I would bet the majority of people in my life that haven't vaccinated haven't consulted with their doctors at all. They've done their own research. From what I see on FB, that means deliberately misunderstanding everything from the role of fetal "tissue" to deliberately misunderstanding different ways immunity works (one and done vs. ongoing mutations) to deliberately making VAERS reports out to be judge and jury about vaccine injury. They make it all into a conspiracy.

A few are seriously worried about something that they are much more likely to experience with actual Covid infection than with the vaccine.

31 minutes ago, SKL said:

I've seen different advice from different health professionals.

I lost trust in MDs a long time ago, because of the way they hardly even look at you before ordering some standard generic disposition and shuffling you on your way (and billing you $xxx for not solving your problem).  So I could see why a lot of people don't ask a doctor about this.

Doctors can be jerks and not listen while also understanding vaccine recommendations. 

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P.S. My DH is a healthcare provider, and he has to basically open the conversation. Friends IRL have not sought out his expertise hardly at all. Sometimes I feel like saying to people, "You know DH is a healthcare provider, right?" 

He's rolled out the red carpet to invite questions, and it's not unusual for people to run things by him to see if they need to make an extra appointment for something or if they need to hit the ER, so there isn't much question that they would ask if they gave even the smallest fig about it. 

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37 minutes ago, SKL said:

I've seen different advice from different health professionals.

I lost trust in MDs a long time ago, because of the way they hardly even look at you before ordering some standard generic disposition and shuffling you on your way (and billing you $xxx for not solving your problem).  So I could see why a lot of people don't ask a doctor about this.

Sounds like you need a better doctor.

I recall you saying at some point that you were very happy with your plan (I think it was Kaiser or similar to an HMO). It struck me at the time because I have friends who were nervous about starting on a similar plan.  (They are also happy with it, by the way.)

But your above description is not normal in my high medical needs family’s experience.  We, however, do not use Kaiser or HMO type organizations. That may be part of the issue. And we are free to essentially fire any doc who treats us that way and choose a different one.

However, all that aside, I do personally have a doctor (MD) who has recommended that some patients not take the vaccine. She is a specialist and sees a combo of very ill/high needs patients.  Her recommendations vary from individual to individual.  In my family, she recommended that two of us not take the vaccine, and that two of us can, so I wouldn’t say she is anti-vax. She does the same with flu shots.  We balanced this with consultations with our other doctors, and ultimately all four of us got the vaccine.  The other docs opinions outweighed hers.  We do the same for flu shots, all of us get them despite her recommendations that only two of us should do so. 

 

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2 hours ago, Fritz said:

I have not posted anything against vaccinations. I do not think there should be mandates though for unauthorized vaccinations. Again, it is you and others trying to make this about race/skin color. 

Bolding mine.  Vaccinations are authorized.  It's an emergency authorization but it is a legal authorization.  To try and say otherwise is just trying to twist yourself in a pretzel for no useful reason.

An employer (and the federal government is a big employer) absolutely has a legal right to mandate vaccinations.  I get mandated vaccinations and tests as a teacher.  My dh gets them as a HCW.  Many other employers mandate them for employee safety and the safety of those they serve. 

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44 minutes ago, SKL said:

I lost trust in MDs a long time ago, because of the way they hardly even look at you before ordering some standard generic disposition and shuffling you on your way (and billing you $xxx for not solving your problem).  So I could see why a lot of people don't ask a doctor about this.

I know people say just ask a trusted healthcare provider. But I have very little trust in most of them.

Just 3 reasons why -- the big three-- I have more.

1. I buried my Mom this past February. The doctor put her on medicines for seizures. hen I got the report of the actual procedure, she did not have seizures. There was no reason for this strong medicine that clouded the issues she was having.

2. My Dad had a heart attack during a simple test at the hospital. We think he had an allergic reaction to a medicine he was given for the test. I heard the doctors whispering about it outside his room. No one would answer my questions. They decided he needed a valve replacement. The operating doctor decided to repair, not replace the valve. Nine months later he died because it really should have been a replacement, not a repair. He was too weak for the second surgery.

3. My son died from a medicine reaction. The side effect is listed on the medicine in England, but Big Pharma fought to keep it off the info in the US. Big Pharma won; my only son is dead.

Really, I am supposed to trust these people.

I did get my first shot this weekend. It seems like it is working. I hope it was a good decision, but please do not tell me to trust medical professionals.

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17 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Sounds like you need a better doctor.

I recall you saying at some point that you were very happy with your plan (I think it was Kaiser or similar to an HMO). It struck me at the time because I have friends who were nervous about starting on a similar plan.  (They are also happy with it, by the way.)

Ah, that is important context. That is the experience I'm familiar with with Kaiser as well. There can tend to be a cookie cutter, assembly line kind of approach for many (not all) doctors in their system.

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27 minutes ago, KSera said:

Ah, that is important context. That is the experience I'm familiar with with Kaiser as well. There can tend to be a cookie cutter, assembly line kind of approach for many (not all) doctors in their system.

A cookie cutter, assembly line approach can actually be good. One of the major problems with American medicine is how disjointed it is. You see Dr. A and and Dr B but they don't communicate with each other. Or Dr. A and Dr. B are both cardiologists but practice very differently and there's no oversight over that. There's no attempt to find best practices. 

That's changing somewhat due to pressure from payors including Medicare. Asking Dr. A why their outcomes are worse than average, etc. Of course that leads to doctors refusing to accept patients who will harm their outcomes. 

There is currently a push in large systems like Kaiser to develop best practices for conditions. Standardizing treatment in a way. It is cookie cutter but patients tend to do better because it's more evidence based. 

Kaiser, in general, has good outcomes. Where a cookie cutter approach falls apart is for conditions that are truly unusual but that isn't what most of us have. 

Editing to add a link describing what I'm getting at here. 

Fixing Health Care on the Front Lines

Quote

But no single dominant design exists, which is not surprising given that each organization has its own environment, structure, and history. For example, Virginia Mason Medical Center is a single hospital whose physicians are salaried employees. Intermountain is a network of 25 hospitals with its own health plan whose doctors are a mix of salaried employees and independent practitioners. And the Mayo Clinic has a collaborative culture that dates back to the Mayo brothers’ group practice in the late nineteenth century. An organizational design that is effective in one setting does not necessarily translate to another. More important than the specific designs are the four common principles on which they are based—the topic of the rest of this article.

 

Edited by Ordinary Shoes
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1 hour ago, Frances said:

I should have used the more generic “their healthcare professional” rather than MD because of course lots of people, like me, don’t use an MD as their primary provider or even specialist. I was just responding to Fritz using her language.
 

But no, I don’t consider advice from some random healthcare professional on YouTube or social media or anywhere else to be the same as consulting one’s own healthcare professional(s).

Our main wellness provider did not recommend the vax nor masking.  They encourage general pro-immune-system lifestyle choices.

I doubt they are the only wellness provider in that boat.

Things may have changed now that the vaxes have been essentially tested on the majority of the adult US population.  But I still doubt that 100% of healthcare professionals recommend the vax to everyone with doubts about it.

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1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Doctors can be jerks and not listen while also understanding vaccine recommendations

Yeah well, I have bad experiences with exactly that, and so do a number of people I know IRL.

People don't need a doctor to tell them that the MMR is a recommended vax.  What they may need is one who gives a damn whether and when it's the right choice for their individual kid (or self).  Even more so for the Covid vax, which is so new and not even FDA approved yet.

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2 hours ago, kbutton said:

P.S. My DH is a healthcare provider, and he has to basically open the conversation. Friends IRL have not sought out his expertise hardly at all. Sometimes I feel like saying to people, "You know DH is a healthcare provider, right?" 

He's rolled out the red carpet to invite questions, and it's not unusual for people to run things by him to see if they need to make an extra appointment for something or if they need to hit the ER, so there isn't much question that they would ask if they gave even the smallest fig about it. 

On the other hand, there is a ton of info on the web, at reliable websites such as the CDC's own.  Why ask a doctor when you can easily look it up?  I would never do that unless I thought I might need a prescription or medical procedure or an official diagnosis for some purpose.  Or if I had specific individual reasons to be worried about the vax, but then, asking someone who doesn't know my history wouldn't make sense either.

Edited by SKL
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13 minutes ago, SKL said:

Our main wellness provider did not recommend the vax nor masking.  They encourage general pro-immune-system lifestyle choices.

I doubt they are the only wellness provider in that boat.

Things may have changed now that the vaxes have been essentially tested on the majority of the adult US population.  But I still doubt that 100% of healthcare professionals recommend the vax to everyone with doubts about it.

I’m guessing you are referring to a chiropractor, based on other posts over the years? As another poster already mentioned, while they have their uses, I don’t think most would consider a chiropractor qualified to give advice on covid vaccines or masking during a pandemic.

Of course not everyone is going to be recommended to get the vaccine by their medical provider. Did anyone claim that? People are constantly saying of course those who can’t get one for medical reasons should not do so.

I would definitely be suspicious of any provider though who generally recommended against vaccines or masking, rather than thoughtfully considering each individual case. I mean there is a doctor in my state who generally advises against most childhood vaccines, including tetanus, with the resulting  infections to show for it. 
 

There are obviously people for whom it is not medically advised. But as I said previously, there is no evidence that the majority of those refusing vaccines are consulting their personal healthcare provider.

Edited by Frances
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1 hour ago, Spryte said:

Sounds like you need a better doctor.

I recall you saying at some point that you were very happy with your plan (I think it was Kaiser or similar to an HMO). It struck me at the time because I have friends who were nervous about starting on a similar plan.  (They are also happy with it, by the way.)

But your above description is not normal in my high medical needs family’s experience.  We, however, do not use Kaiser or HMO type organizations. That may be part of the issue. And we are free to essentially fire any doc who treats us that way and choose a different one.

However, all that aside, I do personally have a doctor (MD) who has recommended that some patients not take the vaccine. She is a specialist and sees a combo of very ill/high needs patients.  Her recommendations vary from individual to individual.  In my family, she recommended that two of us not take the vaccine, and that two of us can, so I wouldn’t say she is anti-vax. She does the same with flu shots.  We balanced this with consultations with our other doctors, and ultimately all four of us got the vaccine.  The other docs opinions outweighed hers.  We do the same for flu shots, all of us get them despite her recommendations that only two of us should do so.

Wow, you have a good memory.  We were forced into Kaiser for some years, when my kids were like 5yo to 9yo?  But we have used various MDs before and since.  None of them has ever given even a tenth of a second of thought as to whether a shot is right for my kids at a given time (the earlier the better from their perspective).  Even when I asked questions (that got me laughed at or berated).  And don't get me started about how a Kaiser MD gave me a file on my 6yo, pre-labeled "ADHD" before they even saw her, where the second half of the printout was about somebody else's infant.  Or how their computer spit out an "are your kids ready for KG" printout when my kids were in 1st grade.  😕  And all the times I was given generic advice that my skinny kid needed more exercise and less fat.

I'm glad that you have had better experiences.

But this is way off topic, sorry to the OP!

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10 minutes ago, SKL said:

Wow, you have a good memory.  We were forced into Kaiser for some years, when my kids were like 5yo to 9yo?  But we have used various MDs before and since.  None of them has ever given even a tenth of a second of thought as to whether a shot is right for my kids at a given time (the earlier the better from their perspective).  Even when I asked questions (that got me laughed at or berated).  And don't get me started about how a Kaiser MD gave me a file on my 6yo, pre-labeled "ADHD" before they even saw her, where the second half of the printout was about somebody else's infant.  Or how their computer spit out an "are your kids ready for KG" printout when my kids were in 1st grade.  😕  And all the times I was given generic advice that my skinny kid needed more exercise and less fat.

I'm glad that you have had better experiences.

But this is way off topic, sorry to the OP!

I only remembered because at the time your experience was positive, and I hoped it would be for my friends as well. 

It took me a long, long time to find a good doc.  She’s our primary, and we drive two hours to see her, in crazy traffic.  It’s an all day adventure.  

Experiences like yours are why people don’t trust their docs.  That’s a shame.  I hope you find someone better if you ever need one.
 

 

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54 minutes ago, SKL said:

Our main wellness provider did not recommend the vax nor masking.  They encourage general pro-immune-system lifestyle choices.

In our town, the "wellness" providers have been the ones to organize the anti-mask demonstrations and to block every Covid mitigation measure. What the heck is it with chiropractors and "wellness" providers?
My chiro didn't have masks in the office even when the numbers were highest. 
What is their rationale for not recommending masking? Do they really believe "pro-immune lifestyle choices" could have prevented half a million people from dying and millions other from being ill? 

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2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My chiro didn't have masks in the office even when the numbers were highest. 
What is their rationale for not recommending masking? Do they really believe "pro-immune lifestyle choices" could have prevented half a million people from dying and millions other from being ill? 

I didn't ask their rationale.  I did my own research and made my own decisions. 

That said, it has always been clear that good health, and especially a good vitamin D level, have highly correlated with better outcomes from Covid.  Of course we can't all just wish or act ourselves into good health.  But to the extent we can make changes, they help.  Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

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Just now, SKL said:

I didn't ask their rationale.  I did my own research and made my own decisions. 

That said, it has always been clear that good health, and especially a good vitamin D level, have highly correlated with better outcomes from Covid.  Of course we can't all just wish or act ourselves into good health.  But to the extent we can make changes, they help.  Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

Um, yes? Both my husband and I have our D levels checked at least annually - him more often as his tends to be low. Exercise, diet, sleep, stress reduction, vitamins, etc are all part of our normal wellness visits. Visit before last I was also advised to start magnesium on top of what I'm already taking, etc. 

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26 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I only remembered because at the time your experience was positive, and I hoped it would be for my friends as well. 

It took me a long, long time to find a good doc.  She’s our primary, and we drive two hours to see her, in crazy traffic.  It’s an all day adventure.  

Experiences like yours are why people don’t trust their docs.  That’s a shame.  I hope you find someone better if you ever need one.

I don't remember this positive experience with Kaiser, LOL.  Not saying it didn't happen, but it was apparently overshadowed by the many negatives I have experienced since then.  Anyhoo, our local Kaiser shut down with little notice one day, so there we were scrambling for new insurance and providers.  Fun times.

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1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Um, yes? Both my husband and I have our D levels checked at least annually - him more often as his tends to be low. Exercise, diet, sleep, stress reduction, vitamins, etc are all part of our normal wellness visits. Visit before last I was also advised to start magnesium on top of what I'm already taking, etc. 

Glad to hear it!

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

I didn't ask their rationale.  I did my own research and made my own decisions. 

That said, it has always been clear that good health, and especially a good vitamin D level, have highly correlated with better outcomes from Covid.  Of course we can't all just wish or act ourselves into good health.  But to the extent we can make changes, they help.  

I completely agree that good health correlates with better outcomes - but not to recommend masking seems irresponsible from any person who considers themselves a health care advocate/provider/whatever they label themselves. Because they should also consider the other people's health who may not have had such an enlightened provider or just be in crappy health through no fault of their own.

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3 hours ago, Frances said:

If only people were consulting MDs to make the decision. Even on this board, I don’t recall one person who hasn’t been vaccinated saying it’s because they consulted with their doctor and we’re advised against it. Now I freely admit I may have missed it. I do recall several people saying they consulted with their doctor and were advised to do it, and often given additional guidance on how to protect themselves. Certainly nothing I’ve read or seen or heard anywhere, including IRL, points to the majority of unvaccinated having consulted a doctor and been advised against it.

And I don’t think anyone here has expressed being for mandates for US citizens but against mandates for undocumented immigrants. Are they even currently being offered vaccines and turning them down in droves like citizens are in many  places in the US? If not, then perhaps a good place to start is by actually offering them the vaccines along with consultations with health care professionals who speak their languages.

I know 1 person who was advised to wait to get the vaccine. After a few months of something improving in blood work (I don’t remember what) they were advised that to go get it and did.  But that was only 1 person out of dozens.  

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22 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I completely agree that good health correlates with better outcomes - but not to recommend masking seems irresponsible from any person who considers themselves a health care advocate/provider/whatever they label themselves. Because they should also consider the other people's health who may not have had such an enlightened provider or just be in crappy health through no fault of their own.

Not to mention, it takes time to get D levels up. It takes time to lose weight and not be obese - often years! A mask takes seconds. it is something to do to protect yourself NOW. Same with a vaccine. 

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34 minutes ago, SKL said:

I didn't ask their rationale.  I did my own research and made my own decisions. 

That said, it has always been clear that good health, and especially a good vitamin D level, have highly correlated with better outcomes from Covid.  Of course we can't all just wish or act ourselves into good health.  But to the extent we can make changes, they help.  Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

Not rare. It was even on the National news. As well as recommended by my MD. 

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43 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't remember this positive experience with Kaiser, LOL.  Not saying it didn't happen, but it was apparently overshadowed by the many negatives I have experienced since then.  Anyhoo, our local Kaiser shut down with little notice one day, so there we were scrambling for new insurance and providers.  Fun times.

Ha, well, you seemed pleased with it that particular day, but maybe it was fleeting.  I was happy to hear of one person with a good experience so it stuck with me. It must have been years ago.

FWIW, my doctor regularly tests D levels, among a slew of other things, and we all have a boatload of supplements.  But I’m going to just come out and say that her waiting list for new patients is a year +, and there’s a reason we drive two hours to see her.  She’s special, and we all know it, not because of Vit D but because she is an LLMD.

What made you decide to get vaccinated, then?  It obviously wasn’t your doc.  Are you comfortable sharing?

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5 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Ha, well, you seemed pleased with it that particular day, but maybe it was fleeting.  I was happy to hear of one person with a good experience so it stuck with me. It must have been years ago.

FWIW, my doctor regularly tests D levels, among a slew of other things, and we all have a boatload of supplements.  But I’m going to just come out and say that her waiting list for new patients is a year +, and there’s a reason we drive two hours to see her.  She’s special, and we all know it, not because of Vit D but because she is an LLMD.

What made you decide to get vaccinated, then?  It obviously wasn’t your doc.  Are you comfortable sharing?

I was always hoping the most at-risk people could get vaxed to protect themselves.  When I realized a number of at-risk people weren't getting vaxed due to fear of side effects, I decided to get the vax to help protect them.

(FTR, my provider didn't say nobody should vax or mask.  But I could tell by certain words and actions that they weren't into either.  I never asked their opinion on Covid, because I know their general views on vaxes, and I have my own views.  That said, it is likely some of their clients haven't followed all the CDC recommendations.)

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2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

A cookie cutter, assembly line approach can actually be good. One of the major problems with American medicine is how disjointed it is. You see Dr. A and and Dr B but they don't communicate with each other. Or Dr. A and Dr. B are both cardiologists but practice very differently and there's no oversight over that. There's no attempt to find best practices. 

What you are describing is evidence-based medicine, but I think what people experience as cookie cutter can be a variety of things:

  • Doctor prescribed xyz that I am allergic to/interacts with my other meds/etc. 
  • Doctor has a favorite diagnosis or treatment plan learned in med school 20 years ago, and when I bring in articles about my concerns, I am brushed off
  • I asked for certain tests to be run, and my doctor agreed but then did a bait and switch to what they usually do and refused to make it right
  • When the first test didn't show anything was wrong, the doctor took a look at pudgy, stressed out mom and decided everything from there out was in my head
  • "I always prescribe an antibiotic for that"
  • "I will only prescribe these two meds for that condition even though there are many more to choose from, and many people need to try several before finding a winner"
  • "Aneurysms don't run in families (they do), and I am the doctor, so I must know better"

And many other things like that. 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

On the other hand, there is a ton of info on the web, at reliable websites such as the CDC's own.  Why ask a doctor when you can easily look it up?  I would never do that unless I thought I might need a prescription or medical procedure or an official diagnosis for some purpose.  Or if I had specific individual reasons to be worried about the vax, but then, asking someone who doesn't know my history wouldn't make sense either.

I know a lot of people who are purposefully reading those sites and putting their own spin on them based on their own biases. I can't tell how many people have cited the CDC and taken things out of context during this pandemic. 

Sometimes professional advice helps contextualize what you read as well. I did a ton of research on something specific that came up with me a few months ago, and my doctor had access to better information that was more up-to-date. Sometimes you need a subscription to read better specialized information. Some of these journals cost exorbitant amounts of money and come out twice per year (I used to work for a scientific publisher and had access when I did). You don't find those on google. 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Wow, you have a good memory.  We were forced into Kaiser for some years, when my kids were like 5yo to 9yo?  But we have used various MDs before and since.  None of them has ever given even a tenth of a second of thought as to whether a shot is right for my kids at a given time (the earlier the better from their perspective).  Even when I asked questions (that got me laughed at or berated).  And don't get me started about how a Kaiser MD gave me a file on my 6yo, pre-labeled "ADHD" before they even saw her, where the second half of the printout was about somebody else's infant.  Or how their computer spit out an "are your kids ready for KG" printout when my kids were in 1st grade.  😕  And all the times I was given generic advice that my skinny kid needed more exercise and less fat.

I'm glad that you have had better experiences.

But this is way off topic, sorry to the OP!

I can't help the laughing. It's a pet peeve of mine. They won't all do that. I had to look really hard to find a primary care doctor that wasn't that way, but I had specialists in the meantime who were all really nice. I recently found a primary doc that is super nice via my optometrist. 

Some of what you're talking about though might be the fault of office personnel, which can be a reason to switch, but should be addressed by talking to your doctor about the errors first. 

Being annoyed that everyone gets diet advice that 90% of people need is silly. Being annoyed if you are wrongly targeted for this information is another story; in my world, I see that more with insurance companies. My son takes a blood pressure medication for an aneurysm, but the insurance companies LOVE to send information on how he can lose weight (he's underweight). That's targeted. I hear about people whose insurance company sends BP cuffs and cool stuff, but mine just wants to harp on my about controlling my extremely well-controlled asthma (my rescue inhalers tend to expire, and I don't require a maintenance inhaler). That's targeted. Sending me a list of tests recommended for people my age that might include listing a mammo when I just had one is the office trying to be helpful.

41 minutes ago, SKL said:

Are MDs recommending that their patients get their vitamin D tested and/or take vitamin D supplements?  Or any other lifestyle choices that could improve outcomes?  Because that is rare IME.

Again, you need a better one. I had one that recommended taking D but not testing for it to know if you actually need it or if the supplements are working. I no longer see her for that a million other reasons.

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