The “vaccination divide” in the US

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I don't have the link handy, but I saw documented cases of spread by vaccinated people before that study. Also, we have documentation that they have similar viral loads early in the disease course - why wouldn't they be able to spread it?

Oh, I have no doubt that there is spread by vaccinated people and that with delta, the viral loads are similar early in the disease when they do catch it, I just mean that the pattern of what that then looks like in the real world and how that translates to an efficacy at preventing infection number might be different in other circumstances. That was a very crowded event, with a lot of physical contact involving saliva, to be blunt about it. That's why I don't think it extrapolates to the average risk. The 3/4 were vaccinated number is also meaningless without the context that P-town is at close to 100% of those over 12 vaccinated (which is amazing). I think a hopeful thing about the situation is to see how quickly the outbreak ended. Their positivity peaked at 15% on 7/15, two weeks after the event started, and was down to 4.8% just two weeks later. That seems to me like a different pattern than we would usually expect with a big outbreak like that in an unvaccinated population. Just look at Australia and NSW in particular trying to get a handle on the current outbreak, and even with all their lockdown and test and trace strategies, they're struggling in a population that is much less vaccinated.

 

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

This article doesn't have numbers for kids, but it does state that not one of the under 18s who needed to be hospitalized for Covid were vaccinated (part were under 12, part were just not vaccinated). 

 

Most of the children currently hospitalized were not vaccinated against COVID-19, many because they are too young for a shot.

But others who are 12 and older had not been inoculated either, hospital officials said.

None of the teens hospitalized with COVID-19 at Children’s Hospital over the last two weeks were vaccinated, Rye Burch said.

https://news.yahoo.com/sc-hospital-capacity-covid-19-171846096.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall

Part of the reason children's wards are full of children is RSV (which is having a resurgence as people get together) and delayed vaccinations for measles/whooping cough/etc. 

A simultaneous uptick in cases of respiratory syncytial virus, or RSV, which can be serious for infants and older adults, and a pandemic-driven drop in childhood immunization rates that has left more kids vulnerable to vaccine-preventable illnesses like measles and whooping cough has created a perfect storm of disease for children, said Dr. Caughman Taylor, senior medical director at Prisma Health Children’s Hospital–Midlands.

If there's a measles outbreak, why isn't that the news?

I agree that shutdowns have delayed some kids' vaccinations and other healthcare.  Can folks down there take their kids to drugstores to get routine vaccinations?  That's what I would do.

[freesia]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Oh, I have no doubt that there is spread by vaccinated people and that with delta, the viral loads are similar early in the disease when they do catch it, I just mean that the pattern of what that then looks like in the real world and how that translates to an efficacy at preventing infection number might be different in other circumstances. That was a very crowded event, with a lot of physical contact involving saliva, to be blunt about it. That's why I don't think it extrapolates to the average risk. The 3/4 were vaccinated number is also meaningless without the context that P-town is at close to 100% of those over 12 vaccinated (which is amazing). I think a hopeful thing about the situation is to see how quickly the outbreak ended. Their positivity peaked at 15% on 7/15, two weeks after the event started, and was down to 4.8% just two weeks later. That seems to me like a different pattern than we would usually expect with a big outbreak like that in an unvaccinated population. Just look at Australia and NSW in particular trying to get a handle on the current outbreak, and even with all their lockdown and test and trace strategies, they're struggling in a population that is much less vaccinated.

 

Yes. This.

[freesia]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

If there's a measles outbreak, why isn't that the news?

I agree that shutdowns have delayed some kids' vaccinations and other healthcare.  Can folks down there take their kids to drugstores to get routine vaccinations?  That's what I would do.

There isn't a measles outbreak. https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

[SKL]

Another potential issue brought up by some of my healthcare worker friends is that too much strong-arming on medical folks could create or exacerbate shortages.

The other day, someone posted a photo of nurses protesting with signs:  "We spent ___ months taking care of Covid patients with no protection, and now they are threatening to fire us?"

And today, another friend predicted that there will be a shortage due to a healthcare staff requirement to test multiple times per week if you aren't vaccinated.

Personally I'm not against a requirement to test, vax, or use some specified (based on science) level of barrier if you work with patients.  But as has been said before, there are more than a few workers in that field who will protest a vax-or-test rule, possibly by not showing up for work.

[SKL]

9 minutes ago, freesia said:

There isn't a measles outbreak. https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

OK so I am wondering why they mentioned measles in the article linked above.

[TechWife]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

I still would like to know how many of those kids were in the hospital for other reasons and tested for Covid.  Because I know at least some hospitals are testing every person for Covid.  Symptomatic or not.  Children's ICU beds are full, I understand that, but how many children's ICU beds are there per population, and are there still the same # of available children's ICU beds now as normal, or have they switched resources away from kids' ICU to accommodate increase in adults needing ICU beds?  Or put another way, what is the raw number and % of child population who is in the children's ICU for no reason other than severe Covid effects?

To me, the statement that the kids' ICU is at capacity really tells me very little.  Other than there is an intent to alarm.  Give me more info and let me decide if there is a legitimate need to be alarmed for all kids.  (Because let's be honest, our media thrive on blowing things up for ratings and clicks.)

It isn’t just about the beds, it’s about the equipment. Some equipment for children is differentiated to take size into consideration. A lot of supplies are differentiated for size. The differentiations are made out of necessity, not convenience.

Additionally, peds is a specialty all its own  - care is differentiated according to physical size, physical development, behavioral development, not to mention the nature of the illness itself - there are just some illnesses that children get more often than adults, and some that adults get more often than children and some that impact the different ages in different ways. This means you need staff that knows the details of caring for children - both regular hospital care and critical care, which are again each their own specialty. Staff exhaustion & staff shortages are a real concern. Yes, some hospitals have been “all hands on deck” during this crisis with people serving outside their area of specialization, but that isn’t the ideal and it isn’t an operational goal hospitals have - it’s a backup plan. 

The desired bed availability rate is something that has a lot of variables and there is not a one size fits all calculation for it. 

If the reason for the initial presentation at the hospital is for something other than COVID and the patient tests positive for covid, they must go to a Covid unit in order to minimize risk to non-Covid patients and staff. They are, out of necessity, considered to be Covid patients.  So, in regards to bed count, they aren’t taking a Covid bed that would otherwise remain empty. They DO have Covid.

In addition to Covid, children still get sick and need to be in the hospital - they need surgeries and treatment for illnesses & accidents . We need beds for them, too. Additionally there is a spike in RSV in the southeast right now. A lot of babies get hospitalized with it. It’s not uncommon for them to need some type of respiratory support, such as oxygen or sometimes a ventilator. Add that need to the respiratory needs of COVID.

Traditional calendar school hasn’t even started yet. 

[freesia]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

OK so I am wondering why they mentioned measles in the article linked above.

All I can think is that they were listing the types of vaccinations that were missed, not specific to why kids were in the hospital.  It's sloppy.  Maybe there are other outbreaks, idk.

[Longtime Lurker]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

re the unbearable heaviness of overwhelming scale

You are right. You cannot change the tide.

You are already right about many many deaths, and you may well be right about our way of life changing permanently.  (Widespread, quick & cheap international air travel, for instance, may well be out of reach for a long long time.)

We

are

not

in

control. 

CDC is not suggesting we are, nor is the Israeli government or Pfizer or President Biden or the Main Stream Media or anyone else. Certainly no one on this board.

 

 

That might have been me.

And I agree that for problems of COVID-scale magnitude, our individual actions can't change the overall trajectory of the problem.  Same with climate change, global hunger, nuclear arms race, other similarly scaled issues. 

Collective action can effect big scaled change -- collective action eliminated smallpox, sharply bent the incidence of polio and a handful of other miserable diseases, vastly improved treatment and odds of surviving a large number of other diseases.  Humans have held the technological capability of destroying the earth entirely since the 1940s and yet  have managed, through a combination of public policy and dumb luck to have lurched on for going on 80 years without doing so.

Some folks are, by disposition and skill set, gifted at translating individual effort toward collective work, through science, politics, activism, writing, art. 

A lot of us have trouble doing so.  The scale is too big, the work is too Sisyphean, the time is too long, the payoff is too invisible.  It is overwhelming.

I've posted this before: Ruth Messinger reverts often to the idea that we cannot retreat into the luxury of being overwhelmed.  We all experience moments when we're too overwhelmed to do much beyond getting up in the morning and slogging through the motions; that's part of being human.  But over the course of months, years, a lifetime, it is incumbent upon us -- for the sake of our own selves, our families, our communities, the strangers in our midst, ethics, in her worldview God -- to figure out some small way to leave the earth a teeny-tiny bit better than how we found it.  We are not expected to complete the work, but neither may we refrain from picking it up and starting.

 

But none of that big-scale challenge is where you seem to be *in this moment.*

Where our individual actions definitely CAN make a difference is here, at this level.  The other thread you started, about finding "productive" ways to fill your time and absorb your energy, is excellent.

COVID sucks.  There is no redeeming silver lining.  None of the small bits of light it has forced upon us -- a rethinking of what most matters, a better appreciation of real life contact over flickering screens, a recognition that more types of work can be accomplished more remotely than we once knew, better tech skills, emergent businesses able to adapt to and flourish in unexpected opportunities, completed craft projects, newly constructed chicken famrs and gardens and fire pits -- none of those things are worth the costs we bore and are continuing to bear.

And yet, it is also true that we have learned things.  I learned to ZOOM.  My octogenarian mother learned to ZOOM.  My octogenarian mother's octogenarian book group learned (I won't lie: painfully, and late) to ZOOM. We learned to live off deliveries, to project movies outside, to play scattergories online, to do the daily NYT spelling bee puzzle competitively across friend groups, to carry on civic group board meetings virtually, to "attend" author lectures and poetry readings on line, to convert some old work to virtual and pick up new activities outdoors / spaced / ventilated.

None of which -- to your point -- changed the trajectory of the virus.

But it very much DID change the experience of living through it.  Our individual actions very much DID affect our ability to ENDURE this terrible horrible no good very bad time.

 

Also: Therapy helps.  I speak from experience. An awful lot of us have spent time in that hole.  Almost always, the hole starts with, I am not in a hole. I do not need help.

 

 

That said,

You absolutely have a right to be frustrated. 

Also to express it here on this board.

I am, myself, at the moment, pretty d@mned irritated at where we are with Delta, with how some policymakers and many of my fellow Americans are approaching public policies, with what imminent school re-opening is looking like.  And I express that on this board on occasion.

I would only encourage you to find OTHER places, besides these boards, to express yourself.

Because however valuable these boards are -- and they are -- there is no substitute for real life connections.  Folks here are smart, funny, perceptive, up on current developments, wise beyond measure. I've learned SOOOOOOO much here.  Nonetheless, it's still only an imaginary space populated by virtual and mostly anonymous strangers. For your own sake: find real ones, as well.

Thank you. I have really appreciated your posts over the past year and a half.

[TechWife]

22 minutes ago, SKL said:

1) We still don't know how many "half" is.

2) How are they defining "preexisting health problems"?  Before my friend's daughter died from a car accident, she was in the ICU and didn't have any "preexisting health problems."  There are lots of acute reasons for kids to be in the ICU.

3) And another question - how old are these children who are in the ICU only because of Covid effects and had no "preexisting health problems"?  How many are under 12?

 

1) Half of the beds being taken by Covid means half of the beds would be empty if it’s weren’t for Covid. Not that other patients would fill them, necessarily, but that they would be empty. This means that whatever number of ICU beds that are typically available for car accidents, surgeries, RSV, etc. in that community are not available.  Lack of available beds for any reason is a serious public health concern. 
 

2) Yes - which is why it’s important to keep tabs on Covid numbers to keep the beds available. People in the ICU with DKA, for example, could be presenting with a new health problem or a crisis for a known problem - either way, they need an ICU bed. I’m not sure why pre existing problems would come into play, because when you need an ICU bed, you need one. 
 

3) Under the age of 18 to be in PICU. Again, pre existing health problems aren’t the issue - bed availability is the issue. If beds are in short supply, it is wise to take precautions to lower the risk as much as possible because you don’t want to be the person who has to be rerouted to another hospital, nor do yo want your family, friends or even strangers. 

[Matryoshka]

59 minutes ago, SKL said:

I still would like to know how many of those kids were in the hospital for other reasons and tested for Covid.  Because I know at least some hospitals are testing every person for Covid.  Symptomatic or not.  Children's ICU beds are full, I understand that, but how many children's ICU beds are there per population, and are there still the same # of available children's ICU beds now as normal, or have they switched resources away from kids' ICU to accommodate increase in adults needing ICU beds?  Or put another way, what is the raw number and % of child population who is in the children's ICU for no reason other than severe Covid effects?

To me, the statement that the kids' ICU is at capacity really tells me very little.  Other than there is an intent to alarm.  Give me more info and let me decide if there is a legitimate need to be alarmed for all kids.  (Because let's be honest, our media thrive on blowing things up for ratings and clicks.)

So, you think the kids' ICU, which I'm guessing normally has fairly constant numbers over time, just coincidentally became overcapacity with bike accidents or whatever non-Covid reasons kids are 'normally' in the ICU for, and the bike accidents all had asymptomatic Covid as well as concussions, causing the ICU to be coincidentally overfilled at the exact same time as the Delta wave hit?  And the doctors in the articles that say these kids filling their ICU are really sick to the point of needing ICU care because of Covid are just ... confused about why the kids are really there?  Ignoring some other mass injury event that's causing all the pedi ICUs in the state to be popping?

[Dmmetler]

https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/two-children-in-memphis-died-from-covid-19-over-the-weekend/522-5957eba2-9cc8-46f3-8a05-f867c6e6e477?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_Local_Memphis&fbclid=IwAR3wotOXduwwtHqZCkLs6HW3zT6yA311tsptyrSCTJ_dvIaUp8SK1DCtFy8

 

LeBonheur is a dedicated pediatric hospital, plus has pediatric units at other hospitals, minor medical centers, and affliated pediatricians. 

[whitestavern]

I wish they would just give numbers. Has anyone seen actual figures? How many kids are in the hospital because of Covid? How many under and over 12? How many vaxxed vs nonvaxxed? Same with adults. I know a super high percentage of unvaxxed are in the hospital, but what are the actual numbers? This kind of information would be really helpful. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

I wish they would just give numbers. Has anyone seen actual figures? How many kids are in the hospital because of Covid? How many under and over 12? How many vaxxed vs nonvaxxed? Same with adults. I know a super high percentage of unvaxxed are in the hospital, but what are the actual numbers? This kind of information would be really helpful. 

I’ve seen numbers for specific hospitals. They’ll say things like how many kids they had a week ago, how many they have now, over or under 12 and how many over 12 are vaccinated (so far all of those I’ve seen say they have no vaccinated pediatric Covid cases). I’ll look for an example. 
 

Eta: here are two news stories from today. The majority of time when I’ve heard stats, it’s from lead pediatricians at various children’s hospitals giving press conferences with updates, so that data is harder for me to pull up.

https://www.nola.com/news/coronavirus/article_50f68f3e-f47c-11eb-8a5f-8f45ae7e476a.html
“Children's Hospital New Orleans hasn't had an open intensive care bed in weeks, an official said Monday as he encouraged people to get vaccinated amid the latest COVID-19 surge.

Dr. Mark Kline, physician-in-chief at Children’s Hospital New Orleans, called the delta variant an infectious disease specialist's “worst nightmare” and said that every pediatric facility in the state is “absolutely full.”

Children's has had as many as 20 patients hospitalized on a single day with COVID, he said. Prior to this surge, seven was the highest number at Children's for the pandemic. “

https://www.localmemphis.com/mobile/article/news/health/coronavirus/two-children-in-memphis-died-from-covid-19-over-the-weekend/522-5957eba2-9cc8-46f3-8a05-f867c6e6e477

MPHIS, Tenn. — Two children have died from COVID-19 complications over the weekend. Le Bonheur Children’s Hospital confirmed the news Tuesday. A doctor said the number of kids with COVID is rising.

“One of them was in our intensive care unit and then one of them was in an outlining facility that we serve,” said Dr. Nick Hysmith, the director of Infection Prevention at Le Bonheur Children’s Hospital.

Dr. Hysmith said during the peak of the pandemic last year a few kids were admitted from time to time. Usually, kids who came into the hospital for other reasons and were found to be COVID positive.

“What’s really changed over the last week and a half is we’ve started seeing an increase in the number of kids being admitted with acute COVID.”

The hospital has seen a significant 30% positivity rate among patients as they are screened in the emergency department. Hysmith said one factor is low vaccination rates.

“The delta variant is playing a big role in this,” said the infectious disease specialist. “We know that’s the dominant strain in our community. We know that’s it’s easily transmitted.”

Eight kids are currently COVID positive at Le Bonheur several in critical care. Doctors are encouraging parents to get their child vaccinated if they are 12 and over and to continue frequent handwashing.

“We must mask our children when we go back to school,” said Dr. Hysmith. “I think that’s the biggest thing I would tell parents if we want to protect them.”

Edited August 4, 2021 by KSera

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

What's the connection between RSV and COVID? 

Are you asking? I think the only connection is the fact that there is this strange summer surge of RSV as everything has opened up all at once, when normally this would happen in the winter. A lot of babies and toddlers all encountering RSV for the first time all at the same time.

[Stacia]

This may have some of the stats/data that folks are asking about/searching for. (I have not fully read her linked page yet but thought I would go ahead and post it.)

 

https://twitter.com/MonicaGandhi9/status/1422701667355557892?s=20

 

[Frances]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

Another potential issue brought up by some of my healthcare worker friends is that too much strong-arming on medical folks could create or exacerbate shortages.

The other day, someone posted a photo of nurses protesting with signs:  "We spent ___ months taking care of Covid patients with no protection, and now they are threatening to fire us?"

And today, another friend predicted that there will be a shortage due to a healthcare staff requirement to test multiple times per week if you aren't vaccinated.

Personally I'm not against a requirement to test, vax, or use some specified (based on science) level of barrier if you work with patients.  But as has been said before, there are more than a few workers in that field who will protest a vax-or-test rule, possibly by not showing up for work.

Too much noncompliance in the general public with mask and social distancing mandates and/or requests and vaccine requests has already caused lots of healthcare workers to burn out and quit or retire early. Also, many healthcare workers don’t want to work in close proximity to others who are not vaccinated.

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Plum said:

My newspaper had an article this weekend where they interviewed the CMO's of local hospitals and the Hospital Association. They went into detail as to why hospitals are full and it's not just covid. They said there is a huge amount of postponed care that people were finally getting taken care of and catching up filled beds more than usual. Then there's a staffing shortage. Nurses and HCW are retiring and finding other work and we already had a shortage prepandemic. You also have staff that are out sick or recovering. As we learned before, you can add all the beds you want, but if you don't have the equipment or the staff it doesn't do much good. Then they said there's the usual summer spike in heat stroke, violence and car accidents.  Yes, hospitals are full, but there are more reasons than covid. 

They didn't give any pediatric data other than mentioning they are seeing more younger cohort (20+) vs older (65+). 

https://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODN/ReviewJournal/shared/ShowArticle.aspx?doc=LVRJ/2021/08/01&entity=Ar00102&sk=E23AE175&mode=text

It’s similar here in that hospitals and emergency rooms are full not just due to covid. The last few weekend every emergency room in the state has been on divert status. But, covid hospitalizations are at their highest level since last winter and the delta surge is just getting started. The vast majority of hospitalized patients are not vaccinated and they are reporting more younger, sicker patients than in previous surges. There was no specific info provided on children.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, whitestavern said:

I wish they would just give numbers. Has anyone seen actual figures? How many kids are in the hospital because of Covid? How many under and over 12? How many vaxxed vs nonvaxxed? Same with adults. I know a super high percentage of unvaxxed are in the hospital, but what are the actual numbers? This kind of information would be really helpful. 

At least here, you can find out those numbers on the state dashboard, although I don’t know about specific to children as I haven’t looked. There are also daily emails you can get from the state that give info by county, including whether or not someone who died had underlying conditions. And whenever there are surges, such as now, most local newspapers start reporting statistics. Perhaps now that children seem to be more affected by the delta variant they will start special reporting on children?

Edited August 4, 2021 by Frances

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, I was asking. I'd read the claim that it was due to things opening up but wondered if there was more to it. I've read about co-infections where children have both RSV and COVID. 

It’s important to be aware of this because both illnesses involve the respiratory system and can potentially use the same resources, such as oxygen, equipment, medications, just to name a few. This is specialized equipment that is not available in every room and they are a limited number of equipment/doses/supplies available at any time. They potential is there for them to run out of what they need to take care of all of their patients at the same time. Then the availability of medical professionals with the needed skill set to care for the patients has to be addressed. Pediatrics is a specialty of its own and then within that there is a sub specialty of critical care. Hospitals staff will quickly become exhausted in peds like the adult units have been for over a year now. If it’s anything like last year, we will see an increase in peds providers getting covid and also an increase in overtime, increased stress, burnout, exhaustion With the added knowledge that much of this could have been prevented - I can’t imagine what some of them are thinking. Oh - and very shortly now they will be sending their own children to school and politicians are out of their lane making public health decisions about schools that they don’t have the training or knowledge to make. 

It’s a mess, to put it mildly. But, a year and a half into this with a vaccine now available, we shouldn’t be having to do this - we know better and should be doing better. Collectively, we know what to do, but not everyone is doing what needs to be done. 

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, TechWife said:

I’ve  watched He West Wing all the way through three times since Feb. 2020. I had never watched it before, either. It’s a show full of hope in unexpected ways. 

Me too! I've been watching the West Wing also. I'm almost done with season 5. So positive and hopeful. 

[Frances]

2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Me too! I've been watching the West Wing also. I'm almost done with season 5. So positive and hopeful. 

I missed it when it originally aired due to not having TV at the time. I started it a few years ago, but eventually had to stop, because it was so depressing compared to the actual political reality at the time. I need to check it out again, as I’ve been looking for a new series.

[Laura Corin]

11 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

DD and I were talking yesterday about the fact that the nearest thing to something like WW2 or the bubonic plague or Spanish flu epidemic that has touched the past two generations (hers and mine) was 911. And that, comparatively, was a ripple - only first responder and military families were directly touched by that (in a hardship kind of way, iykwim). I asked her to remember how long WW2 lasted and we thought about how ill equipped we (the individuals of our nation) are to handle long term hardship. We need to reach deep and pull out the deeper stuff we are made of to get through this. 

Interesting thought.  The UK, which was bombed during WWII, so there is fairly recent memory of mass civilian trauma, has not experienced good leadership during Covid but perhaps more solidarity?

[ieta_cassiopeia]

6 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Interesting thought.  The UK, which was bombed during WWII, so there is fairly recent memory of mass civilian trauma, has not experienced good leadership during Covid but perhaps more solidarity?

That has helped with the very oldest (who were around during or immediately after World War II) - particularly important since people tend to be more careful with health interventions (e.g. vaccines) as they age.

There's also been a feeling among the youngest that climate change constitutes a different sort of emergency - at once more diffuse and less likely to get good political leadership than the "mass public traumas" cited. So they're more willing to do the right thing in the face of leaders not doing it, but don't have the previous experience of traumatic events.

The group in the middle hasn't felt this way about climate change even if they ideologically believe it's a major issue (they've been more likely to think it's one issue among many, rather than anything qualitatively different) and also don't have experience of mass public trauma (except in London, but there we have the additional complication of unusually low trust). This is the age group where most of the pressure to not be in solidarity has come from.

That said, I'd say in the UK that people who are either too poor to afford to take all the protective measures, or who are rich and aiming to please that group specifically, are a bigger factor in non-solidarity than age. It's hard to follow advice if it requires changes that aren't even possible (social distancing has been the biggest problem here - masks were gracelessly tolerated until the leadership said it was considering making them optional).

[whitestavern]

8 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Really helpful for what? We're in the thick of things now so it's probably too early to have good numbers. How long did it take us to good statistics for the first COVID surge? 

I agree that good data is necessary for an invasive precaution against COVID like the vaccine. But do we need good data to mandate masks in school and ask schools to take precautions to limit contact between children? 

Online schooling is not a good option and should be off the table without better data about risks to children, IMHO. 

Oh, I'm just talking about for me, personally. Not sure why that information should be difficult to get. Hospitals have the info - they could share it on their websites or states could collect the data and share on their Covid dashboards. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 hours ago, whitestavern said:

Oh, I'm just talking about for me, personally. Not sure why that information should be difficult to get. Hospitals have the info - they could share it on their websites or states could collect the data and share on their Covid dashboards. 

I was poking around on the internet last night and discovered my county’s Covid dashboard. It was much more detailed than the state’s and even had data broken down by every town in the county. YMMV but previously I had only looked at the state dashboard and this had so much more information. 

[Frances]

Glad to see this is happening. Not only will it help protect the residents, but also the workers.

https://apnews.com/article/business-health-coronavirus-pandemic-nursing-homes-81c2cd6c32c00923a14a592ce2e61532

[BlsdMama]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

Glad to see this is happening. Not only will it help protect the residents, but also the workers.

https://apnews.com/article/business-health-coronavirus-pandemic-nursing-homes-81c2cd6c32c00923a14a592ce2e61532

I will never take joy in seeing a government mandate forced medical injections. Never.

[Frances]

14 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

I will never take joy in seeing a government mandate forced medical injections. Never.

The government is not mandating anything here. Private employers are. And no one is being forced to get an injection. They are free to find a different job.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Frances

[Matryoshka]

15 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

I will never take joy in seeing a government mandate forced medical injections. Never.

Health care workers have had a huge number of vaccinations required for ages.  One of my kids currently has a job working as a janitor at a hospital, and was required to get an MMR shot before they could work there (only had one measles in past because sibling with same health condition had seizures after first measles shot, doctor confirmed).  No exception for stinking measles.

Meanwhile, a coworker went in twice to clean the Covid ward and used a broken headgear PPE thingy (twice!), came out and finished the shift all over other areas of the hospital and didn't report the breach (or the faulty equipment).  My kid has reported him after he was bragging about this and it was no big deal because he couldn't get it (he probably takes magic vitamins).  He is still unvaxed.

But really, if MMR (and HepB, and all the other zillions of vaxes for much milder and non-pandemic illnesses) have been mandated for years, this is the one we want to get all upset about?  Meanwhile, idiot coworker has breached all the protocols in the Covid ward.  Because the exact same people who won't get the vax are running about scoffing at things like proper PPE in a Covid ward.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Matryoshka

[Matryoshka]

19 minutes ago, Plum said:

So if you are forced to choose between your job and the vaccine by your employer and you develop Guillain-Barre that causes permanent nerve damage and requires physical therapy, can you sue your employer? Is your job and healthcare protected and paid for by your employer while you recover? Will they pay for your time off? 

Good question, but this has been the case for ages, so I guess the answer would be the same as for all the other vaccines.  This is not untrodden ground, this is old hat.

I was actually very concerned about the MMR vax for this kid.  Their sister had 3 grand mal seizures after the measles vax.  They ended up having more side effects from it than the Pfizer they got, but just normal after-vax stuff that went away.

The hospital is going to start requiring Covid vaccination for its workers, but apparently they have till October to come into compliance.  My kid told me the head of the OR (not sure if a doc or admin?) is going to leave because of this, as they have a legit condition they are worried could contraindicate getting the vaccine.  But they're not getting an exception, and they are free to quit, so they are.  

Edited August 5, 2021 by Matryoshka

[KSera]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

I will never take joy in seeing a government mandate forced medical injections. Never.

This is a private business and not the government, and no one is giving any forced injections. People still get to choose. Of all the professions someone is poorly suited for if they have a medical reason to not be able to be vaccinated against a highly contagious disease, working in a nursing home is probably the top one. There are jobs I’m not suited for either; not everyone is physically or mentally cut out for every job. I had to have the Hep B series when it was still quite new in order to do even my internships in healthcare. That was two decades ago at this point (there were others required as well, but I had already had to have those ones in order to go to school at all). 

[Spryte]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

So if you are forced to choose between your job and the vaccine by your employer and you develop Guillain-Barre that causes permanent nerve damage and requires physical therapy, can you sue your employer? Is your job and healthcare protected and paid for by your employer while you recover? Will they pay for your time off? 

 

I have been thinking about this in reverse.  If you are very locked down, working from home, low exposure and your employer requires that you travel, and you contract Covid while on business travel … Same questions. And if you develop long Covid, will they supplement your disability? The answers are all no, as far as I know.

What I’ve arrived at is that the travel is a requirement of the job, and if one can’t meet that requirement because of risk assessment or other reasons, then finding another job is the best option.  If travel is necessary and one can’t or won’t travel, then another job might be a better fit.

It may be that some people find themselves coming to the same conclusions re: vaccines.  They can opt to find an employer who doesn’t require a vaccine. Or they can get a medical exemption, if they qualify.

 

 

[Spryte]

Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

I googled this. If an employer forces an employee to get a vaccine and the employee is injured, the employee may qualify for worker's comp. If the employee qualifies for worker's comp, they are usually prohibited from suing the employer. 

This is from a Florida law firm's website. 

CAN YOU GET WORKERS’ COMPENSATION FOR A BAD REACTION TO A COVID VACCINE?

 

That seems good.  Maybe that will alleviate some people’s worries a bit.

I wonder about the travel issue, but suspect it would not fall under worker’s comp since one could conceivably contract Covid while not on travel.

[Frances]

And where is the concern for some of the most vulnerable among us, people living in nursing homes? It seems almost inhumane to not do everything possible to protect them. It’s not like most of them can just move to a nursing home where all staff is vaccinated.

[TravelingChris]

On 8/2/2021 at 2:26 PM, Pam in CT said:

re frustration

Yeah, I confess to a fair degree of mounting irritation. A year ago -- when I truly did NOT expect a vaccine nearly as efficacious OR as early -- my state of mind was this is really really hard, this sucks for all sorts of reasons, but we can pull together and figure out how to make it endurable.

And then, back in April-May, my heart soared with hope. I really felt like I could glimpse light at the end of the tunnel.  The tunnel was still LONG to be sure, and I expected modifications around stadium games and theater and plane travel to remain for some time, and certainly I did not expect to be able to hop on a plane for an international vacation in the foreseeable future. But extended indoor contact with extended family and vaccinated friends, restaurant dining, domestic travel by car, in-person classes for my university / grad school kids: all on the table. Nearly Normal, sustainable over a long haul.

And now I feel like all that has been SNATCHED.  I'm on my synagogue's board. We are at this very moment rethinking indoor High Holy Days. Because of the CHILDREN. Who are bearing the heaviest load this time through: they know they are now at greater risk than their vaccinated relatives, they know they aren't able to choose vaccination themselves, those (like my own <12 niece and nephew) within families where all the other members are already vaccinated know that their families are holding back on (eating in restaurants, travel, whatever) because of the risk to them, as Delta runs rampant. It is a lot, for little kids to hold.

A year ago, I felt extremely conscious of how comparatively fortunate my own family was, how relatively able we were to carry on work and learning, our ability to rely on delivered food and other things.  It sucked, but I felt, then, that ethics and duty called for making the best of this plague inflicted upon us.

I'm a lot grumpier this time through.

Because this time through it is, largely, preventable. 

 

That is me too.  I don't want to lose my medical options againjust because of the unvaccinated.

[TravelingChris]

On 7/31/2021 at 4:01 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

Taking temps at the door was something done very early in the pandemic.  It was "one thing" we could do when there wasn't much we could do at that time.  But it was never the best thing we could do.  The biggest thing we could do back then was masking when out but see how much pushback and even violence there was about that.  I have not had my temp taken in a number of months here.  But we are a high vaccinated area and so the population went for a much higher security thing - vaccines. 

I went to wound clinic where both dh and I had to get our temperatures and wear masks. The only think I did figure out was that my temps were normally 96 degrees and dh was low 97

[TravelingChris]

On 8/2/2021 at 3:51 PM, Pam in CT said:

re what we know v what we hope

It's a new disease.

[Even to the extent that there really are significant numbers of people mildly infected a year ago who actually do continue to test *active antibodies* "regularly" just out of curiosity... testing that is not typically covered by insurance, whith I know personally because I actually did go get "just curious if that flu-like think I had in Feb 2020 was COVID" antibody testing,,,]

We do not know that antibodies 12+ months out will hold to 24 months out.  Or that antibodies to COVID 2020 actually prevent infection or transmission with COVID Delta, or the next variant currently incubating.

We don't know.

As to to the question in the bolded: if folks who had a CONFIRMED case 12+ months ago actually enroll in real trials, with regular and supervised blood tests that actually do confirm ongoing antibody levels... yes.  I'm all for real study with real (replicable, transparent) trial parameters that actually study home long immunity through Vaccine P, Vaccine M, Vaccine J and Confirmed Case (of both COVID 2020 and COVID Delta) hold.

That is NOT what we're doing.

I know one sentaor did this and got the shots when his immunity dropped.

[busymama7]

I didn't test for antibodies but I did go ahead and get the vaccine at 8 months as it seemed that would be about the average end point.  I did not react barely at all to the first one and haven't had the second yet.  The fact that those who have had covid generally react more to the first one has me pondering if that could be because they still have antibodies.  It made me at least feel good about getting it when I did.  Will see how second shot goes.  

[TravelingChris]

On 8/3/2021 at 5:17 PM, KSera said:

I don't know what would indicate it would get that bad, given how well the vaccine is protecting against death and the proportion of the population vaccinated. It would have to mutate to something that completely evades the vaccine in order to cause that many deaths in the next 6 months. I believe case numbers are likely to rise higher than we have seen at any other point in the US, but I think deaths will be much lower most places, except for those that have low vaccination rates, which may have significant waves of deaths (but hopefully not as big as before, since the elderly are the most likely to have been vaccinated, even in places that are otherwise anti vax).

WHat I don't know iswhy they haven't done more research into what makes people immune from COVID and what makes people get a bad case=== I am talking about genetics.  

[busymama7]

1 minute ago, TravelingChris said:

WHat I don't know iswhy they haven't done more research into what makes people immune from COVID and what makes people get a bad case=== I am talking about genetics.  

Yeah that really needs to be done.  My doctor is more up on genetics than most (just ran a big panel on me that was super fascinating) and he says medical practice is about 30 years behind in genetics.   It's coming but slowly. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

38 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I went to wound clinic where both dh and I had to get our temperatures and wear masks. The only think I did figure out was that my temps were normally 96 degrees and dh was low 97

My temperature is normally very low as well.  I think that's common with autoimmune issues? 

[KidsHappen]

40 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

My temperature is normally very low as well.  I think that's common with autoimmune issues? 

I also have very low temps. I once measured it at 95.0 and I haven't had a high temp in probably decades not even with an infection.

[TravelingChris]

15 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

I also have very low temps. I once measured it at 95.0 and I haven't had a high temp in probably decades not even with an infection.

Yep that is me.  And when I last had pneumonia, it actually fell.

[Kassia]

I also have low temps, low blood pressure, and low pulse.  

I read somewhere recently that the average body temp has dropped though and it is lower than the standard 98.6.

 

ETA - this might not be what I read earlier but it's the same thing

 

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/01/human-body-temperature-has-decreased-in-united-states.html

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Kassia

[Pawz4me]

6 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It's like people are just now figuring out what at will employment means. 

 

QFT. It's yet another area where it seems like our country has gone a bit nutty or upside down. The group that used to be all in for employment-at-will now seems to be against it. Like they've also turned against local control, private businesses being allowed to make their own rules and probably other things I'm forgetting about. Funny how all that changed when it no longer suited them. 

 

4 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

My temperature is normally very low as well.  I think that's common with autoimmune issues? 

Ditto.

[MEmama]

18 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

QFT. It's yet another area where it seems like our country has gone a bit nutty or upside down. The group that used to be all in for employment-at-will now seems to be against it. Like they've also turned against local control, private businesses being allowed to make their own rules and probably other things I'm forgetting about. Funny how all that changed when it no longer suited them. 

We have posters here who, at the beginning of the pandemic, stated that if healthcare workers don’t like the conditions (overrun hospitals, no PPP, understaffing, the emotional toll), they had the freedom to quit and get a new job. That’s the freedom of at will employment.
 

Funny, indeed, how quickly and seamlessly they can change their thinking, without the slightest hint of irony. 

 

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

People are acting like a mandated vaccine is a brand new thing but come on. We're all parents here. How many times have we provided information about our kid's vaccine records? I keep a copy in our safe. 

I had to get the MMR when I was in grad school. The university required it and my mother couldn't find the records proving that I'd had it so I got it again. 

There are laws requiring some healthcare workers to be vaccinated. It's like this is brand new information for people. (I wish I could add the Phoebe "this is brand new information!" meme) 

 

[Faith-manor]

44 minutes ago, MEmama said:

We have posters here who, at the beginning of the pandemic, stated that if healthcare workers don’t like the conditions (overrun hospitals, no PPP, understaffing, the emotional toll), they had the freedom to quit and get a new job. That’s the freedom of at will employment.
 

Funny, indeed, how quickly and seamlessly they can change their thinking, without the slightest hint of irony. 

 

Truth! And the same folks that are anti government being involved in private business and telling employers what they can and cannot do and say the bakery can have whatever rules it wants about baking a cake for a gay wedding, now want government mandates preventing employers from making health rules in the workplace. Which is it folks? You can't have your cake and eat it too!  Anti-vax, by the way, is not a protected class of citizens.

[AbcdeDooDah]

9 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

People are acting like a mandated vaccine is a brand new thing but come on. We're all parents here. How many times have we provided information about our kid's vaccine records? I keep a copy in our safe. 

I had to get the MMR when I was in grad school. The university required it and my mother couldn't find the records proving that I'd had it so I got it again. 

There are laws requiring some healthcare workers to be vaccinated. It's like this is brand new information for people. (I wish I could add the Phoebe "this is brand new information!" meme) 

 

Vaccinated or a titre. Why couldn't Covid be the same?

Edited August 5, 2021 by AbcdeDooDah