The “vaccination divide” in the US

[Jean in Newcastle]

10 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Do you get the feeling that symptom mitigation as the end goal is what the general public thought?  I think most people thought it would stop it, IME.

Since symptom mitigation has been repeated ad nauseum as the goal, they must not have been paying much attention if they thought otherwise. 

[KSera]

17 minutes ago, Cecropia said:

From the article I linked:

 

Yeah, I looked at the article, but it appears they used their own effectiveness definition that doesn't match the FDA one. I don't think they intended that; that was written pre-vaccine, and the info wasn't out yet for them to know what the endpoints were. The endpoints weren't contracting the illness, they were serious illness or death. That's all that was even measured in the initial trials (because that was the initial main goal). From the actual FDA document:

Quote

FDA acknowledges the potential to request an EUA for a COVID-19 vaccine
based on an interim analysis of a clinical endpoint from a Phase 3 efficacy study.
Issuance of an EUA requires a determination that the known and potential benefits
of the vaccine outweigh the known and potential risks. For a preventive COVID-
19 vaccine to be potentially administered to millions of individuals, including
healthy individuals, data adequate to inform an assessment of the vaccine’s
benefits and risks and support issuance of an EUA would include not only meeting
the prespecified success criteria for the study’s primary efficacy endpoint as
described in the guidance for industry entitled “Development and Licensure of
Vaccines to Prevent COVID-19” (Ref. 1) (i.e. a point estimate for a placebo-
controlled efficacy trial of at least 50%, with a lower bound of the appropriately
alpha-adjusted confidence interval around the primary efficacy endpoint point
estimate of >30%) but also additional safety and effectiveness data as described
below.

16 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Do you get the feeling that symptom mitigation as the end goal is what the general public thought?  I think most people thought it would stop it, IME.

As stated above, initially, preventing serious illness and death was the goal. Then we found out it prevented transmission, and that was amazing(!) news. Super happy, joy, joy. But then Delta came along. Now it still prevents most hospitalization and death (I'd call that more than just symptom mitigation), and it reduces disease, but it doesn't reduce it as amazingly as it did with previous variants.

Edited August 2, 2021 by KSera
adding bolding because formatting makes it hard to read

[AbcdeDooDah]

3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Since symptom mitigation has been repeated ad nauseum as the goal, they must not have been paying much attention if they thought otherwise. 

A lot of people don't. That's been pretty clear. My husband today said he'll be mad if he gets Covid because he got vaxed. He's definitely bitter about the unclear messaging.

[Pen]

2 hours ago, GracieJane said:

Yes! Thank you for responding. Do you think most vaccinated people do not evaluate risk the way you would? 

1) many vaccinated people have very different risk than I have as a personal health matter regardless of how they “evaluate” it.  
 

 

2) some people even if it were possible to have identical risk situations I am sure would, yes, evaluate it very differently

3) snip - privacy .   

 

4) For myself, this gives one useful way to think about cost/benefit analysis (for example, even if you disagree with him, to be able to understand how something could have a greater net negative even if it appears to have some positive stats): 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Pen

[AbcdeDooDah]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Yeah, I looked at the article, but it appears they used their own effectiveness definition that doesn't match the FDA one. I don't think they intended that; that was written pre-vaccine, and the info wasn't out yet for them to know what the endpoints were. The endpoints weren't contracting the illness, they were serious illness or death. That's all that was even measured in the initial trials (because that was the initial main goal). From the actual FDA document:

As stated above, initially, preventing serious illness and death was the goal. Then we found out it prevented transmission, and that was amazing(!) news. Super happy, joy, joy. But then Delta came along. Now it still prevents most hospitalization and death (I'd call that more than just symptom mitigation), and it reduces disease, but it doesn't reduce it as amazingly as it did with previous variants.

I just don't think the messaging conveyed that to the general public.

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

1) many vaccinated people have very different risk than I have as a personal health matter regardless of how they “evaluate” it.  
 

 

2) some people even if it were possible to have identical risk situations I am sure would, yes, evaluate it very differently

3) snip - privacy . 

 

4) For myself, this gives one useful way to think about cost/benefit analysis (for example, even if you disagree with him, to be able to understand how something could have a greater net negative even if it appears to have some positive stats): 

 

 

A heads up for others that the person on that video is an anti-semitic conspiracy therorist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucharit_Bhakdi. I see from the title it's about blood clots, and blood clots are a legitimate concern, but not from a covid denier and certainly not about to give paid clicks to an anti-semite.

2 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I just don't think the messaging conveyed that to the general public.

That's unfortunate. I actually thought it was fairly well spread, because early on, a lot of the pushback on vaccines was "they only prevent serious illness and death, not spread, so why do you care if anyone else gets it?" and that lasted up until the research in the late Spring showing they were preventing transmission very well.

[TexasProud]

11 minutes ago, KSera said:

t it was fairly well spread, because early on, a lot of the pushback on vaccines was "they only prevent serious illness and death, not spread, so why do you care if anyone else gets it?" and that lasted up until the research in the late Spring showing they were preventing transmission very well.

Which is the reason I got it. I am not really concerned for myself. I just don't want to pass it onto anyone else. So the fact that I can now is really disappointing and means that once again, I can't do anything I love to do. I had planned to join choir this month after being out of it for 18 months.  ( I sang for 40 years before that.) Lots of other stuff. Back to being a hermit. 

I HATE THIS.  And you guys will get to have me hear on the board 24/7 since I cannot go anywhere else not.  You guys are back to being my only friends. Sigh. It was so nice to start reconnecting.

[Pen]

56 minutes ago, Cecropia said:

The vaccines would never have been approved for EUA with that level of effectiveness.

https://www.biospace.com/article/fda-s-guidance-on-a-covid-19-vaccine-must-be-at-least-50-percent-effective/

If effectiveness is only 40%, I really don't understand how mandates can still be floated for the general public.

and the “absolute effectiveness rate” was tiny

not 40% at all

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33652582/

 

 

[GracieJane]

38 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

Thank you! 🙂

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

and the “absolute effectiveness rate” was tiny

not 40% at all

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33652582/

 

 

Yeah, I'm well aware. I think most of us who read a lot about this stuff know that. But what I want to know, is if I get covid, what are the chances I will be hospitalized or killed by it after being vaccinated vs without being vaccinated. That's the real world number. I get the vaccine for IF I get covid (which with Delta, now looks like darn near everyone will be exposed, unless they can really isolate hard). It matters a whole lot to me to know that 99%+ of the covid patients in my local hospital are unvaccinated. That's not a tiny effect, no matter how much covid deniers like to lean into the absolute effectiveness rate in an attempt to make it sound like lack of vaccination isn't killing people by the thousands. Which is so perplexing to me. Isn't less people dying better?

[Cecropia]

41 minutes ago, KSera said:

Yeah, I looked at the article, but it appears they used their own effectiveness definition that doesn't match the FDA one. I don't think they intended that; that was written pre-vaccine, and the info wasn't out yet for them to know what the endpoints were. The endpoints weren't contracting the illness, they were serious illness or death. That's all that was even measured in the initial trials (because that was the initial main goal). From the actual FDA document:

Thank you. Honestly, what you quoted is a bit confusing to me, but I ran it down a bit further and found this press announcement which is written in layman's terms. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-takes-action-help-facilitate-timely-development-safe-effective-covid

Quote

[The guidance] conveys that the FDA would expect that a COVID-19 vaccine would prevent disease or decrease its severity in at least 50% of people who are vaccinated.

 

[Pawz4me]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Yeah, I'm well aware. I think most of us who read a lot about this stuff know that. But what I want to know, is if I get covid, what are the chances I will be hospitalized or killed by it after being vaccinated vs without being vaccinated. That's the real world number. I get the vaccine for IF I get covid (which with Delta, now looks like darn near everyone will be exposed, unless they can really isolate hard). It matters a whole lot to me to know that 99%+ of the covid patients in my local hospital are unvaccinated. That's not a tiny effect, no matter how much covid deniers like to lean into the absolute effectiveness rate in an attempt to make it sound like lack of vaccination isn't killing people by the thousands. Which is so perplexing to me. Isn't less people dying better?

Yes. I've been up close and personal with someone on a vent. I had to make the decision to do a terminal wean. That is NOT the situation I want DH or my boys to find themselves in, nor do I ever ever ever want to have to make that decision for someone else again. Ever ever ever. It took me over three years to even halfway recover from the trauma of having to make that decision. It's been over eight years and I still can barely allow myself to think about it. Avoiding that is my #1 priority. By far. Everything else pales in comparison.

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Cecropia said:

Thank you. Honestly, what you quoted is a bit confusing to me, but I ran it down a bit further and found this press announcement which is written in layman's terms. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-takes-action-help-facilitate-timely-development-safe-effective-covid

Quote

[The guidance] conveys that the FDA would expect that a COVID-19 vaccine would prevent disease or decrease its severity in at least 50% of people who are vaccinated

That's a much more straightforward quote. Thanks for tracking it down.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Do you get the feeling that symptom mitigation as the end goal is what the general public thought?  I think most people thought it would stop it, IME.

*I personally* wanted the vaccine so I would probably not be hospitalized or die if I did get COVID. So yeah, symptom mitigation.  But I also am idealistic enough to wish that almost everyone would get it so the virus would have no host. In the early part of the pandemic, when a lot of people thought it could be a one-time virus like measles or CP, I would guess a lot of people envisioned us getting to eradication by natural infection. 

[TexasProud]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

*I personally* wanted the vaccine so I would probably not be hospitalized or die if I did get COVID. So yeah, symptom mitigation.  But I also am idealistic enough to wish that almost everyone would get it so the virus would have no host. In the early part of the pandemic, when a lot of people thought it could be a one-time virus like measles or CP, I would guess a lot of people envisioned us getting to eradication by natural infection. 

Yeah, I know. Now you just keep getting it over and over. We have had boardies that have had it 2 or 3 times. So it will never end.  It will just keep killing us off a little at a time.....or right now, a lot at a time. ( Well, the deaths will start in 2 weeks.  It normally takes that long for them to catch up the amount of cases.)  

[Corraleno]

RE: the vaccine only preventing 40% of cases:

The Israeli figure of 39% efficacy against Delta is the lowest number suggested by any current study. Other recent studies have provided much higher efficacy rates against Delta: 79% (Scotland), 87% (Canada), 88% (England).

Canada: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.28.21259420v2.full\

England: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891

Scotland: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01358-1/fulltext

[Terabith]

2 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re what information is revealed through regular blood donations

There are folks who regularly donate blood, and I have the deepest admiration and gratitude for them. Such folks are rare but they definitely exist, and the rest of us depend on them when we/ our loved ones are in sudden/ urgent need.

 

Regular blood donations DO reveal the existence of antibodies.  But that antibody status alone does not prove whether or not the person has or is transmitting COVID asymtomatically.  Which is a real possibly as new variants like Delta spread.  To do the sort of comparison between  "natural" immunity v vaccine immunity suggested by the prior poster, there would need to be regular PCR testing and viral load testing as well as the existence-of-antibody check.

And to be clear: I think such actual studies would be valuable. But what your sister is doing isn't that

... though I am very grateful for the blood donations.

So, I donate blood every 8 weeks (give or take things like my donation day was the day after I had my second covid shot, so I waited another 8 weeks because the location where I donate only offers it on 8 week cycles).  I've gotten information about my antibody status; they can tell that I have been vaccinated but have not been infected with covid because of the kinds of antibodies I have.  

That said, the Red Cross is suspending covid antibody testing.  Not sure why; maybe they've suspended the convalescent plasma thing?  

[Elfknitter.#]

19 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, I donate blood every 8 weeks (give or take things like my donation day was the day after I had my second covid shot, so I waited another 8 weeks because the location where I donate only offers it on 8 week cycles).  I've gotten information about my antibody status; they can tell that I have been vaccinated but have not been infected with covid because of the kinds of antibodies I have.  

That said, the Red Cross is suspending covid antibody testing.  Not sure why; maybe they've suspended the convalescent plasma thing?  

According to their website:

Quote

Last June – when much was still unknown about the COVID-19 virus – the Red Cross began testing all blood product donations for COVID-19 antibodies. With a majority of Americans now having received a COVID-19 vaccine and the discontinuation of convalescent plasma, the Red Cross has stopped testing for COVID-19 antibodies as of June 25, 2021. 

I missed it by 1 week...

[SKL]

15 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

A lot of people don't. That's been pretty clear. My husband today said he'll be mad if he gets Covid because he got vaxed. He's definitely bitter about the unclear messaging.

Yeah, I watched and waited until the respected info sources confirmed that the vax would highly likely prevent my spreading Covid, because I was not interested in vaxing to prevent myself (or my kids) from experiencing Covid symptoms.

I really hope there is a frenzy of reliable research happening to clear this up soon! 

This is so frustrating.  We're intelligent, educated people, and if we can't answer these questions, then it should be obvious why many Americans are holding back.

[Faith-manor]

Personally, I think that the Delta variant is going to just rip through, kill a bunch more, disable even more, and then still adhering to their delusions and refusing vaccines and safety protocols, Lambda will hit. Another wave of wiping people out. After that, having lost a lot of hosts and presuming that boosters become available to those who have already vaccinated, boosters tweaked for the new variants, it will finally ebb. I think it is going to get very Darwinian out there. Children, as usual, will suffer the follies of the asshat adults who don't give a damn. It has always been this way. Sigh.

I figure when the U.S. hits about 3 or 4 million dead, a few hundred thousand kids dead or disabled, orphanages have to be built, social security disability goes totally bust from the sheer number of folks needing it due to covid disability, food costs absolutely skyrocket because there aren't enough workers, and medical workers quit in droves or are dead from being overwhelmed by viral load, then a few people may go, "Well sh$t! I guess we should have paid attention."

Or maybe not. The denying and delusional furor has reached a place of being like religious mania. They may be so dogmatic that they don't care how many die, how bankrupt the nation becomes, or even if their own kids die. I know religious people who really do not care, and when their own foolishness catches up, throws their hands in the air and claim, "God's will." Blaming a deity for human complacency is their norm. I have seen a bunch of that including folks that would not get medical treatment for very treatable conditions because "God's will" and "God will heal me". So it is entirely possible that there is no amount of suffering that will cause people to take precautions of any kind unless forced upon pain of incarceration, and I doubt the country will resort to that.

I think we are heading down a very dystopian hole, and I don't think anything can be done to stop it. All you can do is do is the very best you can as individuals who see the iceberg ahead to get your own family into the " lifeboat". The rest are going to party until the hull splits open, and the ship sinks! 😠

I say this as my unvaxed nephew and his wife with a 5.5 year old and a newborn, plan a 200 person party indoor/outdoor no precautions in a county with substantial delta variant spread. My heart weeps for my two great nieces, but I can't do a thing about it.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

 I know religious people who really do not care, and when their own foolishness catches up, throws their hands in the air and claim, "God's will." Blaming a deity for human complacency is their norm. I have seen a bunch of that including folks that would not get medical treatment for very treatable conditions because "God's will" and "God will heal me". So it is entirely possible that there is no amount of suffering that will cause people to take precautions of any kind unless forced upon pain of incarceration, and I doubt the country will resort to that.

My friend just told me about a conversation with her neighbor who refuses any Covid precautions because he says "if God decides it's my time, it is my time." When she asked him why, then, did he have heart surgery last year and didn't simply give in to God calling him home, his response was "because I needed it".

You can't use logic. There is such a cognitive disconnect, it's depressing.

[Pam in CT]

This was ALWAYS a race between getting to herd immunity * , vs dealing with variants that evolved to beat the protection afforded by EITHER vaccination based on prior versions of the virus OR infection with prior versions of the virus.

From the beginning, that was the race.

Some of us placed our trust in chariots, the Warp Speed development of multiple vaccines.  Others in horses, Let Er Rip everyone was exposed, chicken pox party style, ASAP, to get to "natural herd."  Different theories but both based on the idea of "getting to herd" faster than newly morphing variants emerged to beat the protection afforded.

In Feb-April 2021, there was hope that we** might be able to win that race.

 

But then -- before we achieved herd -- Delta emerged. 

We lost the race (or, God willing, we lost the first relay of what is turning out to be a longer race than we hoped.  As did the 1919 inflenza).

And what we learned about COVID 2020 is different from what we are now seeing from COVID Delta.

 

That's not Fauci or "messaging" or "mainstream media" or "science" moving the goalposts.

That is the disease. Mutating. As diseases do.

That is the problem statement. Of the problem. That we *** have.

Still.

Because we lost the race. (Or at least, God willing, the first relay of a longer race than we hoped for.)

 

Again. Remember who the real enemy is.

 

 

 

{just read Faith's post upthread, which she she was writing at the same time as I was. What she said.}

 

 

* global herd immunity, since we're all floating in the same spherical petri dish whether we like it or not)

** global we

*** global we

[kbutton]

40 minutes ago, Plum said:

Fauci's noble lies
1) masking
2) moving the goal post on herd immunity to promote vaccine uptake
3) vaccine efficacy
4) rising hospitalizations in adolescents

Are we all quoting Fauci on here? I think people here are generally following a variety of public health officials and a lot of epidemiologists that aren't connected to Fauci. The general public has fixed their gaze on him as representing everything about the pandemic, and it seems bizarre. 

I don't like the "noble lies" either, but I disagree that all of those qualify a noble lie. Things change. We have conversations like this around predicting hurricanes too--do we freak people out for nothing, or do we leave them potentially unprepared?

What noble lies has the other side of this been promoting? 

3 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

This was ALWAYS a race between getting to herd immunity * , vs dealing with variants that evolved to beat the protection afforded by EITHER vaccination based on prior versions of the virus OR infection with prior versions of the virus.

From the beginning, that was the race.

Some of us placed our trust in chariots, the Warp Speed development of multiple vaccines.  Others in horses, Let Er Rip everyone was exposed, chicken pox party style, ASAP, to get to "natural herd."  Different theories but both based on the idea of "getting to herd" faster than newly morphing variants emerged to beat the protection afforded.

I don't know anyone who wanted Let Er Rip who ever mentioned variants--they wanted everything open and wanted the economy back to normal. They wanted their freedom. 

One person I know espoused Let Er Rip primarily for young people--opening schools and colleges like a chicken pox party. I don't know how she proposed to protect the elderly in that scenario.

I agree that both were proposed with the idea of getting to herd immunity.

[TexasProud]

29 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Personally, I think that the Delta variant is going to just rip through, kill a bunch more, disable even more, and then still adhering to their delusions and refusing vaccines and safety protocols, Lambda will hit. Another wave of wiping people out. After that, having lost a lot of hosts and presuming that boosters become available to those who have already vaccinated, boosters tweaked for the new variants, it will finally ebb. I think it is going to get very Darwinian out there. Children, as usual, will suffer the follies of the asshat adults who don't give a damn. It has always been this way. Sigh.

I figure when the U.S. hits about 3 or 4 million dead, a few hundred thousand kids dead or disabled, orphanages have to be built, social security disability goes totally bust from the sheer number of folks needing it due to covid disability, food costs absolutely skyrocket because there aren't enough workers, and medical workers quit in droves or are dead from being overwhelmed by viral load, then a few people may go, "Well sh$t! I guess we should have paid attention."

Or maybe not. The denying and delusional furor has reached a place of being like religious mania. They may be so dogmatic that they don't care how many die, how bankrupt the nation becomes, or even if their own kids die. I know religious people who really do not care, and when their own foolishness catches up, throws their hands in the air and claim, "God's will." Blaming a deity for human complacency is their norm. I have seen a bunch of that including folks that would not get medical treatment for very treatable conditions because "God's will" and "God will heal me". So it is entirely possible that there is no amount of suffering that will cause people to take precautions of any kind unless forced upon pain of incarceration, and I doubt the country will resort to that.

I think we are heading down a very dystopian hole, and I don't think anything can be done to stop it. All you can do is do is the very best you can as individuals who see the iceberg ahead to get your own family into the " lifeboat". The rest are going to party until the hull splits open, and the ship sinks! 😠

I say this as my unvaxed nephew and his wife with a 5.5 year old and a newborn, plan a 200 person party indoor/outdoor no precautions in a county with substantial delta variant spread. My heart weeps for my two great nieces, but I can't do a thing about it.

 

24 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

This was ALWAYS a race between getting to herd immunity * , vs dealing with variants that evolved to beat the protection afforded by EITHER vaccination based on prior versions of the virus OR infection with prior versions of the virus.

From the beginning, that was the race.

Some of us placed our trust in chariots, the Warp Speed development of multiple vaccines.  Others in horses, Let Er Rip everyone was exposed, chicken pox party style, ASAP, to get to "natural herd."  Different theories but both based on the idea of "getting to herd" faster than newly morphing variants emerged to beat the protection afforded.

In Feb-April 2021, there was hope that we** might be able to win that race.

 

But then -- before we achieved herd -- Delta emerged. 

We lost the race (or, God willing, we lost the first relay of what is turning out to be a longer race than we hoped.  As did the 1919 inflenza).

And what we learned about COVID 2020 is different from what we are now seeing from COVID Delta.

 

That's not Fauci or "messaging" or "mainstream media" or "science" moving the goalposts.

That is the disease. Mutating. As diseases do.

That is the problem statement. Of the problem. That we *** have.

Still.

Because we lost the race. (Or at least, God willing, the first relay of a longer race than we hoped for.)

 

Again. Remember who the real enemy is.

 

 

 

{just read Faith's post upthread, which she she was writing at the same time as I was. What she said.}

 

 

* global herd immunity, since we're all floating in the same spherical petri dish whether we like it or not)

** global we

*** global we

Yep, nothing we can do anymore. Our world is just doomed.

[MEmama]

1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

 

Yep, nothing we can do anymore. Our world is just doomed.

We aren’t doomed, at least not because of COVID. Pandemics are par for course throughout all of humanity. The political rhetoric and division is nothing new either.

Gently, while I totally understand having tough days—I’m sure we all experience them on occasion, and more now than usual— your daily struggle sounds like maybe you’d benefit from therapy. Please take that from a place of caring and sympathy. You don’t sound like you are in a healthy state of mind, but it doesn’t have to be that way. Wishing you peace, truly. 

[Pam in CT]

"nothing we can do"

3 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yep, nothing we can do anymore. Our world is just doomed.

I'm not able to "read" whether you're a) venting (understandable), b) snarky (also understandable, though I'm on a decades-long ever-lapsing recovery program from snark myself), or c) serious.

If the latter:  (( hugs )) .  And also, no snark at all, consider finding a therapist.

 

There is a great deal we can do, separately and jointly.  It is never too late to take a deep breath, corral our resources, pick up some small corner of the task at hand, and start.

[Jean in Newcastle]

27 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My friend just told me about a conversation with her neighbor who refuses any Covid precautions because he says "if God decides it's my time, it is my time." When she asked him why, then, did he have heart surgery last year and didn't simply give in to God calling him home, his response was "because I needed it".

You can't use logic. There is such a cognitive disconnect, it's depressing.

As a Christian this frustrates me no end. I believe that God has given us the ability to come up with medicines and treatments and vaccines. There is a limit to what humans can control and that’s where *for me* I trust in God’s timing. But I also believe that God can and does allow us to experience the consequences of our actions- including death. I don’t trust God for a miracle and step out in front of a moving train. I do believe that God is able to stop the train but I also believe that He created the laws of physics and 99.9% of the time keeps them in place. 
 

I know that you’re not a Christian and I am not trying to argue you to my view about God. I am just explaining that not all Christian’s believe as your friend’s neighbor does. 

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

As a Christian this frustrates me no end. I believe that God has given us the ability to come up with medicines and treatments and vaccines. There is a limit to what humans can control and that’s where *for me* I trust in God’s timing. But I also believe that God can and does allow us to experience the consequences of our actions- including death. I don’t trust God for a miracle and step out in front of a moving train. I do believe that God is able to stop the train but I also believe that He created the laws of physics and 99.9% of the time keeps them in place. 
I know that you’re not a Christian and I am not trying to argue you to my view about God. I am just explaining that not all Christian’s believe as your friend’s neighbor does. 

Oh, I know that. Your view of God seems very sensible to me, who is a former Christian.
My point is just that I cannot se ANY way to argue with a person like my friend's neighbor and convince them to change their ways. I can see how a person who is concerned about the new technology can be educated, how a person who didn't think Covid was really bad can have an eye-opener - but this attitude seems to defy absolutely everything friends and doctors can possibly try. (And sadly, in this rural Midwestern area, the attitude is depressingly prevalent. It's a particular flavor of Christianity that thrives here)

Edited August 3, 2021 by regentrude

[MEmama]

10 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

"nothing we can do"

I'm not able to "read" whether you're a) venting (understandable), b) snarky (also understandable, though I'm on a decades-long ever-lapsing recovery program from snark myself), or c) serious.

If the latter:  (( hugs )) .  And also, no snark at all, consider finding a therapist.

 

There is a great deal we can do, separately and jointly.  It is never too late to take a deep breath, corral our resources, pick up some small corner of the task at hand, and start.

My FIL tried to pull the “it’s too confusing to know what to do anymore so I’ll just quit trying” line on me, so I firmly corrected him. I said No, it isn’t confusing. Get vaccinated, wear a mask, keep distance/limit indoor public spaces, and stay home if you’re sick. That’s really, truly doing what we can. And they all make a difference. And I praised him for doing those things.

I guess a person can get caught up in the details—which county is red today, I have to wear a mask here but not there, etc. But in reality, it’s pretty simple to stick to the basics. Mask all the time indoors because it makes sense. Limit exposure because it makes sense. Get vaccinated because it’s a no brainier (I promise) (with the obligatory and important medical exemption disclaimers). Wash your hands, don’t be gross. If the niggling details confuse you, stick to those all the time and your bases will be covered.

eta: I don’t mean there isn’t more we can do, but for anyone who gets stressed about the details, it’s actually pretty simple to follow the basic protocol and feel like they are doing the right things. 
 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by MEmama

[Pam in CT]

re trust in chariots v horses v God's will

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

....I believe that God has given us the ability to come up with medicines and treatments and vaccines. There is a limit to what humans can control and that’s where *for me* I trust in God’s timing. But I also believe that God can and does allow us to experience the consequences of our actions- including death. I don’t trust God for a miracle and step out in front of a moving train. I do believe that God is able to stop the train but I also believe that He created the laws of physics and 99.9% of the time keeps them in place....

I'm not Christian, and my take on sacred texts is much more seriously, not literally than Jean's, but this is within shouting distance of where I come out as well.

 

I figure we're about at the part of the #FunnyNotFunnyAtAll joke about the guy in the rising floodwaters who refuses the MSM warning, the boat, and the helicopter because he trusts that God will save him.  And when he gets to the pearly gates and asks why God didn't, God says, Dude. I sent a report, a boat and a helicopter.  This is on you, friend.

 

[SKL]

FTR I don't know anyone who isn't doing some level of mitigation to prevent spreading Covid.  But even so, people are sick of hearing a different message every day.  How do you even have a conversation about something that isn't going to be "true" tomorrow?  Hard enough even with people who aren't being judgmental jerks about it.

[Pen]

 

36 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

 

I figure we're about at the part of the #FunnyNotFunnyAtAll joke about the guy in the rising floodwaters who refuses the MSM warning, the boat, and the helicopter because he trusts that God will save him.  And when he gets to the pearly gates and asks why God didn't, God says, Dude. I sent a report, a boat and a helicopter.  This is on you, friend

 

 

🙏💕

 

absolutely!!! 

I take that joke to heart . 

 

And in case things go the opposite way of what most of you here on Wtm  believe (if you end up with ADE, or AI, etc. or someone you love does)  keep that in mind for yourselves too.

 

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

FTR I don't know anyone who isn't doing some level of mitigation to prevent spreading Covid.  

You clearly don't live in Missouri. 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/07/27/ozarks-lake-covid-unvaccinated-500784

Yes, not my favorite source, and yes, they didn't talk to the people who are careful - but those people don't frequent bars at the Lake. 

ETA: What "level of mitigation" do people do in my county where 70% are unvaccinated, yet 95% of all folks are unmasked in public indoor spaces? 

Edited August 3, 2021 by regentrude

[kbutton]

52 minutes ago, regentrude said:

My point is just that I cannot se ANY way to argue with a person like my friend's neighbor and convince them to change their ways. 

I am right there with you and would assert that some of them talk about what kind of proof they would need, and I think they still wouldn't believe it when it comes there way, much like @Pam in CT says about the old joke.

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

FTR I don't know anyone who isn't doing some level of mitigation to prevent spreading Covid.  But even so, people are sick of hearing a different message every day.  How do you even have a conversation about something that isn't going to be "true" tomorrow?  Hard enough even with people who aren't being judgmental jerks about it.

---

Maybe by being less rigid and black and white about what it means for information to change. Less effective most definitely does not equal ineffective, for instance.

We don't expect stop signs to keep us from flying out of a car; we expect seatbelts to help with that. Our driving safety is dependent upon layers and layers of protections (technology, laws, law enforcement, driver's ed, etc.), all of which could seem disintegrated and ineffective one at a time if we went from walking everywhere to our interstate system overnight with no transition time. 

[Pam in CT]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

FTR I don't know anyone who isn't doing some level of mitigation to prevent spreading Covid.  But even so, people are sick of hearing a different message every day.  How do you even have a conversation about something that isn't going to be "true" tomorrow?  Hard enough even with people who aren't being judgmental jerks about it.

Yep.

Mutation sucks. Variants beating out what we learned about the last version sucks. Uncertainty about what comes next sucks.

It's what diseases do.  It's a race, and at the moment we are losing.

 

Remember who the real enemy is.  It isn't "messaging" and it isn't each other.

 

[Terabith]

I do think there has been a mixture of both *the variants changing the game* and also *noble messaging/ lying for the "public good."*

The variants changed the game in that while the initial goal of vaccine development was to prevent severe disease/ death/ hospitalization, fairly early on, it became apparent that at least the mRNA vaccines actually prevented disease.  So the messaging rightly changed to "Good news!  Not only will the vaccines prevent you from dying, but they will prevent you getting infected and spreading covid!"  And that did inspire a lot of people to get vaccinated.  But then the variants changed, and that was no longer the case.  People could get infected after vaccination and spread it.  That wasn't a case of public health screwing up or moving goalposts or being wishy-washy.  That was a case of things changing because the virus changed.

On the other hand, there have been some clear examples of noble lies designed to engineer public behavior.  In March 2020, when the CDC said that healthy people shouldn't wear masks, that was a lie.  Those of us who were reading reports knew that masks reduced spread when worn by everyone.  The CDC made that announcement because they were worried about people hoarding masks and there not being enough PPE for health care workers.  It was a lie, and it did damage public trust, especially since they've never repented and said, "We lied.  We screwed up."

When the CDC said that vaccinated people did not need to wear masks, that was....not exactly a lie, because at the time, in most parts of the country, viral transmission levels were low enough that it probably was not critical for vaccinated people to do so.  But it was misleading, because we KNEW Delta was coming; we KNEW it would change the game, and rolling back that guideline only to need to reinstate it (with a super confusing check the viral spread every day and wear one if you're in an area of significant or high transmission), it made people feel that there had been a bit of a bait and switch.  And they're not wrong.  The CDC rolled back the masking for vaccinated people rule based largely on an attempt to get more people vaccinated, but it has contributed to distrust.  

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

 

 

There is a great deal we can do, separately and jointly.  It is never too late to take a deep breath, corral our resources, pick up some small corner of the task at hand, and start.

No, not really.   I mean I am doing what I can, but what has that done in my corner. NOTHING. I cannot do anything else to change the tide here. I am doing everything I know to do and it is useless. Thousands will probably die in my corner as this virus continues to mutate. I cannot change that. Yeah, I can stay safe, but I can't fix the thousands of deaths.

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

We aren’t doomed, at least not because of COVID. Pandemics are par for course throughout all of humanity. The political rhetoric and division is nothing new either.

 

Yes, this will just change our society, much like the Black death in the Middle Ages. The way of life completely changed and many, many died.  Just a repeat now with same results. Nothing I can really do to change it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

No, not really.   I mean I am doing what I can, but what has that done in my corner. NOTHING. I cannot do anything else to change the tide here. I am doing everything I know to do and it is useless. Thousands will probably die in my corner as this virus continues to mutate. I cannot change that. Yeah, I can stay safe, but I can't fix the thousands of deaths.

It's not your job to change it. 

[TexasProud]

3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

It's not your job to change it. 

I was replying to the poster who told me there is always something we can do to make a difference. Nope. Sometimes what we do makes do difference at all. None.

[MEmama]

1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, this will just change our society, much like the Black death in the Middle Ages. The way of life completely changed and many, many died.  Just a repeat now with same results. Nothing I can really do to change it.

Well, in a way that’s true. But most of what we as individuals do doesn’t change the trajectory for thousands of other people either. So we do what we CAN control—get vaccinated, wear a mask, limit public exposure. That helps you stay safe, and your family stay safe, it helps limit the exposure for your grocery store workers and library staff and health care workers and your neighbors. I mean, it DOES have a ripple effect, even if we can’t see it.

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, MEmama said:

Well, in a way that’s true. But most of what we as individuals do doesn’t change the trajectory for thousands of other people either. So we do what we CAN control—get vaccinated, wear a mask, limit public exposure. That helps you stay safe, and your family stay safe, it helps limit the exposure for your grocery store workers and library staff and health care workers and your neighbors. I mean, it DOES have a ripple effect, even if we can’t see it.

Not enough. It will not stop the trajectory of my part of the world.  Plus, that just means my life is miserable.

Edited August 3, 2021 by TexasProud

[MEmama]

Just now, TexasProud said:

Not enough. It will not stop the trajectory of my part of the world. 

What are you looking for with this mindset? What do you expect an individual should reasonably be expected to influence?

 

[MEmama]

2 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Not enough. It will not stop the trajectory of my part of the world. 

Truly, you sound so bleak and hopeless. 😞 Please consider seeking therapy. 

[TexasProud]

Just now, MEmama said:

What are you looking for with this mindset? What do you expect an individual should reasonably be expected to influence?

 

An acknowledgement that none of us have the control that we think we do.

Just really frustrated. I will not stop what I am doing, but my life was finally starting to come back and now I am just watching them live while I sit here protecting everyone.

[TexasProud]

Just now, MEmama said:

Truly, you sound so bleak and hopeless. 😞 Please consider seeking therapy. 

I am not. Just frustrated. I have tons of goals.  I am continuing my A plus average in seminary, which is pretty rare. I am not staying in the fetal position.  I have a right to be frustrated and here on this board is the only place I can express it.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

 

 

Such a good show, thanks for sharing the clip.  One of the few good things to come from this awful pandemic for us is that my husband and I watched the entire series together, having never seen it before.  It was someone sharing a different clip from it (Josh and Leo’s poingnant “man in a hole” conversation) early on that prompted me to want to watch.  I’m sad that we have finished it.

1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

Not enough. It will not stop the trajectory of my part of the world.  Plus, that just means my life is miserable.

🙁 I had been noticing lately that you were sounding like you were doing better, but sounds like recent developments have tipped you back into catastrophizing mode. I’m sorry you are struggling. Did you find someone to work with? ((Hugs))

[MEmama]

4 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

An acknowledgement that none of us have the control that we think we do.

Just really frustrated. I will not stop what I am doing, but my life was finally starting to come back and now I am just watching them live while I sit here protecting everyone.

I guess I’ve never heard anyone else feel like they themselves can somehow stop an international pandemic. I mean, gently, that’s just not a reasonable idea to get hung up on.

I think most people—at least those of us who are doing all the things—are frustrated and angry. It was even the lead story in my local paper last week. It’s damn hard to have to be the adults while half the population dickers around at our expense. Many of us have been feeling this way for years now. It’s exhausting and infuriating, I totally agree.

Having a tough day/week is understandable and I agree this is a supportive place to vent. But at some point we have to lift ourselves out of our funk and allow our rational parts to take back over. YOU are not going to “fix” this. I am not going to fix this. That’s ok. What we can do is our BEST, and be okay with that. 

[TexasProud]

2 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I guess I’ve never heard anyone else feel like they themselves can somehow stop an international pandemic. I mean, gently, that’s just not a reasonable idea to get hung up on.

I think most people—at least those of us who are doing all the things—are frustrated and angry. It was even the lead story in my local paper last week. It’s damn hard to have to be the adults while half the population dickers around at our expense. Many of us have been feeling this way for years now. It’s exhausting and infuriating, I totally agree.

Having a tough day/week is understandable and I agree this is a supportive place to vent. But at some point we have to lift ourselves out of our funk and allow our rational parts to take back over. YOU are not going to “fix” this. I am not going to fix this. That’s ok. What we can do is our BEST, and be okay with that. 

See I don't get it.  She posts stuff like this all the time:

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

So we finish our out quarantine and then schools start here. With no mask mandate, with no distancing, nothing. 

I'm thinking I need to stock up on food stuff early next week as best I can, paper towels, toilet paper, OTC meds, etc and just hunker down. 

Cause if we are at basically hospital capacity NOW, and a state of emergency NOW, BEFORE putting thousands of kids inches from each other all day, unvaccinated, unmasked....I can't imagine how much more we are going to see. I HATE THIS!!!

Give me kid vaccines! Give me boosters! I'll take a dozen, if need be, to make up for my fellow citizens doing nothing.  There are vaccines no one is using going to waste, let my 70 yr old mom with COPD have a booster!

Only good news is that kids will have brand new shiny vaccinations and be extra protected for a while, once they get vaccinated?

 

Yet no one is telling her she is too negative. I post my frustrations off and on.  

[regentrude]

30 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, this will just change our society, much like the Black death in the Middle Ages. The way of life completely changed and many, many died.  

FWIW, in the big picture, the Black Death had tremendously beneficial effects for human society as a whole. It brought about the Renaissance, with its advances in art and science, a new way of thinking, higher social mobility. 
Nobody disputes that Covid absolutely sucks right now, both for the ill and dying, and for those who fight so hard to prevent it. But it's pointless to bemoan the possible changes of society - they may well be positive. We have no clue.

Edited August 3, 2021 by regentrude