The “vaccination divide” in the US

[Junie]

The Hive helped me to convince someone to get vaccinated this week.  The person was concerned about side effects as they knew several people who got pretty ill (fever, vomiting) from the vaccine.  I told them that my imaginary friends here did a poll and most people only experienced major side effects from the second shot.  They decided to get at least one shot and maybe get the second shot later.  I felt like it was a good compromise.

[Soror]

14 hours ago, Frances said:

We already know who is sick and dying. It’s not some deep mystery. As the Alabama governor says, it’s common sense.

https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2021/07/its-time-to-start-blaming-the-unvaccinated-folks-says-alabama-gov-after-rise-in-covid-19-cases.html

We know in my state as well. Spoiler alert all the people in the ICU are unvaccinated.  In another city we have have had to call in help from another state for overrun hospital. Our governor just started a lottery for the vaccine and was talking about the treatments we have. We still have people dying and health care workers overworked with more risk so other people can have their precious choice..  Screw all those can't get vaccinated.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/07/24/metro/southwest-missouri-coronavirus-delta-variant-freedom-collide/

https://www.ksmu.org/post/help-coming-state-mo-address-growing-numbers-covid-cases-springfield-area#stream/0

Edited July 25, 2021 by Soror

[freesia]

8 hours ago, frogger said:

I have a feeling there is group waiting for full FDA approval rather than accept an emergency authorization. I don't know how big that group is but I expect a little bump. 

I know for sure this is true in some cases. Dh really wants to wait for the full approval for our dd who turned 12 in April. She is very low risk and atm we have low numbers, everyone in the house is vaccinated as is close to 80% of our area so her risk to others is lowish, too. I would probably get her vaccinated but am playing the long game ( dh comes from a non-vaccine family ( he and dsil were not vaccinated as children) who have all gotten the vaccine. He just sees her risk as no more than flu rn and wants to give it more time “in case.”  So, yes, there are folks waiting for full approval. 

[QueenCat]

On 7/23/2021 at 6:34 PM, lewelma said:

We have freedom of speech here too, but I think that you aren't allowed to say stuff that hurts other people.  There is a name for that even in the USA, and it is banned. 

Here is the site that tells you where to dob in misinformation

https://www.cert.govt.nz/individuals/common-threats/covid-19-vaccine-scams/report-covid-19-vaccine-scams-or-misinformation/

"Stopping the spread of mis and disinformation about the COVID-19 vaccine will limit any potential confusion for New Zealanders and help them to make informed decisions about the vaccine.

If possible,

• Send us the link of the website if the content is online.
• If you see COVID-19 misinformation on social media, report it to the platform (for example, Facebook or Twitter).
• If it is a physical item, such as a leaflet, email us a photograph and if possible details of where and how you received it.
• Include when you received the item and where it came from."

 

In the U.S., you can say things that hurt other people or companies as long as it is TRUE. If it's not true, it's either libel or slander, depending on whether it's written or oral. 

[Happy2BaMom]

20 hours ago, calbear said:

I didn't make any claims about it or interpret what she said. You are ascribing statements and conclusions by other posters to me that I didn't make anywhere in this thread or elsewhere on the forums. 

Wow...didn't you just do this to me? 

I was just telling you she did really go to the area so that you could see what she said as you asked for a media source that wasn't a conservative news outlet. 

I wasn’t responding to you, my add-on to you was meant to be more of an FYI. 
 

 

[Hyacinth]

10 hours ago, frogger said:

I have a feeling there is group waiting for full FDA approval rather than accept an emergency authorization. I don't know how big that group is but I expect a little bump. 

The availability of Novavax, too, could cause a bump. People who are leery of  mRNA for whatever reason might see the value of immunization from a more familiar technology. 

[Kanin]

19 hours ago, katilac said:

They do now, that's extremely recent. As is the "we're in this together" rhetoric. Hannity has already walked by some of this statements. I'm still super glad to see it. 

Tucker Carlson remains a holdout.

If Tucker Carlson isn't vaccinated, shouldn't he be wearing a mask? I read that it's Fox News policy that unvaccinated people wear masks in the building.

[Hyacinth]

19 minutes ago, Kanin said:

If Tucker Carlson isn't vaccinated, shouldn't he be wearing a mask? I read that it's Fox News policy that unvaccinated people wear masks in the building.

 

20 hours ago, katilac said:

They do now, that's extremely recent. As is the "we're in this together" rhetoric. Hannity has already walked by some of this statements. I'm still super glad to see it. 

Tucker Carlson remains a holdout.

Many of the Fox personalities have been pro-vaccine from the beginning. As per usual in all environments, the loudest or most controversial voices don’t necessarily represent the whole. 

[SKL]

14 hours ago, KSera said:

I don’t know the answer to the demographics, but I am still puzzled why you understand the reasons that some over 50s you know don’t want to be vaccinated, but the reasons given that some Black people haven’t been vaccinated “don’t fly.”  The logic given by the over 50s is as bad or worse, since they are at higher risk. Again, I personally think both groups should be protecting themselves and others with the vaccine, but that seems like a double standard. 

In the first case I am going by the reasons that certain people are personally saying to me.  In the second case we're talking about theories that are not coming directly from the individuals not being vaxed.

If a black unvaccinated person told me "I'm not getting this vax because I think the government is conspiring to hurt me with it," then I would believe that is their reason.  I still would not agree that it is a rational reason, given that the majority of non-black adults in the US have gotten the vax and not been particularly hurt by it.  Unless there is some serious theory somewhere that the vax targets black people's genetics or something.

As far as the older holdouts I know, they can point to the actual fact that a number of older, unhealthy people have died very shortly after being vaccinated.  They can also point to the fact that they have a personal history of very severe reactions to vaccination.  They can also point to the fact that their statistical risk of having something worse than that happen to them due to Covid is extremely low, given the various ways they are protected from Covid.

[melmichigan]

On 7/24/2021 at 4:15 PM, katilac said:

They do now, that's extremely recent. As is the "we're in this together" rhetoric. Hannity has already walked by some of this statements. I'm still super glad to see it. 

Tucker Carlson remains a holdout.

I wonder if the FTC complaint has anything to do with it.

Edited July 25, 2021 by melmichigan

[Fritz]

1 hour ago, Hyacinth said:

 

Many of the Fox personalities have been pro-vaccine from the beginning. As per usual in all environments, the loudest or most controversial voices don’t necessarily represent the whole. 

But that doesn't fit the narrative of the MSM. The one network that refuses to march in lock step with the State TV must surely be to blame for low vaccination rates🙄. If only they would join in reading the DNC talking points like ALL the others!

Edited July 25, 2021 by Fritz

[Dmmetler]

I found this thread interesting 

 

[Kanin]

4 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

 

Many of the Fox personalities have been pro-vaccine from the beginning. As per usual in all environments, the loudest or most controversial voices don’t necessarily represent the whole. 

I know. I wonder if he IS vaccinated but still spreading doubt. 

[Pen]

On 7/24/2021 at 12:20 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

Immunity wanes over time which is how vaccinated children can get pertussis. However, the root cause of the outbreak is unvaccinated children. 

I think you're entitled to your own opinion but I'm not sure that you're entitled to spread false information. 

You write that it accords with your own education? Do you mean your education or your opinion? Or things you read yourself? 

I mean education related to immunology in my youth. 

 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Fritz said:

But that doesn't fit the narrative of the MSM. The one network that refuses to march in lock step with the State TV must surely be to blame for low vaccination rates🙄. If only they would join in reading the DNC talking points like ALL the others!

So was Fox News State TV during the last administration? And where does Newsmax fit in? MSM or not? Is mainstream media just anything that doesn’t have a right or far right bias? Or are all cable news channels not MSM?

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

I mean education related to immunology in my youth. 

 

So how is that you think you know more than actual immunologists who not only studied immunology in their youth, but got a medical degree, did a medical residency, passed board exams, and are practicing professionals?

I’m sure you’re familiar with the saying regarding a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. In the case of the pandemic, it’s not just dangerous, but potentially deadly.

[ScoutTN]

I know quite a few people who were hesitant that have recently gotten the shot. Various reasons for hesitancy, not political. Many of them chose the J&J over the mRNA options.

 

[SoCal_Bear]

14 hours ago, freesia said:

I know for sure this is true in some cases. Dh really wants to wait for the full approval for our dd who turned 12 in April. She is very low risk and atm we have low numbers, everyone in the house is vaccinated as is close to 80% of our area so her risk to others is lowish, too. I would probably get her vaccinated but am playing the long game ( dh comes from a non-vaccine family ( he and dsil were not vaccinated as children) who have all gotten the vaccine. He just sees her risk as no more than flu rn and wants to give it more time “in case.”  So, yes, there are folks waiting for full approval. 

If I was making this decision, whether or not she also hit puberty already would be a deciding factor. 

 

[Tenaj]

1 hour ago, calbear said:

If I was making this decision, whether or not she also hit puberty already would be a deciding factor. 

Could you clarify what you mean here?  I have a dd turning 12 early in September and have been going back and forth about the vaccine.  Are you saying you would go ahead and vaccinate if puberty was already started?

[HeartString]

17 minutes ago, Plum said:

It's not just the US, there is a vaccine divide in the world as well. Just look at the protests in France, the UK and NSW. 

I don't see how this all ends. Say all of America gets 100% vaccinated while the rest of the world lags behind and creates more variants. All the while our immunity wanes and we have to get boosters that the rest of the world won't have access to. The vaccinated still seem to be transmitting Delta which means more spread which means more variants. It doesn't seem like a good idea to create this divide through mandate, shame and blame when we aren't really eliminating this and we're are not shutting our borders anytime soon. 

If we were really interested in closing the divide, we should stop trying to control other people. We aren't going to get down to zero cases. That's an unrealistic goal.

Instead, we should be focusing on transparency. We should track ALL breakthrough infections and take an honest look at ALL reactions. We should encourage widespread testing for anyone who wants it, not just the symptomatic. We should be developing or repurposing cheap over the counter treatments that could be widely available to all countries. What incentives does big pharma have to end this?

If they really wanted to bridge the divide, they'd have Fauci step down from the public for awhile and bring someone else out that both sides trust and listen to. There's a chunk of the remaining unvaccinated population that isn't going to believe anything that comes out of the current WH or the msm and a new face that has less baggage or is even a moderate to conservative would go a long way. There are a lot of D's that worship him. He's not bringing anything new to the table for them. The big questions is do the holdout unvaccinated trust him? I don't think so. He's not going to convince them to do anything.  

That is, if they were really interested in bridging the gap. Otherwise, it's all politics and noise. 

I think you are right, but I also think it’s impossible.  There are too many people that fear the contact tracing as being nefarious. There’s weird religious stuff mixed up in it, with the mark of the beast stuff.  Cooperating with contact tracers is seen as turning people in to the authorities.  I don’t know why so many people are like that, but I don’t think it’s fixable in the short to medium term.

   I also truly do not think there is anyone that could replace Fauci as someone both sides trust, because there is no such person, and if there was, the minute he or she started saying the pro public health things they would be demonized by the same people that hate Fauci.  A living apple pie wrapped in an American flag would be demonized in that position.  
 

If it were possible for Big Pharma to find a cheap treatment for this, they could always jack the price way up and reap pure profit, like they do with insulin. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by HeartString

[SoCal_Bear]

51 minutes ago, JanOH said:

Could you clarify what you mean here?  I have a dd turning 12 early in September and have been going back and forth about the vaccine.  Are you saying you would go ahead and vaccinate if puberty was already started?

For males, onset of puberty increases the expression of ACE2 receptors. There is a sex difference here. The difference in ACE2 is why males have more severe outcomes than women with Covid...but on balance women have more long Covid because our immune systems react differently.

https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-020-02942-2/figures/1

 

[Laura Corin]

3 hours ago, Plum said:

It's not just the US, there is a vaccine divide in the world as well. Just look at the protests in France, the UK and NSW. 

I don't see how this all ends. Say all of America gets 100% vaccinated while the rest of the world lags behind and creates more variants. All the while our immunity wanes and we have to get boosters that the rest of the world won't have access to. The vaccinated still seem to be transmitting Delta which means more spread which means more variants. It doesn't seem like a good idea to create this divide through mandate, shame and blame when we aren't really eliminating this and we are not shutting our borders anytime soon. 

If we were really interested in closing the divide, we should stop trying to control other people. We aren't going to get down to zero cases. That's an unrealistic goal.

Instead, we should be focusing on transparency. We should track ALL breakthrough infections and take an honest look at ALL reactions. We should encourage widespread testing for anyone who wants it, not just the symptomatic. We should be developing or repurposing cheap over the counter treatments that could be widely available to all countries. What incentives does big pharma have to end this?

If they really wanted to bridge the divide, they'd have Fauci step down from the public for awhile and bring someone else out that both sides trust and listen to. There's a chunk of the remaining unvaccinated population that isn't going to believe anything that comes out of the current WH or the msm and a new face that has less baggage or is even a moderate to conservative or a scientist that can speak their language would go a long way. There are a lot of D's that worship him. He's not bringing anything new to the table for them. The big questions is do the holdout unvaccinated trust him? I don't think so. He's not going to convince them to do anything.  

That is, if they were really interested in bridging the gap. Otherwise, it's all politics and noise. 

The vaccine divide is much more political in the US than the UK. This article gives a breakdown by ethnicity, region, deprivation,  etc. There isn't a breakdown by voting pattern or political leaning  because it's  not very relevant here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55274833

Edited July 26, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Spy Car]

On 7/23/2021 at 2:05 PM, Muttichen1 said:

Oh my goodness. I don't rely on the WHO. I randomly picked that as an example of something I read in conservative media and then backed it up with a primary source that contradicted your "fact check."

No, what you did was to lie about what the WHO said.

Bill

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Plum said:

It's not just the US, there is a vaccine divide in the world as well. Just look at the protests in France, the UK and NSW. 

I don't see how this all ends. Say all of America gets 100% vaccinated while the rest of the world lags behind and creates more variants. All the while our immunity wanes and we have to get boosters that the rest of the world won't have access to. The vaccinated still seem to be transmitting Delta which means more spread which means more variants. It doesn't seem like a good idea to create this divide through mandate, shame and blame when we aren't really eliminating this and we are not shutting our borders anytime soon. 

If we were really interested in closing the divide, we should stop trying to control other people. We aren't going to get down to zero cases. That's an unrealistic goal.

Instead, we should be focusing on transparency. We should track ALL breakthrough infections and take an honest look at ALL reactions. We should encourage widespread testing for anyone who wants it, not just the symptomatic. We should be developing or repurposing cheap over the counter treatments that could be widely available to all countries. What incentives does big pharma have to end this?

If they really wanted to bridge the divide, they'd have Fauci step down from the public for awhile and bring someone else out that both sides trust and listen to. There's a chunk of the remaining unvaccinated population that isn't going to believe anything that comes out of the current WH or the msm and a new face that has less baggage or is even a moderate to conservative or a scientist that can speak their language would go a long way. There are a lot of D's that worship him. He's not bringing anything new to the table for them. The big questions is do the holdout unvaccinated trust him? I don't think so. He's not going to convince them to do anything.  

That is, if they were really interested in bridging the gap. Otherwise, it's all politics and noise. 

I really don’t see how finding a new National spokesperson is going to make any difference at all. How is that going to get people to stop believing all of the misinformation and conspiracy theories concerning covid and the vaccines? Maybe if Trump would do it, but that would be very out of character for him. Or perhaps if the Republican Governor of Alabama gets results with her straight talk, she could be taken national.

But research has shown that one of the most effective strategies is having people talk personally with a trusted doctor. And also that the approach needs to be localized which is going on almost everywhere now. Local public health officials are trying everything possible. Here’s a very depressing read about Louisiana.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/us/politics/louisiana-covid-vaccine-misinformation.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

Also, many people are resistant to testing and contract testing, just as they are to masking and vaccines. Many people don’t seem to understand or care that good public health work and data relies on public cooperation.

Do you not think that lots of people are not working to develop treatments, whether over the counter or otherwise and also as has been done all along, looking at repurposing drugs? I don’t have any love for big Pharma, but I admit to being confused by what you think is not being done that could be so easily done. Although he doesn’t work in the drug industry, my husband’s PhD is in one of the two common specialties for those in the industry, plus he’s a pharmacist. So we’ve talked quite a bit about this. I’m wondering what we’re missing that you you know when it comes to drugs for treating covid. I honestly don’t mean this in a snarky way, I’m just confused.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Frances

[Jean in Newcastle]

There is plenty of accurate non-political, non-woo, scientifically accurate by actual practicing doctors who actually know about epidemiology and virology as well as data collected in the past year to make a decision for getting a vaccine.  Anyone who ignores what is out there is trying to ignore what is out there and/or is actively seeking "alternative" views for some reason I can't understand.  At least in first world countries. 

I have zero, zip, zilch patience for it anymore. 

[lewelma]

Doctors here in NZ are likely to lose their licence if they are peddling covid vaccination misinformation.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/445179/doctors-spreading-misinformation-about-covid-19-may-lose-their-job-medical-council

Free speech here is strong. But there are limitations including negative impacts to public health and safety.  You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. And you can't put out misinformation about the covid vaccine. 

NZ is #8 worldwide for free press (usa is #44): https://rsf.org/en/ranking

However, freedom of expression can be limited in order to protect national security, public order, or public health.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_New_Zealand#Limitations

The NZ government is restricting misinformation on the covid vaccine. 

https://www.cert.govt.nz/individuals/common-threats/covid-19-vaccine-scams/covid-19-vaccine-misinformation/

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by lewelma

[Muttichen1]

6 hours ago, Spy Car said:

No, what you did was to lie about what the WHO said.

Bill

Then show me where the WHO recommends the vaccine for kids under 18, because all I said is that they don't. You all can quibble all day that not saying kids shouldn't get it is different than not saying kids should get it. All I said is that they recommend the vaccine for people over 18. Show me where they say anything different -- from the WHO website, not from a fact checker trying to spin it.

[Spryte]

From: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice
 

WHO's Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) has concluded that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine is suitable for use by people aged 12 years and above. Children aged between 12 and 15 who are at high risk may be offered this vaccine alongside other priority groups for vaccination. Vaccine trials for children are ongoing and WHO will update its recommendations when the evidence or epidemiological situation warrants a change in policy.

[Muttichen1]

43 minutes ago, Spryte said:

From: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice
 

WHO's Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) has concluded that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine is suitable for use by people aged 12 years and above. Children aged between 12 and 15 who are at high risk may be offered this vaccine alongside other priority groups for vaccination. Vaccine trials for children are ongoing and WHO will update its recommendations when the evidence or epidemiological situation warrants a change in policy.

You left out the previous paragraph:

"More evidence is needed on the use of the different COVID-19 vaccines in children to be able to make general recommendations on vaccinating children against COVID-19.

 

WHO's Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) has concluded that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine is suitable for use by people aged 12 years and above. Children aged between 12 and 15 who are at high risk may be offered this vaccine alongside other priority groups for vaccination. Vaccine trials for children are ongoing and WHO will update its recommendations when the evidence or epidemiological situation warrants a change in policy."

 

Yes, they say it's suitable, but they say we need more evidence in whether to recommend it. Are we sure the benefits are worth the risk in kids?

[Laura Corin]

5 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

You left out the previous paragraph:

"More evidence is needed on the use of the different COVID-19 vaccines in children to be able to make general recommendations on vaccinating children against COVID-19.

 

WHO's Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) has concluded that the Pfizer/BionTech vaccine is suitable for use by people aged 12 years and above. Children aged between 12 and 15 who are at high risk may be offered this vaccine alongside other priority groups for vaccination. Vaccine trials for children are ongoing and WHO will update its recommendations when the evidence or epidemiological situation warrants a change in policy."

 

Yes, they say it's suitable, but they say we need more evidence in whether to recommend it. Are we sure the benefits are worth the risk in kids?

This is still being discussed in the UK. Vaccination is recommended for children at high risk but not yet others.

This may also be based on vaccine supplies - we are awaiting new shipments.

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, Plum said:

What I'm saying is, there is an immediate shutdown when it comes to repurposing drugs for off label use because they lack the gold standard of studies in the midst of a pandemic and perhaps because they aren't going to make big pharma any money

What about dexamethasone? So far that’s the one that has the strongest supporting studies and is being widely used. And it’s cheap. I don’t think the narrative that no one wants to find inexpensive drugs that work is supported. 

[Spryte]

Yes, my reading of the entire page is that the jury is out on a blanket recommendation like “take whichever shot is available first.” So, no general recommendation to take any of the available shots.  However, SAGE has concluded that Pfizer is suitable for use in kids 12 and up.  Of course, it’s the only one being offered to kids, too, at least in the US.  They will make a general recommendation about all the different shots available when more evidence comes in.

 

[ktgrok]

11 hours ago, Plum said:

I The vaccinated still seem to be transmitting Delta which means more spread which means more variants.

Just to clarify for anyone, even though there are more breakthrough cases with Delta than other variants, vaccination still does prevent a significant percent of infections, which means fewer people transmitting. And it seems to likely lower viral load, which also means less transmission. 

It isn't as good as we would like, but the best option for reducing cases and transmission. 

[Laura Corin]

10 minutes ago, KSera said:

What about dexamethasone? So far that’s the one that has the strongest supporting studies and is being widely used. And it’s cheap. I don’t think the narrative that no one wants to find inexpensive drugs that work is supported. 

Yes.  This was the result of a massive, NHS-based random controlled trial.  Hydroxychloroquine is currently being studied in a similar large trial.

[Dmmetler]

Also, most of the world has less vaccine than people who need it AND are willing to take it. So, prioritizing high risk individuals, which does not include most children, makes sense. In the USA, we have enough vaccine that if we can get those middle/high school kids vaccinated before school starts, it would be very, very beneficial, because it would let them have a much more normal school year and protect those students, faculty, and staff who cannot be vaccinated, as well as reduce the likelihood that at risk family members will contract it through community spread. 

 

WHO isn't just looking at the USA, but countries in Africa where vaccination is almost unavailable. In that situation, using Pfizer on a healthy 12 yr old over a less healthy 60 yr old doesn't make sense. But setting priorities does not equal "not safe for kids" or "not recommended WHEN the supply of vaccine is enough to make it a viable option". 

[Dmmetler]

I will also add-I've seen three medical professionals since COVID started. All three had OTC or cheap/readily available suggestions. My Endo checked blood levels and upped my vitamin D. My Immunologist suggested other vitamins to add that affect immune system functioning and added low dose aspirin. My allergist upped my dosage of prescription level zyrtec, flonase, and mucinex and suggested adding tumeric to reduce inflammation.  All three told me to get the vaccine ASAP, although the allergist had a list of conditions which led to me getting it at a clinic run by paramedics that had closer observation and several ambulances idling and ready to go. 

 

[mommyoffive]

55 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I will also add-I've seen three medical professionals since COVID started. All three had OTC or cheap/readily available suggestions. My Endo checked blood levels and upped my vitamin D. My Immunologist suggested other vitamins to add that affect immune system functioning and added low dose aspirin. My allergist upped my dosage of prescription level zyrtec, flonase, and mucinex and suggested adding tumeric to reduce inflammation.  All three told me to get the vaccine ASAP, although the allergist had a list of conditions which led to me getting it at a clinic run by paramedics that had closer observation and several ambulances idling and ready to go. 

 

I am curious what the other vitamins that your immunologist suggested.  Do you take the allergy meds all the time or only when needed? 

[Dmmetler]

9 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

I am curious what the other vitamins that your immunologist suggested.  Do you take the allergy meds all the time or only when needed? 

I have both a daily protocol and a surge protocol. The goal is to avoid reactions, but then to be able to up the amount as needed.  The daily protocol is H1 and H2 inhibitors, plus prescription Flonaise. The surge protocol adds higher doses of H1 and hydroxine, as well as an oral decongestant, plus an inhaler as needed.  The goal is to avoid having to use steroids. 

 

I've been taking D, C with Quercetin, Zinc, B complex, and a general multi. The goal is basically just to support the immune system as much as possible, in the hopes that it will be able to fight off infection without overreacting too badly. 

[Scarlett]

On 7/25/2021 at 5:56 AM, freesia said:

I know for sure this is true in some cases. Dh really wants to wait for the full approval for our dd who turned 12 in April. She is very low risk and atm we have low numbers, everyone in the house is vaccinated as is close to 80% of our area so her risk to others is lowish, too. I would probably get her vaccinated but am playing the long game ( dh comes from a non-vaccine family ( he and dsil were not vaccinated as children) who have all gotten the vaccine. He just sees her risk as no more than flu rn and wants to give it more time “in case.”  So, yes, there are folks waiting for full approval. 

But her risk is not the only risk.   If she gets it she can give it to someone who is high risk.  

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

Maybe because contact tracing was a joke when we went through it. He got a call a month and a half late after he went back in for his negative test to return to work. That negative test triggered a quarantine for the whole family. It was ridiculous. We notified everyone we came into contact with immediately after the positive test. 

Right, there is absolutely no one in the world that both sides will listen to so lets keep Fauci. 

They could absolutely jack up the price like they do with insulin and many drugs. There's nothing stopping them from doing that either. Remdesivir is a lot of money per dose. FDA has approved one drug, remdesivir (Veklury), for the treatment of COVID-19 in hospitalized patients aged 12 years and older who weigh at least 40 kg. Veklury, in its current FDA-approved use for hospitalized patients, brought in sales of $1.94 billion in the fourth quarter of 2020 alone. But for 2021, Gilead’s projecting a total haul between $2 billion and $3 billion, depending on how the pandemic evolves. 

 

I stand corrected. UK is one of the highest vaccination countries. I was going through my head thinking of protests, but UK has had mainly mitigation measure protests, right? France, Greece and Germany seem to have a vaccination divide. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/26/europe/europe-vaccine-mandate-passport-certificate-intl-gbr-cmd/index.html

 

My direct quote: We should be developing or repurposing cheap over the counter treatments that could be widely available to all countries. What incentives does big pharma have to end this?

It's not that I don't think we are developing treatments at all. I know supercomputers have been used to look at ideal candidates and there is lots of work being done. We have a clinic here that is participating in the NIH ACTIV-2 study. 

What I'm saying is, there is an immediate shutdown when it comes to repurposing drugs for off label use because they lack the gold standard of studies in the midst of a pandemic and perhaps because they aren't going to make big pharma any money. I'm saying there may be candidates out there that could be used right now but aren't. Sometimes it's as simple as the code for the pills doesn't line up with the code for the diagnosis and so the insurance rejects it. (said as a complete layman)

I'm not afraid to ask stupid questions or be wrong about something. I just want the truth and not some politicized monetarily driven response. 

Just to be clear, I don’t care one way or another if they keep Fauci, I’ve never even heard him speak. I just don’t think the national level is where what happens is going to influence people anymore. Research, polling, and on the ground experiences show local and personal make the difference for the vaccine hesitant. As for the vaccine resistant, I think it would take either Trump very strongly publicly and repeatedly advocating for vaccination or several of the big name personalities/politicians who embraced covid and vaccine misinformation and conspiracy theories to do a 180 and come out strongly in favor. Even then, I’m really not sure it would work.

As you didn’t mention off label use in your original post, I think that was part of my confusion, since they are actively using some already existing drugs for treatment, including some very cheap and generic ones. And in general, off label use of drugs is not uncommon. I’ve personally experienced it.

As for contact tracing, unfortunately I’m not surprised at all by your experience. Public health has long been underfunded in this country, so lots of agencies very quickly found themselves overwhelmed. And as more and more people refused to cooperate after staffing improved, it became something of a losing proposition in parts of the country. Public health agencies are now having to devote considerable resources to convincing the vaccine hesitant and resistant all while facing enormous backlash in some areas. Although of course things could be better, I do think most have done pretty darn good considering a not insignificant part of the country doesn’t seem to grasp the public part of public health.

[freesia]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

But her risk is not the only risk.   If she gets it she can give it to someone who is high risk.  

Yes, that’s why we are keeping an eye on numbers, etc. because of camps and grandma visits she has also been tested once a week for the last month. Before that numbers were very very low in our area and still are fairly low. But, I am aware of this and dh and I are discussing it again. 

[QueenCat]

5 hours ago, Muttichen1 said:

Then show me where the WHO recommends the vaccine for kids under 18, because all I said is that they don't. You all can quibble all day that not saying kids shouldn't get it is different than not saying kids should get it. All I said is that they recommend the vaccine for people over 18. Show me where they say anything different -- from the WHO website, not from a fact checker trying to spin it.

 

Spy Car is a longstanding, reputable member of this group. You are new here. I would suggest you not start out by throwing accusations at people. 

[freesia]

3 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

 

Spy Car is a longstanding, reputable member of this group. You are new here. I would suggest you not start out by throwing accusations at people. 

I don’t think she’s new. I think she’s back after a long break. 

[Laura Corin]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

I don’t think she’s new. I think she’s back after a long break. 

I agree - I recognise the name.

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

I have both a daily protocol and a surge protocol. The goal is to avoid reactions, but then to be able to up the amount as needed.  The daily protocol is H1 and H2 inhibitors, plus prescription Flonaise. The surge protocol adds higher doses of H1 and hydroxine, as well as an oral decongestant, plus an inhaler as needed.  The goal is to avoid having to use steroids. 

 

I've been taking D, C with Quercetin, Zinc, B complex, and a general multi. The goal is basically just to support the immune system as much as possible, in the hopes that it will be able to fight off infection without overreacting too badly. 

I take the same supplements (plus some more for my particular problems).  But as you said earlier, I am still vaxed.  I actually trust the vaccination to protect me from Covid more than my protocol. 

[Meriwether]

36 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

 

Spy Car is a longstanding, reputable member of this group. You are new here. I would suggest you not start out by throwing accusations at people. 

Spy Car is quite capable of defending himself. 🤣

 

And what is with the gatekeeping? I've noticed it fairly often recently. But, of course, new posters who post the "right" things don't get admonished.

 

(I've been here over a decade, although I don't post that often.)

[whitestavern]

5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Just to clarify for anyone, even though there are more breakthrough cases with Delta than other variants, vaccination still does prevent a significant percent of infections, which means fewer people transmitting. And it seems to likely lower viral load, which also means less transmission. 

It isn't as good as we would like, but the best option for reducing cases and transmission. 

How do we know it's preventing infections when we are not testing asymptomatic or symptomatic cases in the vaccinated?

[Dmmetler]

30 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I take the same supplements (plus some more for my particular problems).  But as you said earlier, I am still vaxed.  I actually trust the vaccination to protect me from Covid more than my protocol. 

Me, too. This was what was prescribed a year ago, when I was stuck going back into a classroom with kids months before any vaccine was available. And I got my vaccine the first day I could get it, back when getting an appointment felt like buying tickets from Ticketmaster on dial-up!

[Muttichen1]

58 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

 

Spy Car is a longstanding, reputable member of this group. You are new here. I would suggest you not start out by throwing accusations at people. 

Who threw out an accusation? He accused me of lying. I asked him to show me where I'm wrong.

And I'm not new. I've been here many years but lost my account in one of the changes and have mostly lurked since then. 

Really, if you all want to understand why people are hesitant to get the vaccine, just look at this discussion of the WHO recommendations. I said they don't recommend the vaccine for people under 18 and I was accused of believing/spreading misinformation and lying. I showed from their website that this was accurate. They recommend the vaccine for people 18 and up and say they need more information before making a recommendation for younger kids. I never said they say kids under 18 shouldn't get it. 

The point is, any discussion of risks of the vaccine is shut down as misinformation. There is no way I'd get a vaccine knowing that. I want to give informed consent and that means openly discussing the risks and benefits, not living in a bubble where any negatives are dismissed as right wing conspiracy theories. You're not going to convince anyone this way.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Muttichen1
Typo

[Janeway]

On 7/23/2021 at 5:35 AM, Quill said:

I struggle to understand the psychology behind the “two Americas” when it comes to vaccine uptake for COVID-19. When I read, for example, Massachusetts, Connecticut and New York have 70%+ uptake, but Mississippi, Alabama and Arkansas has less than 45% uptake, I am so curious about the social behavior and individual psychology behind those stats, particularly because that does not necessarily correlate to other vaccines. (IOW, I don’t think Alabama is a hotbed of people who also refuse the MMR, Varicella, etc.) 

I live in Maryland which, in some ways is a perfect microcosm of the two Americas. If I turn left out of my driveway, I move towards the highly liberal section, lots of masking (even now) and high compliance with vaccination. If I turn right out my driveway, I move towards the opposite. The town to the right is where I encountered the man in the store declaring mask-wearing was “Tie-ranny!” 

I wonder how much identity has to do with it and I wonder how much social clusters have to do with it as well. (If most of your friends are vaxxed, you are more likely to see it as normal/obvious; if most are refusing, you are more likely to not see the point/benefit.) it’s also interesting to me when people “cross over”; a man I was talking to recently said, “I’m a Conservative, but I believe in science! Yes, I got the vaccine.” But I wonder if that man would still think that way if he lived in a place surrounded by friends and family who think “I’m a Conservative” = vaccine refusal. 

Just musing about this today. 

I do not think being conservative means not believing in science. I also do not think using the vaccinations means believing in science. In fact, I hate that term "believe in science" because it usually means that whatever is told to us, that could have a science basis, is infallible and should never be questioned. REAL science always means asking, asking, asking, questioning, testing, etc. And whatever we know now, in 100 years, we will know some of it to be totally wrong and we will know a bunch more about other parents of it. I know that no one today would use a 200 year old science textbook to teach and say it is totally accurate. Likewise, everything we believe today will be tested and a portion will be proven wrong and some day, people will look back on this age and think about how little we knew. (think of the Star Trek movie where they go back in time to what was current times when the movie was made and the doctor said how archaic the medicine was when he was in the hospital).