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If you were planning to send your unvax kid to school this fall, what are you thinking now?


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My zip code is 80%+ vaccinated.  The kids wear masks and have daily temperature checks.  I keep them home for a full year until I was vaccinated, but I’m comfortable sending them back in the fall.  Mine are younger though, so one classroom all day.  I’m hesitant to do after school which involves mixing. 

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DD is 11.5 and we're still planning on sending her to school which starts in August. I'm nervous about it but I think she would revolt if I said she had to stay home again. She is at an age where she needs to be with friends. She hates Zoom. 

I can't ask her to lose another year of her life while her friends go on with their lives. 

The school hasn't officially announced their COVID precautions yet but I don't expect them to do much. I anticipate that the upcoming school year will be the same as pre-COVID. No masks, no social distancing. DD will be going to Catholic school so I expect that many of the adults won't be vaccinated. Not that I'll know because it's DADT. 

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We briefly considered it but are letting the kid (11.5) stay home another year.  We're still hoping they start vaccinating children in the fall.

After school activities, at least for him, are more secure.  We know the protocol of most of his team and the parents are pretty medically minded.  His book club will meet outside with each kid bringing their own chair.  Scouts is outside for now, but may move indoors, and the younger kids stay masked.  He has a small circle of friends that we trust and all of us are in agreement with the type of risks we let our kids take (they're also the same group of friends that overlap in those three activities).

I'm working on getting a degree in elementary education, so I'll be the one going to school weekly for classroom work and doing 3 classes at the college.  It would have made it easier if ds was going as well, but we'll juggle him at home.

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If the adults in the household have vax protection, I would send him to school.  If there is a concerning immunity issue in the household, does the school system have a temporary virtual option?  I would ask about that before deciding.

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We are struggling. Vax rate in our state is 33%, in our county 48%. No school (public or private) that I can find is requiring masks. It’s 100% back to normal. Lunch in cafeteria. Visitors allowed in classrooms. 
 

DH thinks rising rates will make schools change their minds. I don’t think so. We are at odds and don’t have a clear path forward. School starts in 2 weeks. 

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We considered but decided against sending our older kids to school this year.  I would have been fine with it, though, if none of my kids had factors to put them at higher risk.  But we didn't want them bringing germs home to little brother.

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We wouldn't be sending our kids this year anyway as we virtual school.   Before I made up my mind it would matter what the rates were around me, the vax rates, and what precautions they were taking.  I have heard a lot of schools not taking any at all.  That would be a no go for me.  Even my vaxxed kids I am not comfortable them going somewhere with 0 precautions with Delta in play and I think the rise in rates is only going to increase come fall.    If they had precautions and everyone masked and vax rates are high then maybe.

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Well... let's put it this way. We homeschooled for middle school in no small part because a middle school with a thousand students or more is ridiculous. There's no need for middle schools to be that populous, and it's no good for the students.

So already I'm looking at your top post and saying "no way".

But if my main worry was covid then I think it'd depend on factors like the infection and vaccination rates where I am, the odds of somebody in my household getting seriously ill from covid, and everybody's willingness to be stuck together another year.

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Our local district has not announced their precautions for next school year.  
 

I feel like I need more information, about delta and about the plans for next year.

 

My kids did attend last year, and I kept them out for a while over concerns, but then — I do think that the combination of the precautions and the way the virus was then, I really was okay with it.  We took major precautions with grandparents until they were vaccinated.
 

Now I am glad we have some time to see what information comes about delta.

 

I think there is not enough information right now.

 

 

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I have two kids who will be in high school and both will be fully vaccinated by that point.

My 11 year old daughter will be homeschooled but she'll be vaccinated once she turns 12 in September.

Our youngest is 9 but is at higher risk for multiple reasons. He started back to summer school and I'm kind of waiting to see how that goes before making a final decision. He's in a self-contained special ed classroom with 6 kids and 4 fully vaccinated adults and won't be mixing with other kids very much. His immunologist and pulmonologist, who encouraged us to keep him home last year, have ok'd his return to school. Masks are optional but he will be wearing a high-quality one regardless. 

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I think I would be worried about delta even in an area with good vaccination rates, because so many kids go to multi-state travel team tournaments.  Or gymnastics tournaments.

I think there are parts of the country where — even a 4-state area would all have good vaccination rates.

But 100% of kids under 12 would be unvaccinated, so if that is the age, that would be the pool of kids the kids would actually be around.  

 

So you know — then it matters if they will be wearing masks or not, and comfort level with eating precautions, and if those precautions are good enough for delta.  Because they were good enough for me last year, but it took time for me to find that out, and I was a lot less comfortable with feeling the precautions were acceptable before I felt like we really had the information.


Here sports were a common thing where precautions were blown off by many, and I don’t expect that to change.

 

If there were more precautions with sports that would go a long way to me.  Here there was a big line with precautions followed in school but not in a lot of sports.  
 

And the thing there is — those were some of the same kids having the worst mental health type problems, so it’s not like I am saying it is so horrible.  I don’t think it’s so horrible.  But it is a factor for me, because right now I have no reason to think travel sports will not be happening next year, and then it’s like a guarantee there will be kids going and staying at hotels to play in tournaments — it is just a thing that I expect to happen.  

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I am somewhat worried about my child getting covid, or bringing the virus home to Pop (vaccinated but still a risk at 90) or his newborn cousin, but I am more worried about contributing to spread, and having that lead to variants that are worse than Delta.  

Even though we managed not to get it, covid had a devastating impact on our family.  I want to be part of making sure that terrible sacrifices losses like what we experienced don’t keep happening to other families, and if we can’t stop it we can at least not contribute to it.  We are in a position where I think school would be better than homeschool for my kids but not hugely so.  We could make homeschool work.  

So, of course I worry about my own kids.  My son’s disease had a lot of similarities to MIS-C, and the ideas of dealing with that again with another child is terrifying.  But my motivation is more coming from the community spread issue.

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Oh, there are also large churches here that stopped taking any precautions last Fall.  Even if there is a high vaccination rate overall — kids under 12 are still going to be 100% unvaccinated, and many will be going to things with no precautions.  Like church, like sports.  Depending on the church and the sport — but — they are not all going to take precautions here.

I don’t even know about what schools will do!

Anyway — I don’t think it’s realistic to think there won’t be infected kids at school.  I think there will be.  It’s whether the precautions at school will be good enough, I think that is the question for me.  Combined with — what are the new risks to youths from delta.  
 

Right now it seems like it’s pretty bad but maybe a month from now it will not seem so bad?  As far as — do the known precautions work, or it is so much more spreadable

they don’t work as well?

 

Like — here, kids could take their masks off outside, and they ate in shifts sitting 6 feet apart.

 

I don’t know if that is good enough next year, or still fine.

I don’t think it is known yet.

Or maybe it is, and I just don’t know it, lol. 

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Honestly I don’t think your son would contribute to community spread just from attending school.  
 

Edit:  I think if he takes precautions away from school, it seems really unlikely he would contribute to community spread.

Plus, your community is more full of vaccinated adults compared to a school full of kids.  

Edited by Lecka
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We homeschool, so this is on a smaller scale. I have a theater kid who has stayed out of his indoor studio and rehearsals/productions for a year+ now.  We were planning to send him back, but we are re-thinking it now. He is vaccinated, but he and people at home are high risk, especially unvaccinated sister.  Unvaccinated sister won’t be attending indoor classes.

Our county is stalled at 42% fully vaccinated, and everyone behaves normally.  No masks, no distancing.  Rates are rising.

PS is not requiring masks, everything is back to normal, so the studio will follow its lead. Studio is composed of multiple small studios and black box theater rooms.  Tiny halls, lots of sweaty, heavy breathing people.  No thanks. Ditto DD’s classes - all back to normal, no masks, no distancing.

If we lived in a county that was 70 - 80% vaccinated, even 60, my thoughts would be different. But here, the majority of eligible adults are not vaccinated.

If positive rates stop climbing, and all appears stable again, DS will go back to theater mid-year.  For now, we’re fine doing what we are doing.  (We do a lot outside with friends; hang inside with vaccinated friends; he has brief excursions indoors for events, while masked; we have online classes; and plenty of social time within parameters that we feel safe for us.)

It’s an easier decision for those of us who have always homeschooled, and whose kids are happy doing so, I think.  Sorry that you all are facing difficult choices.


 

 

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Mine has graduated (and is old enough to be vaccinated), but the jury is still out on whether the BK's stay remote or go in person. It would be better if they could go in person, both for social reasons and because if they do remote, they will not have someone at home with them a good part of the time, since mom is looking for a full time job currently. They might be able to stay with me a day or two a week, but again, it's dependent on my work schedule. 

 

Last year, it was possible to keep kids home and reevaluate each quarter. Starting in the fall, you either enroll for 100% virtual, all the time, and accept that the only extracurriculars and electives are those offered virtually (which is a big issue for the BK's, who, if they're having to give up the homeschool social extracurriculars, would really benefit from having them at school), or enroll 100% in person-unless schools close again (and the governor has said that won't happen. 

 

My BK's are old enough to be vaccinated, but have not been yet (unfortunately, I can't legally sign for them. Otherwise, I would have taken them the first day 12-15 were eligible!)

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23 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So, of course I worry about my own kids.  My son’s disease had a lot of similarities to MIS-C, and the ideas of dealing with that again with another child is terrifying.  But my motivation is more coming from the community spread issue.

I thought MIS-C was pretty short-term? Am I wrong about that? 

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23 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Honestly I don’t think your son would contribute to community spread just from attending school.  
 

Edit:  I think if he takes precautions away from school, it seems really unlikely he would contribute to community spread.

Plus, your community is more full of vaccinated adults compared to a school full of kids.  

The school is part of the community.  If my kid contributes to spread in the school that is community spread.

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8 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Mine has graduated (and is old enough to be vaccinated), but the jury is still out on whether the BK's stay remote or go in person. It would be better if they could go in person, both for social reasons and because if they do remote, they will not have someone at home with them a good part of the time, since mom is looking for a full time job currently. They might be able to stay with me a day or two a week, but again, it's dependent on my work schedule. 

 

Last year, it was possible to keep kids home and reevaluate each quarter. Starting in the fall, you either enroll for 100% virtual, all the time, and accept that the only extracurriculars and electives are those offered virtually (which is a big issue for the BK's, who, if they're having to give up the homeschool social extracurriculars, would really benefit from having them at school), or enroll 100% in person-unless schools close again (and the governor has said that won't happen. 

 

My BK's are old enough to be vaccinated, but have not been yet (unfortunately, I can't legally sign for them. Otherwise, I would have taken them the first day 12-15 were eligible!)

What are BK's?

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I’m re-considering sending my vaccinated kid.  If Delta is surging when school starts and the schools decide to drop precautions it’s going to be a tough call.  If oldest was still a middle schooler that would make it easier, but he’s going into high school which gives the decision a lot more weight.  
 

I’m glad schools here don’t start until after Labor Day.  It might not matter, but maybe we’ll have a clearer picture by then.

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Bonus kids, I think 🙂 . 

 

Just now, TravelingChris said:

What are BK's?

Bonus kids-they're the kids of a close friend who I was very involved with homeschooling until COVID (or graduation, in the case of the oldest one). They moved to online school last year since it wasn't safe for me to have them come spend several days a week with me, and it just hadn't worked well in the Spring for me to try to homeschool them via ZOOM. 

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3 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

The school is part of the community.  If my kid contributes to spread in the school that is community spread.

Given that anything your child is likely to catch is likely to be caught in school, your child not being in school isn't going to keep those germs away from school.  His incremental impact would be quite small if he behaves properly.

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6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I thought MIS-C was pretty short-term? Am I wrong about that? 

A day in PICU with your kid can feel like it lasts a thousand years (and at the same time feel far too short if you know its one of the lsat ones you have).  Yes, most likely my kid would recover from MIS-C if he got it, but I'd still really rather not experience that again, even for a brief period. 

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11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I thought MIS-C was pretty short-term? Am I wrong about that? 

IDk how long it is in general, but a classmate of my niece had/has it and she was in the hospital for several months.

Edited by forty-two
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3 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

A day in PICU with your kid can feel like it lasts a thousand years (and at the same time feel far too short if you know its one of the lsat ones you have).  Yes, most likely my kid would recover from MIS-C if he got it, but I'd still really rather not experience that again, even for a brief period. 

Got it. I see what you mean.

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Just now, forty-two said:

IDk how long it is in general, but a classmate of my niece had/has it and she was in the hospital for months and months.

Oh geez. How scary. 

I keep wondering what fraction of the MIS-C cases we're missing, I have to say. We know of 4,000 and I wonder if that's right or not. 

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19 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

The school is part of the community.  If my kid contributes to spread in the school that is community spread.

I think that is a fair point.  But if you looked at his school, and the risk of him being there or not, and your family takes precautions outside of school -- I think it's unlikely he would take into school.  

And then within the school, I don't think it's likely he would spread it more than another student, that something about him and his daily schedule would make him be more likely to spread it within school than anyone else.

I think either reasonable precautions will work, and then -- I think the risks are pretty low at school.  Not zero, but pretty low.  

And then if reasonable precautions won't work, then I do think that is different. (Edit -- I mean b/c unknowns with delta)

I also think it's different if there are not reasonable precautions taken at school.  

I think if your question comes down to -- will your child contribute to spread, then at a certain point, it also comes down to how comfortable you are with the difference between "a pretty low number" and "zero."  I totally agree it would be a number higher than zero.  To me, I am hopeful it would still be a really low number.  And, that is okay with me.  But that is not my line, I guess.  

I also do think my kids have greater benefit from being at school this Fall.  It's not a neutral choice for me.  

If it is much more of a neutral choice for you, and it sounds like it is, then I think it makes sense your number might need to be zero.  

Honestly, our "keep them home" experiment last year did not work out very well!  

If it had -- it would definitely change my thought process.  

Edited by Lecka
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6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I keep wondering what fraction of the MIS-C cases we're missing, I have to say. We know of 4,000 and I wonder if that's right or not. 

And are our old numbers still going to be accurate with Delta?  

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Dd14 will go. She will never be vaxd and I’m not going keep her home forever. She is obese so she is high risk but for her mental health she needs to go. She did almost zero school at home. She is special needs and needs one on one or small group teaching. 

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My kids all have been vaccinated now, but last year, they were not, and last year, they went to school in-person, full time. I was so extremely nervous and agitated about that, but they needed to be in the classroom for academic and social reasons (mental health concerns plus IEPs). It worked out better than I expected last year, so I am more comfortable with it this year. I am disappointed that the school is making masks optional, even for students under 12.

Last year, one of my kids was quarantined once for a close exposure to a positive case and had to do virtual lessons for about two weeks. Neither of the other two ever had to quarantine, though they did have kids in their class who were positive (our district sent home a notice to alert parents about positive cases). I was very afraid that our household would be exposed, or that Covid would spread rampantly, or that an elderly teacher would get very ill, but none of that ended up happening.

I'm cognizant of not contributing to community spread, as well. But our family is at a point where we need to allow our kids to interact with others, even when I am uncomfortable with it. When my kids were not vaccinated, I didn't let them do social things outside of school activities, unless they were outside, and we stopped going to church in person and are still cautious about that and haven't returned fully. We've avoided church gatherings as much for the well being of the congregants (many of whom I am sure did not vaccinate), as to limit our own exposure.

I think each person and family should do what they can to limit exposure to the community. Since my kids had to be in school, we limited other interactions.

In your case, I think I would worry the most about the 90 year old. Your desire to protect other children is so understandable and commendable. But I think it should be secondary to what will be best for your own household. And then, being cautious types, you will likely not pose much of a risk to other families, anyway.

This is so hard. I'm sorry.

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1 hour ago, Lecka said:

Oh, there are also large churches here that stopped taking any precautions last Fall.  Even if there is a high vaccination rate overall — kids under 12 are still going to be 100% unvaccinated, and many will be going to things with no precautions.  Like church, like sports.  Depending on the church and the sport — but — they are not all going to take precautions here.

I don’t even know about what schools will do!

Anyway — I don’t think it’s realistic to think there won’t be infected kids at school.  I think there will be.  It’s whether the precautions at school will be good enough, I think that is the question for me.  Combined with — what are the new risks to youths from delta.  
 

Right now it seems like it’s pretty bad but maybe a month from now it will not seem so bad?  As far as — do the known precautions work, or it is so much more spreadable

they don’t work as well?

 

Like — here, kids could take their masks off outside, and they ate in shifts sitting 6 feet apart.

 

I don’t know if that is good enough next year, or still fine.

I don’t think it is known yet.

Or maybe it is, and I just don’t know it, lol. 

Honestly, if the known precautions were still in effect, I'd be a lot less worried.    My concern is around the lack of mask mandates at this point.  

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I would also note that in middle school, some of the kids will be vaccinated too, so that should help.  (What grades is your middle school?  And what grade is your son in?)

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As of right this minute, I am still planning on sending Elliot...but, his situation is quite a bit different than your kids'. Elliot will be in a self-contained 12-1-1 class that will rarely mix with any other students. He will even be bussed with primarily that same group of kids.

All the school districts around here have pledged a full return to normal in the fall with no precautions, so that sucks, but all the adults in our life are vaccinated and none are high risk, so that mitigates the danger.

The other kids' extracurriculars are much more up in the air. The outdoor nature class is a go - they have gone above and beyond finding creative ways to accommodate Covid precautions. My oldest, who is vaccinated, will almost certainly attend comic drawing club in person - it is a small class, and the teacher requires masks any time the kids leave their seats (each of the ~6 kids or sibling groups sits at their own table). My youngest has started taking swim lessons, and so far I have been very impressed with their safety precautions, but unfortunately they have been backing off on them in the last few weeks, and we might have to reconsider in the fall if they continue on this path despite the rising case numbers (and low, stagnant vaccination rate). The biggest question mark is the extracurricular classes the other kids are scheduled to take as part of a shared-time program at a school in a neighboring district. If the district truly opts for no precautions, I might hold off on sending the younger two at least until they are vaccinated.

It will be far from a perfect solution, but I will feel much more comfortable when I can get the rest of the kids vaccinated. We will be first in line when they open up the next age bracket.

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Only one of mine will attend public school. He is vaccinated and will be in jr high; but I *hate* he will potentially be exposing my littles to whatever from school (covid, stomach bugs, etc).  And as delta keeps picking up, I hate this even more. But this son has been home since Spring Break 2020 and that has been way long enough.  His particular needs and such make it very challenging to homeschool him.  I didn't enjoy it the first time and I don't now!  I need to be able to focus on the kids still home, especially my 2nd grader. I'm sure there is a point I would keep him home, but I don't know what that point is right now.  I *really* just need him to go to school.  

Edited by Pamela H in Texas
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I am so glad I don't have to decide this. With only 32 percent vaccination and no masks ( didn't require them for elementary kids at all last year either), I would be stuck.  My kid would be isolated and miss out on all of her social activities while the world around here went on as normal. That just wouldn't be fair. I am not sure what I would do.  I cannot imagine if we had been isolating since March 0f 2020 and I had kids unable to be vaccinated. I think you would have to commit me.  I feel so much for you guys. It was bad enough for the year I had to do it before my vaccination.

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We’ve never considered school, but we’re now officially no-indoor-contact except necessary and masked needs (doctor, etc.) for ds10 until he’s vaccinated. This morning, dh declared he (fully vaccinated) is going back to masking indoors. Considering he is always the more nonchalant of the two of us, I’m easily on the same page. 
It’s more about protecting ds and any other vulnerable people we might come into contact with than ourselves. (Dh also already had COVID.)

 

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On 7/19/2021 at 10:32 AM, Dmmetler said:

My BK's are old enough to be vaccinated, but have not been yet (unfortunately, I can't legally sign for them. Otherwise, I would have taken them the first day 12-15 were eligible!)

Am I remembering correctly that you are in TN? Apparently teens 14+ can get vaccinated in your state without parental permission (your state's top vaccination expert was fired after pointing that out, but it’s still state law for now). 

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On 7/19/2021 at 10:52 AM, Not_a_Number said:

Oh geez. How scary. 

I keep wondering what fraction of the MIS-C cases we're missing, I have to say. We know of 4,000 and I wonder if that's right or not. 

I know of a case where the pathologist ruled it as MIS-C in the death of a young child.  It somehow magically did not get reported. (I know this sounds fantastical, but I swear to you it’s true).  I also very strongly suspect the county I work in as a paramedic was under reporting Covid cases to make the stats look better.  I had a lot more Covid cardiac arrests than would ever show up on the Covid dashboard.  I think they were somehow not reporting the out of hospital deaths. 
 

I am not super cautious, because I believe that we are going to have to learn to live with the threat of covid and need to determine for ourselves what is a reasonable risk based on our individual needs and health for the long term. But neither do I want to downplay how serious it is and can be for some people.

Edited by Mrs Tiggywinkle
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Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I know of a case where the pathologist ruled it as MIS-C in the death of a young child.  It somehow magically did not get reported. (I know this sounds fantastical, but I swear to you it’s true).  I also very strongly suspect the county I work in as a paramedic was under reporting Covid cases to make the stats look better.  I had a lot more Covid cardiac arrests than would ever show up on the Covid dashboard.  I think they were somehow not reporting the out of hospital deaths. 

I am not super cautious, because I believe that we are going to have to learn to live with the threat of covid and need to determine for ourselves what is a reasonable risk based on our individual needs and health.  But neither do I want to downplay how serious it is and can be for some people.

I'm really hoping the kid vaccines come out sooner than they are projecting. When the kids are vaccinated, I'll get less careful. Or if the data suggests that the rate of long-term complications is low. 

I wouldn't be willing to do what we're doing forever, but I definitely have another 6 months in me. 

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4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm really hoping the kid vaccines come out sooner than they are projecting. When the kids are vaccinated, I'll get less careful. Or if the data suggests that the rate of long-term complications is low. 

I wouldn't be willing to do what we're doing forever, but I definitely have another 6 months in me. 

I will feel so much better too.

I did the antibody screen(since my cousin caught a bad case again AND after being partially vaccinated) and it’s negative.  I know that doesn’t mean much for T cells but now I am concerned about my kids being non responders to the vaccine as well.  At this point, I know we can’t lock down forever though.

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14 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I will feel so much better too.

I did the antibody screen(since my cousin caught a bad case again AND after being partially vaccinated) and it’s negative.  I know that doesn’t mean much for T cells but now I am concerned about my kids being non responders to the vaccine as well.  At this point, I know we can’t lock down forever though.

Antibody screen for whom? 

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If any of my four kids were too young to be vaccinated, I'd be homeschooling them all.  My youngest is now 25...so you'd think i have no skin in this game. However---she just signed a one-year contract to teach fifth grade - her first real classroom after over a year being a para then a summer school teacher - and still lives at home.  Waiting to hear what the district decides - assume they will make everyone wear masks, still. Hope so. But doubt they will back down from what they decided at the end of spring semester - starting in fall 2021 only kids with authentic medical cause will be allowed to do remote virtual learning.  Everyone else needs their butt in the classroom seat.  And, based on what my daughter has experienced working with the elementary kids doing remote the past year and a half, most are far behind where they should be, academically, and many of the youngest kids either forgot or never had a chance to learn  classroom behavior.  She has been "domesticating" most of the summer school kids and trying to get them to use pencil and paper without loudly whining about it (these are rising 3rd graders) after a year of mostly screentime and keyboard work, and in too many cases no supervision except from distracted older siblings or tired grandparents at home.

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31 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Antibody screen for whom? 

I got an antibody screen. It’s like $60 at my local urgent care and since I’m on long term steroids for a corneal transplant, I was curious.

We still don’t really know enough to draw conclusion, but my antibody screen was negative.  It was disappointing.

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Thanks everyone,

I feel as though if he was literally any other age, this would be an easier decision.   If he was a year younger, he'd be in the same classroom all day, which seems far safer than a 7 period day, and if he was a year old he'd be vaccinated.  I think he would benefit a lot from school.  He hasn't done anything indoors other than see family and go to medical appointments, but we started allowing him to do outdoor things this spring, both sports and playing with neighbors with masks for everything but swimming, and it's been really good for him.  So, I think that school would be good for him.  On the other hand, we're in a neighborhood with lots of outdoor play, and he's signed up for outdoor sports which we'd probably continue.  I hear @Lecka's concern about travel sports, but outdoor rec and select sports, which don't require hotels and travel, seem way safer to me than school.  

I'll be gone about 6 hours a day with work, which complicates things, but I'd probably pull his brother out too, and we can have an adult working from home here while i'm gone.  So, it's not ideal, but not impossible.  

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