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Relatives dying from Covid is much harder now that the vaccine is available.


Shelydon
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3 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

I had read that Novavax is a protein subunit vax, the same kind of vax used for hepatitis and other diseases since something like the mid-1980s. Is that not right? 

Instead of eggs, it is on worms or something like that. I could see people skeeved out about that.

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1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

In my opinion Group 1 is mostly saying not vaccinating=reckless, black and white. That's not true for me or for other people I know that aren't vaccinated. So I do feel judged. Not everyone that isn't vaccinated is reckless (or stupid or believes in conspiracy theories, etc.)

Well I don't think that people who don't get the COVID vaccine right now but had COVID and have checked that their antibodies are still there are reckless.

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Look I feel the same way about the vaccines as I do about seatbelts.  I just watched the news from last night and there was a state trooper saying 60% of auto deaths in my state were due to no seatbelt use-  that really is very sad and very stupid.

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12 hours ago, whitestavern said:

@Not_a_Number yeah, I feel judged.

I am judging such people. They are making life almost unbearable for healthcare professionals like my husband and causing great pain and suffering of all types for many people. We have a very big problem. We have an excellent solution that the vast majority of people in the US are fortunate enough to be able to use (barring medical conditions) for free.

This whole thing reminds me of many Trump voters on this board and IRL. They don’t want to be judged for voting for Trump or lumped in with certain other Trump supporters or voters. Well there is a simple solution. Don’t vote for Trump. If you don’t want to be judged for not getting a vaccine and your health allows it, then get a vaccine. 

Edited by Frances
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1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

And some of us, in a post vaccine world, still just have cr@p choices. No good solution and no good end game. 
 

I honestly think quality of life all around would be improved if we practiced “eyes on your own paper” a lot more. 

How does this work when this is a public health crisis? It’s the very definition of one’s choices affecting others.

Edited by Frances
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1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

In my opinion Group 1 is mostly saying not vaccinating=reckless, black and white. That's not true for me or for other people I know that aren't vaccinated. So I do feel judged. Not everyone that isn't vaccinated is reckless (or stupid or believes in conspiracy theories, etc.)

I sometimes specifically say "everyone who can get vaccinated and hasn't already had Covid" or something to specify I'm not referring to those with medical contraindications or those who have already had Covid, but that gets long winded and I end up leaving out those caveats in my shorthand. I think almost everybody is referring to those that can get vaccinated when they talk about people causing harm by not getting vaccinated at this point--I don't know anyone who would hold it against someone who has a contraindication (or recent infection) to prevent them from getting vaccinated.

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

And some of us, in a post vaccine world, still just have cr@p choices. No good solution and no good end game.

This is one of the very important reasons for everyone who can get vaccinated to do so. If everyone did, those who can't be protected by vaccine would be protected by everyone else being vaccinated. "Eyes on own paper" doesn't work to protect everyone, and it absolutely certainly doesn't get us out of a pandemic and back to normal life like we could be. It's starting to look increasingly like my younger kids won't be able to return to their classes and activities in the Fall, which I was sure they would be able to since we have good vaccines. But since so many people aren't choosing to take them, that means it looks like we don't get to do that afterall. That's a small thing compared to people being sick and dying, but since we've heard so much about mental health and getting kids back in school and all that this past year, it seems like it would have been worth it to people for that reason at least. For many, apparently not 😔.

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1 minute ago, KSera said:

I sometimes specifically say "everyone who can get vaccinated and hasn't already had Covid" or something to specify I'm not referring to those with medical contraindications or those who have already had Covid, but that gets long winded and I end up leaving out those caveats in my shorthand. I think almost everybody is referring to those that can get vaccinated when they talk about people causing harm by not getting vaccinated at this point--I don't know anyone who would hold it against someone who has a contraindication (or recent infection) to prevent them from getting vaccinated.

This is one of the very important reasons for everyone who can get vaccinated to do so. If everyone did, those who can't be protected by vaccine would be protected by everyone else being vaccinated. "Eyes on own paper" doesn't work to protect everyone, and it absolutely certainly doesn't get us out of a pandemic and back to normal life like we could be. It's starting to look increasingly like my younger kids won't be able to return to their classes and activities in the Fall, which I was sure they would be able to since we have good vaccines. But since so many people aren't choosing to take them, that means it looks like we don't get to do that afterall. That's a small thing compared to people being sick and dying, but since we've heard so much about mental health and getting kids back in school and all that this past year, it seems like it would have been worth it to people for that reason at least. For many, apparently not 😔.

This only works, sadly, if the vaccines prevent transmission which is looking more dubious as time goes on. I do hope there’s still some herd immunity but I no longer feel consistent about it.

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13 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This only works, sadly, if the vaccines prevent transmission which is looking more dubious as time goes on. I do hope there’s still some herd immunity but I no longer feel consistent about it.

It will take time to see, but it looks like while the vaccines prevented transmission of the original strain and alpha extremely well, it looks like they greatly reduce, but don't completely prevent transmission with delta. Now, if enough people had gotten vaccinated before delta took off here, we could have avoided delta being predominant, but even with delta, reducing transmission by as much as they still are still makes a huge difference, If you do a calculation with them even reducing transmission by 10% (and it looks more like 65-90%, depending whose numbers), you will see a tremendous difference due to the exponential doubling rate.  With the current efficacy of the vaccine in reducing transmission, it's still significantly reducing case numbers. However, if the unvaccinated rate stays so low, we are increasing the chances we're going to end up with a variant that the vaccine no longer protects against. That's the other way that "eyes on your own paper" doesn't work in this case.

 

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8 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Look I feel the same way about the vaccines as I do about seatbelts.  I just watched the news from last night and there was a state trooper saying 60% of auto deaths in my state were due to no seatbelt use-  that really is very sad and very stupid.

Yup. It's ridiculous. Same with people on motorcycles with no helmets. 

 

8 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This only works, sadly, if the vaccines prevent transmission which is looking more dubious as time goes on. I do hope there’s still some herd immunity but I no longer feel consistent about it.

It's not as good news now, but it is still preventing a good chunk of transmission. I think the mRNA vaccines wost case numbers I've seen are around 60% effective at preventing infection at all. So then that's 40% that may still get infected, but tha's WAY better, and if you figure (hope) that those 40% end up with a lower viral load - which seems reasonable at least in some- that means even they may be less likely to transmit it. But cutting transmission even 60% would be game changing if everyone who could get vaccinated did. It would mean that a lot of the time the virus would infect one person then just fade out rather than transmitting all over the dang place. And those numbers are for Delta - it's much more effective than that on other variants. 

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8 hours ago, Frances said:

I am judging such people. They are making life almost unbearable for healthcare professionals like my husband and causing great pain and suffering of all types for many people. We have a very big problem. We have an excellent solution that the vast majority of people in the US are fortunate enough to be able to use (barring medical conditions) for free.

This whole thing reminds me of many Trump voters on this board and IRL. They don’t want to be judged for voting for Trump or lumped in with some other Trump supporters or voters. Well there is a simple solution. Don’t vote for Trump. If you don’t want to be judged for not getting a vaccine and your health allows it, then get a vaccine. 

I didn't say I don't want to be judged. I was asked why I felt judged, and I answered. 

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25 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

I didn't say I don't want to be judged. I was asked why I felt judged, and I answered. 

Fair. 

I mean, at some point we all judge others in some way or another. Doesn't mean we hate them but I think we all have feelings on the choices others make if/when they impact us. 

Now I know there are some people who could be vaccinated, choose not to, and because they are not are staying home pretty much always, masking when they can't. I'd prefer they vaccinate, in case they end up hospitalized for other reasons, etc..but I'm not thinking oh, how selfish. 

And yeah, I'm frustrated by people having big parties who are not vaccinated, but someone going to work, and masking while there, before vaccines were an option? That's not careless. Going to work is not the same as going to a bar (unless you are the bar tender in which case, gotta put food on the table). 

I think everyone here is reserving their anger or frustration for those who refuse to take precautions in general. Won't mask or vaccinate or limit time in public spaces, etc even though they could. 

 

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If someone is not vaccinated for whatever reason then they need to follow the sound medical guidelines to mask indoors and to properly social distance. If you do that I don’t judge you. But I don’t want to hear whining. (And trust me, if the reason you aren’t vaxed is because it is medically contradicted I understand because I have btdt but it doesn’t absolve you from the responsibility to mask up and socially distance.). 

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I hate to be a utilitarian about this, but the harm felt by those who have lost loved ones or who are suffering now or who cannot get the vaccine because they're immunocompromised by hearing the "everyone needs to do more" message and feeling that people are assigning blame to them when it doesn't belong there (and in those groups, it absolutely does not and is not meant for them)... is just nothing compared to the thousands who are dying. Cases have jumped more than 70%. Yes, some people who are vaccinated are getting it because the vaccine isn't perfect. But the vast majority of those people are unvaccinated. 

Risk management is tricky. It's unrealistic to do the level of isolating that many of us did for months at the start of this. Instead, we are all taking risks. We all need to be tolerant of each other's different approach to risks. But also, not getting the vaccine if it's safe for you to have it is not a risk we should tolerate. We need to be closing the doors to people who refuse - schools, colleges, workplaces, etc. should all start doing this more. I don't see it changing any other way.

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10 hours ago, Frances said:

I am judging such people. They are making life almost unbearable for healthcare professionals like my husband and causing great pain and suffering of all types for many people. We have a very big problem. We have an excellent solution that the vast majority of people in the US are fortunate enough to be able to use (barring medical conditions) for free.

Many of the same people put the healthcare workers on some kind of unrealistic pedestal while "living their life." It's bizarre. And then they don't listen to them when they tell them about vaccines (they find a healthcare worker that is opposed instead). And no one wants to know what kind of uncertainty or inconvenience healthcare workers (and their families) have been through. One reason we stayed home as much as we did is that we didn't want to spread Covid to DH's patients anymore than we wanted him to get Covid from them. Our optometrist was the same way, and she got it from a patient anyway. Sometimes even other healthcare workers put my DH at risk. Job loss has been a real thing for many healthcare workers, and many had greatly reduced hours (we had both in household even though my DH is a frontline worker). 

It's just crazy. 

I think other threads have discussed the idea of moral injury (maybe TCB brought it up), and I think that's apt. 

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17 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I hate to be a utilitarian about this, but the harm felt by those who have lost loved ones or who are suffering now or who cannot get the vaccine because they're immunocompromised by hearing the "everyone needs to do more" message and feeling that people are assigning blame to them when it doesn't belong there (and in those groups, it absolutely does not and is not meant for them)... is just nothing compared to the thousands who are dying. Cases have jumped more than 70%. Yes, some people who are vaccinated are getting it because the vaccine isn't perfect. But the vast majority of those people are unvaccinated. 

Risk management is tricky. It's unrealistic to do the level of isolating that many of us did for months at the start of this. Instead, we are all taking risks. We all need to be tolerant of each other's different approach to risks. But also, not getting the vaccine if it's safe for you to have it is not a risk we should tolerate. We need to be closing the doors to people who refuse - schools, colleges, workplaces, etc. should all start doing this more. I don't see it changing any other way.

Honestly, my frustration and outright anger is mostly directed to those who are in positions of leadership and are actively blocking things that keep everyone safe. I am angry at the local school district, who is saying that they will not mandate masks even for K-4 and K-5 elementary schools, where the kids can't possibly be vaccinated yet, since Delta seems to hit kids harder than the earlier versions. For middle schools and high schools, yes, I could see making it optional since all of those parents have the option to get their child vaccinated, but not for the little ones. The schools in my district went through all last year in person with masks. It boggles my mind that they feel that it is safe to drop them right now since kids seem to be more affected by Delta, and it's not a case of "choosing not to be vaccinated".  

 

But parents who choose not to make their sweaty 6 yr old who has been running around a park stick on a mask when running into Target to pick up a few things don't really bother me as much, especially if they are also trying to keep some distancing between their family and other groups. Because, honestly, when I'm hot and sweaty, masks that don't bother me at all normally feel like they're stifling me, and I'm a lot older and a lot better able to push through discomfort than a little kid is. 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

But parents who choose not to make their sweaty 6 yr old who has been running around a park stick on a mask when running into Target to pick up a few things don't really bother me as much, especially if they are also trying to keep some distancing between their family and other groups. Because, honestly, when I'm hot and sweaty, masks that don't bother me at all normally feel like they're stifling me, and I'm a lot older and a lot better able to push through discomfort than a little kid is. 

To me, this is an example of how we all need to give each other grace. I mean, outdoor transmission is incredibly low. If you choose not to mask outdoors or if you're vaccinated or to go to some types of gatherings and not others... Those are all calls we have to make that I think are about our various levels of risk management. Some people are taking fewer risks, others more. But when you're refusing to get vaccinated when you can and you're refusing to take any precautions at all... I have very little grace left.

I do think the government needs to mandate more. Either reintroduce the mask mandates or start making the vaccine mandatory for more and more things. I'll take either one, but we have to do one or the other.

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4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

To me, this is an example of how we all need to give each other grace. I mean, outdoor transmission is incredibly low. If you choose not to mask outdoors or if you're vaccinated or to go to some types of gatherings and not others... Those are all calls we have to make that I think are about our various levels of risk management. Some people are taking fewer risks, others more. But when you're refusing to get vaccinated when you can and you're refusing to take any precautions at all... I have very little grace left.

I do think the government needs to mandate more. Either reintroduce the mask mandates or start making the vaccine mandatory for more and more things. I'll take either one, but we have to do one or the other.

I saw a report much earlier where a runner in high school collapsed when they were requiring runners to run with masks.  Now that was ridiculous.  She had been running for years and never collapsed before and hasn't since the school district took away the awful rule to mask while doing strenuous exercise.  

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I've thought about the idea of "blame" and "judgment" frequently during the past year and a half. 

I think some of the weirdness here is that we live in a very individualistic culture (I mean the USA - I can't speak for where I've not lived). We don't seem to understand the concept that what we do affects other people.  

For the past year and a half, decisions about vaccines and masks always went the same way in my world. "You should wear a mask to protect others." "I'm not afraid of the virus." These two people are talking past each other. 

I'm fascinated why so many of the people I know could not understand that we live in a community. I've speculated that this is the result of a very individualized faith. I need to get myself to heaven which will be based on my actions. 

I've also thought about the idea of "fear." Why is it so important that we not fear? Fear is a basic human emotion and emotions are not good or bad. Fear is what keeps us safe because it makes us react to danger. 

I know that I'm bitter for being told that I was not a good Christian because i was afraid of COVID. 

When the pandemic began, I was told by a priest that I was "judgmental" for saying that I did not think that church would take adequate COVID precautions. I was right because they didn't take COVID precautions and they spread COVID around to each other. 

That accusation made me think a lot about the idea of judgment and forgiveness and I've come to understand that we have a very superficial understanding of this. We leave out justice. I've been told so many times that as a Christian that I must forgive but I don't recall hearing much about justice being just as important. 

Rachael Denhollander helped to understand this idea. 

 

I think this tension is what we're seeing now. It is unjust that people are spreading misinformation about the COVID vaccine. If someone chooses not to get vaccinated and takes no precautions and spreads it to someone else we can't immediately forgive that person unless there is also justice. 

We're angry when we see people suffer due to bad decisions (either their own or others) because we know that it's unjust. 

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I'm coming to embrace a theology based on the idea that everything should be judged based on how it affects the most vulnerable. 

What is moral is the action that protects the vulnerable. An action that endangers the vulnerable is immoral. 

This is like what the Catholic call the "preferential option for the poor." 

Quote

This notion of a preferential option for the poor involves a self-conscious move from a passive understanding that the work of Christians is to provide charity to the poor to an active position that demands justice for the poor. The latter stance raises questions regarding the causes of injustice, which are often linked to what Pope John Paul II called the social structures of sin. The preferential option demands solidarity with the poor, defined not as some "feeling of vague compassion" but "a firm and persevering determination to commit oneself to the common good" [7]. What do such responsibilities encompass? The Jesuit theologian Thomas Massaro puts it succinctly, "The entire tradition of Catholic social teaching…can be interpreted as a unified effort on the part of church leaders to encourage a more humane society where the most vulnerable members are better protected from harm" [8].

Roman Catholic Ethics and the Preferential Option for the Poor

Oh if only this idea was manifest in the American Catholic community! Maybe we'd actually attend Mass. 

We should demand justice for the most vulnerable. Today that is the people in the world who do not have access to the COVID vaccines and to the people in our country who are not able to be vaccinated. 

We Americans have hoarded this vaccine and yet so many of us aren't even getting it so doses are going to waste. This is extremely immoral. 

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Another thing is that before the vaccine, there was very little that an individual could do to protect themselves. Social distancing and masking provided some protection but it was always small. 

When we ask what else someone could have done we think of it in an individual way. This is because we live in an very individualistic society. The question, "what else could we have done?" is almost always interpreted as asking what an individual person could have done. Instead of what society could have done. I think the latter is what most of us mean when we ask that question. This is very much like discussions about climate change, e.g. don't look at Exxon, are you recycling? 

An individual in the USA could do very little before the vaccine to protect themselves. But society could definitely have done more. 

That may sound trivial but it's actually very important because our government actions (or rather in-actions) were based on the assumption that no could do anything. 

The vaccine provides a way for individuals to protect themselves, very important in a society that lacks an understanding of the "common good." 

I've written elsewhere that we're sending our 11.5 YO daughter back to school in August. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect that my unvaccinated DD would be protected by the adults being vaccinated. It's like how I enroll her in this school with the assumption that there isn't a convicted child molester on staff. Or that they have a fire drills and smoke detectors. 

But unfortunately I know that I can't rely on that. Those parents and teachers who aren't vaccinated have decided, subconsciously I'm sure, that protecting my daughter (and the other children) is less important than other things. 

Their decisions are destroying the community even though it looks like it's still intact. A community isn't a real community if everyone does whatever they want with no regard for others in the community. 

 

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15 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

And some of us, in a post vaccine world, still just have cr@p choices. No good solution and no good end game. 
 

 

Yes. People with autoimmune disorders, cancer, and other lifelong diseases are really suffering. The vaccine is not nearly as effective or contraindicated and they are really stuck. 

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1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm coming to embrace a theology based on the idea that everything should be judged based on how it affects the most vulnerable. 

What is moral is the action that protects the vulnerable. An action that endangers the vulnerable is immoral. 

This is like what the Catholic call the "preferential option for the poor." 

Roman Catholic Ethics and the Preferential Option for the Poor

Oh if only this idea was manifest in the American Catholic community! Maybe we'd actually attend Mass. 

We should demand justice for the most vulnerable. Today that is the people in the world who do not have access to the COVID vaccines and to the people in our country who are not able to be vaccinated. 

We Americans have hoarded this vaccine and yet so many of us aren't even getting it so doses are going to waste. This is extremely immoral. 

Very interesting, haven't seen this before

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I actually disagree with this. For lots of people, social distancing and masking were very effective. 

I haven't followed the data as closely as you have. 

I think we have to define social distancing and what we mean by a mask. Most of the people I know wore cloth or paper masks. 

Social distancing is hard unless it's enforced. I watched people start to edge closer to each other as they began talking. It was impossible to enforce at DD's coop last year. 

If social distancing means staying away from other people, then I agree that's very effective. 

WRT masking - do they protect us or other people? Everyone seemed to agree that it was protecting others when this was big issue last year. Did it do much to protect us? 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I haven't followed the data as closely as you have. 

I think we have to define social distancing and what we mean by a mask. Most of the people I know wore cloth or paper masks. 

Social distancing is hard unless it's enforced. I watched people start to edge closer to each other as they began talking. It was impossible to enforce at DD's coop last year. 

If social distancing means staying away from other people, then I agree that's very effective. 

Yes, that's what we did. We had an almost entirely closed pod. It worked. 

 

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

WRT masking - do they protect us or other people? Everyone seemed to agree that it was protecting others when this was big issue last year. Did it do much to protect us? 

I think the data on this is sketchy and it's honestly hard to measure. My personal sense is that they cut risks to ourselves, especially when worn right. But I don't have a study to back that up and I could be wrong. 

The fact that they cut risks to others is definitely better documented. 

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40 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Social distancing and masking provided some protection but it was always small.

I disagree. Social distancing and masking have been extremely effective. At my university we have been in person during fall and spring, and the Covid numbers were much smaller than in the community, despite the fact that college students live in dorms - because we had a mask and distancing requirement on campus! No cases have originated during classes (masked, 6 ft between seats); all of the few infections stemmed from social activities where masking/distancing was not enforced.

Edited by regentrude
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19 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

 

What I am very furious about is anti-vacc health care workers=  they should not exist.

^^^This^^^ I don't get it. At all. My daughter in law is a nurse and works in a hospital. She works with several nurses who are anti-vax. It doesn't make sense that people in the health care field should ignore the science and fall into the anti-vax trap.

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2 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

^^^This^^^ I don't get it. At all. My daughter in law is a nurse and works in a hospital. She works with several nurses who are anti-vax. It doesn't make sense that people in the health care field should ignore the science and fall into the anti-vax trap.

There are way too many anti-vax nurses. I wonder if there's a difference between BSNs and RNs? 

One thing I've noticed is that anti-vax people often claim that their physicians support their choices but I've never known a single anti-vax physician. I'm sure there are some anti-vax doctors but they are a tiny minority. 

I'm hearing the same thing about COVID. People claim that their doctor is fine with their choice not to vaccinate. People also claim that their doctor isn't vaccinated. But every physician that I know got vaccinated for COVID as soon as it was possible. And every doctor I know advises their patients to get vaccinated. 

Quote

The American Medical Association (AMA) today released a new survey (PDF) among practicing physicians that shows more than 96 percent of surveyed U.S. physicians have been fully vaccinated for COVID-19, with no significant difference in vaccination rates across regions. Of the physicians who are not yet vaccinated, an additional 45 percent do plan to get vaccinated.

AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19

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10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

There are way too many anti-vax nurses. I wonder if there's a difference between BSNs and RNs? 

One thing I've noticed is that anti-vax people often claim that their physicians support their choices but I've never known a single anti-vax physician. I'm sure there are some anti-vax doctors but they are a tiny minority. 

I'm hearing the same thing about COVID. People claim that their doctor is fine with their choice not to vaccinate. People also claim that their doctor isn't vaccinated. But every physician that I know got vaccinated for COVID as soon as it was possible. And every doctor I know advises their patients to get vaccinated. 

AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19

The anti vax doctors I see referenced are usually not allopathic MDs. They are people like that vet that they somehow feel is an expert on human viruses. Or chiropractors. (I love my chiropractor but he’s not licensed or qualified to treat Covid 19.). 

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24 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

One thing I've noticed is that anti-vax people often claim that their physicians support their choices but I've never known a single anti-vax physician. I'm sure there are some anti-vax doctors but they are a tiny minority. 

I'm hearing the same thing about COVID. People claim that their doctor is fine with their choice not to vaccinate. People also claim that their doctor isn't vaccinated. But every physician that I know got vaccinated for COVID as soon as it was possible. And every doctor I know advises their patients to get vaccinated. 

Not in rural Missouri. 

ETA: The article you linked has a misleading title. It should correctly say 96% of the surveyed physicians are vaccinated. The sample size of the survey was 301. That is in no way representative for "all" physicians.

Edited by regentrude
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On 7/16/2021 at 10:50 PM, PeterPan said:

Novamax is on the horizon, and I think the different technology could make a difference in people being willing to take it. 

This actually kind of makes me mad because here in the US, we HAVE enough vaccines for everyone to go today and sign up for their shot. African countries have 1% population vaccinated, and we have excess, but the US is going to roll out Novavax in the US because people want options. It just seems wrong to me. 

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13 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Not in rural Missouri. 

ETA: The article you linked has a misleading title. It should correctly say 96% of the surveyed physicians are vaccinated. The sample size of the survey was 301. That is in no way representative for "all" physicians.

Are doctors in rural Missouri not advising people to get vaccinated? Are they are not vaccinated? 

My brother is a physician in rural Oklahoma. He's vaccinated and he says his colleagues are also vaccinated. 

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7 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Are doctors in rural Missouri not advising people to get vaccinated? Are they are not vaccinated? 

My friend's doctor in the small town north of here actively counsels patients against getting vaccinated. (I think he should lose his license). I bet he's not vaccinated either.

The vax rate in rural MO is below 30%. 

ETA: Here's an interesting comparison between vax rates in rural MO and rural areas of OK and KS

https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article252785948.html

Edited by regentrude
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1 minute ago, regentrude said:

My friend's doctor in the small town north of here actively counsels patients against getting vaccinated. (I think he should lose his license). I bet he's not vaccinated either.

The vax rate in rural MO is below 30%. 

 

Wow! Is he a DO or MD? I work in healthcare finance so have worked with many doctors. I've observed that DOs who do DO residencies are more likely to be into woo than MDs or DOs who do MD residencies. 

I agree that any doctor advising patients to not be vaccinated should lose his license. I wonder if he might be liable for medical malpractice if a patient died of COVID? 

 

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17 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Putting my comment in a separate post because it is important:
this study is bad statistics: they surveyed only 301 doctors. This is completely meaningless.

The number is totally irrelevant. 301 is plenty if it's randomized. Was it? 

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6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The number is totally irrelevant. 301 is plenty if it's randomized. Was it? 

They state "WebMD programmed and fielded the 5–7 minute survey through their physician panel". That does not sound random to me.

Edited by regentrude
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1 minute ago, regentrude said:

They state "WebMD programmed and fielded the 5–7 minute survey through their physician panel". That does not sound random to me, since I doubt the WebMD physician panel is a random sample of all practicing physicians in the US.

Yeah, I saw that and had no clue what that meant. I'd really need to know about this. 

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I saw that and had no clue what that meant. I'd really need to know about this. 

also, I don't for a moment believe that all non-vax doctors will actually be truthful answering the question. Knowing that, in the medical profession, anti-vax is viewed critically, I don't trust them to be honest. Yes, my opinion of humankind is very cynical, and Covid has done much to lower it tremendously.

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In my state, dentists (94%) and doctors (87%) have the highest vaccination rates and chiropractors (50%) and their assistants (45%) the lowest. There is little difference between MDs and DOs. Many frontline workers such as EMTs and CNAs have rates lower than the general public. It’s my understanding that the data came from licensing boards, but I don’t know whether it was a survey or is comprehensive. State law currently forbids healthcare employers from requiring the vaccine as a condition of employment, although many healthcare systems would like to change it.

https://www.registerguard.com/story/news/2021/07/18/oregon-health-care-providers-remain-unvaccinated-new-data-show/7995954002/

Edited by Frances
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5 minutes ago, Frances said:

In my state, dentists (94%) and doctors (87%) have the highest vaccination rates and chiropractors (50%) and their assistants (45%) the lowest. There is little difference between MDs and DOs. Many frontline workers such as EMTs and CNAs have rates lower than the general public. It’s my understanding that the data came from licensing boards, but I don’t know whether it was a survey or is comprehensive. State law currently forbids healthcare employers from requiring the vaccine as part of employment, although many healthcare systems would like to change it.

https://www.registerguard.com/story/news/2021/07/18/oregon-health-care-providers-remain-unvaccinated-new-data-show/7995954002/

The law in Oregon pre-dates COVID, correct? IIRC Oregon had lower vaccination rates than other states and there's always been a strong anti-vax movement in Oregon. 

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5 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The law in Oregon pre-dates COVID, correct? IIRC Oregon had lower vaccination rates than other states and there's always been a strong anti-vax movement in Oregon. 

Yes, all of that is true. We have reached a 70% vaccination rate in the state, although my county is significantly lower, although not as low as some of the very rural counties. 

The state medical licensing board has disciplined some doctors during the pandemic for things such as refusing to wear masks while seeing patients.

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10 minutes ago, Frances said:

State law currently forbids healthcare employers from requiring the vaccine as part of employment

Same here. And what is infuriating is that patients are not entitled to know whether their health care provider is vaccinated.

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Here, both the border workers and people in the Defence Force will be *fired* if they are not vaccinated. In these jobs, if workers are not vaccinated, they you don't have the skills to do the job because one of the skills is that you don't transmit covid from the border to the community. 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/441728/more-border-workers-could-lose-jobs-for-not-getting-vaccinated

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-defence-force-service-members-told-to-get-vaccinated-or-face-being-fired/D35WGCFPGWITEIFLLV6DYDDPZQ/

Edited by lewelma
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I’m obviously pro-shot, but I personally know an unvaxxed doc, who had Covid in January.  She is allopathic, an MD.  Also a DO as of a few years ago (I knew her before and after she got her DO, we’ve known each other almost 20 years). She lives in a high vaccination rate county.  I don’t know if she recommends vaccines to all patients or not, but definitely does not recommend them to some of her patients. She sees a lot of autoimmune issues, and chronic infections.  Ditto flu shots - she recommends flu shots to two people I know, but not for another two people I know.  It’s very individual, and I imagine her approach to Covid vaccines for patients is the same.  

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14 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Same here. And what is infuriating is that patients are not entitled to know whether their health care provider is vaccinated.

Yes, I would like to take unvaccinated DD in for a dental cleaning, but we are fairly certain our family dentist is not vaccinated.  I can hardly call around and ask different practices if they are all vaccinated, but it would definitely be a selling point.

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1 minute ago, Spryte said:

Yes, I would like to take unvaccinated DD in for a dental cleaning, but we are fairly certain our family dentist is not vaccinated.  I can hardly call around and ask different practices if they are all vaccinated, but it would definitely be a selling point.

I would totally call. There is no law that you are not allowed to ask... maybe they'll surprise you and are forthcoming with the answer.
My dental practice is extremely careful with their policies (phone check-in from parking lot, questionnaire, temp check, mask required hand sanitizing), I am pretty sure they're all vaxxed. The staff who have been working on me were volunteering their vax status.

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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

My friend's doctor in the small town north of here actively counsels patients against getting vaccinated. (I think he should lose his license). I bet he's not vaccinated either.

That's sad. Our vaccination rates are just over 40% here, and all the docs I know are promoting vaccination. DH works in healthcare, and the providers were all basically just scheduled for their vaccines. While some may have opted out, if they did, they've been super quiet about it. Nurses are another story...

Ironically, some of the providers were more casual about their PPE in the fall, and Covid ran through the department. There were complaints to OSHA as well. It makes no sense to me knowing how proactive they are, but you can't always account for the weird things people will do. Thankfully, this was before DH started working there as he changed jobs mid-pandemic.

His previous employer was super, super strict, and I can only assume they had a high vaccination rate when the vaccine came out. Not sure if the nurses (different employer) were very compliant though. 

We live in an area with a lot of DOs. 

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

also, I don't for a moment believe that all non-vax doctors will actually be truthful answering the question. Knowing that, in the medical profession, anti-vax is viewed critically, I don't trust them to be honest. Yes, my opinion of humankind is very cynical, and Covid has done much to lower it tremendously.

Honest to each other or to patients? In an area with a lot of vaccine distrust, I wouldn't expect them to lie to patients. Maybe to other clinicians? Interesting thought.

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