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Relatives dying from Covid is much harder now that the vaccine is available.


Shelydon
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I had several relatives and friends die from Covid in 2020 and early 2021.  A relative is in ICU on a vent and is not expected to survive the weekend. For some reason knowing she didn't have to get sick if she had chosen to get the vaccine makes this process much harder. 

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I think it just seems more senseless. I have a group of relatives that steadfastly refuses to vaccinate believing that Covid is primarily political and really isn't that bad. 🤷‍♀️ This (very nice, sweet lady) relative is in that group.  

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It is so sad.

I see the bad reports of people who think they don't have to believe medications and vaccines.  I have been seeing it for many years.  People who think that they can cure their major chronic illness just with prayers, or foods or some scam.  And so many end up so much worse off because they believed the medications aren't needed. Or in your case, vaccinations aren't needed.

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3 hours ago, Shelydon said:

I think it just seems more senseless. I have a group of relatives that steadfastly refuses to vaccinate believing that Covid is primarily political and really isn't that bad. 🤷‍♀️ This (very nice, sweet lady) relative is in that group.  

I’m so sorry. Are the rest of the group changing their minds as a result of this?

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9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Novamax is on the horizon, and I think the different technology could make a difference in people being willing to take it. 

That would be wonderful!

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11 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Novamax is on the horizon, and I think the different technology could make a difference in people being willing to take it. 

What is the reasoning for this vaccine technology being less objectionable? Just curious. When I read about subunit vaccines, they talk about adjuvants and about existing vaccines that people already object to if they are going to object to vaccines. 

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/vaccine-types

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I'm very dubious that people who refused any of the options so far will take the Novamax. Like, maybe a tiny handful, but not a significant percentage.

I also find it hard. And I find it especially hard that so many people I know who are usually compassionate and kind are reaching a breaking point where they don't care and think the people who refuse to get vaccinated deserve what they get. There's a part of me that feels that way too, but the suffering is so big. I don't want to feel that way. They've been misled by conspiracy theories and hatred.

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5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I'm very dubious that people who refused any of the options so far will take the Novamax. Like, maybe a tiny handful, but not a significant percentage.

I also find it hard. And I find it especially hard that so many people I know who are usually compassionate anfd kind are reaching a breaking point where they don't care and think the people who refuse to get vaccinated deserve what they get. There's a part of me that feels that way too, but the suffering is so big. I don't want to feel that way. They've been misled by conspiracy theories and hatred.

Many of the people who made this last year miserable in countless ways used to be friends or at least what we thought were trustworthy acquaintances. 

If they want to continue on with life without getting a vaccine, so be it, but at some point, I don't have to care anymore. That's an emotional boundary that makes this more bearable. They did NOT care about themselves, each other, or us up to this point. It's not our job to keep caring for everyone. Do I mask in public with the rise in variants? Yes. I still don't want to get this or accidentally spread it, but I am not obligated to shoulder the burden of caring for people who don't care about themselves. It's healthy, to some extent, to step away. I am going to be further inconvenienced until this is all over because we are cautious. We made major sacrifices this year, and the vaccine will allow us to make slightly less major sacrifices this year, but we will still be inconvenienced while being pitied for our so-called ignorance. 

The people around me willingly fed at the trough of lies. They bathed in it gleefully. Some are Q adjacent and don't know it, but many, many of the most influential repudiate Q while agitating for ivermectin, HCQ, no masks, "it's just the flu," "shots are a rehearsal for one-world government and the anti-Christ, etc." They specifically rallied people to limit the governor's power not only in this pandemic but for all future emergency situations--our state is pretty impaired to deal with any emergency going forward now. Even some of the less outspoken ones viewed and discussed our state's lottery to reward vaccine recipients like it was something out of the Hunger Games. 

They believe they are the only ones that do care, and they think that I am deceived (and speak to me like I am an ignorant child with all kinds of "Jesus loves you and I still do/we can agree to disagree" talk). 

It's sometimes necessary to detach and not care anymore. It's not the same as thinking they deserve what they get. I have to fight wanting people I know who get it through flouting all the evidence not being at least temporarily miserable, and I have to work through major cognitive dissonance when people seemingly just walk away from Covid without a scratch while knowing that it just reinforces their willfully wrong POV that it's no big deal. Detaching helps. 

 

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1 hour ago, Farrar said:

 And I find it especially hard that so many people I know who are usually compassionate and kind are reaching a breaking point where they don't care and think the people who refuse to get vaccinated deserve what they get. There's a part of me that feels that way too, but the suffering is so big. I don't want to feel that way. They've been misled by conspiracy theories and hatred.

Unfortunately, experiencing severe illness and death of persons close to them will be the only thing that will get many people to take Covid seriously. Seeing it across the globe and country in the news didn't make it seem real. It has to be their immediate community and family.

In some sense, that's our only hope for this pandemic to end: it will have to get much worse first. Until the Covid deniers have a rude awakening. Sadly, by that time they will have caused the deaths of many folks who did everything imaginable to keep safe .

Edited by regentrude
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19 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Unfortunately, experiencing severe illness and death of persons close to them will be the only thing that will get many people to take Covid seriously. Seeing it across the globe and country in the news didn't make it seem real. It has to be their immediate community and family.

In some sense, that's our only hope for this pandemic to end: it will have to get much worse first. Until the Covid deniers have a rude awakening. Sadly, by that time they will have caused the deaths of many folks who did everything imaginable to keep safe .

Even then, I don't think it will help with some religious groups. My personal (former) circle will say a lot about the person being better off because they are in heaven with Jesus and would not want to be back on earth. It's maddening. 

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41 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Unfortunately, experiencing severe illness and death of persons close to them will be the only thing that will get many people to take Covid seriously. Seeing it across the globe and country in the news didn't make it seem real. It has to be their immediate community and family.

In some sense, that's our only hope for this pandemic to end: it will have to get much worse first. Until the Covid deniers have a rude awakening. Sadly, by that time they will have caused the deaths of many folks who did everything imaginable to keep safe .

I’ve been thinking about this and wondering if it will even make a difference. I think a big part of why it won’t make a big enough difference is because if only 1 to 2% of those who contracted it die of it, that leaves like 98% of people to still carry-on and say they got it and it was fine. Maybe 90% would be more fair, as 10% or so are likely to have a severe case that’s enough to make them really regret not having protected themself. And then there’s the phenomenon of people who have lost family members, but have an attitude like @kbuttondescribes where they either say their family member is better off, or there’s nothing they could’ve done anyway, or they rationalize it in some other way, which I can’t really blame them for, because it would be incredibly difficult to have that happen and think that there actually was a way you could’ve prevented it. On the other hand, daily at this point you can find people going on the news to spread the word that they made a mistake by refusing the vaccine, and they or their family member paid dearly for it, and urging people to go get vaccinated. It takes a lot of humility to do that, though.

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2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’ve been thinking about this and wondering if it will even make a difference. I think a big part of why it won’t make a big enough difference is because if only 1 to 2% of those who contracted it die of it, that leaves like 98% of people to still carry-on and say they got it and it was fine. Maybe 90% would be more fair, as 10% or so are likely to have a severe case that’s enough to make them really regret not having protected themself. And then there’s the phenomenon of people who have lost family members, but have an attitude like @kbuttondescribes where they either say their family member is better off, or there’s nothing they could’ve done anyway, or they rationalize it in some other way, which I can’t really blame them for, because it would be incredibly difficult to have that happen and think that there actually was a way you could’ve prevented it. On the other hand, daily at this point you can find people going on the news to spread the word that they made a mistake by refusing the vaccine, and they or their family member paid dearly for it, and urging people to go get vaccinated. It takes a lot of humility to do that, though.

I do think there can be a threshold effect, where it looks like nothing can convince someone and then suddenly there's one last straw. So if things get bad again, I can see that happening with at least some people. 

But the whole thing is just so frustrating and pointless 😕 . I share everyone else's frustration. 

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1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Even then, I don't think it will help with some religious groups. My personal (former) circle will say a lot about the person being better off because they are in heaven with Jesus and would not want to be back on earth. It's maddening. 

Thank you for acknowledging this.

The other strain of this is, “Nothing could have prevented this (!) so I am so glad we have been going out and living our (unmasked) lives!”

The denial is fierce because it is protective to their minds. They literally can’t acknowledge to themselves that they could have done more.

It’s like 1984: 2+2 = 5 They came to believe it themselves.

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2 hours ago, Farrar said:

I'm very dubious that people who refused any of the options so far will take the Novamax. Like, maybe a tiny handful, but not a significant percentage.

I also find it hard. And I find it especially hard that so many people I know who are usually compassionate and kind are reaching a breaking point where they don't care and think the people who refuse to get vaccinated deserve what they get. There's a part of me that feels that way too, but the suffering is so big. I don't want to feel that way. They've been misled by conspiracy theories and hatred.

I too struggle with this dilemma. Because of course I don’t want anyone to suffer and many of these people are being manipulated and used by others who are benefiting financially or politically, but those who refused to vaccinate and now are very sick are causing much other suffering on those they infect and the strain placed on healthcare professionals and systems. And that’s not even getting into all of the economic, social, etc. effects of the pandemic.

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18 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Thank you for acknowledging this.

The other strain of this is, “Nothing could have prevented this (!) so I am so glad we have been going out and living our (unmasked) lives!”

The denial is fierce because it is protective to their minds. They literally can’t acknowledge to themselves that they could have done more.

It’s like 1984: 2+2 = 5 They came to believe it themselves.

I am sinful enough that I can't wait for these people to solicit my support for pro-life causes, and I will tell them how much I don't believe they are pro-life any longer. These are people that also believe that babies go to heaven when they are aborted, and they would NEVER apply their Covid rationalization to the issue of abortion. In fact, one of the local pregnancy center directors has been instrumental in spreading LIES on her personal FB page that I've seen people embrace and share. She's also a state legislator who was instrumental in drumming up support to strip the state's and the governor's emergency powers. 

Being pro-life is about so much more than abortion. I am happy to support pro-life causes that involve meaningful support for moms wanting to avoid an abortion, but I will have to rethink partnering with people who behaved in a totally non pro-life way for more than a year (and counting). 

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33 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Thank you for acknowledging this.

The other strain of this is, “Nothing could have prevented this (!) so I am so glad we have been going out and living our (unmasked) lives!”

The denial is fierce because it is protective to their minds. They literally can’t acknowledge to themselves that they could have done more.

It’s like 1984: 2+2 = 5 They came to believe it themselves.

We see this on this board. . .    but really what can you say?  Tragedy is tragedy.  And while hindsight can be 20:20, sometimes looking at things clearly is just too painful. 

Our local news was actually reporting on this additional social layer to Covid deaths in the unvaccinated.  No solutions were given other than a plea to vaccinate. 

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I have a childhood friend in her 40s who openly announced her opposition to the vaccine at the time she came down with Covid. She ended up in the ICU for more than a month, on a ventilator most of that time. At some points, it looked like she was not going to make it and it made me SO angry to think that she could have lost her life -- and her children their mother -- due to all of the lies and misinformation surrounding the vaccines. She did survive, although I think she has quite a bit of rehab to return to her previous state of health. 

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2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

We see this on this board. . .    but really what can you say?  Tragedy is tragedy.  And while hindsight can be 20:20, sometimes looking at things clearly is just too painful. 

Our local news was actually reporting on this additional social layer to Covid deaths in the unvaccinated.  No solutions were given other than a plea to vaccinate. 

Although I doubt this could actually be instituted, I wonder if it would make a difference if unvaccinated hospitalized people had to pay for their care rather than it being covered by insurance? Of course with an exception for those who can’t vaccinate due to existing health conditions. I remember a few years ago when a young boy in my state spent a very long time suffering in a pediatric ICU due to tetanus. And even when he was released, the parents still refused to vaccinate him. Lots of people then were calling for insurance companies to refuse payment in such cases.

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1 minute ago, Frances said:

Although I doubt this could actually be instituted, I wonder if it would make a difference if unvaccinated hospitalized people had to pay for their care rather than it being covered by insurance? Of course with an exception for those who can’t vaccinate due to existing health conditions. I remember a few years ago when a young boy in my state spent a very long time suffering in a pediatric ICU due to tetanus. And even when he was released, the parents still refused to vaccinate him. Lots of people then were calling for insurance companies to refuse payment in such cases.

Can’t think of a way to do this that wouldn’t  end up hurting people who didn’t make the choice. Like kids in those families who would either be bankrupted or the kids might not get the care they need if parents knew they would have to pay for it. Or the surviving spouse of a partner who wouldn’t get vaccinated. I wouldn’t want to see that happen. Perhaps there could be something like a higher co-pay in those cases. I really don’t know.. Smokers don’t have to pay for their lung cancer treatment if they’re insured, know what I mean? They do have to pay higher life insurance premiums, as they should. I suppose life insurance is one of those things that could be affected by vaccination status. That’s only going to apply to a subset of people, though. People choosing not to avoid serious illness or death by getting a free shot is certainly going to have a big impact on healthcare costs, though.

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

Reading that article just leaves me shaking my head. A very sick 74 year old hospitalized with the virus still hasn’t changed her mind about the vaccine, calling it too new. Is the virus not new? What do we possibly do with that level of critical thinking skills? And the poor health care workers who are going through the trauma of packed hospitals all over again, but this time with younger, sicker patients.

Edited by Frances
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1 minute ago, KSera said:

Can’t think of a way to do this that wouldn’t  end up hurting people who didn’t make the choice. Like kids in those families who would either be bankrupted or the kids might not get the care they need if parents knew they would have to pay for it. Or the surviving spouse of a partner who wouldn’t get vaccinated. I wouldn’t want to see that happen. Perhaps there could be something like a higher co-pay in those cases. I really don’t know.. Smokers don’t have to pay for their lung cancer treatment if they’re insured, know what I mean? They do have to pay higher life insurance premiums, as they should. I suppose life insurance is one of those things that could be affected by vaccination status. That’s only going to apply to a subset of people, though. People choosing not to avoid serious illness or death by getting a free shot is certainly going to have a big impact on healthcare costs, though.

Yes, the individual decision not to vaccinate costs all of us in multiple ways, including more tax dollars for healthcare and potentially higher private insurance premiums. 

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3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Tell me please.....what could have prevented my situation. 

 

Please...............tell me exactly what more I could have done. 

I really, really, really, really don't feel like answering this question on here. I'm deeply sorry for your loss and it doesn't even matter at this point what one could or couldn't have done. 

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3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I am just really really sick of the narrative that "if we had just done the right thing" XYZ could have been prevented.  I am tired of being told that this was our fault. 

But does it even matter whether one could have done something different with perfect knowledge?? There are so many things in my life that I would have done differently had I known the future. Hindsight is 20/20. It changes nothing. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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I don't know about you, but often when things go wrong for me, all the things I should have done differently spin through my head, over and over again 😕. And what good does any of it do? 😞 

The only time this is even useful is when I look forward. Are there things I'll do differently next time? Maybe then it's useful to think about. Are there things I'd want other people to know? Maybe then, too. Otherwise, it's just pointless self-flagellation 😕 . 

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7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I am just really really sick of the narrative that "if we had just done the right thing" XYZ could have been prevented.

I think that’s a totally different discussion than the one we’re having now. We’re taking about in a  post vaccine world. 99% of the people dying now  could have prevented it and chose not to, primarily based on propaganda that’s been aggressively spread. That’s a totally different situation than before the vaccine. 

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Just now, KSera said:

I think that’s a totally different discussion than the one we’re having now. We’re taking about in a  post vaccine world. 99% of the people dying now  could have prevented it and chose not to, primarily based on propaganda that’s been aggressively spread. That’s a totally different situation than before the vaccine. 

Exactly.  What my question would be is "what would I do now?"  And what I would do now is what I am doing now:  urging, coaxing, begging people to get vaccinated.  Begging them to avoid parties especially indoors.  Telling them that it's still beneficial to mask even now when indoors.  What I wouldn't do now is to minimize the virus and make the mitigation efforts into a political thing. 

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19 hours ago, Shelydon said:

I had several relatives and friends die from Covid in 2020 and early 2021.  A relative is in ICU on a vent and is not expected to survive the weekend. For some reason knowing she didn't have to get sick if she had chosen to get the vaccine makes this process much harder. 

My brother has Covid right now and is quite sick. He was vaccinated back in January.  Do you know for sure that she was not vaccinated? I have told people on this board that I have been vaccinated, but I doubt anyone in real life knows I was vaccinated, unless it was a sibling because they went with me. My grandma and aunt and uncle would know too.

Edited by Janeway
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1 hour ago, Frances said:

Although I doubt this could actually be instituted, I wonder if it would make a difference if unvaccinated hospitalized people had to pay for their care rather than it being covered by insurance? Of course with an exception for those who can’t vaccinate due to existing health conditions. I remember a few years ago when a young boy in my state spent a very long time suffering in a pediatric ICU due to tetanus. And even when he was released, the parents still refused to vaccinate him. Lots of people then were calling for insurance companies to refuse payment in such cases.

Where my husband works vaccinated people get automatic paid time off if they test positive or are quarantined.  Unvaccinated people do not have this option any longer and all time off comes from their CTO banks. They did have paid time off until this last months when general precautions ended and they stopped it because people were abusing it something awful.  They still have low rates, as does our whole area. 

Edited by melmichigan
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12 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

Where my husband works vaccinated people get automatic paid time off if they test positive or are quarantined.  Unvaccinated people do not have this option any longer and all time off comes from their CTO banks

This is a really smart strategy. 

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24 minutes ago, Janeway said:

My brother has Covid right now and is quite sick. He was vaccinated back in January.  Do you know for sure that she was not vaccinated? I have told people on this board that I have been vaccinated, but I doubt anyone in real life knows I was vaccinated, unless it was a sibling because they went with me. My grandma and aunt and uncle would know too.

Yes, I know for sure. She was very vocal about not getting the vaccine.

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6 hours ago, kbutton said:

What is the reasoning for this vaccine technology being less objectionable? Just curious. When I read about subunit vaccines, they talk about adjuvants and about existing vaccines that people already object to if they are going to object to vaccines. 

I have a relative who says they are waiting for Novamax, with the explanation that it is a “traditional” vaccine rather than an experimental mRNA type.  AstraZeneca is not available here, and there are only mRNA types.  So I do think it will make a difference for a certain group of people who are now hesitant but not absolutely anti-vax.  My phone wants to autocorrect anti-vax to anti-vacation and anti-van…

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50 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I am just really really sick of the narrative that "if we had just done the right thing" XYZ could have been prevented.  I am tired of being told that this was our fault. 

For Covid pre-vaccine-- some people definitely chose a lifestyle that led to their illness and ultimately their death. I had friends and acquaintances who either got very sick or passed away after attending church or other larger gatherings unmasked. They knew that they had a strong possibility of getting sick, as they told me they were " choosing to live life." Other friends got it from doing their job as healthcare providers, or my elderly relatives got it from their nursing home through no fault of their own.   NOW-- everyone over the age of 12 can choose to be vaccinated and therefore choose not to get exceptionally ill or die. 99.7 percent of the death  and hospitalizations in my area are unvaccinated individuals. For me personally, it is harder to deal with relatives getting sick and dying because they are refusing to vaccinate than it was for those who were just refused to mask or inadvertently caught the virus through no fault of their own. 

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5 minutes ago, Eilonwy said:

I have a relative who says they are waiting for Novamax, with the explanation that it is a “traditional” vaccine rather than an experimental mRNA type.  AstraZeneca is not available here, and there are only mRNA types.  So I do think it will make a difference for a certain group of people who are now hesitant but not absolutely anti-vax.  My phone wants to autocorrect anti-vax to anti-vacation and anti-van…

That makes sense in the context of availability. In the US, we have J and J, which is not an mRNA vaccine. PeterPan lives in the same state and country as me, so I am still curious what the reasoning might be for my context, but thank you for chiming in. I hope it's made available to your relative who's waiting! 

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9 minutes ago, Eilonwy said:

I have a relative who says they are waiting for Novamax, with the explanation that it is a “traditional” vaccine rather than an experimental mRNA type.  AstraZeneca is not available here, and there are only mRNA types.  So I do think it will make a difference for a certain group of people who are now hesitant but not absolutely anti-vax.  My phone wants to autocorrect anti-vax to anti-vacation and anti-van…

Even if they don't understand how vaccines work and "waiting for a traditional vaccine" is a face-saving measure, I don't even care.  If they get ANY vaccine if helps everyone.  Between the data coming out of hospitals and more vaccine choices, I really really hope people become less hesitant about vaccines.

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1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

Everyone followed every single dang protocol recommended.  No one in the chain of events that has me where I am at any one point CHOSE a lifestyle.....No one made choices that contributed to this.   And I am just really tired of being told that he or I did something wrong.

But you aren't being told that. You're hearing it, but you aren't being told it. You had awful, rotten luck. That's all. Lots of people were like that. No one blames them. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

My Dh didn't attend church.  My DH wore his mask (ultimately a varity of homemade and basic paper work provided masks) every day he went to work.  The co-worker he got it from wore his mask (work provided paper mask only) every day.  The co-worker's child wore his masks at school.  Child was sent home the day symptoms appeared and co-worker was sent home the day the workplace was aware the kid had been sent home.

 

Everyone followed every single dang protocol recommended.  No one in the chain of events that has me where I am at any one point CHOSE a lifestyle.....No one made choices that contributed to this.   And I am just really tired of being told that he or I did something wrong.

It sounds like you both did everything you could do. So did my father-in-law. He caught Covid and died of total organ failure within 3 days.  It wasn't his fault. It's not your fault.  Sometimes you do everything right and crap still happens. Which sucks. 

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15 minutes ago, Shelydon said:

It sounds like you both did everything you could do. So did my father-in-law. He caught Covid and died of total organ failure within 3 days.  It wasn't his fault. It's not your fault.  Sometimes you do everything right and crap still happens. Which sucks. 

Right. Sometimes, bricks fall on people's heads. And it just sucks and it's not fair and that's all there is to it. 

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

I think that’s a totally different discussion than the one we’re having now. We’re taking about in a  post vaccine world. 99% of the people dying now  could have prevented it and chose not to, primarily based on propaganda that’s been aggressively spread. That’s a totally different situation than before the vaccine. 

This is what my comment was aimed at.

Of course people die for reasons that are not their fault. Nothing could have been done to prevent my daughter's brain tumor, or her death. 99+% of people with her brain tumor die within 2 years of diagnosis because there is no effective treatment. Your husband took precautions and still died of covid. Tragedies happen. There are people who were vaccinated and still catch covid. I'm going out into public now, masked, knowing that my vaccine was likely not super effective based on my medical situation.  I may catch covid. I'm not going to heap condemnation on myself for that if I do because I am taking reasonable precautions. I'm not going into indoor spaces unmasked (ie not eating inside restaurants) and so on.  Yet, I'm still putting myself at risk (compared to zero) when I choose to go out. I acknowledge that.  But I've done what I can to minimize the risk.

I'm specifically referring to people who have vaccines available of them, who choose not to mask and not to socially distance. I'm talking about people in my own circle who now have long-term heart and lung damage post-covid,  and who happen, coincidentally, to also be the people who also berated me for "living in fear" and "hiding in my house" when we took a number of precautions.  If you choose not to vaccinate and choose not to mask and choose not to socially distance as of now and you are over 12+ I do think you should take some accountability for your choices. 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

This needs to NOT be swept under the rug.  It needs to be acknowledged.  It needs to be validated.  We need to stop telling people that if they just didn't F-up...that their loved ones would still be here. 

I am so sorry again about your husband.  You are correct.  It is a folly to believe that we have ultimate control over this.  We can do our best but still much of is is/was out of our control.   While no one close to me died, I have long covid and am not sure when I will recover (or if). I have gone the rounds and the reality is, sometimes bad things happen.   People want to believe otherwise as a protective mechanism. 

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1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

This needs to NOT be swept under the rug.  It needs to be acknowledged.  It needs to be validated.  We need to stop telling people that if they just didn't F-up...that their loved ones would still be here. 

It's not a secret that a great many people did everything they could and still caught Covid and died.  It's a global tragedy and for a long time, even when you did everything in your power, you couldn't protect yourself.  A lot of people who FEEL like they stayed healthy because they were good at taking all of the precautions were really just good at not breathing covid contaminated air . . . that's luck, not skill.  It was all awful and nobody asked for any of this.  

Now that we're in the post-vaccine portion of the pandemic, we really CAN do something to greatly reduce our risk of death.  That's the conversation we're having now and it's no reflection on what anyone did or didn't do pre-vaccine.

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11 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

A lot of people who FEEL like they stayed healthy because they were good at taking all of the precautions were really just good at not breathing covid contaminated air . . . that's luck, not skill. 

I mean, it's both, right? You play the odds. It's better to optimize one's odds than not to. But it's not a GUARANTEE. Sometimes you get dealt crap hands, and then it doesn't matter how well you play. 

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