At what point would you lock down again?

[cintinative]

16 minutes ago, TCB said:

Why else is he saying hospitals aren’t trustworthy? Because of that dr? What do hospitals have to gain from lying?

In my experience hospitals say very little about what is going on because of the whole privacy issue. 
 

ETA Sorry I noticed the JAWM after I posted so feel free to ignore.

Here's a for example of his thinking.  (Please y'all, this is not MY thinking, understand I totally disagree with him). Our local children's hospital (one of the best in the U.S.) is always asking for money, but he says that they have all kinds of new buildings, etc. Plus last year they billed us $1400 for blood work for my son that we could have done for less than $100 with LabCorp. Conclusion: they only want money, they can't be trusted.  So, when all the Ohio children's hospitals recently put out a unified statement saying that cases in children were increasing, and asking people to mask and vaccinate, somehow we can't take this on face value. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Here's a for example of his thinking.  (Please y'all, this is not MY thinking, understand I totally disagree with him). Our local children's hospital (one of the best in the U.S.) is always asking for money, but he says that they have all kinds of new buildings, etc. Plus last year they billed us $1400 for blood work for my son that we could have done for less than $100 with LabCorp. Conclusion: they only want money, they can't be trusted.  So, when all the Ohio children's hospitals recently put out a unified statement saying that cases in children were increasing, and asking people to mask and vaccinate, somehow we can't take this on face value. 

Honestly, this sounds like motivated reasoning, which means you can't possibly get through to him. I suppose the best way to try to do so would be to slooowly wear him down: when I've convinced people of things, it has been over years of patient and unflappable unchangeability, along with plenty of outside evidence. But honestly, that's an unpleasant way to run one's life, and I don't actually try to convince most people of things. 

[cintinative]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Honestly, this sounds like motivated reasoning, which means you can't possibly get through to him. 

This is how I feel most days. The issue is, his actions do impact our family, just as we have been saying in this thread that individuals impact their community.  So I can't totally throw my hands up. I have to choose when I will stand my ground vs. not because we would be financially ruined if one of us ended up in the hospital.  Again, he picks and chooses what he clings to. His mom's good friend, elderly and on daily oxygen, got COVID and never even went into the hospital. So, from his perspective, even though he has a lung disease, he will be fine. Never mind the people who were triathletes that ended up on vents.  Sigh.

[SKL]

18 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Here's a for example of his thinking.  (Please y'all, this is not MY thinking, understand I totally disagree with him). Our local children's hospital (one of the best in the U.S.) is always asking for money, but he says that they have all kinds of new buildings, etc. Plus last year they billed us $1400 for blood work for my son that we could have done for less than $100 with LabCorp. Conclusion: they only want money, they can't be trusted.  So, when all the Ohio children's hospitals recently put out a unified statement saying that cases in children were increasing, and asking people to mask and vaccinate, somehow we can't take this on face value.

1) I totally understand how the billing creates distrust!  I barely use MDs any more because of similar reasons.

2) Tell him to look at the Ohio Covid dashboards.  On the children page, you can see that hospitalizations of children are going up.  I'm linking the hospitalizations page.  You can filter this by region (about 2/3 down the hospitalizations page).  There are some regions of Ohio where it's getting concerning, while other areas are doing pretty well.  Ohio overall looks OK right now.  But our vax rate is below the US average, so this could change as Delta continues to move north.

https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/covid-19/dashboards/key-metrics/hospitalizations

Edited September 8, 2021 by SKL

[mommyoffive]

Covid-19: How many deaths can we take? (msn.com)

 

Recovery From Severe COVID-19 May Provide Better Future Protection Against Some Variants (msn.com)

[cintinative]

48 minutes ago, SKL said:

1) I totally understand how the billing creates distrust!  I barely use MDs any more because of similar reasons.

2) Tell him to look at the Ohio Covid dashboards.  On the children page, you can see that hospitalizations of children are going up.  I'm linking the hospitalizations page.  You can filter this by region (about 2/3 down the hospitalizations page).  There are some regions of Ohio where it's getting concerning, while other areas are doing pretty well.  Ohio overall looks OK right now.  But our vax rate is below the US average, so this could change as Delta continues to move north.

https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/covid-19/dashboards/key-metrics/hospitalizations

I have been looking at these dashboards plus the Ohio hospital association COVID dashboard (it provides slightly different information such as 1 out of X patients in the ICU are COVID positive, etc.). Both provide information by region.  We are in Region 6. I have not looked at the other areas of the state to be honest. Our numbers are not like those of TX or FL at all, but they are creeping up. Our hospital census is increasing.  

[SKL]

9 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I have been looking at these dashboards plus the Ohio hospital association COVID dashboard (it provides slightly different information such as 1 out of X patients in the ICU are COVID positive, etc.). Both provide information by region.  We are in Region 6. I have not looked at the other areas of the state to be honest. Our numbers are not like those of TX or FL at all, but they are creeping up. Our hospital census is increasing.  

Is your dh looking at the Ohio dashboards?  I feel this seems like an objective enough source that doubters might be more open to trust the info.

I accidentally noticed this particular dashboard (linked - breakthrough hospitalizations and deaths) a few weeks ago.  It says a lot in few words.  Have you shown this to your DH?

https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/covid-19/dashboards/covid-19-vaccine/breakthrough-dashboard

[cintinative]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

Is your dh looking at the Ohio dashboards?  I feel this seems like an objective enough source that doubters might be more open to trust the info.

I accidentally noticed this particular dashboard (linked - breakthrough hospitalizations and deaths) a few weeks ago.  It says a lot in few words.  Have you shown this to your DH?

https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/covid-19/dashboards/covid-19-vaccine/breakthrough-dashboard

We are all vaxxed here. He would only say that this means he does not need to be as cautious because look--most people who are vaxxed do not end up in the hospital (which is true! except that the babies and toddlers in church can't be vaxxed and we can still be carriers).   Not arguing with you, I promise. I have tried. I really have. 

[mommyoffive]

Texas school districts masks up following Covid deaths of two middle school teachers (msn.com)

Opinion: There's good and bad news about Covid-19 (msn.com)

[mommyoffive]

We can return to our 2019 normalcy, thanks to the vaccine. COVID doomsayers should get over it (msn.com)

 

Biden to address pandemic-weary nation (msn.com)

 

Idaho has just 9 free ICU beds as officials admit having too few resources to handle a surge in severe COVID-19 cases (msn.com)

 

Biden to announce ‘6-pronged strategy’ against COVID as delta variant stalls recovery (msn.com)

 

Rolling Stone COVID-19 debacle is indicative of a larger problem in media (msn.com)

 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, cintinative said:

We are all vaxxed here. He would only say that this means he does not need to be as cautious because look--most people who are vaxxed do not end up in the hospital (which is true! except that the babies and toddlers in church can't be vaxxed and we can still be carriers).   Not arguing with you, I promise. I have tried. I really have. 

I do think being vaxxed means he can be less cautious. That seems reasonable to me. I do plan to return to something like normal life after we're all vaxxed, assuming there aren't tons of vaccine-resistant variants floating around. 

[cintinative]

4 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

We can return to our 2019 normalcy, thanks to the vaccine. COVID doomsayers should get over it (msn.com)

 

confused. Do you agree with what this article is saying? 

[kbutton]

12 minutes ago, cintinative said:

We are all vaxxed here. He would only say that this means he does not need to be as cautious because look--most people who are vaxxed do not end up in the hospital (which is true! except that the babies and toddlers in church can't be vaxxed and we can still be carriers).   Not arguing with you, I promise. I have tried. I really have. 

I think it's very encouraging that he's vaccinated. Being suspicious about hospitals and the media is concerning, but the fact that he's vaccinated while feeling this way is HUGE. 

[cintinative]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I do think being vaxxed means he can be less cautious. That seems reasonable to me. I do plan to return to something like normal life after we're all vaxxed, assuming there aren't tons of vaccine-resistant variants floating around. 

True. But if we can still spread COVID to others, I think the kind and others-centered thing to do is to wear masks when we are out. 

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Honestly, this sounds like motivated reasoning, which means you can't possibly get through to him. I suppose the best way to try to do so would be to slooowly wear him down: when I've convinced people of things, it has been over years of patient and unflappable unchangeability, along with plenty of outside evidence. But honestly, that's an unpleasant way to run one's life, and I don't actually try to convince most people of things. 

That’s great marriage advice: slowly wear your spouse down until they think exactly how you want them to think

 

/end sarcasm, in case it isn’t obvious

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, cintinative said:

True. But if we can still spread COVID to others, I think the kind and others-centered thing to do is to wear masks when we are out. 

I certainly would myself. But I'll stop feeling that way after all age groups can be vaccinated, I think, at least if cases in my area aren't skyrocketing. That being said, I foresee COVID making a long-term impact on how I behave, and masking in public crowded spaces may very well stick around for us. 

[mommyoffive]

5 minutes ago, cintinative said:

confused. Do you agree with what this article is saying? 

Everything I post isn't my belief.  It is just news clips.  Do I believe in some of that the article is saying.  Yes.   Covid is here to stay.   Did I judge all the college football games that had 80k people at, yes yes.  Would I go to one?  Nope.   Am I having trouble opening up?  Yes.  It was a real struggle for me at first.  Now I am more just waiting for the shoe to drop after opening up. 

But I would say I am still a CovidPhobe.  I want to loosen up and rejoin things and travel.  But I am worried.  I am careful.  We are doing really thought out and careful things.  I am not jumping on a plane to travel now even though I want to.  I have 3 unvaccinated kids that I hope to get a shot into before they get Covid. We are doing everything we can to make sure that happens.   But my kids also need to be involved in things for their mental health.  They didn't do anything in person until July.  So my 3 youngers are going to outdoor nature schools with masks inside and out.  My kids are doing ballet at their studio with masks, temp checks, most everyone 12 and up vaccinated.  (They had to be to be in the show they are doing).   We are trying out outdoor sports like mountain biking, sailing, and horseback riding.   The last 2 we do with private lessons.  Mountain biking ds does with a team and then they do with dh.   We  mask everywhere and don't play outside with others in our neighborhood because nobody masks here.  I was going to let the kids play with others outside and then Delta.  I don't know if that is ok to do anymore without masks.  One day I am all about living like everyone  in my neighborhood does, and the next I am thinking about crowded hospitals, the sad stories of people dying now, and the possibility of long Covid.   

[cintinative]

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

[mommyoffive]

10 minutes ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

1. no.  I wouldn't go to anything indoors where everyone isn't masked.  I freak out at the store if there are a lot of unmasked people even though I am vaxxed and wearing a KN95 mask.  Just not comfortable for me to do right now.  I was kind of freaking out going to a show indoors with everyone masked and vaxxed or negative test.  As much as I want to see that show, I just don't think I want to give that test right now and see how it goes.  

2  no.  But to be fair, I have a negative desire to go into a restaurant now.  Maybe on an outdoor patio would be the only thing I could think of doing. 

 

3 yes.  We never stopped masking.  We started in March 2020 when we were the only ones in our area doing it.  We did even after dh and I were vaxxed, because we had unvaxxed kids and just wanted to be extra careful.  We wanted to see how the vaccine really did with everything.  We even masked outdoors in close proximity to people.  To me it is nothing hard to do to just give you an extra layer of protection.  The only time I hate is when it 90 plus degrees.  I honestly don't know when I will be able to go indoors without a mask.  I feel like there was like a few weeks when Delta wasn't there where it might have been ok.   

Edited September 8, 2021 by mommyoffive

[regentrude]

51 minutes ago, cintinative said:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

1. absolutely not.

2. No. (Unless the restaurant is very empty, I am in a party of only vaccinated people, very far away from other patrons - we ate inside a Panera once during the pandemic since it was freezing; closest other people 20 ft away, wolfed down our food to get back on the road). Local positivity is a meaningless number to me, since it is unclear how many folks test. You can achieve low positivity rates if there's a lot of routine testing and high rates if only sick people test.

3. Yes, I would still wear a mask in public indoor settings. I am in a room with 200 people every single week for work, so have a high exposure risk already, and thus also am a larger risk to others. Unless numbers dwindle to low local incidences.

If that makes me a Covid phobe in the eyes of the readers of the washington examiner (where the recently linked article came from), I don't give a crap about their opinion.

Edited September 8, 2021 by regentrude

[mommyoffive]

wow New York went back to orange on covidactnow

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

1) We haven't returned to church yet, because there are too many elderly people there, and I don't know that they are fully protected.  My kids are going to school and sports.  We could spread germs despite our vax.  Church is an hour+ of shared air.

2) We never stopped going to restaurants weekly (except when they had to shut down during Spring 2020).  Spread in restaurants has been proven to be very low, and now, everyone serving us has had the opportunity to be vaxed.  People at higher risk have other reasonable options.

3) Grocery would be each person's choice IMO.  We don't go there often - we get most groceries delivered - but I do send my kids in to grab some groceries and do self-checkout at times.  They are not breathing in anyone's face and they aren't there long.  People at higher risk have options other than walking through the grocery store and breathing my kids' germs.  The few times I've walked through a store I've been very quick and I naturally stay away from others.

[TCB]

15 minutes ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

My whole family is vaxed but we are not doing those things. I honestly don’t know what the positivity is around here, because I haven’t looked, and because a lot of people here don’t bother testing unless they get really sick, so I don’t think any numbers are very meaningful. I  react based on the fact that at least 1/2 the available ICU beds, and often more, at my hospital are Covid patients and have been for several months. I have never known such a large proportion of ICU beds to be taken up by 1 diagnosis before.
I did listen to a podcast with ZDoggMd and Monica Gandhi where they mentioned several recent studies showing that vaccinated people appeared to be a lot less likely to spread Covid while infected, so that seems encouraging.

 

ETA. My girls and I are masking inside, my husband does some, but not everywhere. Fortunately he had the Moderna vax so I’m hoping he just isn’t going to get infected, and so can’t spread anything.

I’ve kind of given up doing much more than what I think is the right thing and being a good example rather than being vocal unless asked. I feel like I’m hanging by a thread and just surviving. The toll from looking after people and getting to know them, and helping them fight it, and then seeing them almost inevitably lose the battle and die is just almost too much to bear anymore. If people who think it’s exaggerated want my job I’ll happily step aside and let them have it.

Edited September 8, 2021 by TCB

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

Number 1. If we were still Christians, the answer would be no because if only 1 out of 5 people is masked despite the recommendations, then that whole "do unto others" thing and "love your neighbor" means exactly zilch to them.

2. Probably not. We really enjoy outside dining anyway. But in Michigan, from May - October, this is very doable. It means not eating indoors at restaurants during the winter unless positivity rates drop. I would do it at 1-5%. After that, it dings my nope risk assessment radar.

3. My whole immediate family is vaxed, and we still do not do indoor public without a mask. I still use curbside pick up. And this past winter of no sore throats, no influenza, no colds, no laryngitis has convinced me that grocery shopping with a mask on in winter is here to stay for me. My mother in law does not appear to have formed any immunity despite the shot. She chose JnJ, but when boosters come out, her doctor is going to get her a Pfizer and see if she shows any signs of immune response. She has a lot of health problems and is 85. While I can't protect her from everything and have to balance having a life of some kind with her health, I am not looking to deliberately shove her into the grave either. So crowded indoor places are.going to be mask situations for us for a very long time. Michigan is beginning its "everyone came home from cabins/camping/beaches/woods and going indoors life again with kids starting schools, most rural districts having no covid precautions whatsoever. It is about to get scary again.

[kbutton]

6 minutes ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

1. Not really. We were doing this, but only going to Sunday School to avoid singing. It's a new to us church that masked, distanced, the whole works for a very long time. Vaccination was encouraged from the pulpit, so their vax rate is probably high. But with very few people masking, we are just uneasy with numbers going up locally. We'd probably be comfortable going masked if rates drop again. Maybe not comfortable, but we'd think it was important enough to go in spite of the mild risk. 

2. No. We ate out exactly one time (had to meet up with out of town family to exchange people). Delta was not a thing in the US or the region yet, and we were all vaccinated. It was during that tiny pause before Delta went crazy.

3. Yes. We do so because of public health guidance that says everyone needs to be masked indoors. Climbing numbers mean we're back to grocery pickup in the parking lot, actually. If someone needs to go into a store that is sort of a hassle for online orders or doesn't have an online option, DH wears a fit-tested N-95 and does it since he's already the most exposed person in the house. We don't use a specific metric other than "it's getting worse here and at DH's work."

We will do some kind of modifications as long as it's officially a pandemic (and if it is a local epidemic), but those modifications will increase or decrease based on our risk and on spread.

[Acadie]

7 minutes ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

1. No, dh and I are 5 months out from our second shots, and I'll feel more confident when we've had boosters. Basically we're doing what's necessary indoors in masked environments (school, work) but being very choosy about optional indoor things. Outdoor or online Mass for now. For dd15, I've said she could go masked with friends to the art museum which is huge, well-ventilated and not crowded, but not to the movie theater, which has been divided into small rooms. 

2. No, just patio dining and takeout. Had a fabulous patio dinner in view of a lake the other night and there was a guy having a coughing fit at the other end of the patio, which confirmed for me that I wouldn't be comfortable inside. 

3. Still masking in all public indoor settings for our and others' health. 

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

1. no

2  no

3 yes

Same answers for me. 

I will be at in-person, indoor church this weekend for the first time since the pandemic started. But masking is required and honestly knowing our congregation, I'd be really shocked if our vax rate among over-12s isn't close to 100%.  And ETA:  There won't be singing.

I am considering going back to my fitness studio if they changed policy to either check to make sure everyone is vaxxed, OR require everyone to wear one (I'd be happier with both, but they're doing neither). I would mask myself.  

I was okay with the non-checking and non-masking of others with only myself masked this summer when cases here were super-low, but not since Delta's hit. I might be okay with that again once the wave has passed. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Matryoshka

[mommyoffive]

4 minutes ago, Acadie said:

1. No, dh and I are 5 months out from our second shots, and I'll feel more confident when we've had boosters. Basically we're doing what's necessary indoors in masked environments (school, work) but being very choosy about optional indoor things. Outdoor or online Mass for now. For dd15, I've said she could go masked with friends to the art museum which is huge, well-ventilated and not crowded, but not to the movie theater, which has been divided into small rooms. 

2. No, just patio dining and takeout. Had a fabulous patio dinner in view of a lake the other night and there was a guy having a coughing fit at the other end of the patio, which confirmed for me that I wouldn't be comfortable inside. 

3. Still masking in all public indoor settings for our and others' health. 

Yep me too.  I am worried about that.   I want the 4 of us to get a 3rd shot now.  

[SKL]

58 minutes ago, cintinative said:

We are all vaxxed here. He would only say that this means he does not need to be as cautious because look--most people who are vaxxed do not end up in the hospital (which is true! except that the babies and toddlers in church can't be vaxxed and we can still be carriers).   Not arguing with you, I promise. I have tried. I really have. 

Is it mostly church that you disagree about?

That is a tough one.  Most people I know IRL seem to be comfortable going to church (if they normally would go).  I think I'm an outlier on that one.

I just feel that if anyone should be able to attend church safely, it should be the elderly who are preparing for their final reward.  There is no reason in my mind that our high school germs need to be there right now.  We'll go back when it's safer for the elderly.

(If I was alone, working at home, getting my exercise walking in the open air, then ... maybe I'd feel differently.  I'm not sure.  But my reality is that my kids are almost certainly exposed to Covid.)

[Harriet Vane]

25 minutes ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

We are vaccinated and we wear masks in groups and in indoor settings.

1--No, not comfortable at all. I currently go to our small group class on Sundays that is in a wing alone, but I do not go to our regular large Sunday service. Dh and I are literally the only masked people in the entire building each week. That's just toooooo much viral load being generated by talking and singing. No attempts at ventilation anywhere. 

2---Absolutely not. Way too much viral load. Breakthrough cases do happen. I already fought for my life in the ICU once (a couple years ago for a life-threatening abdominal infection). It was deeply traumatizing and I live with permanent effects from that wretched infection. There is no way I would risk another major illness.

3--Yes, definitely. Case numbers and hospitalizations need to get down quite a bit lower. Also I'm a little spooked by breakthrough cases and I hope and pray we find a way to generate vaccines that are a closer match for Delta (and Mu and the other variants that pop up). So--the two determining factors for me are spread and ongoing vaccine availability. After this wretched pandemic I have also learned the value of ventilation, so that is a factor in my comfort level as well. 

[happi duck]

32 minutes ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

1. No. It's too long in one space with people talking, singing etc.

2.  No.  Not worth it.  If we really want restaurant food we'll do takeout.

3.  Yes.  Even vaxxed I can catch and spread covid so I mask indoors.

 

[Danae]

26 minutes ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

1) Right now, no.  Not solely because of COVID risk but because of what that says about their theology and attitude toward the world.  Our church is still combined Zoom and in person, in person is 100% masked.  We believe that’s part of how to be a Christian in the current situation.  
 

2) 15% positivity is high.  I realize we’ve shifted the thought window on this since so many places are even higher, but no, I would not even consider it until it’s under 5%.

3) We mask in grocery stores when cases and positivity rates are going up in our state. I track COVID stats not because I care about the specific risk of encountering a contagious person on this particular shopping trip but because I want to know which direction they’re heading.  Numbers going up means they’re heading the wrong direction and everyone should be doing everything they reasonably can to turn that around. 

[regentrude]

35 minutes ago, SKL said:

2) We never stopped going to restaurants weekly ...  People at higher risk have other reasonable options.

3)   People at higher risk have options other than walking through the grocery store and breathing my kids' germs.  

What other reasonable options do high risk employees have? If you're a waitress or a cashier, you don't have the privilege of working from home.

I have noticed in others of your posts that you tend to overlook the folks who have to work in these places. 

[Junie]

1.  Yes -- although there is virtually no masking at our church.  I don't agree with how my church is handling covid at all, but it my kids' main social outlet.  Other than work, we would have no other activities, so any spread from our family would likely be from church members to other church members.  They would be our "bubble".  I'm not comfortable with it, but I want to do it for my kids.  We will definitely wait until dd11 is vaccinated and we *might* wait until the vaccine is available for all age groups.

2.  Yes -- Dh and I only eat out a few times a year.  If all of the kids were vaxed, I would feel comfortable with going on a date with my husband once every six months as we have previously.

3.  Yes -- I would still mask at the grocery store.

[cintinative]

28 minutes ago, SKL said:

Is it mostly church that you disagree about?

That is a tough one.  Most people I know IRL seem to be comfortable going to church (if they normally would go).  I think I'm an outlier on that one.

I just feel that if anyone should be able to attend church safely, it should be the elderly who are preparing for their final reward.  There is no reason in my mind that our high school germs need to be there right now.  We'll go back when it's safer for the elderly.

(If I was alone, working at home, getting my exercise walking in the open air, then ... maybe I'd feel differently.  I'm not sure.  But my reality is that my kids are almost certainly exposed to Covid.)

No, it's a whole other thread really.   He also is of the opinion that the mask mandates (which OH doesn't have anymore, but I digress), etc. are all part of slippery slope that will lead us all into communism.  It's that whole "freedom as an individual" versus "responsibility to the community" debate that we have been discussing for months. 

[catz]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

1 - no.  Unless I know local vaccine rates were high and numbers were very low.  Like in June, I might have done this but I was still getting my bearings in June lol.  I didn't get my 2nd vaccine until mid May.  

It would depend on local culture too.  If I were in an area with high covid denial, I also would just assume those who were not vaccinating and not masking, were probably not being hyper aware of covid symptoms and testing like we might here.  Like I go to a UU church and I would trust their in person activities now and they still are streaming and doing stuff online too.  

2- No.  I still haven't eaten inside a restaurant but I've done tons of takeout to eat outdoors and some patios.  Just not worth it for me.  I am trying to tip staff big right now for take out and I mask up for curbside to respect employees.  

3 - yes, we're all masking again with this latest surge.  Though in June I was running a few errands without masks.  

Now all that said, this last weekend I did an indoor performance with probably a few hundred masked people on a college campus with a 90% vaccine rate and an indoor mask mandate.  I've kind of decided, we need to take some risks.  My college kid was actually IN the performance.  But if I'm going to get breakthrough covid, it's going to be somewhere I REALLY want to be and not somewhere like a random chain restaurant or a grocery store.  Or somewhere my teenager really NEEDS to be (she is doing some in person activities this fall and yes she is vaccinated).  We are still using curbside at Target and our local grocery store which are both doing an excellent job with covid protocols and have fully masked staff again now.  

I am anxious to get a booster assuming the data holds on that.  

Edited September 8, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[TexasProud]

1. Yes ( Only activity)

2. No

3vyes

Niw that mom has cancer it is bo to all and being completely isolated. Probably from spouse as well. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by TexasProud

[cintinative]

Just now, TexasProud said:

 

Niw that mom has cancer it is bo to all and being completely isolated. Probably from spouse as well. 

NIW?  BO?  Thanks for clarifying.

[Danae]

1 minute ago, cintinative said:

NIW?  BO?  Thanks for clarifying.

“Now” and “no.”  

[cintinative]

Just now, Danae said:

“Now” and “no.”  

Thank you. I assumed it was some internet shorthand I hadn't yet seen! 😃

[Toocrazy!!]

Church isn’t important to me, so it’s hard to answer that one. I would consider double masking and sitting away from people if it was really important to me. 
 

My parents are in their 80’s snd love to go out to dinner. It’s their most favorite activity, so we have done this with them. Everyone at the table is vaccinated and we try to pick well, but we have done it. I won’t do it otherwise, only with them. 
 

I mask in all stores again. I don’t mind masking, it’s easy for me to do and I think it’s helpful to me and everyone else in the store just in case. 

[mommyoffive]

Requiring Masks in Schools Has a Downside - The Atlantic

[Loowit]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

1. No, I believe that we should be protecting everyone, including those who can't be vaccinated.  It isn't just about me and my family.  I gave up my "rights" when I decided to follow Christ.  And I honestly find it very disturbing that so many Christians are pushing "my rights" and "my body my choice" (with regards to masks and vaccines).  What about caring for other people, especially the vulnerable.  Church (the body of Christ) should be about caring for other people.

2.  No, probably not.  We have eating out at a restaurant once in this whole time.  It was in June when numbers and positivity were very low in a restaurant that could only be opened to a certain percent of customers, and masks were required of all staff and any unvaccinated patrons.  But to me this is a moot point, our positivity rate is much higher than that.  The state dashboard said 99.3% yesterday for my county, thought they do say they are missing some negative test data, I also know my county has not been testing enough, and doctors refuse to test people, and so on.

3.  Yes, but we have an indoor mask mandate here.  But realistically my mask is mostly to protect other people, not myself, so if I am the only one masking it isn't doing me a whole heck of a lot of good, while others are running around spreading viruses.

I am feeling very angry this morning.  Our county coroner just had to request the county commissioners declare an emergency and bring in refrigeration trucks because we can't handle the volume of dead people.  When it was announced on social media, people are saying that the county/coroner are lying and that they don't really need it.  Truly they are just willfully ignorant.

We have a push from loud obnoxious community members to get rid of masking, people refusing to mask even with a mandate, our local commissioners meetings and city council meetings are over run by anti-maskers.  The whole thing is just crazy.  Last night a city close to my had their meeting shut down because the city manager had the police chief and officers there to enforce masking at the city council meeting.  Many city council members left so there couldn't be a quorum.  And community members are calling on our (anti-mask) sheriff to take charge of the police station.  I know him and he won't do it (I hope), and he is not a vocal anti-masker, but the idea that people see this as a great solution astounds me.

I do curbside pick-up exclusively now, we only go to doctor/dentist appointments, and meeting with a very limited number of family who are also cautious and vaccinated.

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

So, maybe this has been discussed, but in light of the more recent comments (and because this thread is now 64 pages--gah!), question:

1. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you be comfortable going into a worship setting of 200 plus people where only 20% were masked?

2. If your whole family was vaxxed, would you eat inside at a restaurant if the local positivity was around 15%?

3.  If your whole family was vaxxed, would you still mask in public settings like the grocery? What would inform that decision? Would it be based on local case numbers or hospitalizations?  

 

1. No.

2. Yes, under certain conditions. DH and I went out last night, for the first time since the lull before Delta got bad. We went early to a restaurant we felt certain wouldn't be crowded on a weeknight. For awhile we had the place to ourselves, although more people were there and coming in when we were leaving.

3. Yes. We do. We stopped for a couple of weeks during the lull, but started right back as soon as case numbers started rising again.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Pawz4me

[SKL]

26 minutes ago, cintinative said:

No, it's a whole other thread really.   He also is of the opinion that the mask mandates (which OH doesn't have anymore, but I digress), etc. are all part of slippery slope that will lead us all into communism.  It's that whole "freedom as an individual" versus "responsibility to the community" debate that we have been discussing for months. 

Yeah, I personally don't consider mandates to have anything to do with my personal responsibility to the community.  If I have no choice, I do what I have to do because I have to, not because I'm responsible.  If I have a choice, I do a thing based on my feeling of responsibility.

I think freedom as an individual is very compatible with responsibility to the community.

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, Loowit said:

1. No, I believe that we should be protecting everyone, including those who can't be vaccinated.  It isn't just about me and my family.  I gave up my "rights" when I decided to follow Christ.  And I honestly find it very disturbing that so many Christians are pushing "my rights" and "my body my choice" (with regards to masks and vaccines).  What about caring for other people, especially the vulnerable.  Church (the body of Christ) should be about caring for other people.

2.  No, probably not.  We have eating out at a restaurant once in this whole time.  It was in June when numbers and positivity were very low in a restaurant that could only be opened to a certain percent of customers, and masks were required of all staff and any unvaccinated patrons.  But to me this is a moot point, our positivity rate is much higher than that.  The state dashboard said 99.3% yesterday for my county, thought they do say they are missing some negative test data, I also know my county has not been testing enough, and doctors refuse to test people, and so on.

3.  Yes, but we have an indoor mask mandate here.  But realistically my mask is mostly to protect other people, not myself, so if I am the only one masking it isn't doing me a whole heck of a lot of good, while others are running around spreading viruses.

I am feeling very angry this morning.  Our county coroner just had to request the county commissioners declare an emergency and bring in refrigeration trucks because we can't handle the volume of dead people.  When it was announced on social media, people are saying that the county/coroner are lying and that they don't really need it.  Truly they are just willfully ignorant.

We have a push from loud obnoxious community members to get rid of masking, people refusing to mask even with a mandate, our local commissioners meetings and city council meetings are over run by anti-maskers.  The whole thing is just crazy.  Last night a city close to my had their meeting shut down because the city manager had the police chief and officers there to enforce masking at the city council meeting.  Many city council members left so there couldn't be a quorum.  And community members are calling on our (anti-mask) sheriff to take charge of the police station.  I know him and he won't do it (I hope), and he is not a vocal anti-masker, but the idea that people see this as a great solution astounds me.

I do curbside pick-up exclusively now, we only go to doctor/dentist appointments, and meeting with a very limited number of family who are also cautious and vaccinated.

It is a similar situation here. I have started to view folks like this as "walkers" from the "Walking Dead" show. All I want to do is get away.

Our county commissioners are certifiable. They went after our county health director - whom we share with another county - and called her every kind of vicious, vile, misogynistic thing you can dream up without any consequences. She quit. They can't hire anyone. They want someone who tells them it is "the common cold, let it rip", and once prospective hires find this out, they run like the wind. Of course a few of the local docs also provide interviewees with minutes from previous meetings and screen shots of their social media, and well, let's say it doesn't leave a favorable impression to working with these a$$holes. So now we face the ramp up going into this next wave which has started with two counties that have no public health director and vaccination rates below 50% with the unmasked crowd running around like they deliberately want to infect people.

Walking Dead. That's my county.

[SKL]

50 minutes ago, regentrude said:

What other reasonable options do high risk employees have? If you're a waitress or a cashier, you don't have the privilege of working from home.

I have noticed in others of your posts that you tend to overlook the folks who have to work in these places. 

You're entitled to your personal opinion.

The science says that what we're doing, fully vaccinated, is very low risk.

I'm not interested in your opinion of me.

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

You're entitled to your personal opinion.
The science says that what we're doing, fully vaccinated, is very low risk.
I'm not interested in your opinion of me.

You did not answer my question: what "other options" were you referring to that you suggest for the high risk people?

I have no problem with you going to stores or choosing to eat in restaurants. My problem is with your statement that at-risk people have "other options". Maybe I am overlooking what those are. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by regentrude

[ktgrok]

 

50 minutes ago, cintinative said:

No, it's a whole other thread really.   He also is of the opinion that the mask mandates (which OH doesn't have anymore, but I digress), etc. are all part of slippery slope that will lead us all into communism.  It's that whole "freedom as an individual" versus "responsibility to the community" debate that we have been discussing for months. 

Would this be helfpul? https://sojo.net/articles/bible-says-wear-mask-Christians-church-coronavirus?fbclid=IwAR1ElcwFHIu0pEWNiLTZ2ZmPZlJtOhz_HstwquaMNv43bkZKOEECPn5saZo

Or this? This one is a letter discussing why he (Episcopal Bishop) is requiring masks at church - based on both making church as welcoming a place as possible even for the vulnerable and on loving one's neighbor. https://cfdiocese.org/on-requiring-face-protectors-love-of-neighbor-or-partisan-divide/

[TexasProud]

51 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Thank you. I assumed it was some internet shorthand I hadn't yet seen! 😃

Typing in car