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At what point would you lock down again?


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1 hour ago, AmandaVT said:

DH and I have been trying to figure out VT's current plan. As a state, we were so cautious in the beginning, but recently it's seemed much less so. I think our governor and health department are now of the mind that only 2% of cases are in vaccinated people, so focus on protecting kids under 12 and otherwise live life as you want. Masking in school for schools w/ students under 12 and other schools until they're at an 80% vaccination rate. Otherwise, don't worry? I think that's the message we're getting now. Deciding how I feel about it - I don't think I mind. It seems very - "you have a choice to get vaccinated, if you choose not to, it's on you." Probably only (may) work because we're more than 85% vaccinated?

 

 

Honestly I like that response. In my opinion once there are effective vaccines for the under 12 crowd and ample time for them to be vaccinated we will have to let it run its course. I have unvaccinated relatives. There is nothing you can do to change their minds (they are over 75yo so by definition high risk). I live in an area with a low vaccination rate where currently over 90+% of covid cases are the unvaccinated nearly all covid deaths and hospitalizations are unvaccinated and still the unvaccinated are not changing their minds or masking up. The vast majority of the unvaccinated are too deep into their conspiracy theories to be helped. 

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14 minutes ago, hshibley said:

Honestly I like that response. In my opinion once there are effective vaccines for the under 12 crowd and ample time for them to be vaccinated we will have to let it run its course. I have unvaccinated relatives. There is nothing you can do to change their minds (they are over 75yo so by definition high risk). I live in an area with a low vaccination rate where currently over 90+% of covid cases are the unvaccinated nearly all covid deaths and hospitalizations are unvaccinated and still the unvaccinated are not changing their minds or masking up. The vast majority of the unvaccinated are too deep into their conspiracy theories to be helped. 

And “run it’s course” and “you do you, I’ll do me” is what most of the unvaccinated folks have been asking for since the beginning.   My vaccine drops my risk of severe illness to a level I’m comfortable with.  Haven’t they been crying about everyone doing their own risk analysis?  Giving what they have been crying for does not make me a bad person. 
 

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35 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

I very much wish he had cancelled before his visit to Lincoln, NE. We live in a city nearby and school started the same week - many districts mask optional. The concert drew ~90,000 people, not a mask in sight (saw many pics). 

I anticipate an explosion of cases soon, and I made the decision to drop my needed Physical Therapy where no masks are required. 😒

 

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12 minutes ago, HeartString said:

And “run it’s course” and “you do you, I’ll do me” is what most of the unvaccinated folks have been asking for since the beginning.   My vaccine drops my risk of severe illness to a level I’m comfortable with.  Haven’t they been crying about everyone doing their own risk analysis?  Giving what they have been crying for does not make me a bad person. 
 

I agree I just would like to wait a few more months until the under 12 crowd can be vaccinated. Where I am the unvaccinated want to let it rip now and really don’t give 2 figs about the under 12’s. Yes the risk to under 12’s is low, but after the vaccine is available to them it’s significantly lower. 

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Wow. I am so glad to live in my state and especially my highly vaccinated county. Schools haven’t started yet but there is a mask mandate for schools. A new vaccination mandate for educators , bus drivers and childcare workers. (Don’t know if that includes private schools). And now a new general indoor mask mandate. People will make it political and will complain but it’s not. I just don’t understand why person can’t understand that this is being done to protect our state in multiple ways including the ability to “live life”. 

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24 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Wow. I am so glad to live in my state and especially my highly vaccinated county. Schools haven’t started yet but there is a mask mandate for schools. A new vaccination mandate for educators , bus drivers and childcare workers. (Don’t know if that includes private schools). And now a new general indoor mask mandate. People will make it political and will complain but it’s not. I just don’t understand why person can’t understand that this is being done to protect our state in multiple ways including the ability to “live life”. 

Exactly.  A mask mandate is what I would like from our governor so I could 'live life'.  With the vax effectiveness waning, I do not feel safe 'living life' with a bunch of unmasked, and possibly unvaxxed people running around in public.  

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3 hours ago, AmandaVT said:

DH and I have been trying to figure out VT's current plan. As a state, we were so cautious in the beginning, but recently it's seemed much less so. I think our governor and health department are now of the mind that only 2% of cases are in vaccinated people, so focus on protecting kids under 12 and otherwise live life as you want. Masking in school for schools w/ students under 12 and other schools until they're at an 80% vaccination rate. Otherwise, don't worry? I think that's the message we're getting now. Deciding how I feel about it - I don't think I mind. It seems very - "you have a choice to get vaccinated, if you choose not to, it's on you." Probably only (may) work because we're more than 85% vaccinated?

 

 

Is that 85% both doses or one? One isn't very effective against Delta. And since kids go more places than just schools, we shouldn't be acting like anyone who wants to can be vaccinated in stores and other public places. I had to take my 4 yr old to the laundromat today when my washer broke. Maybe 1/3 of the people work a mask, some of those didn't have it over their nose. I had her in a good filtering mask but man, we got in and out quickly. 

2 hours ago, hshibley said:

I agree I just would like to wait a few more months until the under 12 crowd can be vaccinated. Where I am the unvaccinated want to let it rip now and really don’t give 2 figs about the under 12’s. Yes the risk to under 12’s is low, but after the vaccine is available to them it’s significantly lower. 

Exactly. 

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2 hours ago, hshibley said:

I agree I just would like to wait a few more months until the under 12 crowd can be vaccinated. Where I am the unvaccinated want to let it rip now and really don’t give 2 figs about the under 12’s. Yes the risk to under 12’s is low, but after the vaccine is available to them it’s significantly lower. 

I know.  I keep getting mad, then reminding myself of the kids and the immune suppressed.  It’s just frustrating to always be in the group that needs to be extra good because so dang many people can’t be bothered.  

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1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Wow. I am so glad to live in my state and especially my highly vaccinated county. 

Same here — I am so grateful to live in the county with the highest vax rate in the state, in a state where masks are mandated in all indoor spaces. DS decided on Sunday he wanted to go shopping for clothes and shoes before flying back to college on Monday, and we didn't see a single person without a mask. I've also been to Home Depot, Trader Joe's, and an Asian grocery store in the past week, and there was 100% masking everywhere.

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Same here — I am so grateful to live in the county with the highest vax rate in the state, in a state where masks are mandated in all indoor spaces. DS decided on Sunday he wanted to go shopping for clothes and shoes before flying back to college on Monday, and we didn't see a single person without a mask. I've also been to Home Depot, Trader Joe's, and an Asian grocery store in the past week, and there was 100% masking everywhere.

How wonderful that would be.

I am really limiting personal errands, but I often have to do errands for my job. I was the only person masked in the bank and the post office today. Last week, it was mandatory masking in the post office, but all of the signs were down today and the 8 people in line and the 2 clerks were all unmasked. Walmart yesterday was maybe 25% masked (mostly the employees and not the customers - maybe 5? customers). Aldi last week had just the employees and me masked. 

Vax rate here is just shy of 50%, so I'd feel a lot better (for my kid with POTS and my lung transplant uncle anyway) if I saw masks everywhere.

The governor did make school masking mandatory though. Local school district does not have a virtual option this year, but they're say they are going to suspend kids if they show up 2x with no mask and/or refuse to wear one that is provided. My local state representative is calling to impeach the governor and is leading the "Unmask the Children" protests however.

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28 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

How wonderful that would be.

I am really limiting personal errands, but I often have to do errands for my job. I was the only person masked in the bank and the post office today. Last week, it was mandatory masking in the post office, but all of the signs were down today and the 8 people in line and the 2 clerks were all unmasked. Walmart yesterday was maybe 25% masked (mostly the employees and not the customers - maybe 5? customers). Aldi last week had just the employees and me masked. 

Vax rate here is just shy of 50%, so I'd feel a lot better (for my kid with POTS and my lung transplant uncle anyway) if I saw masks everywhere.

The governor did make school masking mandatory though. Local school district does not have a virtual option this year, but they're say they are going to suspend kids if they show up 2x with no mask and/or refuse to wear one that is provided. My local state representative is calling to impeach the governor and is leading the "Unmask the Children" protests however.

Kind of an aside, but I need to know: does POTS make Covid higher risk? Do I have to add this to our list of risk factors in this house? Oy.

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Just now, Spryte said:

Kind of an aside, but I need to know: does POTS make Covid higher risk? Do I have to add this to our list of risk factors in this house? Oy.

DD's doctor says that POTS doesn't make Covid worse, but Covid can make POTS much worse. We just got DD somewhat stabilized from passing out daily, so we really don't want to go back to that. Doctor recommended the vaccine for DD as soon as she could get it (she's in that 12-17 age group, so was in that last group to be approved). 

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20 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

DD's doctor says that POTS doesn't make Covid worse, but Covid can make POTS much worse. We just got DD somewhat stabilized from passing out daily, so we really don't want to go back to that. Doctor recommended the vaccine for DD as soon as she could get it (she's in that 12-17 age group, so was in that last group to be approved). 

Oh, that completely makes sense, thank you.  

POTS is miserable.  So glad your DD is a bit better, daily passing out is … oh boy.  Just miserable.  I passed out at least once a year from my 10th birthday till sometime in my late 30s, thank goodness for the doc that finally figured it out!

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4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Is that 85% both doses or one? One isn't very effective against Delta. And since kids go more places than just schools, we shouldn't be acting like anyone who wants to can be vaccinated in stores and other public places. I had to take my 4 yr old to the laundromat today when my washer broke. Maybe 1/3 of the people work a mask, some of those didn't have it over their nose. I had her in a good filtering mask but man, we got in and out quickly. 

Exactly. 

Looking at the vaccine dashboard, it looks like 85.2% have had their 1st vaccine and 93% of those people have also had a second dose (if I did my math correctly).

1836539673_ScreenShot2021-08-19at5_34_07PM.png.69c71b331551d76abc3707b2fe4b81e7.png

 

 

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1 hour ago, historically accurate said:

DD's doctor says that POTS doesn't make Covid worse, but Covid can make POTS much worse. We just got DD somewhat stabilized from passing out daily, so we really don't want to go back to that. Doctor recommended the vaccine for DD as soon as she could get it (she's in that 12-17 age group, so was in that last group to be approved). 

Did he cite a particular study or stance by an organization? Someone I know was looking for this information earlier in the pandemic and might still need it. Her daughter’s doctor is convinced her daughter’s POTS is from getting the HPB vaccine, so they are skittish about her getting the vaccine (but I think other family members have gotten it).

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Just now, ieta_cassiopeia said:

Does that mean there are 29 non-ICU beds being used as ICU beds, or 29 people who need an ICU bed who cannot get a bed at all?

The article said they are currently being treated "in other areas of hospitals." 

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9 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Did he cite a particular study or stance by an organization? Someone I know was looking for this information earlier in the pandemic and might still need it. Her daughter’s doctor is convinced her daughter’s POTS is from getting the HPB vaccine, so they are skittish about her getting the vaccine (but I think other family members have gotten it).

Didn't cite anything to me, but I was leaning toward vaccine anyway, so didn't really need to be convinced. 

Potsibilities Parents group on FB has a Covid area for questions though. That might be a place for them to ask. 

 

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10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Did he cite a particular study or stance by an organization? Someone I know was looking for this information earlier in the pandemic and might still need it. Her daughter’s doctor is convinced her daughter’s POTS is from getting the HPB vaccine, so they are skittish about her getting the vaccine (but I think other family members have gotten it).

John Hopkins Medicine states that COVID can make POTS worse - temporarily, but when "worse" means "daily passing out", definitely wise to stay far away from COVID. There's a study trying to find out more about potential links, but it could be a while before we get definitive answers.

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On 8/18/2021 at 12:41 PM, popmom said:

This will be a catastrophe. Nursing homes have a terrible time keeping adequate staff as it is.

Early on in the pandemic, I initially thought it would only work if it was a federal, or at least state, mandate because otherwise workers would just move to a different nursing home that didn’t require vaccines. But it seems that nursing homes who have already done this found that the number who quit to be much lower than expected.

https://www.newsweek.com/uss-largest-nursing-home-chain-tells-employees-get-covid-vaccine-fired-1616328

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On 8/18/2021 at 12:52 PM, regentrude said:

What is is with chiropractors??? My chiro practice never required masks in the office, neither for staff nor patients.
Another chiro was the leader of the local anti-mask protests.

In my state, among healthcare workers, chiropractors and chiropractor assistants currently have the lowest vaccination rates. Of course now they are going to be required, so that will change.

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On 8/19/2021 at 5:22 AM, regentrude said:

What is is with chiropractors??? My chiro practice never required masks in the office, neither for staff nor patients.
Another chiro was the leader of the local anti-mask protests.

Many chiros here are anti vaccination.  I think there must be something about how the immune system works that they have weird ideas about or something.

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9 hours ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

Does that mean there are 29 non-ICU beds being used as ICU beds, or 29 people who need an ICU bed who cannot get a bed at all?

They are in emergency departments, as per NYT article.

Blocking emergency department beds.  Fewer beds available to provide emergency care to incoming patients in the department. Who will then get cared for in "non-traditional patient care spaces", AKA chairs in hallways, waiting rooms, alcoves, closets ,etc,  by staff who are run off their feet trying to manage the bed-spaced inpatients as well as the never ending stream of incoming ED patients.  This is my life. Working in a bed-blocked ED is very un-fun.

ETA - I'm not in Alabama.  I'm in chronically bed-blocked ED elsewhere.

Edited by wathe
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3 hours ago, wathe said:

They are in emergency departments, as per NYT article.

Blocking emergency department beds.  Fewer beds available to provide emergency care to incoming patients in the department. Who will then get cared for in "non-traditional patient care spaces", AKA chairs in hallways, waiting rooms, alcoves, closets ,etc,  by staff who are run off their feet trying to manage the bed-spaced inpatients as well as the never ending stream of incoming ED patients.  This is my life. Working in a bed-blocked ED is very un-fun.

ETA - I'm not in Alabama.  I'm in chronically bed-blocked ED elsewhere.

Yup. I’m on the last few hours of my shift and have transported patients to multiple hospitals in my area. All of them have bed delays for EMS; all of them are full; all have ICU holds; several ERs are having to utilize hall beds (not actually that unusual for ERs here), closets, showers, and - for one ER - the decontamination shower/room. The ERs, having been reminded that diversion is a request, not a mandate, and if two hospitals go on diversion then no one is on diversion, are now rotating 4 hour “full diversions”. 

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Why Anti-Covid Plastic Barriers in Classrooms and Restaurants May Make Things Worse - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

Intuition tells us a plastic shield would be protective against germs. But scientists who study aerosols, air flow and ventilation say that much of the time, the barriers don’t help and probably give people a false sense of security. And sometimes the barriers can make things worse.

Research suggests that in some instances, a barrier protecting a clerk behind a checkout counter may redirect the germs to another worker or customer. Rows of clear plastic shields, like those you might find in a nail salon or classroom, can also impede normal air flow and ventilation.

Under normal conditions in stores, classrooms and offices, exhaled breath particles disperse, carried by air currents and, depending on the ventilation system, are replaced by fresh air roughly every 15 to 30 minutes. But erecting plastic barriers can change air flow in a room, disrupt normal ventilation and create “dead zones,” where viral aerosol particles can build up and become highly concentrated.

Edited by mommyoffive
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6 hours ago, brehon said:

Yup. I’m on the last few hours of my shift and have transported patients to multiple hospitals in my area. All of them have bed delays for EMS; all of them are full; all have ICU holds; several ERs are having to utilize hall beds (not actually that unusual for ERs here), closets, showers, and - for one ER - the decontamination shower/room. The ERs, having been reminded that diversion is a request, not a mandate, and if two hospitals go on diversion then no one is on diversion, are now rotating 4 hour “full diversions”. 

No such thing as diversion here - the next nearest hospital is too far away.  We just have to suck it up and cope.

 

ETA;  I wish we could divert.  but then we'd be in diversion all the time.  We have. permanent "Ambulance Off-Load" nursing assignment.

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1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I can’t see the article (paywall). Can you just tell me in a sentence why it makes things worse?  

They block normal air circulation and can create "dead zones" where viral particles could build up.

Very dependent on airflow in the particular room, so no way to know if yours are helping or hurting without an airflow analysis.

 

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3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I can’t see the article (paywall). Can you just tell me in a sentence why it makes things worse?  

"Under normal conditions in stores, classrooms and offices, exhaled breath particles disperse, carried by air currents and, depending on the ventilation system, are replaced by fresh air roughly every 15 to 30 minutes. But erecting plastic barriers can change air flow in a room, disrupt normal ventilation and create “dead zones,” where viral aerosol particles can build up and become highly concentrated."

It also says it may just direct the air to another coworker or customer.

 

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27 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

"Under normal conditions in stores, classrooms and offices, exhaled breath particles disperse, carried by air currents and, depending on the ventilation system, are replaced by fresh air roughly every 15 to 30 minutes. But erecting plastic barriers can change air flow in a room, disrupt normal ventilation and create “dead zones,” where viral aerosol particles can build up and become highly concentrated."

It also says it may just direct the air to another coworker or customer.

Makes sense. 
The idea of the barriers stems from when the main transmission mechanism was thought to be droplets. The understanding that the virus is airborne changes the equation. (Just like I would never again teach with just a face shield, as we had originally been required to, a year ago)
 

 

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49 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Why Anti-Covid Plastic Barriers in Classrooms and Restaurants May Make Things Worse - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

Intuition tells us a plastic shield would be protective against germs. But scientists who study aerosols, air flow and ventilation say that much of the time, the barriers don’t help and probably give people a false sense of security. And sometimes the barriers can make things worse.

Research suggests that in some instances, a barrier protecting a clerk behind a checkout counter may redirect the germs to another worker or customer. Rows of clear plastic shields, like those you might find in a nail salon or classroom, can also impede normal air flow and ventilation.

Under normal conditions in stores, classrooms and offices, exhaled breath particles disperse, carried by air currents and, depending on the ventilation system, are replaced by fresh air roughly every 15 to 30 minutes. But erecting plastic barriers can change air flow in a room, disrupt normal ventilation and create “dead zones,” where viral aerosol particles can build up and become highly concentrated.

This is one of the things that has frustrated me about how slowly information is responded to during such a fluid situation as this is. I’ve been reading this since last summer, yet still I see those darn barriers everywhere. It’s the same as how it was clear that the virus was airborne for months and months and months before it was finally officially acknowledged and treated that way.

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Back to the topic of should you lock down if you have young kids? Look at this - holy crap! And yeah...lock down if you can. This picture comes from the Broken Arrow, OK schools. Broken Arrow was discussed upthread. Someone at their school board meeting said something like, " so a few teachers die..."

 

I guess I should feel better about my kid's school. 

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12 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Back to the topic of should you lock down if you have young kids? Look at this - holy crap! And yeah...lock down if you can. This picture comes from the Broken Arrow, OK schools. Broken Arrow was discussed upthread. Someone at their school board meeting said something like, " so a few teachers die..."

 

I guess I should feel better about my kid's school. 

I’m surprised that they’re posting kid pictures on social media at all.  When I volunteered in elementary schools part of the training was that you don’t post pictures of anyone’s kids except your own.  We took pictures, because I was mostly there for special events, but they were posted on the teacher’s closed web page that only parents of that class had access to. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Danae said:

I’m surprised that they’re posting kid pictures on social media at all.  When I volunteered in elementary schools part of the training was that you don’t post pictures of anyone’s kids except your own.  We took pictures, because I was mostly there for special events, but they were posted on the teacher’s closed web page that only parents of that class had access to. 

 

 

I wondered about that. I hesitated to share it but saw that it came from the public school district. My daughter's school sometimes posts pictures of children on social media. Parents are allowed to opt their kids out of any publicly shared pictures. 

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12 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Many chiros here are anti vaccination.  I think there must be something about how the immune system works that they have weird ideas about or something.

Many here are as well, so I imagine this varies by location. My old chiropractor would not mask when mandated. My new one does. Both believe in elderberries, IIRC. The new chiro is no longer masking since it's not required anymore, but I suspect he had Covid. He was out sick for a couple of weeks during timing that would be suspect for Covid here. He was really careful to be sure he was fully well before he came back to protect his patients. That's really broad-minded for a chiro here. 

 

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I just read that the mayor of Orlando is pleading for residents to dramatically cut back on water as the city needs to divert liquid oxygen from water purification purposes and towards keeping Covid patients alive as Delta rages in the Sunshine State.

Bill

 

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1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

I just read that the mayor of Orlando is pleading for residents to dramatically cut back on water as the city needs to divert liquid oxygen from water purification purposes and towards keeping Covid patients alive as Delta rages in the Sunshine State.

Bill

 

Yup. 

It's fine....you know....we have converted libraries to medical centers, EMS says they don't have enough amublances so try not to call them, and now we may not have drinking water. Third world country status, here we come!

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5 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I just read that the mayor of Orlando is pleading for residents to dramatically cut back on water as the city needs to divert liquid oxygen from water purification purposes and towards keeping Covid patients alive as Delta rages in the Sunshine State.

Unbelievable. I am adding a link, so that nobody starts arguing that you made that up.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2021/08/20/covid-water-crisis-orlando-urges-residents-to-conserve-water-amid-liquid-oxygen-shortage/?sh=6f4a95616e84

Yesterday I saw the most macabre meme:
Florida: Come for the sunshine, stay for the ventilator.

Edited by regentrude
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“Orlando, Florida, officials urged residents on Friday to shorten their showers and stop watering their cars due to the city running short on the liquid oxygen“

 

I will take humor where I can get it these days. If they would just stop watering their cars, they should be able to improve the situation. LOL

Typos tend to grate on me, but this one made me giggle.

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4 minutes ago, Kakids said:

“Orlando, Florida, officials urged residents on Friday to shorten their showers and stop watering their cars due to the city running short on the liquid oxygen“

I will take humor where I can get it these days. If they would just stop watering their cars, they should be able to improve the situation. LOL

Oh, so that's how you do it! Buy a mini and water it until it grows into a pickup truck. Thanks for the chuckle. Totally gallows humor. If we don't laugh, we can only cry.

Edited by regentrude
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