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At what point would you lock down again?


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28 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I guess as a patient who believed the signs, it shows that I really am not the type of person it is addressing. . .   (Especially since I wouldn't be violent to begin with).

Yeah, I guess maybe they are there for the in-between patients who are both lucid enough to understand the sign and mean enough to need a warning.

Or maybe it's CYA in case a medical professional or hospital gets sued for backing off or calling the cops on a dangerously out-of-control patient.

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Where I am from, my step-mom worked up until about 15 years ago at a hospital that was known for having difficult patients.  There were other hospitals that might kick out a patient, but her hospital would not.  
 

It was a state hospital and not a private hospital, and it somehow took more people without health insurance that other hospitals wouldn’t take, and it had the highest level of care for a lot of things and got more bad accidents or mentally ill patients who would be sent there because they had the highest level of care.

 

It was known for being rough and also for having excellent care, and for being a place someone might transfer to if they had more serious health issues.  
 

My step-mom worked in a lab and not directly with patients, though.

 

She would hear about patients’ relatives getting really upset if things weren’t going well and attacking staff, that seemed like it was a big concern.  Sometimes security guards would walk people to their cars because they had been threatened by a patient’s relatives. 

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I’m not sure where to post this, but I’m vaccinated and traveled last week to a location in the south where it appeared covid didn’t exist😀 No one was masked. I traveled with a group that was vaccinated but we ate inside 3 nights, and had a 5 hour delay in the airport. I didn’t mask in the restaurants. Wore my happy mask in the airport and on the plane. Tested negative today! 
Very excited as this was planned before delta hit and I was pretty anxious about the whole thing. 
 

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14 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I guess as a patient who believed the signs, it shows that I really am not the type of person it is addressing. . .   (Especially since I wouldn't be violent to begin with).

I would think not!  Lol.
The best “targets” for these policies are your giant, but not impaired, jerk faces, for lack of a better word that fits the board rules.  
Patients who are mentally unstable, substance impaired, etc. still need to be treated for their health crisis as best as possible.

My daughter seems to prefer the patients who are incapable of controlling themselves to the people who are just violent, nasty jerks who get physical out of anger. I’ve been trying to get her to tame down her stories for me!
 

None of it is good, of course.
 

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Though we are hunkered down now until ds leaves for his college dorms, I do want to get a bunch of veggies and fruits into my freezer for winter so I am going to a large produce stand, entirely outdoors, today. I am wearing a surgical mask under my cloth mask and have picked what the owners describe as a low time to go. Ds and dh are going fishing on Sunday to a rather remote, inland lake that is not likely to have anyone else there and if it does, that person is probably a DNR officer. So it should be just fine in terms of covid exposure.

 

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17 hours ago, wathe said:

We supposedly have zero tolerance for violence and harassment, and abuse  complete with signs.  It’s bull.

1). You don’t know it’s going to happen until it happens 

2). Violence and harassment and abuse are part some patients’ presentations : intoxication, dementia, psychosis, even personality disorders, and just the stress of being in an overcrowded emergency department.  Nobody is at their best.  We can’t refuse care to people who are medically unstable, and to evaluate medical stability, you have to assess the patient.

zero tolerance policies look good  on paper, but are actually impossible in EDs.

This.  Plus even if a hospital has a psychiatric unit that isn’t full they don’t take them unless all medical issues are stable first.  I took a job in insurance because I got severely injured by a patient. I recovered but my family didn’t want me to risk going back. Claims departments love nursing experience. 

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1 minute ago, lewelma said:

Given what you know, would you guys send an 11 year old who lives in Michigan to school this fall? My sister has a hard decision coming up.

That's such a difficult decision and impossible without knowing the kid.
Can he be homeschooled? Can somebody be home with him to supervise schooling? Is he high risk? Did he suffer mentally from the online schooling and lack of contact during lockdown?
Many things to weigh against each other; I don't think there is a blanket answer.

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6 hours ago, regentrude said:

That's such a difficult decision and impossible without knowing the kid.
Can he be homeschooled? Can somebody be home with him to supervise schooling? Is he high risk? Did he suffer mentally from the online schooling and lack of contact during lockdown?
Many things to weigh against each other; I don't think there is a blanket answer.

Please don't quote: deleted

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It seems to me that delta will rip through the schools of unvaccinated kids. Is there any reason to think that this will not be true?  I'm thinking if you are unvaccinated and in school you will get it.

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13 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Given what you know, would you guys send an 11 year old who lives in Michigan to school this fall? My sister has a hard decision coming up.

I think that is hard to know. Michigan is a big state so knowing the region might be helpful. Some counties have done very, very well and if the schools are requiring masks would probably be okay. But if we are talking about Macomb County or Genessee, Bay and Saginaw County, Kalamazoo County,....numerous others, then I think it is a bit risky. You can look at the state covid dashboard and look up each county's vaccination rate which might be helpful. Chances are if it is a high rate, the schools will be proactive about precautions and has a staff that is vaxed at a high rate. Then there is my county. 38%. And a bunch of parents are protesting at the school against masks. I wouldn't send a kid to any school district in this county.

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44 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I think that is hard to know. Michigan is a big state so knowing the region might be helpful.

Please don't quote: deleted.

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9 minutes ago, lewelma said:

It seems to me that delta will rip through the schools of unvaccinated kids. Is there any reason to think that this will not be true?  I'm thinking if you are unvaccinated and in school you will get it.

I think it's hard to say, but that we'll know soon because a lot of schools in the south have already started. How soon does she need to decide? Last year in my area numbers stayed relatively low in schools with mask mandates and other precautions. In schools without them numbers were definitely higher, but I still didn't see situations where whole classrooms were getting sick (it was more small clusters of cases; when there were large outbreaks it was generally associated with indoor sports or with parties outside of school). But all bets are off with Delta, of course. I'll say that I just saw numbers on three metro Atlanta counties from their first week--all are reporting well over 100 cases the first week...but this week isn't the week when we'll see whether it's SPREADING in classrooms. 

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My county health department just mandated masking in K-12 schools, child care programs, and preschools. I'm glad-only one of the local districts had done so, and especially in preschools and elementary schools, seems even more necessary this fall than last year. It also means that even if it isn't mandated at my center, few parents or kids are likely to object because the kids are used to it. 

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2 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I think it's hard to say, but that we'll know soon because a lot of schools in the south have already started. How soon does she need to decide? Last year in my area numbers stayed relatively low in schools with mask mandates and other precautions. In schools without them numbers were definitely higher, but I still didn't see situations where whole classrooms were getting sick (it was more small clusters of cases; when there were large outbreaks it was generally associated with indoor sports or with parties outside of school). But all bets are off with Delta, of course. I'll say that I just saw numbers on three metro Atlanta counties from their first week--all are reporting well over 100 cases the first week...but this week isn't the week when we'll see whether it's SPREADING in classrooms. 

Marion, AR, which is a pretty small community, had over 400 kids and teachers on quarantine within the first week, due to confirmed cases and no masking. It's bad enough that the governor has actually called for rolling back the state law that banned mask mandates. 

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9 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I would think not!  Lol.
The best “targets” for these policies are your giant, but not impaired, jerk faces, for lack of a better word that fits the board rules.  
Patients who are mentally unstable, substance impaired, etc. still need to be treated for their health crisis as best as possible.

My daughter seems to prefer the patients who are incapable of controlling themselves to the people who are just violent, nasty jerks who get physical out of anger. I’ve been trying to get her to tame down her stories for me!
 

None of it is good, of course.
 

I don’t tell my mom much—and I’m almost 40. She still worries. She was an RN but never worked ER or psych.  My dad has been in EMS since the early 1970s and has a pretty good idea what my life is like.  He was actually on a call with the fire department once(I was on the ambulance crew) where a patient punched me In the face.  He went from EMT mode to Dad mode in 0.25 seconds flat. 

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Lewelma, I think it is a bit of a crapshoot. Red zones for the city itself and just around it like a certain university in a little town just west of there. But some of the outlying school districts are much lower numbers. A lot is going to depend on mask requirements and how much delta amps up between now and Labor Day.

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47 minutes ago, lewelma said:

It seems to me that delta will rip through the schools of unvaccinated kids. Is there any reason to think that this will not be true?  I'm thinking if you are unvaccinated and in school you will get it.

It has not happened in Singapore. The students are all masking. My niece is in primary 4 so I have a vested interest in their data.

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59 minutes ago, lewelma said:

It seems to me that delta will rip through the schools of unvaccinated kids. Is there any reason to think that this will not be true?  I'm thinking if you are unvaccinated and in school you will get it.

Our county is recommending masking of the kids in school, so none of the school are requiring masks at this point in time.  Even the CC has announced they have no covid precautions in place.  I don't see it going well if last year is any indication, and they were all masked then.  I was hoping it would change before school started, but the pushback is so strong I'm not sure it will happen.

Edited by melmichigan
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Here in NC there is a provision in the guidelines for schools that if someone tests positive, if they masked correctly and consistently and the other kids did too, the exposed kids do not have to  quarantine. That fact alone - even if you think masks don’t work - should be enough to make masking a no brainer. Well… one would think anyway… 🙄

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NJ just reinstated the mask mandates for all K-12 schools.   It means we are getting another surge of people joining the local homeschool groups but I'm very glad it was announced so early (we don't start until after Labor Day).  I'm reinstituting masks for my remaining summer camps (next week, then a week off and the final camp), in addition to requiring them in September.  Most of my students registered when we had one before and I've had around 50% masking for my last two camps when we didn't have one.  

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1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I don’t tell my mom much—and I’m almost 40. She still worries. She was an RN but never worked ER or psych.  My dad has been in EMS since the early 1970s and has a pretty good idea what my life is like.  He was actually on a call with the fire department once(I was on the ambulance crew) where a patient punched me In the face.  He went from EMT mode to Dad mode in 0.25 seconds flat. 

OMG, I can only imagine! Thank goodness dh and dd don’t usually cover the same area. (Though now I’m going to think about this anytime she takes a shift in a mutual aid region, lol.)

DD’s first real patient *as a student* was a combative naked guy on heroin.  Now she’s moving from BLS to ALS at her main job and I don’t want to think about it.   A little more on topic, at least that means fewer COVID transports!

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1 hour ago, cabercro said:

Here in NC there is a provision in the guidelines for schools that if someone tests positive, if they masked correctly and consistently and the other kids did too, the exposed kids do not have to  quarantine. That fact alone - even if you think masks don’t work - should be enough to make masking a no brainer. Well… one would think anyway… 🙄

In TX, schools are not allowed to require masks. If a student is positive, they need to stay home. Per the TEA guidelines, close contacts may choose to stay home (read: are not required to stay home) and anyone who has been vaccinated isn't considered a close contact.

https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/covid/SY-20-21-Public-Health-Guidance.pdf

 

New TEA Guidelines

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7 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

In TX, schools are not allowed to require masks. If a student is positive, they need to stay home. Per the TEA guidelines, close contacts may choose to stay home (read: are not required to stay home) and anyone who has been vaccinated isn't considered a close contact.

https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/covid/SY-20-21-Public-Health-Guidance.pdf

 

New TEA Guidelines

Yeah, our Austin friends are NOT happy 😕 . 

 

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35 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

In TX, schools are not allowed to require masks. If a student is positive, they need to stay home. Per the TEA guidelines, close contacts may choose to stay home (read: are not required to stay home) and anyone who has been vaccinated isn't considered a close contact.

https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/covid/SY-20-21-Public-Health-Guidance.pdf

 

New TEA Guidelines

I just. I don't have words. Wow!

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55 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

OMG, I can only imagine! Thank goodness dh and dd don’t usually cover the same area. (Though now I’m going to think about this anytime she takes a shift in a mutual aid region, lol.)

DD’s first real patient *as a student* was a combative naked guy on heroin.  Now she’s moving from BLS to ALS at her main job and I don’t want to think about it.   A little more on topic, at least that means fewer COVID transports!

I didn't know this before dd served as an ALS medic, but apparently there are a lot of "get up in the morning, take clothes off for shower, sit on the toilet, have a heart attack" kind of events. So ya. 

Out here a lot of the covid are going by ALS because our little hospital can't do much, and folks tend to wait way too long to seek help so they just have to be turfed to the city anyway and are in rather bad shape when they finally go. I feel so bad for our EMS staff.

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46 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

In TX, schools are not allowed to require masks. If a student is positive, they need to stay home. Per the TEA guidelines, close contacts may choose to stay home (read: are not required to stay home) and anyone who has been vaccinated isn't considered a close contact.

https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/covid/SY-20-21-Public-Health-Guidance.pdf

 

New TEA Guidelines

Yeah my oldest and I were talking about this.  Just no words.  As I put on the other thread, one of our counties has 13 percent vaccinated in ages 16-55.

 

I am trying to stay positive. But…

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So, my county decided to stop being idiots and is doing a 30 day mask mandate for schools, but per the state requirement from DeSantis the parents can opt out. That is done via a note from the parent, so at least it puts the onus on the parent do be bothered to do that. And keeps kids from just saying, "but my mom says I don't have to!". Hopefully if a majority of kids are masking the peer pressure will be enough for some others who otherwise wouldn't have. 

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2 hours ago, melmichigan said:

Our county is recommending masking of the kids in school, so none of the school are requiring masks at this point in time.  Even the CC has announced they have no covid precautions in place.  I don't see it going well if last year is any indication, and they were all masked then.  I was hoping it would change before school started, but the pushback is so strong I'm not sure it will happen.

I am seeing the same thing on my side of the state. I was hopeful when the CDC recommendations came out last week, but both the state and local health departments are only strongly recommending masking. Individual districts can mandate, but it looks like the ones around me (including the one where I work) won't 😞

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3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

So, my county decided to stop being idiots and is doing a 30 day mask mandate for schools, but per the state requirement from DeSantis the parents can opt out. That is done via a note from the parent, so at least it puts the onus on the parent do be bothered to do that. And keeps kids from just saying, "but my mom says I don't have to!". Hopefully if a majority of kids are masking the peer pressure will be enough for some others who otherwise wouldn't have. 

I sure wish Abbott would allow this in Texas, but he's been very clear that any entity accepting state funds may not mandate masks. Even making parents opt out would be better than what we have now.

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6 hours ago, Arcadia said:

It has not happened in Singapore. The students are all masking. My niece is in primary 4 so I have a vested interest in their data.

That sounds really encouraging, but then looking at Singapore's Covid data, they have so few cases right now anyway, that the chances of a student getting it would be low. If we were in that situation, I would feel totally different about Fall.

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25 minutes ago, KSera said:

That sounds really encouraging, but then looking at Singapore's Covid data, they have so few cases right now anyway, that the chances of a student getting it would be low. If we were in that situation, I would feel totally different about Fall.

Its not that low currently.

“As of 6 Aug 2021, 12pm, there are 93 new cases of locally transmitted COVID-19 infection and 4 imported cases. 546 cases are currently in hospital: most are well and under observation, 38 require oxygen supplementation, 7 are in in ICU.”

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/parenting-education/129-students-17-school-staff-have-tested-positive-for-covid-19-in-the

“SINGAPORE - Over the last three months, 129 students and 17 school staff have tested positive for Covid-19.

This is about 0.03 per cent of the total student population from primary to pre-university levels, said Education Minister Chan Chun Sing in a Facebook post on Friday (July 30).”

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10 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

That's my home county - born and raised. My oldest son was born at St. Mary's hospital which they mention. 

Edit: And I knew Dr. Schectman seemed familiar - I took my son to that practice! We normally saw another doctor, but we saw him as well. 

Now I'm homesick as well as worried about covid. I have vivid memories of the Palm Beach Post being on the counter in the morning...seeing my dad drinking his coffee and reading it. Later, when I was older, i read it daily as well. 

8 hours ago, wilrunner said:

I sure wish Abbott would allow this in Texas, but he's been very clear that any entity accepting state funds may not mandate masks. Even making parents opt out would be better than what we have now.

I think we are getting around it because if you can opt out, it's not technically a mandate. 

Edited by ktgrok
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I feel for those who live in Florida. Dh’s office is in Jacksonville, but we moved to another state years ago and he now works from home. Almost everyone he works with has said Jax is just on fire right now and so many of them and their families have/had it even though they were vaccinated. His office had only opened back up for two weeks, and only to those vaccinated, when it hit there. None have needed medical attention so that’s good but they all sound so miserable being in FL right now. If we still lived there, I don’t think we’d be leaving the house for anything vaccinated or not. 

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7 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Its not that low currently.

“As of 6 Aug 2021, 12pm, there are 93 new cases of locally transmitted COVID-19 infection and 4 imported cases. 546 cases are currently in hospital: most are well and under observation, 38 require oxygen supplementation, 7 are in in ICU.”

 

1.7 daily new cases per 100K population is low compared to anywhere in the US. No US state is at less than 7 per 100K.  Florida is at 132.

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27 minutes ago, Danae said:

1.7 daily new cases per 100K population is low compared to anywhere in the US. No US state is at less than 7 per 100K.  Florida is at 132.

Yeah, if we got rates down that low I'd be out licking doorknobs, lol. (not really, but I'd be not worried about masking as a vaccinated person, and I'd be able to do homeschool field trips, get a massage, etc. Life would be normal at that rate)

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56 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

I feel for those who live in Florida. Dh’s office is in Jacksonville, but we moved to another state years ago and he now works from home. Almost everyone he works with has said Jax is just on fire right now and so many of them and their families have/had it even though they were vaccinated. His office had only opened back up for two weeks, and only to those vaccinated, when it hit there. None have needed medical attention so that’s good but they all sound so miserable being in FL right now. If we still lived there, I don’t think we’d be leaving the house for anything vaccinated or not. 

Did anyone get particularly sick?

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23 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Yeah, if we got rates down that low I'd be out licking doorknobs, lol. (not really, but I'd be not worried about masking as a vaccinated person, and I'd be able to do homeschool field trips, get a massage, etc. Life would be normal at that rate)

Seriously.  When our state was down that low (just a few weeks ago!), I was out pretty much doing normal stuff.  Yes, I was masking indoors and only eating outside in restaurants, but going to my indoor fitness classes and no longer worrying about minimizing grocery store trips and visting with vaccinated friends and family indoors with no mask.

Now we're up from a low of 0.9/100K to over 14/100K - in just a few weeks.  I do not like this trend.  Back to Zoom meetings, porch/patio visits only even with vaxxed folk, bye in-person fitness classes... SIGH.

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6 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Seriously.  When our state was down that low (just a few weeks ago!), I was out pretty much doing normal stuff.  Yes, I was masking indoors and only eating outside in restaurants, but going to my indoor fitness classes and no longer worrying about minimizing grocery store trips and visting with vaccinated friends and family indoors with no mask.

Now we're up from a low of 0.9/100K to over 14/100K - in just a few weeks.  I do not like this trend.  Back to Zoom meetings, porch/patio visits only even with vaxxed folk, bye in-person fitness classes... SIGH.

We're at like three times as much in Manhattan at this point 😕 . I'm still trying to figure out whether we should continue our co-op playdates or not. They are outside and masked at this point, but they are long-term interactions, and some of the people aren't vaccinated 😕 

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20 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Seriously.  When our state was down that low (just a few weeks ago!), I was out pretty much doing normal stuff.  Yes, I was masking indoors and only eating outside in restaurants, but going to my indoor fitness classes and no longer worrying about minimizing grocery store trips and visting with vaccinated friends and family indoors with no mask.

Now we're up from a low of 0.9/100K to over 14/100K - in just a few weeks.  I do not like this trend.  Back to Zoom meetings, porch/patio visits only even with vaxxed folk, bye in-person fitness classes... SIGH.

Yeah, I think the lowest we got was about 10/100K and I was not masking indoors everywhere anymore (only took it off at hair cut place vaccinated), was planning to go back to outdoor homeschool outings. 

Now...10 times that. 

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On 8/5/2021 at 12:52 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

Just picking one quote out of the many because I don't want to multi-quote:  in local  hospitals there are signs up saying that care will be refused to violent patients or they will be prosecuted (I assume based on the need for care and the extent of violence - if it's just verbal or physical etc.   Is this not the case everywhere? 

I have never seen that sign.  I do know that I have been in scary hospital situations - from gang members gathering, to prisoners to mental patients.  

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On 8/5/2021 at 3:09 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

I’m sorry. My dh no longer does direct patient care because it was so stressful. (As unit manager he got it from both patients and staff). 

My son, was very happy to no longer deal with patients in person because of the threats he received.  He is even happier now that at  his new work in an online pharmacy benefits company (since last September), he got promoted and is no longer doing customer service except if there is a rush of customers and not enough CS people.  He is now doing doing higher level administrative duties including some tech work and he is so happy.

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16 hours ago, cabercro said:

Here in NC there is a provision in the guidelines for schools that if someone tests positive, if they masked correctly and consistently and the other kids did too, the exposed kids do not have to  quarantine. That fact alone - even if you think masks don’t work - should be enough to make masking a no brainer. Well… one would think anyway… 🙄

That was why the two main cities in my county school boards decided to require masks - because of the large amount of kids needing to be quarantined if not wearing masks.

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6 hours ago, Danae said:

1.7 daily new cases per 100K population is low compared to anywhere in the US. No US state is at less than 7 per 100K.  Florida is at 132.

Its all perspective. There were 42 students affected spread across 29 schools. Singapore is a very densely populated and very small country. There is fear by parents of community spread especially with the news that vaccinated cases are likely to be asymptomatic. People are asking for home based learning to be allowed again. The government has said they have switch from pandemic mode to endemic mode.

Edited by Arcadia
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