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At what point would you lock down again?


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7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Those numbers for Pfizer came from Scotland (79%) and England (88%), and they excluded the data from Israel (64%) & Singapore (69%). Israel and Singapore may have included some cases that were asymptomatic, but it seems a little deceptive to only include the highest possible stats and leave out the much lower ones.

Yes I saw that mentioned in the comments I think but the Israel and Singapore data may have been more recent

 

NPR for what it’s worth had a segment on possible declining immunity after six months with Pfizer.  I’m trying to find where the info was coming from.  It’s possible that there’s still the memory cell immunity but it’s too slow to kick in? 

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36 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

I think maybe because the thead title is "at what point would YOU lock down again?" many of us answered in relation to OUR OWN particular circumstances.  In *my* circumstances, I don't foresee locking down again unless a variant beats the vaccine.

Your family obviously has its own particular circumstances.  Had you asked "if you had kids too young to be vaxxed, how would you approach the Delta mini-surge?" I would, myself, have answered differently.

Lol—somehow I actually read the question as the second part. I was wondering why so many people were talking about locking down— I was like, but she’s just asking if her pre-vax kids should mask! ☺️
 

As for the actual question, then, I wouldn’t have any problem locking down again, whatever that means. DH is still working from home (and prefers it), I’m not working which is a bummer but it’s fine, and DS will be off to university in a couple months. The only thing I’ve done any differently this summer is get together with a friend every week, outside. I still mask indoors and I haven’t had anyone in my house yet, though that will unfortunately be unavoidable when we have various family visiting this month (thankfully all the windows will be open and fans on). I figure we are in this for the long haul, given the high percentage of Americans who refuse to vaccinate. And even though my state has (and has had) very low numbers, I’m not at all interested in taking chances for myself or those around me. 

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With vaccines, I see no reason to be as strict as we were pre-vaccine (I also don’t consider that we have ever actually been in lockdown here), unless we have mutations that the vaccine isn’t working well enough for. I will continue to protect my two that are unvaccinated as much as possible for now. They have done well with seeing a couple friends from careful families outside occasionally and the older one FaceTime and zooming with friends. If we have more dangerous variance, then certainly we will go back to doing what we have to do. Though that’s going to be even more frustrating if it happens again, knowing that about half the population won’t help out with getting us out of it quicker. We could be done with this in the US by now, if people had seen it as their patriotic duty to get vaccinated so the US could be back to normal. 

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Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

NPR for what it’s worth had a segment on possible declining immunity after six months with Pfizer.  I’m trying to find where the info was coming from.  It’s possible that there’s still the memory cell immunity but it’s too slow to kick in? 

That is what I'm thinking. With Delta being associated with MUCH higher viral loads, earlier symptomatic infection, and some ability to evade antibodies, the lower the level of circulating antibodies (which do wane over time) the easier it is for the virus to get established and start replicating. Eventually the memory cells muster enough immune forces to knock it out before people end up hospitalized, but not fast enough to keep them from getting sick. The Chinese study that compared Delta to the original strain said that viral loads were 1,260 times higher in Delta patients when they were tested at first symptoms, and on average they became symptomatic two days earlier.

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56 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm sort of surprised everyone is quite this adamant. If everyone is vaccinated and the vaccine is working well, then that's different, but that's not my situation right now because of the kids. I'd personally rather keep everyone healthy, especially if whatever is supposed to help next is right around the corner. I can easily imagine becoming very sparing with outings for a month or two if we're that close to a kid vaccine! 

Staying home, living in isolation, is not healthy for my family. Not emotionally, spiritually, academically or relationally. Health is more than just lack of physical disease. 

We are trying to balance all the needs and all the risks. 

I think each family’s priorities will be different. A foundational principle of homeschooling: one size does not fit all. 


 

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Are children of your children’s ages and of similar health status having significant illness, death, or long haul problems in large numbers? 
 

How do risks compare to other activities they may do like bike riding, swimming, or playing on swings or jungle gym, or being a car passenger?   Or crossing street for that matter. 
 

If a child had something like diabetes my sense of what to do would be different than if a child had no known health issues. 
 

 

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3 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Staying home, living in isolation, is not healthy for my family. Not emotionally, spiritually, academically or relationally. Health is more than just lack of physical disease. 

We are trying to balance all the needs and all the risks. 

I think each family’s priorities will be different. A foundational principle of homeschooling: one size does not fit all. 


 

We didn’t do that, I guess. We did a pod.

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11 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Staying home, living in isolation, is not healthy for my family. Not emotionally, spiritually, academically or relationally. Health is more than just lack of physical disease. 

We are trying to balance all the needs and all the risks. 

I think each family’s priorities will be different. A foundational principle of homeschooling: one size does not fit all. 


 


agree

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I don't see our governor issuing stay at home orders again. My school district was in person all year and we were able to keep our case numbers low. As a state, we were only "closed" for 3 weeks before starting to slowly ease restrictions last year. My kiddo is vaccinated, but if he weren't, I'd feel comfortable with him not wearing a mask at outdoor events. We all still mask indoors at stores (lots of places still request/require masks even though the state order is lifted). We aren't really eating in restaurants yet (most of our restaurants are still focusing on takeout and outdoor dining). Thankfully, most activities are outdoors this time of year.

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We aren't doing a hard lockdown unless local conditions warrant it. But we also aren't socializing much, so 🤷‍♀️We are all vaxxed, and doing things like going into stores masked, chatting outside with neighbors unmasked, getting hair cuts masked. I am taking kiddo to the dentist soon, in case it becomes impossible to do so in the fall. DH is meeting a friend for lunch outside next week. I invited MIL to visit and would happily visit with my family if they were closer. Not doing planes or any large, crowded event anytime soon, though! 

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Well, they should feel lucky to have you. I just feel upset on your behalf that they take you for granted and that wearing a mask is a bigger issue to the parents than their kids being taught be someone who cares about their kids the way you do. 

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

We didn’t do that, I guess. We did a pod.

We did it March - May of 2020, when it was government mandate. Even then, because we live in suburbia, we spent plenty of time outdoors and in nearby parks or natural areas. Just not with people.

But we know some people who lived in self-imposed recluse conditions, not participating in any in-person community for many months after it was required. 

And while we have been attending church in-person for a year, going to school, tutoring, participating in Scouts, taking piano lessons etc., many of those things have been operating in very limited ways.  

Due to covid exposure, then my family having the wretched virus, then a big snowstorm, we were at home with only digital contact for six weeks this past winter. It was horrendous and we are just now pulling out from the devastation. 

Edited by ScoutTN
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MEmama said:

Lol—somehow I actually read the question as the second part. I was wondering why so many people were talking about locking down— I was like, but she’s just asking if her pre-vax kids should mask! ☺️

I honestly didn’t mean truly locking down!! Just being more restricted… at least for now.

Edited by Not_a_Number
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I wouldn’t lock down again for Covid. I do expect we may need to scale back our activity this fall. Even if we would rather not - and I don’t know how I will feel then or what kind of risk there will actually be - I just think that things might be that way whether i like it or not. Social activities require other people. 🙂 

There is a possibility that flu could be worse than Covid for a time this winter, too. I don’t think we will get a variant that will evade vaccine immunity to the extent it causes severe disease in most younger, healthier people, at least any time in the near future, and I don’t want to live my life in fear that it might happen at any time. The virus isn’t going away, we will probably get exposed to it, and though it would be great if more adults would get vaccinated, there would not be “zero Covid” even if every single one went out and got the shot tomorrow.

Whatever the risks objectively are, we don’t all perceive risks in the same way. It seems pretty important to you to avoid any Covid infection in your children at all costs, until they are vaccinated. In that case, maybe masking outdoors and not taking them anywhere indoors unless absolutely necessary is what you need to do. If you do take them to see friends indoors or do other optional things indoors, then masking outside doesn’t seem to make as much sense from a numbers POV, because it shows that you are actually willing to take some small risks re:Covid.

ETA I say this because I think risk indoors with mask >>>>>>>> than outdoors without mask 
 

In asking what other people do, for me it’s not just a matter of who in the family still can’t be vaccinated, it’s what risks they may have had to accept, or been willing to accept to avoid other non-Covid bad outcomes, since the initial lockdowns ended last summer. I have little kids, but not only little kids, and most older kids in our culture need to do some things outside the home. Life wasn’t normal, but I haven’t had the kids hunkering down this whole time, either, so we have already been taking risks. There are also plenty of families who have had members working outside the home either the entire time, or if initially WAH, have long since been back at work. Many kids have been in school at least part-time. So the unknown but by all accounts minuscule risk at an outdoor playground is so tiny compared to the potential exposures they have had all this time, that it doesn’t register as a big deal. 
 

 

Edited by Penelope
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4 hours ago, JenneinCA said:

We won’t but that is at least in part because it still feels like we haven’t left it.  My husband is still working from home full time.  His company says maybe in August they can go back.  The community college that I would send my youngest to is still almost all online for the fall.  They say maybe in the Spring for in person classes.  The parks near me still have signs requiring masks and most people are still masking at the parks.  The drinking fountains still don’t work.  And won’t until Santa Clara County Health says they can be turned on.  No one knows when that will be.

The good part is we have very high vaccination rates.  The case load is going up but not so much.  

Same in my area in CA. 
I have a full blown mental health crisis with my oldest from being online. We were counting on CC to be there for him in high school and now all we have to look forward are two more years of being on zoom. The inside information I have is teachers get to decide if they ever want to bring classes back in person and most teachers don’t. They have lectures recorded and it’s all on auto pilot. They can sip margaritas and get paid. Basically I was told to keep expectations very low. 
So no, I don’t want to lock down unless vaccines end up being ineffective. In fact I want classrooms open. I really don’t know how we will survive the next two years online. 

Edited by Roadrunner
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https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/coronacast/how-much-worse-is-it-going-to-get/13440768
 

coronacast today had some discussion on what’s happening with young people in Israel.  There’s a transcript and also a link to the nature article with the data.  Basically 50pc of cases are in under 20s and while they are still low risk on an individual level more cases means more severe cases just from a bulk of the numbers perspective.

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this is the most relevant part from the transcript - think the nature article is probably better though because then you can see where the data is at 

Tegan Taylor: So speaking of Covid and how it can be bad news for young people, what do we know about the numbers of young people who are catching Covid internationally at the moment given that most adults are now vaccinated in many countries?
Norman Swan: Some of the best data come from Israel, and Nature has just reported some of the latest data from the Ministry of Health in Israel. And this is largely a phenomenon of having immunised the older age groups and remembering, as I said, Israel has just put in restrictions like mask wearing, social distancing again and border restrictions. And what the data show from Israel is that nearly 40% of new infections are in 10- to 19-year-olds, and nearly 12% are in 0 to 9 years old. So, 50%-odd of the cases are in people aged 19 and under.
Tegan Taylor: Are they getting badly sick?
Norman Swan: I don't have that data. It's unlikely that they are getting a lot of severe illness but some of them will be in hospital and if there's enough of them some will die unfortunately but at a lower rate than older people, but a high number, maybe one in five, do get long Covid.
Tegan Taylor: What does that tell us then about the future of how we live with Covid long term?
Norman Swan: It tells you that we've got to immunise not just to 12 years old, we've got to immunise everybody in the community, including children, and it's going to have to be part of the childhood immunisation schedule.
 

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5 hours ago, JenneinCA said:

My husband is still working from home full time.  His company says maybe in August they can go back.  

When my husband went back last week, the parking was full and we had to park at a carpool lot illegally (since it’s meant for two or more employees). He is supposed to go back in September full time but has to go back office now and then.

@Roadrunner Foothill Theatre reopening on July 22nd “Seating is limited to 200 people per performance”

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I honestly didn’t mean truly locking down!! Just being more restricted… at least for now.

When shelter in place was imposed, my kids recreational tennis lessons went from 8 per class to 4 per class with masks (and a higher lesson fee). Places that my husband regularly shop like Best Buy, Costco, Target, ethnic supermarkets stayed open so he shop as usual. Since I still have all my medical appointments, we didn’t really go out less than usual. We are masking as usual but Asians here do typically mask during flu season anyway so masking for Covid is similar to masking for a long flu season. If we go to our local Korean supermarkets, everyone would be in masks, even though our vaccination rates for Asians is close to 90 percent for 12 and older. 

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I would happily lockdown if this country were capable of an effective 2-week lockdown, but we suck, so what’s the point?
 

My 10yo is only allowed outdoor play dates and we don’t have him mask outside. 
Come November, he’s basically on lockdown again until vaccinated or May 2022, whichever comes first.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Penelope said:

Whatever the risks objectively are, we don’t all perceive risks in the same way. It seems pretty important to you to avoid any Covid infection in your children at all costs, until they are vaccinated. In that case, maybe masking outdoors and not taking them anywhere indoors unless absolutely necessary is what you need to do. If you do take them to see friends indoors or do other optional things indoors, then masking outside doesn’t seem to make as much sense from a numbers POV, because it shows that you are actually willing to take some small risks re:Covid.

No, it doesn’t seem important to me to avoid COVID. You state that like it’s a personal preference. What’s important for me is not to ruin their lives at this early point, which long COVID could do.

If someone gives me good data showing that my kids are extremely unlikely to get long COVID, then I’d gladly stop caring. Honestly. 

 

8 hours ago, Penelope said:

So the unknown but by all accounts minuscule risk at an outdoor playground is so tiny compared to the potential exposures they have had all this time, that it doesn’t register as a big deal. 

It’s not by all accounts minuscule. It’s basically unknown. I’ve looked and we aren’t tracking well enough to know. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

No, it doesn’t seem important to me to avoid COVID. You state that like it’s a personal preference. What’s important for me is not to ruin their lives at this early point, which long COVID could do.

If someone gives me good data showing that my kids are extremely unlikely to get long COVID, then I’d gladly stop caring. Honestly. 

 

It’s not by all accounts minuscule. It’s basically unknown. I’ve looked and we aren’t tracking well enough to know. 

The few articles I've read on long COVID suggest there isn't even an agreed-upon definition of the term. For some people it means having symptoms like a mild head cold for a month. For others it's permanent lung damage.

If I had young children, I would want that parsed out.

My understanding is that severe cases of long COVID are rare in otherwise healthy children. You're way more informed on all things COVID than I am, so I'm open to learning otherwise.

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20 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

No, it doesn’t seem important to me to avoid COVID. You state that like it’s a personal preference. What’s important for me is not to ruin their lives at this early point, which long COVID could do.

If someone gives me good data showing that my kids are extremely unlikely to get long COVID, then I’d gladly stop caring. Honestly. 

 

It’s not by all accounts minuscule. It’s basically unknown. I’ve looked and we aren’t tracking well enough to know. 

I really wish we had better data on young children. I remember seeing around 500 or so deaths reported in under 12 group in this country, but all among high risk kids. Nothing on long Covid. 
 

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If your playgrounds are crowded and the numbers are tripling where you live it makes sense to mask at playgrounds unless masking causes your kids a significant problem like breathing difficulties.  
 

Some people saw the title of your post and panicked at the word lockdown.  I think that word refers to rules made by the city or state and not the choices of individual families.  

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We have 2 kids too young to be vaccinated, and 1 still in process of being vaccinated. We are all wearing masks inside still, and even though our rates are currently very low, Delta has arrived and there is an uptick. We try to avoid having the littles go to inside places. We have had some playground play dates without masks, but playgrounds are not crowded here. If we were at crowded outdoor spaces, I would have them mask unless there was an danger of overheating. 
We are moving in October to FL, and I really hope the vaccines are approved for under 12s before then. 

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42 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I really wish we had better data on young children. I remember seeing around 500 or so deaths reported in under 12 group in this country, but all among high risk kids. Nothing on long Covid. 
 

Yes it would be so helpful.  Long COVID seems to be covering everything from something like a longish flu with a bit of fatigue that resolves in three months to potentially life-long issues.  It would be so good to see that kind of thing separated out. The first one seems ok to take some risk around for the sake of the kids general mental health but no one wants the second.

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3 minutes ago, Belphoebe said:

According to this article from BMJ:

"Perhaps most worrying is that the latest UK estimates for long covid in children aged 12-16 who experience prolonged symptoms (for at least 12 months) are 0.12% (0.06-0.17) or 1 in 830, with possible but unknown effects on developing brain structure based on recent adult studies."

Thanks for finding this. I wish we had more than "estimates," "possible" effects, and unspecified "symptoms." (I'd be a terrible public health policy professional.)

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30 minutes ago, Belphoebe said:

According to this article from BMJ:

"Perhaps most worrying is that the latest UK estimates for long covid in children aged 12-16 who experience prolonged symptoms (for at least 12 months) are 0.12% (0.06-0.17) or 1 in 830, with possible but unknown effects on developing brain structure based on recent adult studies."

See, if it's really 0.12%, I'd probably take my chances. That's a low rate.

But I frankly am not understanding any of their numbers. How are they estimating a 13% efficacy against infection?? Where are they getting that?? 

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I think I’d keep them masked in very crowded situations for a while longer. I’d want to see how the Delta variant plays out.  
 

Currently I’m working and not masking in the store, but most of the time the building is empty.  When I see a customer coming I mask up. I’m in an antique mall and the demographic that shops there is still staying cautiously at home. When kids do come through, they’re all masked. I’ll watch the numbers and if there is significant breakthrough in vaccinated people, I’ll have to quit my job and hole up at home again to protect ds. 
 

We do have a brand new and popular playground near us. Next time I walk by I’ll try to notice the masking patterns there. I’m in a pretty cautious area. 
 

I’d kind of like to see masks normalized as helpful and not viewed as a punishment. They’re a good tool to have and I enjoyed having zero colds or flu for two years. It would be awesome if sick people would wear them going forward. They could be viewed in the same light has hand washing and surface cleaning. Other cultures did this before Covid and it would be nice to keep it. 

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1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think I’d keep them masked in very crowded situations for a while longer. I’d want to see how the Delta variant plays out.  

Yeah, I'm leaning that way. The problem for us is the sprinklers -- it's why we took the masks off in the first place! Perhaps my kids can learn not to get their faces wet... 

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

I really wish we had better data on young children. I remember seeing around 500 or so deaths reported in under 12 group in this country, but all among high risk kids. Nothing on long Covid. 
 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.16.21257255v1

 

I found this study which I found very reassuring. It's a preprint, sure, but it actually has a control group for looking at long covid  symptoms in kids, rather than just administering a survey after diagnosis, which does nothing to parse out kids with unrelated symptoms such as reacting to the stress of the lockdown and a global pandemic. @Not_a_Number i have kids similar ages and also find that long covid is my biggest concern. My state has similarly high vax rates, was down to minimal cases for a while and has recently gone back up with Delta. Right now, we are sticking to exclusively outdoor things (don't even let the kids go into the changing rooms after swimming outdoors). Even though cases are going up, they are still below the spikes seen earlier. Our gov. Has actually been pretty balanced, so I'm watching state regulations and following news about kids. If I see bad developments or large local outbreaks we will go back to more strict distancing and masking. I know my kids, even thought we kept them busy with hiking, seeing family who were similarly cautious, etc, were definitely struggling mentally. Now that they are seeing their friends it's been like night and day.

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5 minutes ago, JessBurs said:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.16.21257255v1

 

I found this study which I found very reassuring. It's a preprint, sure, but it actually has a control group for looking at long covid  symptoms in kids, rather than just administering a survey after diagnosis, which does nothing to parse out kids with unrelated symptoms such as reacting to the stress of the lockdown and a global pandemic. @Not_a_Number i have kids similar ages and also find that long covid is my biggest concern. My state has similarly high vax rates, was down to minimal cases for a while and has recently gone back up with Delta. Right now, we are sticking to exclusively outdoor things (don't even let the kids go into the changing rooms after swimming outdoors). Even though cases are going up, they are still below the spikes seen earlier. Our gov. Has actually been pretty balanced, so I'm watching state regulations and following news about kids. If I see bad developments or large local outbreaks we will go back to more strict distancing and masking. I know my kids, even thought we kept them busy with hiking, seeing family who were similarly cautious, etc, were definitely struggling mentally. Now that they are seeing their friends it's been like night and day.

 

Thanks! I've seen this before but I've forgotten about it -- thank you very much for the reminder! 

If anyone wants the actual numbers, this pdf has them: 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.16.21257255v2.full.pdf

The actual numbers broken up by symptom are, in my opinion, way more helpful. There's a table in the pdf, but here are some useful notes:

1) 3% of the seropositive and 0% of the seronegative kids had 3 more or symptoms at 12 weeks. 

2) 3% of the seropositive and 1% of the seronegative kids were tired at 12 weeks. 

3) 2% of the seropositive and 1% of the seronegative kids were having trouble concentrating at 12 weeks. 

4) 2% of the seropositive and 0% of the seronegative kids rated themselves as in "poor" health. 

5% of the seropositive kids and 4% of the seronegative kids rated themselves as in "fair" health. 

It looks like the seropositive kids have a rate of something like 2-3% of lingering issues that are not recorded by the seronegative kids. I'm using "lingering" to mean "at 12 weeks," because I am well aware that even normal colds can stretch out to 4 weeks of coughing/sneezing/bad sleep, etc. 12 weeks, on the other hand doesn't sound normal to me at all. 

That sounds about right but is frankly not super reassuring. Those are not extremely low numbers and I have NO IDEA what they would mean for my kids in the future... 

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14 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Staying home, living in isolation, is not healthy for my family. Not emotionally, spiritually, academically or relationally. Health is more than just lack of physical disease. 

We are trying to balance all the needs and all the risks. 

I think each family’s priorities will be different. A foundational principle of homeschooling: one size does not fit all. 


 

100% agree

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Our lockdowns had too many negative effects on my family. My son became so unhealthy. We won't lockdown again by choice. And if we have the ability we will leave the country we live in to avoid what we experienced. (We don't live in the States, so our experience was vastly different). 

My family, including my DS who was 8 at the time, all had COVID and recovered. The fear he went through was far worse for him than the virus itself. 

We are going to parks, and spending lots of time playing outside. We have 6 months where we couldn't even be outside! Not again. Fresh air, sun, exercise are all too important. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, lulalu said:

100% agree

Well, me too, lol. But I don't need to have my kids live in isolation to feel like we're a LOT more locked down than now. It's all shades of gray. 

Right now, the only thing we aren't doing are indoor activities. The kids are unmasked at playgrounds. We're taking buses and subways. 

We could easily 

a) Mask in playgrounds 

or

b) Not take public transit

or

b) Not go to playgrounds at all and meet up with our friends in the park outside a playgrounds 

or

c) Move to Zoom play dates for a month while there's a Delta wave. 

None of these things would result in some sort of dire isolation in the long term. I'm honestly really looking forward to a mix of online and in-person activities, because online activities do not require us to haul out every single day, which we tend to have to do for homeschool activities in person. And my evidence from last year is that small unmuted Zoom classes keep the kids feeling like they are still friends, especially if they were already tight in real life. 

Look, we've traveled for longer than we'd have to tighten things if the vaccine is coming up soon... 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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1 minute ago, lulalu said:

Our lockdowns had too many negative effects on my family. My son became so unhealthy. We won't lockdown again by choice. And if we have the ability we will leave the country we live in to avoid what we experienced. (We don't live in the States, so our experience was vastly different). 

My family, including my DS who was 8 at the time, all had COVID and recovered. The fear he went through was far worse for him than the virus itself. 

We are going to parks, and spending lots of time playing outside. We have 6 months where we couldn't even be outside! Not again. Fresh air, sun, exercise are all too important. 

I'm not talking about the kind of lockdown you would have outside the US. We've never had a situation where we couldn't go outside. And I don't even see us not seeing friends again... just that there's a vast range of options here. 

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Severe Playground injury rates may be higher than severe Covid problem rates for children.

https://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/playground-injuries/playgroundinjuries-factsheet.htm

“Playground Injuries: Fact Sheet 

Overview

Each year in the United States, emergency departments treat more than 200,000 children ages 14 and younger for playground-related injuries (Tinsworth 2001).

Occurrence and Consequences 

  • About 45% of playground-related injuries are severe–fractures, internal injuries, concussions, dislocations, and amputations (Tinsworth 2001).
 

 
 
 
Jan 24, 2019 — In comparison, data from the US shows there are approximately 17 deaths per year attributable to playground equipment, 67% of which occur on ... “
 

 
How do those figures compare to Covid in same age group? 
 
at least in theory there seem to be more deaths attributed to Covid — but not clear if they are “from” Covid or “with” Covid.  There are probably more long term problems from head injuries etc from playground falls than from Covid. Though we don’t know entire story yet. 
Probably most little  kids have very mild cv when they get it. Much like most kids have just a bruise or skinned knee from playing at playground mishaps
 
Not using playgrounds might make more sense due to stats for playground injuries than because of Covid transmission at a playground. Or accepting some risk might make sense. It really depends what an individual parent is comfortable with/afraid of. 
 
 
And the child’s vulnerability. I would make different playground choice for a hemophiliac or enlarged spleen child. And  different choices for a child with high risk factors for Covid, than for healthy children
 
 
 
 
Edited by Pen
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With the sprinkler question, could you bring a few washable cloth masks to the playground, switch them out as they get wet, and wash the whole batch when you get home? 

My 20 yo vaccinated niece (J&J) is really sick right now. Fever, severe sore throat, can't eat or drink without numbing throat spray, starting oral steroids because her tonsils were so swollen they almost touch. Rapid and long strep tests negative, and she's being tested for Covid and mono at her primary care doc today. Of course symptoms began over the weekend. Don't get me started that neither of two CVS Minute Clinics nor urgent care tested her for Covid before--she passed out in the aisle of one CVS and they gave her juice and had her call a friend for a ride home. 

She's in MA, and I wonder if some clinicians in high vax/low case states are getting complacent, or just haven't seen Delta yet. 

It may not be Covid, but she did have exposure to a family whose teens had breakthrough cases (also J&J) and she should have been tested and treated as a potential Covid patient the first time she sought care. 

I'm shifting toward taking more precautions, while still doing things that we want to do. 

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Is there a time of day when playgrounds are less crowded?  Can you go when the sprinklers are off, or stay away from public sprinklers (maybe buy a yard sprinkler instead)?

I have zero worry about Covid in little healthy kids, but for those who do, I'd rather find a mask-off option to outdoor play.  Wearing a mask during exercise does impact breathing, and breathing does impact what kids can do at play time, which impacts development over time. 

Another thing - I had to mask during TKD and puppy classes for many months, and it interfered with my ability to see what I was doing, where my feet were etc.  That would also impact kids' safety and development if done more than a bare minimum.

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3 minutes ago, Acadie said:

With the sprinkler question, could you bring a few washable cloth masks to the playground, switch them out as they get wet, and wash the whole batch when you get home? 

My 20 yo vaccinated niece (J&J) is really sick right now. Fever, severe sore throat, can't eat or drink without numbing throat spray, starting oral steroids because her tonsils were so swollen they almost touch. Rapid and long strep tests negative, and she's being tested for Covid and mono at her primary care doc today. Of course symptoms began over the weekend. Don't get me started that neither of two CVS Minute Clinics nor urgent care tested her for Covid before--she passed out in the aisle of one CVS and they gave her juice and had her call a friend for a ride home. 

She's in MA, and I wonder if some clinicians in high vax/low case states are getting complacent, or just haven't seen Delta yet. 

It may not be Covid, but she did have exposure to a family whose teens had breakthrough cases (also J&J) and she should have been tested and treated as a potential Covid patient the first time she sought care. 

I'm shifting toward taking more precautions, while still doing things that we want to do. 

It may not be the fault of the CVS not testing.  Here ( and some other states are doing this too) we aren’t really testing those who are vaccinated.  
 

Ask her for them to check for RSV, too.  It is a strong year for it and the symptoms are not always what they usually are.  One of DH’s cousins just got out of the hospital for it.  She had a lot of throat symptoms.  Plus, there are some nasty viruses going around.

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9 minutes ago, SKL said:

Is there a time of day when playgrounds are less crowded?  Can you go when the sprinklers are off, or stay away from public sprinklers (maybe buy a yard sprinkler instead)?

I think they are in New York City - playgrounds tend to be occupied all open hours ime - though perhaps very early morning they are less so 

 

Quote

I have zero worry about Covid in little healthy kids, but for those who do, I'd rather find a mask-off option to outdoor play.  Wearing a mask during exercise does impact breathing, and breathing does impact what kids can do at play time, which impacts development over time. 
 

 

especially if it’s hot weather ... perhaps less issue if it’s woolen scarf weather 

 

Quote

Another thing - I had to mask during TKD and puppy classes for many months, and it interfered with my ability to see what I was doing, where my feet were etc.  That would also impact kids' safety and development if done more than a bare minimum.


vision reduction from mask is very important consideration - could add to other injuries becoming more likely - I like Happy Masks for breathability, but the stick out shape make it harder to see downward

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@Not_a_Number, we are planning on acquiring another vehicle so ds can move from taking public transport to driving if we have another steep wave. 
 

So, in your scenario, we are already doing a, plan on b, and would do c if a strong wave hit as Youngest’s BFF goes to public school. 
 

I realize we are outliers, but we have always been. 

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16 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

We didn’t do that, I guess. We did a pod.

At the start of the pandemic, I immediately sensed it was going to last for quite a long time.  I remember suggesting people pod up for mutual support to be able to better make it through a long time of social distancing.  In my area and demographic, that suggestion was widely seen as selfish/foolish- after all it’s “just 30 days” to flatten the curve, so we should just tough it out and not see anyone at all.  There was a certain callousness in my area regarding questions of mental health + family caregiving. 

I’m sending my kids to camp this year.  We chose outdoor camps.  Vaccine rates are very high here.  My comfort would be less if we had lower vaccination rates.  It’s a risk I am comfortable with.  Two of my younger son’s camps are done.  He has 1 more left.  My older son has his longer camp session at the end of this month.  

 

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3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

No, it doesn’t seem important to me to avoid COVID. You state that like it’s a personal preference. What’s important for me is not to ruin their lives at this early point, which long COVID could do.

If someone gives me good data showing that my kids are extremely unlikely to get long COVID, then I’d gladly stop caring. Honestly. 

 

It’s not by all accounts minuscule. It’s basically unknown. I’ve looked and we aren’t tracking well enough to know. 

To avoid long Covid, you have to avoid Covid, right? I understood that you’re concerned about long term effects, but avoiding Covid before vaccination would still be the goal then. There is a personal preference in how much risk you take. There are a lot of people out there who basically don’t think about this at all anymore, others that are very concerned, and some in between. Those on this thread seem to be in the last two categories.

 

I think you might have taken my post in the wrong spirit. I am saying I don’t worry at all about outdoors, Delta or no Delta makes no difference to me, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t. You should do what you are comfortable with. 

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25 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

It may not be the fault of the CVS not testing.  Here ( and some other states are doing this too) we aren’t really testing those who are vaccinated.  
 

Ask her for them to check for RSV, too.  It is a strong year for it and the symptoms are not always what they usually are.  One of DH’s cousins just got out of the hospital for it.  She had a lot of throat symptoms.  Plus, there are some nasty viruses going around.

Are you serious? Who thinks those with symptoms shouldn’t be tested? I hope that isn’t where things are going. 
 

I’ve also heard there are a lot of other viruses going around and have heard of a lot of people with high fevers, sick for over a week, like a bad flu, but not Covid. I wonder if health care is doing much flu testing of these people; I’ve sort of wondered if flu would make an earlier appearance with things opening up and Covid declining.

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13 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Are you serious? Who thinks those with symptoms shouldn’t be tested? I hope that isn’t where things are going. 
 

I’ve also heard there are a lot of other viruses going around and have heard of a lot of people with high fevers, sick for over a week, like a bad flu, but not Covid. I wonder if health care is doing much flu testing of these people; I’ve sort of wondered if flu would make an earlier appearance with things opening up and Covid declining.

The rumored theory behind this stupidity is if they test a vaccinated person and test positive, people will be reluctant to get the vaccine.  

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