Jump to content

Menu

At what point would you lock down again?


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

What really gets me is that I have parents upset that I have stated that masks will be required in lessons this fall. Even some of the ones who were supportive of my continuing to require them this summer. They say their kids have "had enough". Uh, I'm just trying to keep the option of in person lessons available and keep my cannot be vaccinated students safe in an area which is dark red on the CDC map. In a state where the Governor has never had a mask mandate and has threatened local health departments who had them. 

 

 

The big county next to us (Fairfax County in VA) has just required all kids and staff (vaccinated or not) to wear masks in school at all times except for lunch, recess, and outside PE.  Our county has not issued anything regarding masks yet.  Our Governor is weighing what to do with the new CDC guidance recently issued.

I'm not sure what our in-person homeschool classes will do, but my guys will be wearing masks regardless.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

I don’t think we’ll go back to staying in like we were. I was dragging my feet about getting my 13 yo dd vaxxed because all the vulnerable people in our lives have been vaxxed as have dh, me, and our three adult sons. I still have some reservations about the vaccine for young people and a month ago numbers were so low we waited. 
 

But she got her first shot today. Once she is fully vaxxed we will mask where required/requested but we will proceed with our lives as normally as we can. It’s not that I don’t see any danger out there. I do. We will have just done all we can do and proceed the way we do with all the other risks we are exposed to on a regular basis just living our lives. 
 

We were never locked down like some of you were but we really had cut out almost all activities, church, social time. My dd had one small group activity, 18 yo Ds attended college in person a couple times a week and worked full time in a grocery store. So we certainly weren’t locked down. But we were passing on just about anything else and we were working hard to avoid anyone who could be vulnerable (whether they cared or not). We won’t be going back to that. 

Well, to be fair, a lot of us talking about locking down have young kids. I'm going to feel quite differently after we're all vaccinated. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

That's it. I want my kids vaccinated and my booster now 😛. I'll take the darn booster like a good little girl, despite the fact that I did not react all that well to this vaccine. Because the reason I react badly to the vaccine is probably the same darn reason I'll wind up with persistent headaches from the virus and who knows what else... 

Edited by Not_a_Number
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, this is it. We're canceling our babysitters and going to sit this one out until the booster shots for us and the vaccines for the kids. No more indoor time with other people. 

I've planned this fall around online classes and outdoor playdates, anyway. So hopefully that'll be fine... 

  • Sad 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yep, this is it. We're canceling our babysitters and going to sit this one out until the booster shots for us and the vaccines for the kids. No more indoor time with other people. 

I've planned this fall around online classes and outdoor playdates, anyway. So hopefully that'll be fine... 

Probably wise. My son likely caught it in NY - up near Lake George. He's thinking an arcade they went to is really the only likely place, as there were a lot of tourists and kids too young to be vaccinated

  • Sad 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Probably wise. My son likely caught it in NY - up near Lake George. He's thinking an arcade they went to is really the only likely place, as there were a lot of tourists and kids too young to be vaccinated

Could also be the plane, right?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Could also be the plane, right?

Possible but unlikely. Plane there was a week ago, and first symptom was today. With Delta they are saying incubation is usually shorter, I think? And I'd blame the flight and the overnight stay in the airport but that would be too soon for him to have tested positive today, I think. Flight left Monday afternoon, late. Then he landed in Charlotte and ended up hving to sleep in the airport and got on a flight home Tuesday morning. Tested positive Wednesday morning. 

All his friends that he was with so far tested negative, thankfully. 

And he masked on flight with KF94, and in the airport. He specifically mentioned when he first got home that if he can sleep in a mask, in an airport, others can wear them for an hour at the store. 

I'm betting he was not masked the whole time at the arcade, as he'd likely have gotten a drink or food. 

Edited by ktgrok
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just want to know how China is managing to keep itself protected. Massive, massive country with insanely huge borders. Delta was here just as soon as somebody sneezed in India. Yet Chinese are managing to keep this damn virus mutations from penetrating their borders. Does anybody know what sort of travel restrictions they have or how they control things from sipping into the country? We should be doing whatever they are doing at their borders. Today it’s Delta, tomorrow it might be something else. This stupid virus has endless surprises. 
 

I will say my friends of all persuasion (they are all mostly liberals with an exception if some immigrants) are very agains the mask mandate for vaccinated. Nobody around me has kids younger than 12, so that most certainly affects the thinking, but most around me would turn on the governor if restrictions are mandated again for vaccinated. I can only imagine what it looks like on the other side of the political divide. 
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Yet Chinese are managing to keep this damn virus mutations from penetrating their borders.

or not ... hard to know what the actual situation is where China is concerned. We only know what they want us to know from what I hear from my chinese immigrant friends.

  • Like 9
  • Sad 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

or not ... hard to know what the actual situation is where China is concerned. We only know what they want us to know from what I hear from my chinese immigrant friends.

Their numbers look amazing. Miraculous really. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

58 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I will say my friends of all persuasion (they are all mostly liberals with an exception if some immigrants) are very agains the mask mandate for vaccinated. Nobody around me has kids younger than 12, so that most certainly affects the thinking, but most around me would turn on the governor if restrictions are mandated again for vaccinated. I can only imagine what it looks like on the other side of the political divide. 

interesting. It’s the opposite here. The people who are vaccinated are most likely to mask. Masking had recently very rapidly dropped from universal to a small minority masking, but with the new Delta developments, masking is now reversing here again and people are starting to mask up in bigger numbers again. Will be interesting next time I go somewhere to see what it’s like now. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Possible but unlikely. Plane there was a week ago, and first symptom was today. With Delta they are saying incubation is usually shorter, I think? 

In Victoria they are findi g that with delta incubation us both shorter and longer

People were exposed at the same event. They all went into isolation in their own homes. 

 Some tested positive in as little as 24-36 hours some have just tested positive at day 13. They have all been tested multiple times.  

  • Like 2
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

interesting. It’s the opposite here. The people who are vaccinated are most likely to mask. Masking had recently very rapidly dropped from universal to a small minority masking, but with the new Delta developments, masking is now reversing here again and people are starting to mask up in bigger numbers again. Will be interesting next time I go somewhere to see what it’s like now. 

I'm seeing that here, too. We went from pretty much universal masking to hardly anyone except cashiers masking, but then when I was in Whole Foods this morning nearly everyone was masking again — total reversal in just a week. And DS said the local fencing club just reinstated their mask mandate today: masks on everyone, at all times, even when competing, regardless of vaccination status. I'm sad that it's necessary, but very glad that people here are taking it seriously.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Does anybody know what sort of travel restrictions they have or how they control things from sipping into the country? We should be doing whatever they are doing at their borders.

I do know that once they've identified an area with COVID they will do heavy lockdown in the area (and can do it much better due to authoritarian government). Lockdown as in you can not leave your house, contact tracing which would trigger privacy concerns, etc. Also these would be implemented with real punishments (at the very least a huge fine). Which is not implementable in the US, because we have freedoms.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/27/2021 at 2:57 PM, bibiche said:

Not Not a Number, but I am in an area with a lot of Russians and know only one who is vaccinated. It stinks, because a number of them are friends and relatives so we don’t see them now. I’ve seen the same refusal of vaccines from nearly all the people I know from former Soviet and Eastern bloc countries as well. 😞 

Is that what's going on? I noticed a few very VOCAL ones I know locally in homeschooling circles who have been anti-masking, anti-vax... It is interesting to know this isn't random.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mathnerd said:

or not ... hard to know what the actual situation is where China is concerned. We only know what they want us to know from what I hear from my chinese immigrant friends.

Yeah.  There were pics on Twitter last week of empty railway stations etc in one area, and reports on Chinese media of testing etc going on so presumably there’s some kind of outbreak.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RoadrunnerThe way the Chinese achieve this is by what you would consider fairly draconian measures. Complete and total lockdown. None of this halfway stuff going on. Total shutdown of movement in and out of the areas in questions. Large scale testing (on the order of millions of citizens at a time) and meticulous contact tracing that is easily achieved because of the fact that China has mass surveillance. I read recently there's 1 camera for every 2 citizens in China. On top of that, it's sophisticated surveillance, they track your phone everywhere and the face recognition with their surveillance means they really know what you are doing. Plus everyone has to have the pass on their phones to be able to go anywhere or do anything. It automatically will flag you if you had contact with someone who tests positive or was exposed because they know with your phone if your phone has been in range of other people. It's a highly controlled population and media. If you don't cooperate and behave the way the gov't wants you to, they will compel you to by blocking access to a wide variety of services from the ability to travel, limit your internet speed, access to schooling for your children, pets confiscated, blocked from higher education, ability to purchase things, ability to borrow money, etc. There is a whole social credit system that they use which tracks your social media footprint, behavior and financial activity. China has "vanished" people as well who they felt were disruptive/troublemakers.

 If it sounds dystopian, you wouldn't be wrong.

Personally, even though I am a US citizen by birth, I don't feel safe travelling to China because I have been openly critical on social media about what's been happening in Hong Kong. I don't have the same right a non-Chinese American citizen has. China considers themselves to have authority over any overseas Chinese when within their borders.

Edited by calbear
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 4
  • Sad 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, calbear said:

@RoadrunnerThe way the Chinese achieve this is by what you would consider fairly draconian measures. Complete and total lockdown. None of this halfway stuff going on. Total shutdown of movement in and out of the areas in questions. Large scale testing (on the order of millions of citizens at a time) and meticulous contact tracing that is easily achieved because of the fact that China has mass surveillance. I read recently there's 1 camera for every 2 citizens in China. On top of that, it's sophisticated surveillance, they track your phone everywhere and the face recognition with their surveillance means they really know what you are doing. Plus everyone has to have the pass on their phones to be able to go anywhere or do anything. It automatically will flag you if you had contact with someone who tests positive or was exposed because they know with your phone if your phone has been in range of other people. It's a highly controlled population and media. If you don't cooperate and behave the way the gov't wants you to, they will compel you to by blocking access to a wide variety of services from the ability to travel, limit your internet speed, access to schooling for your children, pets confiscated, blocked from higher education, ability to purchase things, ability to borrow money, etc. There is a whole social credit system that they use which tracks your social media footprint, behavior and financial activity. China has "vanished" people as well who they felt were disruptive/troublemakers.

 If it sounds dystopian, you wouldn't be wrong.

Personally, even though I am a US citizen by birth, I don't feel safe travelling to China because I have been openly critical on social media about what's been happening in Hong Kong. I don't have the same right a non-Chinese American citizen has. China considers themselves to have authority over any overseas Chinese when within their borders.

Oh good lord. I didn’t realize the extent of it. 
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I'm seeing that here, too. We went from pretty much universal masking to hardly anyone except cashiers masking, but then when I was in Whole Foods this morning nearly everyone was masking again — total reversal in just a week. And DS said the local fencing club just reinstated their mask mandate today: masks on everyone, at all times, even when competing, regardless of vaccination status. I'm sad that it's necessary, but very glad that people here are taking it seriously.

I'm seeing the same. All the masks were off, but the last couples of times I've been out, there was a lot more masking, including outside. 

I think things like masking are very socially-driven, so I'm glad people are easy about them here. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, calbear said:

@RoadrunnerThe way the Chinese achieve this is by what you would consider fairly draconian measures. Complete and total lockdown. None of this halfway stuff going on. Total shutdown of movement in and out of the areas in questions. Large scale testing (on the order of millions of citizens at a time) and meticulous contact tracing that is easily achieved because of the fact that China has mass surveillance. I read recently there's 1 camera for every 2 citizens in China. On top of that, it's sophisticated surveillance, they track your phone everywhere and the face recognition with their surveillance means they really know what you are doing. Plus everyone has to have the pass on their phones to be able to go anywhere or do anything. It automatically will flag you if you had contact with someone who tests positive or was exposed because they know with your phone if your phone has been in range of other people. It's a highly controlled population and media. If you don't cooperate and behave the way the gov't wants you to, they will compel you to by blocking access to a wide variety of services from the ability to travel, limit your internet speed, access to schooling for your children, pets confiscated, blocked from higher education, ability to purchase things, ability to borrow money, etc. There is a whole social credit system that they use which tracks your social media footprint, behavior and financial activity. China has "vanished" people as well who they felt were disruptive/troublemakers.

 If it sounds dystopian, you wouldn't be wrong.

Personally, even though I am a US citizen by birth, I don't feel safe travelling to China because I have been openly critical on social media about what's been happening in Hong Kong. I don't have the same right a non-Chinese American citizen has. China considers themselves to have authority over any overseas Chinese when within their borders.

There's also the matter of information control. It's hard to gauge how the fidelity of the Chinese data at this point in the pandemic compares to the fidelity of data from other countries, and it would probably take information from people who have knowledge of the current Chinese collection methods (as distinct from those earlier in the pandemic) to be sure. Bear in mind England has changed its collection rules at least 6 times in the past 18 months, some of which made a big difference to the results.

Edited to add: Despite all of the above, China has confirmed it has problems in several different provinces, partly due to an outbreak at one of its airports and partly due to refugees from Myanmar who are accidentally bringing the virus with them. I'd suggest that the relative non-efficacy of the Chinese vaccines compared to others is why a larger proportion of their outbreaks involve vaccinated people than happens in the USA or UK.

Edited by ieta_cassiopeia
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

In Victoria they are findi g that with delta incubation us both shorter and longer

People were exposed at the same event. They all went into isolation in their own homes. 

 Some tested positive in as little as 24-36 hours some have just tested positive at day 13. They have all been tested multiple times.  

well, that's not helpful!

So back to no idea when/where he got it. He saw my parents (vaccinated) on last Wednesday, and they tested and are quarantining for 10 days from when they saw him. (assuming no symptoms and test was negative). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did find more information on the China outbreak it’s from Nanjing.

This is from Global Times

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202107/1229733.shtml

This is from the BBC journalist who I tend to think of as reasonably reliable as far as he has access to information 

 

and this is from Reuters.

Whether or not the numbers are accurate it seems that Delta is also causing issues in China.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, calbear said:

@RoadrunnerThe way the Chinese achieve this is by what you would consider fairly draconian measures. Complete and total lockdown. None of this halfway stuff going on. Total shutdown of movement in and out of the areas in questions. Large scale testing (on the order of millions of citizens at a time) and meticulous contact tracing that is easily achieved because of the fact that China has mass surveillance. I read recently there's 1 camera for every 2 citizens in China. On top of that, it's sophisticated surveillance, they track your phone everywhere and the face recognition with their surveillance means they really know what you are doing. Plus everyone has to have the pass on their phones to be able to go anywhere or do anything. It automatically will flag you if you had contact with someone who tests positive or was exposed because they know with your phone if your phone has been in range of other people. It's a highly controlled population and media. If you don't cooperate and behave the way the gov't wants you to, they will compel you to by blocking access to a wide variety of services from the ability to travel, limit your internet speed, access to schooling for your children, pets confiscated, blocked from higher education, ability to purchase things, ability to borrow money, etc. There is a whole social credit system that they use which tracks your social media footprint, behavior and financial activity. China has "vanished" people as well who they felt were disruptive/troublemakers.

 If it sounds dystopian, you wouldn't be wrong.

Personally, even though I am a US citizen by birth, I don't feel safe travelling to China because I have been openly critical on social media about what's been happening in Hong Kong. I don't have the same right a non-Chinese American citizen has. China considers themselves to have authority over any overseas Chinese when within their borders.

And this is why people push back against mandates here.

The fear of authoritative overreach is real, and they think, "If we give them an inch, they'll take a mile." So they resist.

If the powers-that-be could speak to this concern--clearly, compellingly, unitedly--we might get somewhere. (I don't know exactly how that happens or what it looks like. Just helping identify one of the problems from where I observe.)

ETA: Should've put this in the Vaccine Divide thread.

Edited by Hyacinth
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, mathnerd said:

or not ... hard to know what the actual situation is where China is concerned. We only know what they want us to know from what I hear from my chinese immigrant friends.

My boss flew to China recently for work. He had to take THREE COVID tests, subject to another one rather invasive one there, and then spend two weeks in actual, literal quarantine--they took him (and the other travelers) from the airport to a hotel, where he stayed, by himself, with food deliveries, for the next fourteen days. And then he had to spend another week "self-isolating" before he was allowed to conduct his business. 

So, while I'm sure the numbers are massaged a bit, they do have VERY strict protocols in place. 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jrichstad said:

My boss flew to China recently for work. He had to take THREE COVID tests, subject to another one rather invasive one there, and then spend two weeks in actual, literal quarantine--they took him (and the other travelers) from the airport to a hotel, where he stayed, by himself, with food deliveries, for the next fourteen days. And then he had to spend another week "self-isolating" before he was allowed to conduct his business. 

So, while I'm sure the numbers are massaged a bit, they do have VERY strict protocols in place. 

Also, I'm pretty darn sure I wouldn't report or get tested in China unless I was just about dying, and maybe not even then.  I know too much about what happens to people who don't fit the ideal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

The fear of authoritative overreach is real, and they think, "If we give them an inch, they'll take a mile." So they resist.

I don’t know if that’s why people push back. I think realistically most people push back because someone they trust told them to.

Ironically, if our country was less divided about common sense disease control measures, we’d probably need fewer mandates.

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

And this is why people push back against mandates here.

The fear of authoritative overreach is real, and they think, "If we give them an inch, they'll take a mile." So they resist.

If the powers-that-be could speak to this concern--clearly, compellingly, unitedly--we might get somewhere. (I don't know exactly how that happens or what it looks like. Just helping identify one of the problems from where I observe.)

ETA: Should've put this in the Vaccine Divide thread.

They push back because Fearmongers have put out a narrative of "if we give them an inch, they'll take a mile". 

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Their numbers look amazing. Miraculous really. 

What they report looks good but honestly, who knows?  

My school district vastly under reports the number of times they use restraint or isolation with special education students.  They point to their good numbers but since they generate the numbers themselves and have redefined most forms of restraint and isolation as not restraint and isolation no one who is up close and personal with this issue puts any stock into it.  I don’t think China’s reports are necessarily accurate.  

Edited by LucyStoner
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

They push back because Fearmongers have put out a narrative of "if we give them an inch, they'll take a mile". 

I completely agree that there are plenty of self-serving and unhelpful people promoting this view.

That doesn't make it a completely invalid concern. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A school local to me is feeling out how parents feel about setting up classes for K-6 where all the students would be masked and the rest of the classrooms would not require masks. They aren't promising they will or won't at this point; they just want to know if the idea is feasible. 

I really hope enough parents opt-in to make this possible! I don't have kids in the district or kids young enough to not be vaccinated, but I think it's a really nice idea.

I wish my church had offered to have a masked services that was truly masked but voluntarily so (and held first before they polluted the auditorium with germs); instead they mandated but didn't enforce masking, so many people didn't mask (or they wore them in and then took them off). It would've been a nice compromise for this area.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a quick followup to China being able to data track...no one in China does any monetary transaction without their phone. It's all mobile payment like Allipay or WeChat. This is also why they know exactly where you are and what you are doing.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, calbear said:

Just a quick followup to China being able to data track...no one in China does any monetary transaction without their phone. It's all mobile payment like Allipay or WeChat. This is also why they know exactly where you are and what you are doing.

Are there not people in China who don't have phones?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

I completely agree that there are plenty of self-serving and unhelpful people promoting this view.

That doesn't make it a completely invalid concern. 

While I agree there might be some small amount of validity to the concern, I do find it hard to understand some people’s supposed grave concern about something that might maybe theoretically possibly happen in the future (eg US imposing China like restrictions and monitoring) all the while embracing leaders who continue to lie about a stolen election, a direct threat to our democracy and freedoms that actually happened and continues to this day.

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Are there not people in China who don't have phones?

Maybe in rural areas...but not really. There about 1.6 billion cell phone accounts in China. The population is almost 1.4 billion.

It's super common to see people with multiple phones.

 

Edited by calbear
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

I can't see it.  What did it say?

This is the first 3 paragraphs:
 

The delta variant of the coronavirus appears to cause more severe illness than earlier variants and spreads as easily as chickenpox, according to an internal federal health document that argues officials must “acknowledge the war has changed.”

 

The document is an internal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention slide presentation, shared within the CDC and obtained by The Washington Post. It captures the struggle of the nation’s top public health agency to persuade the public to embrace vaccination and prevention measures, including mask-wearing, as cases surge across the United States and new research suggests vaccinated people can spread the virus.

The document strikes an urgent note, revealing the agency knows it must revamp its public messaging to emphasize vaccination as the best defense against a variant so contagious that it acts almost like a different novel virus, leaping from target to target more swiftly than Ebola or the common cold.

The rest of the article covers what is written about in this article without a paywall. Primarily about Provinctown, MA outbreak and the unpublished viral load data.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/cdc-mask-decision-followed-stunning-204900053.html
 

 

Edited by calbear
  • Sad 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And a later para: It cites a combination of recently obtained, still-unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.

  • Sad 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...