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At what point would you lock down again?


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2 hours ago, mathnerd said:

In the Indian Cricket Tournaments that were super-spreaders of Delta, there were tens of thousands in outdoors venues, without social distancing and almost zero masking. Most used crowded public transit to get to the stadium and I am assuming that many used the restrooms and probably ate at the concession stands - which would make the transmission "indoors" even though the event was held outside. 

(When we talk about high levels of safety in doing outdoor activities, to me, it translates to: going outdoors to a venue like a trail, park or beach, keeping my distance from others, wearing a mask if I feel uncomfortable, doing the activity and going home to eat or use the restroom.)

Culturally, people in India tend to be comfortable being right on top of each other.  It's a lot different from what US people find comfortable, even without Covid considerations.  Even US kids on a playground rarely get that close on purpose.

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

Culturally, people in India tend to be comfortable being right on top of each other.  It's a lot different from what US people find comfortable, even without Covid considerations.  Even US kids on a playground rarely get that close on purpose.

This makes me so nervous about our swim tournaments.  I am glad the season is ending.  I have kept my kids back from the crowd but still.  

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3 hours ago, Lecka said:

I have seen Springfield, MO mentioned in national news so it seems believable to me.  

what seems believable?

Springfield and SW MO is a disaster. They're shipping patients a hundred miles to smaller hospitals and fill the ICU there. Numbers are bad like in January.

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17 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Cases in Manhattan have tripled in the last few weeks: it was under 50 for quite a while, and the numbers I see on my tracker today is 137. Positivity is now above a percent. 

I'm feeling pretty depressed about the whole thing 😕 . 

Yep. Same here. I am in denial. Head in the sand. Refusing to look. Refusing to acknowledge the reality. I don’t want to. 

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Yep. Same here. I am in denial. Head in the sand. Refusing to look. Refusing to acknowledge the reality. I don’t want to. 

I don’t think we should look at cases anymore.

I didn’t voluntarily lock up before and I won’t now. 

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3 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

Sure.  As to whether you should lock down, I don’t think they’re telling you much. 

I love how New Yorkers view it as voluntary. We in CA are just waiting for our state to issue orders. I didn’t think much was voluntary in my Covid choices over the past year. 

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7 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I love how New Yorkers view it as voluntary. We in CA are just waiting for our state to issue orders. I didn’t think much was voluntary in my Covid choices over the past year. 

NYC had like a quarter of the city with antibodies. You sure you wanna trade?

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13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

NYC had like a quarter of the city with antibodies. You sure you wanna trade?


yep, I will trade. 

Well, we have fewer people than trees here, yet the directives were the same as if I were in Los Angeles.
Some of the decisions made on the local level were downright idiotic, like shutting off access to hiking trails from my neighborhood because they couldn’t police  river banks, and therefore a possibility of several teenagers congregating and drinking somewhere was (as if in my rural corner such opportunities were limited to state parks) posing a greater danger from Covid spread than locking up trails and forcing everybody local and tourist into the few ones open and causing overcrowding. 

I don’t want to be at the mercy of my county employees. I want to be able to make my own decisions at this point. 

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Just now, Roadrunner said:


yep, I will trade. 

Well, we have fewer people than trees here, yet the directives were the same as if I were in Los Angeles.
Some of the decisions made on the local level were downright idiotic, like shutting off access to hiking trails from my neighborhood because they couldn’t police  river banks, and therefore a possibility of several teenagers congregating and drinking somewhere was (as if in my rural corner such opportunities were limited to state parks) posing a greater danger from Covid spread than locking up trails and forcing everybody local and tourist into the few ones open and causing overcrowding. 

I don’t want to be at the mercy of my county employees. I want to be able to make my own decisions at this point. 

Locking up trails is dumb. Are they still locked up?

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7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Locking up trails is dumb. Are they still locked up?

Not anymore. We essentially stayed home when the virus broke out because they shut down most parks and trails causing such overcrowding in areas that were open, that nobody in the right mind would want to be out there. 
You can’t believe the stupid on a county/local level. It’s amazing to watch their decision making. I have decided their ability to reason is limited to lists. They must have a list in their hands where they can check off things. If they can’t see some box to check, they can’t function. They can’t problem solve in real situations. 

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8 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Not anymore. We essentially stayed home when the virus broke out because they shut down most parks and trails causing such overcrowding in areas that were open, that nobody in the right mind would want to be out there. 
You can’t believe the stupid on a county/local level. It’s amazing to watch their decision making. I have decided their ability to reason is limited to lists. They must have a list in their hands where they can check off things. If they can’t see some box to check, they can’t function. They can’t problem solve in real situations. 

Most people can't, it's true. 

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On 7/16/2021 at 2:24 PM, KSera said:

Almost a year and a half in, and I still can’t figure out why masks are such a major deal for some people. It’s weird. 

 

I think this is an important point. There are a goodly number of people who feel like this. They just don't mind the masks.

But they really do bother a lot of people, and are a real impediment to their social life and interactions. They find them uncomfortable, they mean they can't hear, they can't interpret expressions. It becomes an effort to engage in a real conversation.

I've actually given up going to the farmer's market since masking has been required. I went a few times, but the combination of ambient noise and not being able to see people's faces meant I struggled to hear and had to repeatedly ask people to repeat themselves and was asked to do so as well. Having a conversation, which was half the appeal of going, was simply impossible in that situation. I also find it difficult in my job, which involves public service, often speaking to elderly people.

The main point being that it makes all social interactions in public spaces unsatisfying and even a little unpleasant. I think this is just one more thing that's impacted people's mental health and sense of connectedness to others.

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Just to add to that - yes, I think that authorities are trying to use masking as a way to allow more freedom in other ways.

But I would say that it's very limited. In my own self, I've stopped going to public indoor events unless I have to. I don't g to concerts. I've put off finding FT work outside my home until later in part because I don't want to mask that often. The kids at school hate it and want to avoid it.

For many people it simply isn't a nothing that allows them to behave as normal.

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1 hour ago, SlowRiver said:

I think this is an important point. There are a goodly number of people who feel like this. They just don't mind the masks.

Just to clarify, I don’t even mean that I don’t mind masks. I don’t like wearing a mask and am very glad I no longer need to outside and will be glad when I don’t need to inside. But while I don’t like them, we’re in the middle of a pandemic that has killed over 600,000 Americans. In that context, I don’t know why masks have been so many people’s bridge to die on. Yeah, they suck a little, but pandemic.

On the practical side, there are masks that don’t muffle speaking. I found needing to speak to someone in public much more comfortable when I switched from my heavy duty multi layer cloth to a KF94. It doesn’t muffle my voice and is very easy to breathe in. 

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16 hours ago, Lecka said:

Grrrr, there is an area at the corner of Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, and Arkansas that has the top 10 counties for hospitalizations right now 😞. I am following a new Facebook page from that area.  
 

It is so sad 😞

And that is very near me. 

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

Just to clarify, I don’t even mean that I don’t mind masks. I don’t like wearing a mask and am very glad I no longer need to outside and will be glad when I don’t need to inside. But while I don’t like them, we’re in the middle of a pandemic that has killed over 600,000 Americans. In that context, I don’t know why masks have been so many people’s bridge to die on. Yeah, they suck a little, but pandemic.

On the practical side, there are masks that don’t muffle speaking. I found needing to speak to someone in public much more comfortable when I switched from my heavy duty multi layer cloth to a KF94. It doesn’t muffle my voice and is very easy to breathe in. 

I haven't had trouble talking in a Happy Mask, either. And my kids have had whole playdates with their masks on at this point. Do they love it? No. Is it worth it? Yes. 

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I can sit for several hours at a concert with a mask or a plane. I can put it on for 30 minutes to run around the store. If I have to spend long periods of time in a mask while walking and/or talking, I will simply opt out of the activity. 

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12 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I can sit for several hours at a concert with a mask or a plane. I can put it on for 30 minutes to run around the store. If I have to spend long periods of time in a mask while walking and/or talking, I will simply opt out of the activity. 

Well, we did that for a while, but at this point I’d like my kids to both have friends and not get sick.

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On 7/17/2021 at 11:07 AM, SKL said:

I also think it isn't totally logical to compare before and after Covid numbers, because there are always so many people walking around with relatively mild symptoms of undiagnosed unwellness.  Even at doctor visits, many people don't remember all the symptoms they've been meaning to mention.  But they might be more likely to report them in a [post-Covid] study set up to better capture such things.  Just because they are reporting them now doesn't mean Covid infection was always the cause.

My kids and I haven't had Covid (we had antibody checks), but we've had most of the symptoms of long Covid.  Some of it is because of Covid disrupting everything.  How we wouldn't have gotten tired and depressed last summer, I don't know.  Many of the activities that have served to support our physical and mental health were taken away, replaced by new reasons for fear and anxiety.  It would not be at all surprising for people diagnosed with Covid to respond even more intensely to these things, as they don't have the option of looking away (a very common response to bad news).

Also potentially confounding is the potential for a sort of nocebo effect. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22833756/

If you have read and heard a lot of stories about long-tail symptoms, and have some subconscious anxiety about developing them,  you might be more aware of any symptoms and to interpret them as secondary to your Covid infection. The mind is powerful. 
Some of the surveys and stories last year included people who had tested negative for PCR and antibodies, but still were sure they had had Covid and were experiencing long haul symptoms because of Covid.

I’ll add as I always try to do, that this doesn’t mean I think long Covid is ALL in people’s heads or that there aren’t people suffering because of real physiologic issues due to Covid. It’s just so very messy right now that it’s hard to say what the extent of this is.

 

 

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4 hours ago, SlowRiver said:

I think this is an important point. There are a goodly number of people who feel like this. They just don't mind the masks.

But they really do bother a lot of people, and are a real impediment to their social life and interactions. They find them uncomfortable, they mean they can't hear, they can't interpret expressions. It becomes an effort to engage in a real conversation.

I've actually given up going to the farmer's market since masking has been required. I went a few times, but the combination of ambient noise and not being able to see people's faces meant I struggled to hear and had to repeatedly ask people to repeat themselves and was asked to do so as well. Having a conversation, which was half the appeal of going, was simply impossible in that situation. I also find it difficult in my job, which involves public service, often speaking to elderly people.

The main point being that it makes all social interactions in public spaces unsatisfying and even a little unpleasant. I think this is just one more thing that's impacted people's mental health and sense of connectedness to others.

But the alternative would be not to have in-person interactions at all. Interacting only online, with no in person human contact, affects mental health much more severely than wearing a mask for a few hours a day.

Did I love wearing a mask for teaching since last fall? No, but it was a million times better than another semester of only online interactions. Wearing masks was the price we paid to have live classes on campus. My students very gladly wore their masks rather than being forced to sit in front of a computer. The mental health fallout of the all-online spring was grave.

Edited by regentrude
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2 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Also potentially confounding is the potential for a sort of nocebo effect. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22833756/

If you have read and heard a lot of stories about long-tail symptoms, and have some subconscious anxiety about developing them,  you might be more aware of any symptoms and to interpret them as secondary to your Covid infection. The mind is powerful. 
Some of the surveys and stories last year included people who had tested negative for PCR and antibodies, but still were sure they had had Covid and were experiencing long haul symptoms because of Covid.

I’ll add as I always try to do, that this doesn’t mean I think long Covid is ALL in people’s heads or that there aren’t people suffering because of real physiologic issues due to Covid. It’s just so very messy right now that it’s hard to say what the extent of this is.

I’d think this, except that there are people with long COVID on this forum, and the symptoms sounded easily identifiable and weird. And they didn’t at all seem to be in people who were prone to imagining things.

When it comes to things like this, I do find case studies helpful.

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7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’d think this, except that there are people with long COVID on this forum, and the symptoms sounded easily identifiable and weird. And they didn’t at all seem to be in people who were prone to imagining things.

When it comes to things like this, I do find case studies helpful.

It was so reassuring to hear my husband of 25 years state clearly to extended family that there was no way this was in my head or anxiety.  He knows me best and knows I don't slow down for anything.  It's only my physical limitations holding me back.  

Edited by busymama7
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16 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Also potentially confounding is the potential for a sort of nocebo effect. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22833756/

If you have read and heard a lot of stories about long-tail symptoms, and have some subconscious anxiety about developing them,  you might be more aware of any symptoms and to interpret them as secondary to your Covid infection. The mind is powerful. 
Some of the surveys and stories last year included people who had tested negative for PCR and antibodies, but still were sure they had had Covid and were experiencing long haul symptoms because of Covid.

I’ll add as I always try to do, that this doesn’t mean I think long Covid is ALL in people’s heads or that there aren’t people suffering because of real physiologic issues due to Covid. It’s just so very messy right now that it’s hard to say what the extent of this is.

 

 

My young 20’s friends who now have heart problems after having had Covid are not imagining a thing. Or who now can’t climb a flight of stairs without gasping for breath. That isn’t all in their head either. 

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2 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

It was so reassuring to hear my husband of 25 years state clearly to extended family that there was no way this was in my head or anxiety.  He knows me best and knows I don't slow down for anything.  It's only my physical limitations holding me back.  

I would find the idea that this is all psychological incredibly disheartening 😕 . 

To be honestly, I used to think that about CFS. I'm really embarrassed about that now. 

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3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I would find the idea that this is all psychological incredibly disheartening 😕 . 

To be honestly, I used to think that about CFS. I'm really embarrassed about that now. 

As someone with chronic pain and fatigue and illness I am particularly prickly about the “all in your head” thing. While there might be some who seek attention, the majority of us led vibrant active lives which have been (often) suddenly and violently curtailed. I wouldn’t wish this on my worst enemy and it concerns me that we might have a generation that has increased long term chronic illness as a result of this virus. 

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, we did that for a while, but at this point I’d like my kids to both have friends and not get sick.

I would ask them. If it doesn't bother them, and you think masks are the way to go, put them on indoors. I still wouldn't mask outside, not unless NY ends up (hopefully not) in a massive surge like Missouri or Florida. 

My son is now telling me he doesn't want to go to the camp because he has to be in a mask for 6-7 hours indoors. He says he would rather stay home. I wish he had said that before I paid $1K, by oh well. He is vaccinated, but masks are required indoors for this camp even with vaccination record. 

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9 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I would ask them. If it doesn't bother them, and you think masks are the way to go, put them on indoors. I still wouldn't mask outside, not unless NY ends up (hopefully not) in a massive surge like Missouri or Florida. 

Ask them what? Whether they'd rather have friends or mask? I'm not asking them that. I'm sorry, but I'm the adult, and I happen to think that I am a better judge of what's more important in this case. 

 

9 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

My son is now telling me he doesn't want to go to the camp because he has to be in a mask for 6-7 hours indoors. He says he would rather stay home. I wish he had said that before I paid $1K, by oh well. He is vaccinated, but masks are required indoors for this camp even with vaccination record. 

Maybe you could try a few masks until he finds one that works better for him? 

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My high-school-age son is just over masks on a level that is not about comfort or anything.  Oh, he will wear it, no “actual” big deal.

But he has feelings that it really limits his social interactions to a point he barely wants to bother.

My 12yos just do not feel this way.  They are not as aware of it as an issue for them, and they are maybe more comfortable anyways?  It’s just easier for them?

If it was people he might have a shot at getting to know, despite the masks, maybe my older son would bother.  But if he thinks he will be limited anyways, he thinks “why bother.”

My 12yos just do not feel this way.  They don’t care.  It is only about “oh I need to wear a mask” and nothing deeper.  No complaint greater than eyeglasses fogging for one (we changed style), and worry about forgetting for the other.  

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Just now, Lecka said:

My high-school-age son is just over masks on a level that is not about comfort or anything.  Oh, he will wear it, no “actual” big deal.

But he has feelings that it really limits his social interactions to a point he barely wants to bother.

Interesting. Does this apply to friends he already has or new people? 

 

Just now, Lecka said:

My 12yos just do not feel this way.  They are not as aware of it as an issue for them, and they are maybe more comfortable anyways?  It’s just easier for them?

If it was people he might have a shot at getting to know, despite the masks, maybe my older son would bother.  But if he thinks he will be limited anyways, he thinks “why bother.”

My 12yos just do not feel this way.  They don’t care.  It is only about “oh I need to wear a mask” and nothing deeper.  No complaint greater than eyeglasses fogging for one (we changed style), and worry about forgetting for the other.  

Interesting. 

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I think it matters whether there is a stage where kids are pretty happy to talk to anybody or play with anybody;  or, if they are wanting to find the kids where they fit in and particularly want to talk to those kids.

I think for the second thing, they feel the masks more.  

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We moved from Upstate New York to Oklahoma last July, so he started school here not knowing anyone.  He has, overall, gotten a lot closer with his friends he used to know in person who have a Discord channel, and are spread out a bit now (as his school in New York was 80% military).  
 

Edit:  he has met a handful of kids here, most through one activity, that he has decided not to continue next year because it is an insane time commitment.  
 

Edit:  and to be fair, he is slightly difficult 😉

Edited by Lecka
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My 16yo has the perspective to say “did anything like this happen to you and Dad?”  He has the perspective to be aware of things like national politics.  He has opinions that where we live right now, things he did were very strict and made it hard for him to meet anyone (before teachers were vaccinated), while many sports activities were extremely lax with precautions.  (Edit:  his main extracurricular was very, very curtailed and was cancelled in the Fall semester, etc. it was allowed to proceed in a limited way in the Spring semester…. But the program is very set back because a lot of kids are very frustrated with how it was able to operate during Covid, with lots of work with very limited payoff compared to in a normal year.)


Everything seemed to get better after teachers were vaccinated, he started talking to more kids etc.  
 

But he also moved from a high school of about 800 students 9th-12th, to a school with about 2,000 students 9th-12th, and he had been in the previous district since 6th grade and had a lot of friends there.

So it’s hard to say. 

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16 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I think it matters whether there is a stage where kids are pretty happy to talk to anybody or play with anybody;  or, if they are wanting to find the kids where they fit in and particularly want to talk to those kids.

I think for the second thing, they feel the masks more.  

It's possible? My college-aged sister doesn't seem to mind masks much. It might be partially just personality. 

I think older kids also have an easier time having mostly online relationships. So there are ups and downs. 

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Oh, I definitely agree there is personality involved!  
 

I have a niece who is not bothered at all, and the other niece is bothered but it’s less than for my son.  
 

My son made a friend who was in the activity who also moved (between 8th and 9th, changing custody from his dad to his mom at the same time), and he was bothered by masks.  But also had a big move, moved to a different household, and is also someone whom I think would have a harder time with moving like that than average in the best of times.  

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1 minute ago, Lecka said:

Oh, I definitely agree there is personality involved!  
 

I have a niece who is not bothered at all, and the other niece is bothered but it’s less than for my son.  

 But it's true that younger kids are simply more flexible. 

I think a lot of kids wind up disliking masks because they absorb the attitude from their parents. If their parents think it's an onerous ordeal, they feel differently about masks than they would otherwise. (We have some friends like this.) 

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Honestly I think everyone I know has been really invested in making the mask thing as positive as possible for kids.  
 

It’s too bad there are kids picking up an attitude 😞
 

I mean, I don’t love it, and will try to validate feelings,  but I think it’s just one more thing where it is worth it as a parent to try to make things as positive as possible. 
 

Sigh.  

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37 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ask them what? Whether they'd rather have friends or mask? I'm not asking them that. I'm sorry, but I'm the adult, and I happen to think that I am a better judge of what's more important in this case. 

 

Maybe you could try a few masks until he finds one that works better for him? 

He prefers surgical masks. He just still finds them irritating after an hour or so. I guess that’s another thing. Masking for 1-2 hours isn’t the same thing as masking for 7-8 almost nonstop. 
My kids have always been fairly verbal about their preferences. 

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3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

He prefers surgical masks. He just still finds them irritating after an hour or so. I guess that’s another thing. Masking for 1-2 hours isn’t the same thing as masking for 7-8 almost nonstop. 
My kids have always been fairly verbal about their preferences. 

I guess if I were you, I'd see if there's a way to tweak them to be bearable for longer. 

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