Introducing my sister . .

[gardenmom5]

to the concept we had a covert narcissist in our family.  She brought up our "toxic" brother.  I have strong opinions on his pathology, and where it came from . . . 

I basically asked her "what do you know about narcissism, et et. etc.".  and hinted that he's a narcissist (I do feel sorry for him, but I'm not going to allow him to treat me with disrespect just because he's been cut off by his children, and his sisters. And had two ugly divorces.  Trying to put out feelers, get the idea in her head.  I pointed her to Dr. Ramani (thank you to whomever brought her up in a previous thread.) in hopes she'll maybe listen to some of her videos . . . 

 

Any tips?

[Carrie12345]

Tips for convincing her?  Not really.  
If she looks into the resources and ideas you’re sharing, it may eventually click.  
That said, it took dh years to fully acknowledge there was a narc in the family. It was a lot for him to take in.  But he did read and watch things that helped him get there.

[Slache]

I recommended her. 

I think generally narcs won't acknowledge that they're narcs because they can't. They view the world incorrectly, giving them a false reality in which they really are the victim and hero. As an example my MIL actually believes her daughter and 4 DILs are mentally ill, so any issue we might have is due to that, anything her sons or SIL say against her they only say for their wives and she is completely innocent. I have an email chain where my husband says you have done A, B, and C and she said A didn't happen, B was your fault, and Slache is lying about C because she's crazy. He remembers all of A, B, and C, but when he told her that she said "It's ok. I know you know that's not true. I know you're only siding with Slache to keep the peace," but I was never a part of it. She's altered her reality, despite what's actually in the email, because she can't handle it.

The Narcissist's Prayer, author unknown

That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.

[Halftime Hope]

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

to the concept we had a covert narcissist in our family.  She brought up our "toxic" brother.  I have strong opinions on his pathology, and where it came from . . . 

I basically asked her "what do you know about narcissism, et et. etc.".  and hinted that he's a narcissist (I do feel sorry for him, but I'm not going to allow him to treat me with disrespect just because he's been cut off by his children, and his sisters. And had two ugly divorces.  Trying to put out feelers, get the idea in her head.  I pointed her to Dr. Ramani (thank you to whomever brought her up in a previous thread.) in hopes she'll maybe listen to some of her videos . . . 

 

Any tips?

Why didn't you tell her directly that you believe he is a narcissist?  (you don't have to answer.) 

[Indigo Blue]

Honestly, I don’t know if you can paint a clear picture of someone who is NPD to another person who is not, when the latter person hasn’t experienced what you have. Even within the same immediate family living under the same roof, an NPD can give different people different versions of themselves. (It’s quite amazing). Your sister would need to be completely open to trying to understand and believe the reality of another person who has experienced narc abuse. Even so, she may never truly understand. 

I agree with just being direct and asking her if she’s willing to hear you out and possibly learn more. 
 

[gardenmom5]

13 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

Why didn't you tell her directly that you believe he is a narcissist?  (you don't have to answer.) 

My reluctance is getting into the history, that our grandmother was a covert narcissist (our brother was "the golden child", and he never got past that.  He still thinks that's how he should be treated.).  And to talk about him - means talking about *her*.

My observations were - sister was the "favorite - victim". (I was either invisible or the scapegoat).  She was frequently undermined, so grandmother could "rescue her".  up to a mild version of munchausen by proxy.  (Dr Ramani just did a video on the subject.  Oh yeah, I've seen this story before . . . . ., almost all of it . . .).  So, getting into it would also be, "btw: you were psychologically abused by a narcissist."

from my own experience - that when it was first brought up to me (by a therapist). my immediate response was to deny it.  She assigned me the task of "writing a letter".  Ok, I wasn't expecting that to come out . . . It resulted in a huge paradigm shift in how I saw her forever after.   When I really started learning about narcissism - things completely fell into place.

My question is more for - how to encourage the paradigm shift?  she had questions (not about narcissism, I don't think she knows very much about it). . . so, how much do I go into?  And how?

It's been helpful to know what are typical reactions of victims of narcissistic abuse to the various types of mind games.  Things that made me think I was a bad person - were typical responses for victims of narcissistic abuse.   

[Halftime Hope]

33 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

My reluctance is getting into the history, that our grandmother was a covert narcissist (our brother was "the golden child", and he never got past that.  He still thinks that's how he should be treated.).  And to talk about him - means talking about *her*.

My observations were - sister was the "favorite - victim". (I was either invisible or the scapegoat).  She was frequently undermined, so grandmother could "rescue her".  up to a mild version of munchausen by proxy.  (Dr Ramani just did a video on the subject.  Oh yeah, I've seen this story before . . . . ., almost all of it . . .).  So, getting into it would also be, "btw: you were psychologically abused by a narcissist."

from my own experience - that when it was first brought up to me (by a therapist). my immediate response was to deny it.  She assigned me the task of "writing a letter".  Ok, I wasn't expecting that to come out . . . It resulted in a huge paradigm shift in how I saw her forever after.   When I really started learning about narcissism - things completely fell into place.

My question is more for - how to encourage the paradigm shift?  she had questions (not about narcissism, I don't think she knows very much about it). . . so, how much do I go into?  And how?

It's been helpful to know what are typical reactions of victims of narcissistic abuse to the various types of mind games.  Things that made me think I was a bad person - were typical responses for victims of narcissistic abuse.   

Got it...totally makes sense.  What comes through most strongly is your care and gentleness.  

[gardenmom5]

Just now, Halftime Hope said:

Got it...totally makes sense.  What comes through most strongly is your care and gentleness.  

thank you.  I even care about my brother - but I won't tolerate him treating me with disrespect.  boundaries . . . .