Viral Video: Nude man enters women's locker room.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, KSera said:

True. This is the case on both “sides”. I don’t see this as a political issue at all myself, though. I think it’s more appropriately approached as a medical (and mental health) issue, though things like bathrooms and all that are social issues, which tends to bring people’s politics into it. As far as @Ordinary Shoesposts, while I disagreed with her take throughout, she sounds open to learning now, and I’m more interested in helping her do that than on coming down on her for being wrong. Because again, I’m more interested in change than in one “side” or the other, and I think small conversations like these, on a wide scale, is how inroads might finally be made.  It’s kind of like when an anti vaxer decides to get the Covid vaccine—I’m not going to then berate them for how stupid they were not to have gotten it to that point. 

Then you're a better woman than me.

 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Then you're a better woman than me.

 

No, I’m sure there are other issues I would be the same way, but not this one. I’m still knee deep in hoping change comes soon enough for a whole passel of kids I care about. 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

No, I’m sure there are other issues I would be the same way, but not this one. I’m still knee deep in hoping change comes soon enough for a whole passel of kids I care about. 

Looking after my gender diverse kids for years in a way that maximised their health and ability to have as many adult choices left to them as possible, leaves me very little emotional space to be gracious to people who take  dissenting  experience so lightly they will use the topic to troll those they don't like. 

 

 

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Looking after my gender diverse kids for years in a way that maximised their health and ability to have as many adult choices left to them as possible, leaves me very little emotional space to be gracious to people who take  dissenting  experience so lightly they will use the topic to troll those they don't like. 

 

 

Yeah. I’m still in the middle of that with at least one kid who has already closed some doors. Hoping to prevent more doors from closing and the same for a number of other kids currently on the path. 

[Melissa Louise]

28 minutes ago, KSera said:

Yeah. I’m still in the middle of that with at least one kid who has already closed some doors. Hoping to prevent more doors from closing and the same for a number of other kids currently on the path. 

Good luck. 

I am pretty sure the trolling was not directed at you. 

[SKL]

22 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

I didn't have much of a take throughout this thread. I just went back through my posts on this thread to see if I voiced any opinions other than my suspicions that this was a hoax. Here are my posts up through when I admitted that I shouldn't have posted about how it might have been a hoax. 

I shouldn't have posted about it being a hoax but it's not fair to accuse me of holding dissenting opinions on this subject. If you look through my posts you'll see that I didn't express any strong opinions. In fact, I wrote several times that I didn't know how I felt. 

BTW, the people who think I was "trolling" them aren't the people I was engaged with on this thread. 

 

Yeah, ironically, I said this to you:

"I don't know if this happened or not, and neither do you.  But you've spent this entire thread, and others, shooting down other people's views / ideas without proposing any real support for your own, if you even have any."

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I have a friend who is a trans woman, and we had a conversation once about their use of women's restrooms.  The argument made to me was, "I feel very unsafe in men's rooms now," rather than, "I want to be all cozy and included with the girls."

I described the statistics on sexual assault of women and girls, gave a few examples from my circle of friends' experience, and made the case that this kind of mixing in a public restroom makes at least a large minority if not majority of DFAB women and girls feel very unsafe.  And that I thought that the better solution for all would be nongendered single person at a time 'pod' public bathrooms.

My friend said that going into a public women's room for the first time was a comfortable and very welcoming experience.  And at that point I pretty much gave up and exited the conversation gracefully.  My friend was feeling pretty fragile, so I did not feel comfortable saying what I was absolutely sure was true--that it's very common for women and girls to try to act natural and warm when they are scared, to deflect a possible threat that cannot be overcome, and that facing a DMAB who is muscular and over 6 feet tall would engender that response even if a dress and pumps were the mode of attire.  IOW, Dude had no idea how intimidating this action was, and was literally incapable of imagining this.

It just goes to show how different growing up desperately wanting to be female is from growing up female.  I have a great deal of sympathy for this person, but it did not cut both ways until I explained it, and even then, I felt I needed to hold back.

 

 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I have a friend who is a trans woman, and we had a conversation once about their use of women's restrooms.  The argument made to me was, "I feel very unsafe in men's rooms now," rather than, "I want to be all cozy and included with the girls."

I described the statistics on sexual assault of women and girls, gave a few examples from my circle of friends' experience, and made the case that this kind of mixing in a public restroom makes at least a large minority if not majority of DFAB women and girls feel very unsafe.  And that I thought that the better solution for all would be nongendered single person at a time 'pod' public bathrooms.

My friend said that going into a public women's room for the first time was a comfortable and very welcoming experience.  And at that point I pretty much gave up and exited the conversation gracefully.  My friend was feeling pretty fragile, so I did not feel comfortable saying what I was absolutely sure was true--that it's very common for women and girls to try to act natural and warm when they are scared, to deflect a possible threat that cannot be overcome, and that facing a DMAB who is muscular and over 6 feet tall would engender that response even if a dress and pumps were the mode of attire.  IOW, Dude had no idea how intimidating this action was, and was literally incapable of imagining this.

It just goes to show how different growing up desperately wanting to be female is from growing up female.  I have a great deal of sympathy for this person, but it did not cut both ways until I explained it, and even then, I felt I needed to hold back.

 

 

I can see this. Being female now was not their lived experience during their formative years when these fight or flight responses and risk analysis perceptions were formed. It would be very scary for so many women. 

I want a world where we love people and try to make it possible for folks to live in harmony. I have a trans male in my life, a former honorary daughter situation, and I too think the best solution is to convert as many bathrooms, locker rooms, and changing areas to single use space as possible. He doesn't feel particularly safe in the male bathrooms. Remodeling bathroom space is expensive. But it is dollars well spent!

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Good luck. 

I am pretty sure the trolling was not directed at you. 

Yeah, and if you’re the one being referred to, I can see having a different reaction than the one I had. Saying she doesn’t like or respect whoever it is (which in more recent posts sounds like it’s not you), does not engender warm, fuzzy feelings.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

it's not fair to accuse me of holding dissenting opinions on this subject.

I didn’t intend it as an accusation (I expect most people who hold a dissenting opinion feel they are right, so would not consider it an accusation), but I did get an impression you had said more than you apparently had. I guess it was a sense I got from the overall tone, though the one post which linked to the “anti-trans hate” story gave a very definite vibe just by virtue of that headline. 

[BusyMom5]

12 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I have a friend who is a trans woman, and we had a conversation once about their use of women's restrooms.  The argument made to me was, "I feel very unsafe in men's rooms now," rather than, "I want to be all cozy and included with the girls."

I described the statistics on sexual assault of women and girls, gave a few examples from my circle of friends' experience, and made the case that this kind of mixing in a public restroom makes at least a large minority if not majority of DFAB women and girls feel very unsafe.  And that I thought that the better solution for all would be nongendered single person at a time 'pod' public bathrooms.

My friend said that going into a public women's room for the first time was a comfortable and very welcoming experience.  And at that point I pretty much gave up and exited the conversation gracefully.  My friend was feeling pretty fragile, so I did not feel comfortable saying what I was absolutely sure was true--that it's very common for women and girls to try to act natural and warm when they are scared, to deflect a possible threat that cannot be overcome, and that facing a DMAB who is muscular and over 6 feet tall would engender that response even if a dress and pumps were the mode of attire.  IOW, Dude had no idea how intimidating this action was, and was literally incapable of imagining this.

It just goes to show how different growing up desperately wanting to be female is from growing up female.  I have a great deal of sympathy for this person, but it did not cut both ways until I explained it, and even then, I felt I needed to hold back.

 

 

This is misogyny.  If faced with an obviously male person in a restroom, I would be extra polite to them FOR MY SAFETY and I would consider them a potential threat.  That doesn't mean I am judging them or their lifestyle or that I think they will hurt me- its me doing what women always do- what we teach our girls to do- and that is to get out safely by assessing risk and adjusting my outward appearance. 

My husband was pretty clueless as to what it feels like to be vulnerable as a woman until our girls were in their teens.  He realized how physically useless we are against a male who wants to be violent, grab us, touch us, follow us- even if we do nothing to invite that attention.   Having teen girls driving, going out in public, it changes your perception.   My DH is a well muscled guy, if someone threatens him he can bull right back up.  Women can't do that.  

[Carol in Cal.]

27 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

This is misogyny.  If faced with an obviously male person in a restroom, I would be extra polite to them FOR MY SAFETY and I would consider them a potential threat.  That doesn't mean I am judging them or their lifestyle or that I think they will hurt me- its me doing what women always do- what we teach our girls to do- and that is to get out safely by assessing risk and adjusting my outward appearance. 

My husband was pretty clueless as to what it feels like to be vulnerable as a woman until our girls were in their teens.  He realized how physically useless we are against a male who wants to be violent, grab us, touch us, follow us- even if we do nothing to invite that attention.   Having teen girls driving, going out in public, it changes your perception.   My DH is a well muscled guy, if someone threatens him he can bull right back up.  Women can't do that.  

Right, exactly what I thought.  

[LucyStoner]

On 9/2/2021 at 12:47 PM, Tanaqui said:

So... it wasn't a hoax, but also nobody was trans and as a result at least two people WERE hurt (stabbed) in anti-trans violence connected to this video.

Might I suggest that a better use for everybody's time and money would be just putting up some darn stalls with curtains? They don't take up *that* much space.

Have you ever been to a Korean spa?  This wasn’t a locker room situation IIRC.  You sit in the soaking pool and the sauna areas in the nude.  Most don’t actually allow clothing in those areas, and it’s a social thing that would be lost if every space was single occupancy.  That is why they are traditionally sex segregated.  I go to one near me (not often, it’s an expensive treat) and it’s a woman’s only facility.  My friends and I affectionally call it the naked lady spa.  

As I guessed, it turns out this seems to have been male abusing the concept of self id.  He does now id as a woman but I don’t think I am alone in my skepticism that this is an authentic experience of gender dysphoria rather than a “if their mouths are moving, sex offenders are probably lying” thing.  
 

I think it would be good for people to be able to discuss the ramifications of self id without being called bigots.  Self id has negative implications for both biologically female persons and transgender people.  

Edited September 10, 2021 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

On 9/3/2021 at 1:59 PM, Melissa Louise said:

The spa would be breaking the law, as I understand it, if they 'made the rules clear'. 

That is the law here as well. I could legally be a man or neither a woman or a man in my state as soon as I could get an appointment at the DMV.  

I’m not vaguely right leaning and I have multiple trans family members and friends who I have and continue to provide meaningful support for (most of whom have similar concerns about self id etc).  I definitely don’t come at this issue with a sense of hatred or fear of transgender people.

This is an issue where I feel the left has lost the plot.  Doesn’t make me less lefty/liberal.  If trans is everything, it becomes nothing and certain things that those who do have serious gender dysphoria need *will be* in jeopardy, in addition to the clear issues for women’s spaces and athletics. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by LucyStoner

[LMD]

On the topic of males IDing as women and using their male bodies against females, what do you all think of the 2nd mtf to physically fight women in MMA? First we had Fallon Fox. Now we have a male ex US special forces sergeant with cPTSD punching and choking a female in front of a cheering crowd. I dunno, something about males literally beating women seems like a bad idea to me 🤷‍♀️

https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2021/09/mma-news-transgender-fighter-alana-mclaughlin-addresses-critics-combate-global

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by LMD

[WildflowerMom]

35 minutes ago, LMD said:

On the topic of males IDing as women and using their male bodies against females, what do you all think of the 2nd mtf to physically fight women in MMA? First we had fallen fox. Now we have a male ex US special forces sergeant with cPTSD punching and choking a female in front of a cheering crowd. I dunno, something about males literally beating women seems like a bad idea to me 🤷‍♀️

https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2021/09/mma-news-transgender-fighter-alana-mclaughlin-addresses-critics-combate-global

 

 

I think it's sick.  We've gone too far with this sh*t.  

[BusyMom5]

1 hour ago, LMD said:

On the topic of males IDing as women and using their male bodies against females, what do you all think of the 2nd mtf to physically fight women in MMA? First we had fallen fox. Now we have a male ex US special forces sergeant with cPTSD punching and choking a female in front of a cheering crowd. I dunno, something about males literally beating women seems like a bad idea to me 🤷‍♀️

https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2021/09/mma-news-transgender-fighter-alana-mclaughlin-addresses-critics-combate-global

 

 

I find it sickening that our society is encouraging MtF to play in any sport, and considering it fair.  This is just beyond my comprehension.  

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, LMD said:

On the topic of males IDing as women and using their male bodies against females, what do you all think of the 2nd mtf to physically fight women in MMA? First we had Fallon Fox. Now we have a male ex US special forces sergeant with cPTSD punching and choking a female in front of a cheering crowd. I dunno, something about males literally beating women seems like a bad idea to me 🤷‍♀️

https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2021/09/mma-news-transgender-fighter-alana-mclaughlin-addresses-critics-combate-global

 

 

Logical extension of conflating sex and gender identity. 

I can guarantee someone out there is saying ' but she (his opponent) chose to do it!'

There are ethical trans people out there, including ethical trans sports people. They play in their sex category. 

[LucyStoner]

6 hours ago, LMD said:

On the topic of males IDing as women and using their male bodies against females, what do you all think of the 2nd mtf to physically fight women in MMA? First we had Fallon Fox. Now we have a male ex US special forces sergeant with cPTSD punching and choking a female in front of a cheering crowd. I dunno, something about males literally beating women seems like a bad idea to me 🤷‍♀️

https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2021/09/mma-news-transgender-fighter-alana-mclaughlin-addresses-critics-combate-global

 

 

At least Alana is openly trans so her opponents can make that choice.  Fallon Fox didn’t disclose three plus decades of living as a man with male levels of testosterone.

Alana is 38 and just getting started.  35ish is usual retirement age in MMA for females.  Some are done by 30.  Laurel Hubbard (Olympic weightlifter) is 43.  That they are competing in these sports at these ages should be a sign that transwomen who have experienced male puberty have a huge competitive advantage in many sports.  

I find that most people who don’t see a problem with transwomen in women’s sports DGAF about sports at all and often are derisive about people who do love/follow sports.  

The novice boys crew team at my son’s school outstrips the varsity girls.  At the high school level in my state, NO medical steps or testosterone reduction is necessary for a trans athlete. This simply is not fair.  The ink wasn’t dry on Title 9 when I was born.  Women and girls as a class only recently won the right to access competitive sporting opportunities.  

Everything we do in life has opportunity costs.  Transitioning ended my brother’s softball career.  That was a choice that he made (BTW, he’s a huge women’s sports fan and is appalled by the push for transwomen to compete against women as if it’s a level playing field.) I would love to see more intramural, recreational and co-ed sporting opportunities.  But competitive levels of women’s sports for the most part need to be preserved as a single sex endeavor. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

5 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I can guarantee someone out there is saying ' but she (his opponent) chose to do it!'

MMA and Boxing are the only sports I can think of where you can chose your opponents.  Most athletes don’t have a choice.  I also know that the blow back for female athletes who express a view that biology matters for women’s sports is quite large and I seriously doubt that many active female athletes are really able to share their true view on the topic.  The performance differential is less in some sports but it is real and it takes a lot of science denialism to pretend that this is fair.  

Testoterone is a crazy advantage.  My husband has been to TWO CrossFit classes in the last week after being sedentary for most of the pandemic.  He’s lost 6 pounds without much dieting. My son started rowing crew recently and he’s developed visible pecs, large biceps and starting to get defined abs. How many of us ladies could say the same after a few weeks? 
 

 

[gardenmom5]

On 9/6/2021 at 9:59 AM, BusyMom5 said:

 

My husband was pretty clueless as to what it feels like to be vulnerable as a woman until our girls were in their teens.  He realized how physically useless we are against a male who wants to be violent, grab us, touch us, follow us- even if we do nothing to invite that attention.   Having teen girls driving, going out in public, it changes your perception.   My DH is a well muscled guy, if someone threatens him he can bull right back up.  Women can't do that.  

Martial arts is good for this - most males do not have martial arts training.

Family friend with a black belt in karate was working store security.  You can be the cops who came to the store to pick up the big guy she took down (while six months pregnant) made sure everyone in the jail knew he'd been taken down by a pregnant woman.

that said - gov't policies shouldn't be putting women in danger.

On 9/10/2021 at 1:56 PM, LucyStoner said:

 

This is an issue where I feel the left has lost the plot.  Doesn’t make me less lefty/liberal.  If trans is everything, it becomes nothing and certain things that those who do have serious gender dysphoria need *will be* in jeopardy, in addition to the clear issues for women’s spaces and athletics. 

Renee Richards has spoken out against this - with very little coverage. She has lived this, and now being older and wiser, regrets having pushed to be allowed to play in women's professional sports because she realizes how unfair it was for the biological women she played against.

and those biological differences are apparent in utero.

[Melissa Louise]

14 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

MMA and Boxing are the only sports I can think of where you can chose your opponents.  Most athletes don’t have a choice.  I also know that the blow back for female athletes who express a view that biology matters for women’s sports is quite large and I seriously doubt that many active female athletes are really able to share their true view on the topic.  The performance differential is less in some sports but it is real and it takes a lot of science denialism to pretend that this is fair.  

Testoterone is a crazy advantage.  My husband has been to TWO CrossFit classes in the last week after being sedentary for most of the pandemic.  He’s lost 6 pounds without much dieting. My son started rowing crew recently and he’s developed visible pecs, large biceps and starting to get defined abs. How many of us ladies could say the same after a few weeks? 
 

 

It's not just current levels of T, which can be reduced, though not to female levels,  but the lifetime effects of T on the male body.

If you go through a male puberty, you have massive sporting advantage. 

It's annoying to me that most on the left just go quiet about this. We were all about promoting women's sports 2 political seconds ago. Now it's all about ignoring literal unfairness where it can't be defended, and defending it where it's seen as palatable. 

I really hate this regressive moment we are in with regards to gender. 

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's not just current levels of T, which can be reduced, though not to female levels,  but the lifetime effects of T on the male body.

If you go through a male puberty, you have massive sporting advantage. 

It's annoying to me that most on the left just go quiet about this. We were all about promoting women's sports 2 political seconds ago. Now it's all about ignoring literal unfairness where it can't be defended, and defending it where it's seen as palatable. 

I really hate this regressive moment we are in with regards to gender. 

 

The physiological difference between male and female starts in utero.

it's not just hormones.  It's muscle mass.  it's bone structure. it's the lung capacity . . . 

you can see it on elementary school playgrounds - before any of them have gone through puberty.

[Dmmetler]

What I don't get is this-wouldn't it be more Woman power/girl power to prove that you can still hold your own with men after transitioning? Especially for individual sports like MMA? I mean, at best a win against a natal woman gets an asterisk by it. Whereas if you fought a man and won, that would be a triumph, and if you lost, it likely would still be seen as being a trans role model and all the stuff that this athlete claims to want to do. 

 

I can kind of understand kids who transition young and who are fully socially transitioned wanting to be accepted as one of the girls, but that seems a problem better addressed by having co-ed rec sports.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Dmmetler

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

What I don't get is this-wouldn't it be more Woman power/girl power to prove that you can still hold your own with men after transitioning? Especially for individual sports like MMA? I mean, at best a win against a natal woman gets an asterisk by it. Whereas if you fought a man and won, that would be a triumph, and if you lost, it likely would still be seen as being a trans role model and all the stuff that this athlete claims to want to do. 

 

I can kind of understand kids who transition young and who are fully socially transitioned wanting to be accepted as one of the girls, but that seems a problem better addressed by having co-ed rec sports.

Renee Richards wasn't that good of a player when pitted against men.  After being allowed to play against women - she dominated them.  

and frankly - even kids who transition young will still have traits associated with their biological sex.  (like muscle mass, bone structure, lung capacity,  - even vision differences in the ratio of cone and rods on the retina.)

even from infancy - re: David Reimer.  he was on female hormones from infancy, and was raised as a girl.  He eventually started insisting he was a boy - he knew nothing of what had been done to him until he was a teen/adult.  He eventually committed suicide.  That case was a travesty and the drs involved deserved to lose their medical licenses.

differences start in utero.

[Dmmetler]

There is significant natural variation within people who are classified male or female, too. Ultimately there is a place where everyone gets to play, and that's rec sports. For many years, the best player, by far, on my dad's over 40 co-ed softball team was a woman. Because while all of the guys had grown up playing little league and sandlot baseball, etc, she had actually been an all state level high school softball player and had played in college. Being male didn't give those guys an inherent advantage over a woman who had a higher level of training (and probably a lot more talent, too). 

 

I will happily keep pro sports and top level amateur sporta-anything with a cash prize, sponsorships, and televised, for natal males/females. I will even accept this for high school and top level travel sports, because college scholarships are important (although I would tend to have varsity as co-ed and have all girl teams as well, because a natal female player who CAN hold her own on a boy's basketball team is a lot more likely to be seen than one on a women's team-and some can). But there should always be rec options where anyone can play, regardless of skill, talent...or chromosomes. 

[Melissa Louise]

Rec sport needs to be open + female. There are sound reasons for female sport at a rec level, especially in the teenage years. One reason is that it's hard to get teen girls to participate in sport as it is. We don't need extra barriers. And for some groups of girls, the presence of males on their rec sport team WILL be a barrier, either for themselves personally, or for their families. 

Post puberty, safety issues also apply to rec sport as much as they do to elite sport. This will vary by sport, however, with contact sports being the major problem. 

Again, it's simply difficult to see why the expectation is that girls should budge up, in any context, disadvantaging themselves for the sake of others. It's not like they don't have a lifetime of it coming up. Could we at least leave them sport? 

[Melissa Louise]

Meanwhile, women getting kicked off Twitter for pointing out unfair male advantage. 

 

[Dmmetler]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Rec sport needs to be open + female. There are sound reasons for female sport at a rec level, especially in the teenage years. One reason is that it's hard to get teen girls to participate in sport as it is. We don't need extra barriers. And for some groups of girls, the presence of males on their rec sport team WILL be a barrier, either for themselves personally, or for their families. 

Post puberty, safety issues also apply to rec sport as much as they do to elite sport. This will vary by sport, however, with contact sports being the major problem. 

Again, it's simply difficult to see why the expectation is that girls should budge up, in any context, disadvantaging themselves for the sake of others. It's not like they don't have a lifetime of it coming up. Could we at least leave them sport? 

I'd love to see co-ed plus girls as a default for rec sports when there are enough people to reasonably have both teams, and enough funds to coach and run both teams equitably.  But what usually happens in my neck of the woods is that boys get a team and girls don't. And once you put in rules that don't let you play on a team other than your birth certificate gender, there is no longer an option for a girl to play baseball when softball is cancelled.  What I'm saying is needed is an awareness that there aren't always going to be enough people to have boys, girls, and co-ed teams, and if there aren't, co-ed needs to be the one formed first, because it is the only one that ensures all kids have the opportunity to play. Let's make sure every town has at least one coed team for each age band and THEN start adding gender-specific teams for those age groups where there are enough kids to justify them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Co-ed doesn't allow all girls to play though. I live in an area with many Muslim migrant families, and co-ed means they often are not able to participate in sport, particularly post puberty. 

And co-ed contact sports aren't safe as for females as female contact sports. 

It's ok to believe, on the balance, co-ed serves more kids, but if that's the only provision, it excludes a minority of females. 

 

[LMD]

Different circumstances might work well to have a discussion about compromises. The point is that women shouldn't be excoriated for advocating for their own boundaries. We can find fairer solutions if space is held for women to say no and trust that their no will be taken seriously. 

When the default response to women raising completely obvious and reasonable concerns, is shouts of bigot/terf and rape/death threats, I'm afraid the good will required for compromise is evaporated. As long as males insist on pushing the boundaries, then the boundaries must be buttressed.

The boundaries have been pushed so far that sex offenders are exposing themselves to children and males are choking out females and people are still saying women need to be nicer and find a compromise.

[Meriwether]

Edited to remove information about my kids.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Meriwether

[LMD]

I have a real hard time believing that people arguing for males fighting females in mma, or for any male professing a trans identity having carte blanche access to female spaces, are acting in good faith.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, LMD said:

I have a real hard time believing that people arguing for males fighting females in mma, or for any male professing a trans identity having carte blanche access to female spaces, are acting in good faith.

The weird thing is, I think a whole lot of them intend to be (acting in good faith, that is). Often ones who really aren’t personally affected by the issues and are just trying to be open and accepting of everyone, and they think this is the way to do it. But many haven’t fully been acquainted with or thought through the repercussions, and to discuss those repercussions is not considered acceptable speech, as shown by the deleted posts Melissa shared above. It’s a frustrating, circular problem that just makes the issue more and more ingrained. The quotes from the MMA fighter above are nauseating, btw, and at some point I’d be curious to have a discussion with my young adult kids about what they think about that. They currently vehemently fall in line with what they believe is the right stance for all good progressives to take, even in cases where that stance could be harmful to them. I’ve noticed they don’t seem to consider women a class in need of any protections, but trans people are (one of them is trans). So, I don’t know they would have the same visceral response to the quotes about enjoying breaking women’s skulls 😢. 

[Melissa Louise]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

The weird thing is, I think a whole lot of them intend to be (acting in good faith, that is). Often ones who really aren’t personally affected by the issues and are just trying to be open and accepting of everyone, and they think this is the way to do it. But many haven’t fully been acquainted with or thought through the repercussions, and to discuss those repercussions is not considered acceptable speech, as shown by the deleted posts Melissa shared above. It’s a frustrating, circular problem that just makes the issue more and more ingrained. The quotes from the MMA fighter above are nauseating, btw, and at some point I’d be curious to have a discussion with my young adult kids about what they think about that. They currently vehemently fall in line with what they believe is the right stance for all good progressives to take, even in cases where that stance could be harmful to them. I’ve noticed they don’t seem to consider women a class in need of any protections, but trans people are (one of them is trans). So, I don’t know they would have the same visceral response to the quotes about enjoying breaking women’s skulls 😢. 

When ds and I were having some significant cultural clashes, I showed him how similar some of his arguments were to those of men's rights activists. That seemed to have an impact. 

[pinball]

I was reading this article tonight and was not planning on linking it until I read the last lines.

It seems that Merager, the Wi Spa suspect, is at large and a second arrest warrant was issued. 

“They’re having a tough time tracking me down. That’s good. They’ll find me when I turn myself in,” Merager said.

Whenever that happens, Merager expects to be jailed in a women’s facility.

https://nypost.com/2021/09/17/wi-spa-suspect-still-at-large-has-history-of-indecent-exposure-and-masturbation/

[Melissa Louise]

7 minutes ago, pinball said:

 

Whenever that happens, Merager expects to be jailed in a women’s facility.

 

You think that's bad? Try this. Canada.

https://4w.pub/violent-woman-killer-to-be-transferred-to-womens-prison/

I give up. 

[Fritz]

On 9/17/2021 at 9:00 PM, Melissa Louise said:

You think that's bad? Try this. Canada.

https://4w.pub/violent-woman-killer-to-be-transferred-to-womens-prison/

I give up. 

Absolute insanity!!

[bolt.]

On 9/17/2021 at 7:00 PM, Melissa Louise said:

You think that's bad? Try this. Canada.

https://4w.pub/violent-woman-killer-to-be-transferred-to-womens-prison/

I give up. 

That article buries very few facts about the Canadian prison system under a ton of sensationalism and speculation.

Here's a better article with some nuance and balance:

https://thecanadian.news/2021/09/16/a-nightmare-murder-trial-in-toronto-has-ended-what-follows-highlights-one-of-the-toughest-questions-facing-canadian-prisons/

[KSera]

58 minutes ago, bolt. said:

That article buries very few facts about the Canadian prison system under a ton of sensationalism and speculation.

Here's a better article with some nuance and balance:

https://thecanadian.news/2021/09/16/a-nightmare-murder-trial-in-toronto-has-ended-what-follows-highlights-one-of-the-toughest-questions-facing-canadian-prisons/

That article still didn't do anything to make it sound to me like this is a reasonable policy. When they defend it by saying, "Any security risk presented by the inmate must be able to be managed by CSC in the institution that corresponds to his gender identity" I don't see why that doesn't go the other way. If the reason transwomen can't be in a facility matching their biology is because it's unsafe for them, then "Any security risk presented to the inmate must be able to be managed by CSC". The fact that gender identity is not a definable thing makes it not a reasonable basis for which to assign someone to prison. It allows anyone to choose whichever prison they want on the basis of self-identification. I think at this point, each facility probably needs areas that are particularly for trans inmates, to keep them safe. I don't see why their safety should be the priority over others' safety, though.

eta: My opinion on this is based on both directions, not just on concerns about women from a male-bodied sex offender housed with them, but also my concerns for transmen and non binary people who might be housed with the men if the approach of going just by gender identity is used. I know many young adult trans and non binary people born female who might think that they should be in the men's prison due to their gender identity, but it's very scary to me to think of them being put there, and honestly, I think many are just too naive to realize the risk. A transwoman is definitely at risk in a men's prison, but very, very definitely a transman is as well, especially if he reads female, as many of the young trans guys I know do.

Edited September 25, 2021 by KSera

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

That article buries very few facts about the Canadian prison system under a ton of sensationalism and speculation.

Here's a better article with some nuance and balance:

https://thecanadian.news/2021/09/16/a-nightmare-murder-trial-in-toronto-has-ended-what-follows-highlights-one-of-the-toughest-questions-facing-canadian-prisons/

It's not a tough question, not if you think female prisoners have a right not to be incarcerated with violent men. 

[bolt.]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's not a tough question, not if you think female prisoners have a right not to be incarcerated with violent men. 

If you don't think it's a tough question, I suppose there's not much I can do to discuss the nuances and the conflicting needs and expectations of the individuals on all sides of this issue.

As it happens, I don't think the "right" you have invented exists in the legal sense, nor does the "right" to be imprisoned according to gender identity. These are cutting edge legal issues currently before courts and being worked out in case law. That's practically the definition of a tough question in my opinion.

I quite like the idea of separated facilities (or subdivisions of existing facilities) for transwomen and transmen specifically. I'm suspicious that, in many cases, that might be happening through unofficial isolation and similar practices.

Edited September 25, 2021 by bolt.

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, bolt. said:

If you don't think it's a tough question, I suppose there's not much I can do to discuss the nuances and the conflicting needs and expectations of the individuals on all sides of this issue.

As it happens, I don't think the "right" you have invented exists in the legal sense, nor does the "right" to be imprisoned according to gender identity. These are cutting edge legal issues currently before courts and being worked out in case law. That's practically the definition of a tough question in my opinion.

If you think there's nuance in incarcerating a female population with a man who is a rapist and murderer, on his say so, that post the murdering and raping, he discovered he's really a woman and needs to serve his sentence in the female estate, 1. You are credulous in the extreme and 2. You are happy to increase risk to female prisoners, one of the most vulnerable populations in any country. 

Manage violent males in the estate set up for that - male prisons. 

 

[bolt.]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

If you think there's nuance in incarcerating a female population with a man who is a rapist and murderer, on his say so, that post the murdering and raping, he discovered he's really a woman and needs to serve his sentence in the female estate, 1. You are credulous in the extreme and 2. You are happy to increase risk to female prisoners, one of the most vulnerable populations in any country. 

Manage violent males in the estate set up for that - male prisons. 

 

I think that situation *is* one of the nuances in creating an overall policy or systematic approach to all incarcerated transwomen and transmen. It's an extremely relevant and important case to examine. I think it's fantastic that it has come up, and that it is currently being examined.

1. It is not "credulous in the extreme" to believe that this person exists, that their application and situation are currently before courts, and that the decisions made about them will impact future policy as it applies to future - violent and non-violent - transmen and transwomen - both the genuine and the disingenuous. I can't see why one would need to be "credulous in the extreme" to follow the case as it has been reported and be curious about the outcome.

2. No, I am not "happy" to increase the risk of any prisoners. In what universe does contemplating legal nuances create "happiness" at the prospect of danger and pain for others? Do you think I'm a psychopathy? A masochist? These are very strong words coming from you. I don't know why we are on the level of personal attacks.

[Melissa Louise]

37 minutes ago, KSera said:

That article still didn't do anything to make it sound to me like this is a reasonable policy. When they defend it by saying, "Any security risk presented by the inmate must be able to be managed by CSC in the institution that corresponds to his gender identity" I don't see why that doesn't go the other way. If the reason transwomen can't be in a facility matching their biology is because it's unsafe for them, then "Any security risk presented to the inmate must be able to be managed by CSC". The fact that gender identity is not a definable thing makes it not a reasonable basis for which to assign someone to prison. It allows anyone to choose whichever prison they want on the basis of self-identification. I think at this point, each facility probably needs areas that are particularly for trans inmates, to keep them safe. I don't see why their safety should be the priority over others' safety, though.

eta: My opinion on this is based on both directions, not just on concerns about women from a male-bodied sex offender housed with them, but also my concerns for transmen and non binary people who might be housed with the men if the approach of going just by gender identity is used. I know many young adult trans and non binary people born female who might think that they should be in the men's prison due to their gender identity, but it's very scary to me to think of them being put there, and honestly, I think many are just too naive to realize the risk. A transwoman is definitely at risk in a men's prison, but very, very definitely a transman is as well, especially if he reads female, as many of the young trans guys I know do.

Many men are at risk in a men's prison. The answer is for the risks to be mitigated within the prison without using women as a dumping ground. 

I agree that I would expect transmen to serve their sentences in the female estate. I think that creates problems for the female population, but of a different intensity, I suppose. Rape, for example, could not impregnate. 

It actually makes me really, really angry that people whose politics are pro-rights of prisoners somehow switch that off when it comes to female prisoners. 

Female prisoners are already at intense risk, most of them inside and outside the prison - why on earth is it ok to add to their risk by allowing violent men to self identify into their midst? 

Nobody can ever convince me they care about women and girls when they support putting violent males in a place women can't leave. 

[KSera]

18 minutes ago, bolt. said:

As it happens, I don't think the "right" you have invented exists in the legal sense,

The right not to be incarcerated with violent men may not exist legally, but doesn't the right not to be assaulted by violent men while incarcerated? It's hard to insure that right while imprisoning violent men with women. It's kind of crazy to see this one being argued on behalf of the violent male sex offenders. People have lost the plot on this issue.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, bolt. said:

I think that situation *is* one of the nuances in creating an overall policy or systematic approach to all incarcerated transwomen and transmen. It's an extremely relevant and important case to examine. I think it's fantastic that it has come up, and that it is currently being examined.

1. It is not "credulous in the extreme" to believe that this person exists, that their application and situation are currently before courts, and that the decisions made about them will impact future policy as it applies to future - violent and non-violent - transmen and transwomen - both the genuine and the disingenuous. I can't see why one would need to be "credulous in the extreme" to follow the case as it has been reported and be curious about the outcome.

2. No, I am not "happy" to increase the risk of any prisoners. In what universe does contemplating legal nuances create "happiness" at the prospect of danger and pain for others? Do you think I'm a psychopathy? A masochist? These are very strong words coming from you. I don't know why we are on the level of personal attacks.

I think you don't care much about female prisoners, no. 

Otherwise you'd be out here protesting the idea that male rapists and murderers should be able to self identify into the female estate, instead of entertaining the idea that male rapists and murderers may actually be women needing protection in the female estate. 

The violent rapist and murderer deserves to be safe in prison to seve his sentence.  Not at the expense of a single female prisoner. Not if you think female prisoners deserve the same rights as men. 

Reform the male estate. This man is a problem for the male estate to deal with. 

It's literally insane that this is even under consideration. He's a man. A man who violently raped and murdered a woman. He serves his sentence with other men. 

To argue otherwise is a social madness. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

The right not to be incarcerated with violent men may not exist legally, but doesn't the right not to be assaulted by violent men while incarcerated? It's hard to insure that right while imprisoning violent men with women. It's kind of crazy to see this one being argued on behalf of the violent male sex offenders. People have lost the plot on this issue.

QFT

 

 

[bolt.]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think you don't care much about female prisoners, no. 

Otherwise you'd be out here protesting the idea that male rapists and murderers should be able to self identify into the female estate, instead of entertaining the idea that male rapists and murderers may actually be women needing protection in the female estate. 

The violent rapist and murderer deserves to be safe in prison to seve his sentence.  Not at the expense of a single female prisoner. Not if you think female prisoners deserve the same rights as men. 

Reform the male estate. This man is a problem for the male estate to deal with. 

It's literally insane that this is even under consideration. He's a man. A man who violently raped and murdered a woman. He serves his sentence with other men. 

To argue otherwise is a social madness. 

I don't think male rapists and murderers should be able to simply self identify into female prisons. What makes you think I thought that? I didn't say anything like that. Not even remotely.

I really don't know who you think you are arguing with, or what you think the topic of argument is. It's you who quoted me. But now I'm confused. Where is all the extra information coming from?

I view incarceration of transmen and transwomen as a complex issue, a "tough question" for society. I'm in favour of it being considered by qualified individuals. That's my whole point. It's the only point I have made, and it's the only point I intend to defend.

Unless you think procedures of imprisonment for transgender people (a) are not complex, or (b) that qualified individuals should not be spending time looking into them -- I really don't think we need to continue.  I don't know why you are quoting me or assigning weird positions or motives to me.

Edited September 25, 2021 by bolt.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, bolt. said:

I don't think male rapists and murderers should be able to simply self identify into female prisons. What makes you think I thought that? I didn't say anything like that. Not even remotely.

I really don't know who you think you are arguing with, or what you think the topic of argument is. It's you who quoted me. But now I'm confused. Where is all the extra information coming from?

I view incarceration of transmen and transwomen as a complex issue, a "tough question" for society. I'm in favour of it being considered by qualified individuals. That's my whole point. It's the only point I have made, and it's the only point I intend to defend.

Unless you think procedures of imprisonment for transgender people (a) are not complex, or (b) that qualified individuals should not be spending time looking into them -- I really don't think we need to continue.  I don't know why you are quoting me or assigning weird positions or motives to me.

I do not think it is complex. People born male should be managed in the male estate. Particularly if they are serving a sentence for violent crime, are not transexual but self ID as 'a woman' despite all evidence to the contrary, and remain in possession of the penis they previously used to rape a woman. 

That this arises as a question for learned minds is - at a societal level - insane.