Viral Video: Nude man enters women's locker room.

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, Danae said:

We’re not?  And yet we appear to be having it. 

I think it's great that we have been able to have it here. It's an important conversation. Besides doxxing and harassment, there are many online forums where any discussions like these have been shut down and the channels banned as hate speech. Detransitioners trying to talk about their experiences have had their spaces shut down. In many places, the range of what opinion is allowed in order to not be considered hate speech is extremely narrow. And it frustrates the heck out of me, because that's not not for the benefit of trans-identifying people (particularly young people) at all. To be all hoo-yah! about instant hormones and function-impairing surgeries for any young people that request it is not coming from a place of genuinely caring about those young people, it's all about appearances and thinking the "right" thing without any significant thought or research into what that actually is and what effect it is having.

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I don't think WTM is being infiltrated. I recognize most of the names, and some I don't post mostly on the other boards. 

I've only been threatened with doxxing once here, and that poster no longer posts. 

Oh, I don't think we have been infiltrated on this thread or anything on this topic at this point. I just mean in general. There have been some weird patterns lately that indicate this forum must be coming up more often in people's search results when they search for random things. And there have been a number of new accounts that post in a random thread with a profile picture of a guy's headshot, and each is a different guy, but the kind of picture is so similar that it's weird to me. Maybe I'm the only one who's noticed that 🤷‍♀️. In any case, nothing to do with this topic, just saying I do feel like the chances of someone stumbling across it is higher now than it used to be.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, KSera said:

Oh, I don't think we have been infiltrated on this thread or anything on this topic at this point. I just mean in general. There have been some weird patterns lately that indicate this forum must be coming up more often in people's search results when they search for random things. And there have been a number of new accounts that post in a random thread with a profile picture of a guy's headshot, and each is a different guy, but the kind of picture is so similar that it's weird to me. Maybe I'm the only one who's noticed that 🤷‍♀️. In any case, nothing to do with this topic, just saying I do feel like the chances of someone stumbling across it is higher now than it used to be.

I hope women do stumble across it. 

[LMD]

33 minutes ago, Danae said:

We’re not?  And yet we appear to be having it. 

This conversation has come a looooooong way here. 3 years ago it was shut down with slurs. I'm sure there's at least a few posters who still wish the conversation would go away, I don't exactly blame them, it's not comfortable. The conversation being mostly respectful and productive here is very delicate and rare.

[SKL]

On 7/3/2021 at 8:59 PM, Melissa Louise said:

Ok. Fair enough. 

What do you think can be done for women in states where these laws have been passed? 

I think the thing that will make the most practical difference is that females will stop patronizing businesses that put trans males' wants above females' needs.  Wi Spa will look at its P&L and suddenly get creative about how to address females' concerns.

Females are the main purchasers in the US, not males.

Edited September 6, 2021 by SKL

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

I think the thing that will make the most practical difference is that women will stop patronizing businesses that put trans men's wants above women's needs.  Wi Spa will look at its P&L and suddenly get creative about how to address females' concerns.

Women are the main purchasers in the US, not men.

That works for things like the spa, not so much for things like prisons. 

[Dmmetler]

14 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

To be fair, I don't care about beauty pageants.  🙂 Males want to play these utterly unserious games? Have at it. 

But yes, self ID will drive a % of women out of both public and private spheres. And they're the lucky ones - with a place to retreat. Even though we know that for many Women, the retreat is itself unsafe. 

Women in sport can only retreat (or be pushed ) into non-competition. Women who need female provision of care, rape crisis services, DV refuges - nothing.  Women in prisons ? Just get handed condoms. If they're 'lucky'. 

Boggles the mind that it's all considered progressive. 

And yes, it's bizarre to get rid of the limited forms of sex-segregation we have but turn them into same-gender segregation. Why on earth would there be any material need to segregate by gender?

 

 

 

What bothers me is that we seem to be seeing more gatekeeping that is keeping cis women out of specific spaces if they're not women enough. The fact that due to inclusion of trans women in Olympic level sport there is an accepted testosterone level that is set at a bar below which some cis women fall is not acceptable to me-particularly since it seems to mostly affect Black women.  So not only do women have to compete with trans athletes who got the benefit of going through puberty as a male before transitioning, but any natural advantages they may have been born with-and which have additional side effects, because while extra testosterone might be helpful as a teen/young adult athlete, it has a lot of disadvantages, too. (I have a friend who falls into that category, and even in high school, being really good in gym class and on the cross country team didn't make up for getting teased because of not being built "like a girl", or having to start waxing facial hair at age 12-and it definitely didn't make up for not being able to get pregnant without serious medical intervention)-are enough to exclude them.

 

I was also reading a college website (to see what the resolution had been for a dorm that literally blew up a week before L was supposed to move in three summers ago) and noticed that they now have gender inclusive dorms and floors within dorms. And basically, if you move into a gender inclusive dorm, you're saying you're OK and accepting with anyone who is placed with you (and that you're not requesting a specific roommate because you are in a sexual relationship with them). Uh, as a mom, that thought sends horror through my spine, because I have the kind of liberal kid who I could see ticking a gender inclusive box without even thinking about it-but I definitely would not be comfortable with my 16 yr old sharing a room and bathroom with an 18 yr old with a penis, especially since I see nothing on the forms that would keep a completely cis, straight male from doing so-and I'm not willing to trust the motives of teen boys! 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Dmmetler

[Lady Florida.]

12 hours ago, KSera said:

Oh, I don't think we have been infiltrated on this thread or anything on this topic at this point. I just mean in general. There have been some weird patterns lately that indicate this forum must be coming up more often in people's search results when they search for random things. And there have been a number of new accounts that post in a random thread with a profile picture of a guy's headshot, and each is a different guy, but the kind of picture is so similar that it's weird to me. Maybe I'm the only one who's noticed that 🤷‍♀️. In any case, nothing to do with this topic, just saying I do feel like the chances of someone stumbling across it is higher now than it used to be.

I've noticed a few new members whose only reason for being here seems to be so they can start controversial topics or post inflammatory statements on topics that had been fairly respectful. Some people call them out as previous members with new names but in most cases I'm not good at recognizing someone's posting style. Either way, whether they're new or old with new names, it seems to be a trend. Thankfully hasn't happened in this thread but it's definitely a weird new thing on WTM. 

[Danae]

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

The fact that due to inclusion of trans women in Olympic level sport there is an accepted testosterone level that is set at a bar below which some cis women fall is not acceptable to me-

 

 

 

 

This was actually happening prior to inclusion of trans athletes.  Women with “too high” of testosterone were accused of being trans or not female enough and excluded on that basis.

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

And basically, if you move into a gender inclusive dorm, you're saying you're OK and accepting with anyone who is placed with you (and that you're not requesting a specific roommate because you are in a sexual relationship with them). Uh, as a mom, that thought sends horror through my spine, because I have the kind of liberal kid who I could see ticking a gender inclusive box without even thinking about it-but I definitely would not be comfortable with my 16 yr old sharing a room and bathroom with an 18 yr old with a penis, especially since I see nothing on the forms that would keep a completely cis, straight male from doing so-and I'm not willing to trust the motives of teen boys! 

I can totally see this as well. My dc is in gender inclusive housing next year and they were just telling me about someone who had a straight cis guy as a roommate last year in the gender inclusive housing, and everything was cool and no problem, but that they thought it was funny they requested gender inclusive and wondered why. I suggested like you say, that maybe they wanted to indicate they were an ally. It is true there’s nothing to stop someone with other motives, but unless they pick a certain roommate (who has to also pick them), they would have no idea who they would end up with. It would be equally likely they would be with a trans woman male-bodied roommate who likes guys. Which probably wouldn’t be their goal. I do have concerns about the boyfriend-girlfriend aspect causing awkwardness, as my dc is rooming with two trans students, male and female, and doesn’t know if they are romantically involved or just friends. 

[Melissa Louise]

8 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

What bothers me is that we seem to be seeing more gatekeeping that is keeping cis women out of specific spaces if they're not women enough. The fact that due to inclusion of trans women in Olympic level sport there is an accepted testosterone level that is set at a bar below which some cis women fall is not acceptable to me-particularly since it seems to mostly affect Black women.  So not only do women have to compete with trans athletes who got the benefit of going through puberty as a male before transitioning, but any natural advantages they may have been born with-and which have additional side effects, because while extra testosterone might be helpful as a teen/young adult athlete, it has a lot of disadvantages, too. (I have a friend who falls into that category, and even in high school, being really good in gym class and on the cross country team didn't make up for getting teased because of not being built "like a girl", or having to start waxing facial hair at age 12-and it definitely didn't make up for not being able to get pregnant without serious medical intervention)-are enough to exclude them.

 

I was also reading a college website (to see what the resolution had been for a dorm that literally blew up a week before L was supposed to move in three summers ago) and noticed that they now have gender inclusive dorms and floors within dorms. And basically, if you move into a gender inclusive dorm, you're saying you're OK and accepting with anyone who is placed with you (and that you're not requesting a specific roommate because you are in a sexual relationship with them). Uh, as a mom, that thought sends horror through my spine, because I have the kind of liberal kid who I could see ticking a gender inclusive box without even thinking about it-but I definitely would not be comfortable with my 16 yr old sharing a room and bathroom with an 18 yr old with a penis, especially since I see nothing on the forms that would keep a completely cis, straight male from doing so-and I'm not willing to trust the motives of teen boys! 

 

 

 

 

The sports issue is complex. 

In general, athletes required to lower testosterone have XY specific DSD's, and have undergone partial or full virilization at puberty.

Not all athletes with an XY DSD profile need to do so - CAIS women who are XY but don't go through a male puberty at all, compete according to the same rules as XX athletes. 

None of that has anything to do with transwomen in women's sport. A whole other issue,  well beyond testosterone levels. I can't personally see much progress in having Laurel Hubbard competing against females half his age  at the Olympics, but that's apparently a minority view. 

Re gender inclusive rooming...I guess consenting adults can do what they want but the framing is problematic, especially for minors. Nobody of college age wants to be 'gender exclusive' - there needs to be a way for female students, particularly, to express a need to room with other bio female students, without the 'oh no that's bigoted' penalty. Nothing to do with bigotry, everything to do with risk reduction. 

I continue to have no idea why we would, as a society, segregate by gender identity or presentation. Makes zero sense to me. The only point to limited sex segregation is risk reduction due to differences in population-level  offending profiles between the two sexes. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Melissa Louise

[Ausmumof3]

21 hours ago, KSera said:

Oh, I don't think we have been infiltrated on this thread or anything on this topic at this point. I just mean in general. There have been some weird patterns lately that indicate this forum must be coming up more often in people's search results when they search for random things. And there have been a number of new accounts that post in a random thread with a profile picture of a guy's headshot, and each is a different guy, but the kind of picture is so similar that it's weird to me. Maybe I'm the only one who's noticed that 🤷‍♀️. In any case, nothing to do with this topic, just saying I do feel like the chances of someone stumbling across it is higher now than it used to be.

There’s jobs on upwork and similar for users to create accounts and post a certain number of posts on forums or to post seeding posts on forums.  I think the goal is to create an online profile for someone who then takes it over for whatever purpose.  The similarity of the types of posts make me think this is what’s going on.  Fake profiles for spreading disinformation is a whole troubling thing.

[Melissa Louise]

Nope, that's a lie. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Don't spread fake news aka an 'article' whose journalism is mere insinuation. 

Yes, in some people's wishful thinking, this never happened. Because it's very inconvenient for self ID proponents.

 

[LMD]

Lol

'A possibility' 'anonymous sources' 'well known TERF websites' 

Seems legit. 🤨

We all saw the video with our own eyes, that's pretty elaborate for a hoax.

And it still doesn't change the fact that female only safe spaces that include males will exclude some females.

[KSera]

16 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'll repeat my first post on this thread. People need to stop falling for viral videos. 

 

Agreeing people need to stop falling for viral videos (I still haven't seen this one, as I didn't see the relevance of viewing that particular video to engage in a discussion on the broader topic). The last couple links posted also bring to mind though the way the media has been so irresponsible with this issue and continues to be in so many ways, on both sides. A good time to post again a link shared earlier by someone else:

What the media gets wrong on gender reassignment

 

eta: I really, really recommend anyone truly interested in the issue read the *entire* article, even though it's long. It's a much more nuanced treatment of the issue than typically seen (and I expect some people who think they "like" it when they start reading it, will be less sure how to think as they get deeper into it, and vice versa for those who don't like the beginning, but start agreeing as it goes on). We dearly need this kind of nuance in this area though, and it's terribly lacking.

Edited July 9, 2021 by KSera

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, LMD said:

Lol

'A possibility' 'anonymous sources' 'well known TERF websites' 

Seems legit. 🤨

We all saw the video with our own eyes, that's pretty elaborate for a hoax.

And it still doesn't change the fact that female only safe spaces that include males will exclude some females.

"remains a possibility the man in the spa wasn't even a transwoman" - bingo!

TFW even TRA's are starting to understand the problem of self ID...

[LMD]

Okay.

Do you think that females should be allowed their own sex segregated spaces?

Thanks for the thread bump though.

 

[LMD]

Thanks. I'm not getting into a source v source pissing contest.

Females are a distinct group with their own sex specific experiences and needs which necessarily sometimes excludes males. I don't think that's a difficult or controversial statement.

But nice non answer.

[KSera]

7 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Not sure how I feel about this yet. 

The tough thing is that rules and “right” ways of thinking about this are already being put in place, such that it’s already affecting people while those it doesn’t really affect have the luxury of not having an opinion yet (and I’m not blaming people for not knowing what they think yet—much better that than just going with whatever the predominant group think from ones own “side” is). But it’s tough, because somehow a small group has decided what the right answer is, and anyone with thoughtful questions or hesitations is painted with broad strokes as a hateful bigot by the media—and the whole dynamic is worsened by the fact that there is a large group of people who largely are in fact hateful bigots yelling the loudest, over the top of those with reasonable concerns who have no malice or moralizing involved. The whole issue is a mess right now. 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

thrive when the ideology is more important than anything else. 

This is a big problem on many fronts right now, including with this issue. All kinds of issues arise when ideology is more important then facts or consequences. 
 

 

6 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The spa itself says they had no trans clients that day. 

I have zero idea if it did or didn’t happen. But this particular reason doesn’t seem relevant to me in deciding that because I think most people would agree that if this happened, that was likely not a trans woman, because that’s not how most trans women would behave in a locker room.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, KSera said:

This is a big problem on many fronts right now, including with this issue. All kinds of issues arise when ideology is more important then facts or consequences. 
 

 

I have zero idea if it did or didn’t happen. But this particular reason doesn’t seem relevant to me in deciding that because I think most people would agree that if this happened, that was likely not a trans woman, because that’s not how most trans women would behave in a locker room.

However, under Cali law ( self ID) there is no way to tell 'true' transexual from 'fake'. 

And there is no way for even women who believe TWAW to make sure the spa is woman-only under their own definitions. 

And the free market can't solve it, because it's illegal to discriminate between true and false. 

No female space. Not even any female + guaranteed TW space! I know the TWAW crowd don't give a shit about actual females, but surely they can at least see self ID is not great for real TW?

[KidsHappen]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The spa itself says they had no trans clients that day.

Just because there was no trans client DOES NOT mean there was no MAN in the women's area . The woman was not complaining about a trans person in the women's area, she was complaining about a man (which is what many of us thought in the first place) in the women's area. From what I can tell (I can't hear what the employee says) it was the man in the video (who didn't even see the person in question) who first mentioned that it could be a trans person. 

I can't really tell if the woman speaking was recording or if someone else was recording but it wasn't just the one woman who possibly posted the video. There was a small crowd of women there and the one woman trying to get her money back. Certainly if they could keep track of one trans client, they would have noticed a small crowd of women who were not members trying to stir up trouble.

In any case, there is no more proof of this article than there was of the original video. As a matter of fact, there seems to be less. And even if the video was a faked, self-ID  is still a legitimate concern for many women and we need to be able to discuss these concerns. 

[KidsHappen]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The important proof in the article is that the police believe there is no evidence of what was claimed to have happened. 

But we don't know the truth which is why <let's say it together!> don't fall for viral videos! 

 

That's not my understanding of the article you posted. My understanding is that there was no trans person there but not necessarily that there was no man there. I don't see that they addressed this possibility at all which is the issue most women seem concerned with. 

So far every viral video I have seen has turned out to be legitimate. I am not saying that there have not been fake videos, just that I haven't seen any so in my experience they can be trusted until proved otherwise. Of course, YMMV.

[SKL]

12 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The important proof in the article is that the police believe there is no evidence of what was claimed to have happened. 

Say the male split after realizing things were getting serious.  What evidence would you expect the police to find?  One assumes they don't have security cameras in the locker room or any other room where everyone is supposed to be naked.

If the various women in the room stated they saw a naked male's sex organ openly displayed in that room, none of their statements matter?  I mean, I could agree with you if it was one woman saying it happened and multiple other women, also present, saying it didn't.  Is that how it went down?

There's often no "evidence" other than a woman's statement when men commit offenses against women.  So is the standard of evidence now "we don't have proof other than a female's statement, so this didn't happen"?

Edited July 10, 2021 by SKL

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It was in a public place so the evidence would be other people who were there. 

And who is this woman? She has an anonymous Twitter account. 

Why are we talking about "standard of evidence" here? It's a viral video. None of us know what actually happened. 

Stopped getting played. 

 

You brought up the evidence discussion by saying the police say they didn't find any.

I don't know if this happened or not, and neither do you.  But you've spent this entire thread, and others, shooting down other people's views / ideas without proposing any real support for your own, if you even have any.

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It was in a public place so the evidence would be other people who were there. 

And who is this woman? She has an anonymous Twitter account. 

Why are we talking about "standard of evidence" here? It's a viral video. None of us know what actually happened. 

Stopped getting played. 

 

Oh and I just read that ridiculous article you posted.  It is so extremely biased it isn't funny.  Also, ironically, the author of that article is anonymous.  LOL.  And you talk about others getting played.

[Melissa Louise]

C'mon, an anonymous source says their neighbour's brother's FIL heard from a buddy who's a cop...there was NO MAN! 

Hilarious how some will place so much faith in the cops sometimes, even in a game of Whispers. 

Indecent exposure (even though an indicator of potentially escalated future offences) is rarely properly investigated and even more rarely prosecuted. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.millihill.co.uk/2021/07/10/i-will-not-be-silenced/

One women's experience of the hounding some deny is happening. 

[KSera]

47 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

https://www.millihill.co.uk/2021/07/10/i-will-not-be-silenced/

One women's experience of the hounding some deny is happening. 

This is happening over and over, it is what I meant when I said earlier that I keep having moments of feeling like I need to delete everything I’ve posted here.  The immediate pile on of calling any questions “violence” belittles actual violence against trans people (and others). And as usual, it’s women who are expected to fall in line with what they’ve been told is the right way to think. For some reason, many women have this tendency to do what they are told and think it’s right, even when it’s against their best interest (we see this in some very patriarchal situations as well). 
 

From the article:

“But I also hope that at some point there is a period of reflection on just how far the policing of women’s thoughts and opinions was allowed to go before anybody really noticed. To those of us in the eye of the storm, it felt completely dystopian, and this was exacerbated by the fact that the majority of people seemed to have no idea that a modern day ‘witch hunt’ was happening – or perhaps they did know, but looked the other way.

I also hope that people take time to consider why those who are being dragged to the pyre are not just women, but in most cases, lifelong left-leaning, open minded, educated and tolerant women, often with a history of supporting minority groups or working in areas concerned with justice and fairness. Either there is something in the water that has caused these usually rational and inclusive women to turn into hateful bigots overnight, or they have a point that’s worth listening to.

Finally I would like to stress that trans people also need to be listened to, and that we need dialogue not division. I am not hateful or transphobic. I totally respect all people, however they wish to live or identify, and support dignity, equality and equity for all. A big part of the current problem is that the ‘bar’ for what is transphobic has been set so low that it even incorporates statements of fact such as ‘humans are sexually dimorphic’ or ‘only female people give birth’. Recently I stated that there were two sexes in a facebook discussion with midwives and was told I should ‘respect other people’s beliefs’. I find it worrying that biology has somehow changed category from ‘science’ to ‘religion’ in this way. But even if we accept this, it should not therefore follow that those of differing beliefs are persecuted.”

[pinball]

Charges filed against suspect for indecent exposure 

But on Monday, charges of indecent exposure were discreetly filed against a serial sex offender for the Wi Spa incident, following an investigation by the Los Angeles Police Department.

Sources with knowledge of the case but not authorized to speak publicly say four women and a minor girl came forward to allege that Darren Agee Merager was partially erect in the women’s section of Wi Spa. Besides being a suspect in this case, Merager is facing multiple felony charges of indecent exposure over a separate incident in Los Angeles.

https://nypost.com/2021/09/02/charges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-wi-spa-casecharges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-notorious-wi-spa-incident/

 

[Catwoman]

32 minutes ago, pinball said:

Charges filed against suspect for indecent exposure 

But on Monday, charges of indecent exposure were discreetly filed against a serial sex offender for the Wi Spa incident, following an investigation by the Los Angeles Police Department.

Sources with knowledge of the case but not authorized to speak publicly say four women and a minor girl came forward to allege that Darren Agee Merager was partially erect in the women’s section of Wi Spa. Besides being a suspect in this case, Merager is facing multiple felony charges of indecent exposure over a separate incident in Los Angeles.

https://nypost.com/2021/09/02/charges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-wi-spa-casecharges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-notorious-wi-spa-incident/

 

Thank you for the update on this -- I had wondered whatever happened to the guy, particularly since there were people here on this forum who seemed to think at the time that the whole thing was a hoax.

[BusyMom5]

Thank you for the update!  I hope that this incident causes women to start standing up for our right to have a safe space, free from male genitalia.  After reading this thread I have spent a lot of time reading about this issue- to be honest I hadn't really given it a lot of thought since it wasn't directly affecting me.  What I have found has made me feel an entire generation of women are being preyed upon by a faulty science, poor mental health,  and now a society that guilts us into feeling uncomfortable and accepting it.  This is not progressive.  This is not going forward.  

 

[Melissa Louise]

Thanks for the update. 

 

[Tanaqui]

So... it wasn't a hoax, but also nobody was trans and as a result at least two people WERE hurt (stabbed) in anti-trans violence connected to this video.

Might I suggest that a better use for everybody's time and money would be just putting up some darn stalls with curtains? They don't take up *that* much space.

[Melissa Louise]

A self identifying transwoman with priors for this and other criminal activity. 

Tell me again how allowing people to self-ID is in the interests of women, or transexual people (with diagnosed intractable sex dysphoria, who have been screened before a meaningful transition and who, in the main, don't behave like this).

[KSera]

41 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Tell me again how allowing people to self-ID is in the interests of women, or transexual people (with diagnosed intractable sex dysphoria, who have been screened before a meaningful transition and who, in the main, don't behave like this).

Agreeing with this. The fact that as someone a few posts above said, "Nobody was trans" is really much of the point. A case like this doesn't seem like a good one to argue the answer is just to put up some curtains, and let whoever wants to be in there be in there. That works if the answer is to have single person changing areas for all (which I think is a good, albeit expensive option, but not for within the women's area.

Besides all that, what I find interesting when I go looking for information on this, is that I'm only finding reports on low quality and conspiracy leaning right-wing sources. NYPost is probably the closest to a valid news source that I could find it on, and that's pretty sad if NY Post is the best there is. I don't have quite enough interest to go to the LA sheriff website and try to find arrest records, so I don't have a lot to go on to verify this is true, but I do find past articles from legitimate sources about a criminal history for this guy from years ago (for property crimes though, not sex offenses). I didn't want to click on most of the sources that came up in my search, but I could see from the preview that most of them were all using the NYPost story as their source for these new charges.

The lack of stories on this did remind me of this story posted earlier in this thread about what the media gets wrong when covering transgender topics. Either the new charges are bogus (I expect they are not), or there is selective reporting on this case. On the other hand, I also think the variety of outrage about this on the type of site that is sharing this news is not coming from a truthful place either, it's more that they are gleeful that this particular story fits their narrative.

What the media gets wrong on gender reassignment

 

 

 

[LMD]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

So... it wasn't a hoax, but also nobody was trans and as a result at least two people WERE hurt (stabbed) in anti-trans violence connected to this video.

Might I suggest that a better use for everybody's time and money would be just putting up some darn stalls with curtains? They don't take up *that* much space.

How would a nude Korean spa put up stalls and curtains?

Everybody's time and money would be better spent if entitled male people would respect women's boundaries. 

Eta - males fighting/stabbing each other is not the fault of women with boundaries.

Edited September 2, 2021 by LMD

[Janeway]

On 6/28/2021 at 2:34 PM, KidsHappen said:

I am really surprised that this hasn't been posted yet. It's about the real life implications of all this increased interest in gender theory.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/viral-video-irate-woman-blasts-spa-letting-nude-man-enter-womens-section

I'd be interested in hearing peoples opinions on this.

He/she has a penis. He/she does not belong in the female space. IF this person were really trans, I do not think he/she would be comfortable showing his/her penis in public. It should not be allowed. After he/she fully transitions, sure. But not while he/she carries a penis.

[KSera]

4 minutes ago, Janeway said:

He/she has a penis. He/she does not belong in the female space. IF this person were really trans, I do not think he/she would be comfortable showing his/her penis in public. It should not be allowed. After he/she fully transitions, sure. But not while he/she carries a penis.

I think we're going to need a different way to go about this than "after he/she fully transitions" because many people choose not to have "bottom surgery" as part of their transition. I still can't come up with any better solutions than to have either individual spaces, or to have male, female, and coed spaces. Unfortunately, I expect there would still be some degree of issue with some transwomen wanting to be in the female spaces rather than the co-ed spaces (I expect there would be less problem with transmen wanting to be in the male spaces, because the risk level to them in those spaces is entirely different and they are more likely to appreciate having the mixed space available). That also gives somewhere for non-binary folks to be.  It's difficult to come up with an ideal solution, though.

[LMD]

Ksera, this spa did have a coed space. This male sex offender was allowed and supported in chosing the nude female space. 

And the female people who objected were vilified as liars and bigots and blamed for inciting more male violence.

[KSera]

4 minutes ago, LMD said:

Ksera, this spa did have a coed space. This male sex offender was allowed and supported in chosing the nude female space. 

And the female people who objected were vilified as liars and bigots and blamed for inciting more male violence.

Yeah, that's what I was saying is the part I don't have an answer to. Those are the people who are more likely to choose the female space even when given another option. I don't think genital checks are the way to go about this for absolute sure, so I end up back at just needing individual changing spaces as the only answer. I don't think this was really an issue ten, fifteen years ago, when the trans population was largely different than it is now, but the recent changes in that may necessitate changes in how things are done. It's a tough issue.

[Janeway]

26 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think we're going to need a different way to go about this than "after he/she fully transitions" because many people choose not to have "bottom surgery" as part of their transition. I still can't come up with any better solutions than to have either individual spaces, or to have male, female, and coed spaces. Unfortunately, I expect there would still be some degree of issue with some transwomen wanting to be in the female spaces rather than the co-ed spaces (I expect there would be less problem with transmen wanting to be in the male spaces, because the risk level to them in those spaces is entirely different and they are more likely to appreciate having the mixed space available). That also gives somewhere for non-binary folks to be.  It's difficult to come up with an ideal solution, though.

There needs to be biologically female, biologically male, and non-gender specific spaces. That is really the only solution.

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Janeway said:

There needs to be biologically female, biologically male, and non-gender specific spaces. That is really the only solution.

How do you propose that gets policed, though?

[Melissa Louise]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

Yeah, that's what I was saying is the part I don't have an answer to. Those are the people who are more likely to choose the female space even when given another option. I don't think genital checks are the way to go about this for absolute sure, so I end up back at just needing individual changing spaces as the only answer. I don't think this was really an issue ten, fifteen years ago, when the trans population was largely different than it is now, but the recent changes in that may necessitate changes in how things are done. It's a tough issue.

Maybe we could just wind back bad self ID law that enables an alleged serial sex offender to present to a facility as female?!

[LMD]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

Yeah, that's what I was saying is the part I don't have an answer to. Those are the people who are more likely to choose the female space even when given another option. I don't think genital checks are the way to go about this for absolute sure, so I end up back at just needing individual changing spaces as the only answer. I don't think this was really an issue ten, fifteen years ago, when the trans population was largely different than it is now, but the recent changes in that may necessitate changes in how things are done. It's a tough issue.

This wasn't a changing space though. This was a nude spa. A culturally Korean establishment.

It's only a tough issue if people feel like males who feel sad should get exactly what they want all the time, and female people aren’t allowed to have boundaries if it hurts male people's feelings. 

I'm sorry if male people with genuine gender dysphoria feel excluded sometimes. If they genuinely feel that they identify with women, surely they can muster up some empathy and respect for our boundaries?

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

How do you propose that gets policed, though?

I think what would help immensely is to begin shifting the progressive way of talking about this. 

Instead of insisting we must all literally believe a male with a penis is a female when he claims a trans identity, we could base our discussion on material reality. 

This would allow us to create a norm that in a very few spaces, gender identity and sex can and should be separate. Transwoman are not literally female, and it's appropriate to exclude them from female provision in a very few instances. 

This might have allowed the spa to take action and have the alleged offender remover, instead of the burden of leaving being on the women involved. 

 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, LMD said:

This wasn't a changing space though. This was a nude spa. A culturally Korean establishment.

It's only a tough issue if people feel like males who feel sad should get exactly what they want all the time, and female people aren’t allowed to have boundaries if it hurts male people's feelings. 

I'm sorry if male people with genuine gender dysphoria feel excluded sometimes. If they genuinely feel that they identify with women, surely they can muster up some empathy and respect for our boundaries?

Exactly. 

[KSera]

26 minutes ago, LMD said:

It's only a tough issue if people feel like males who feel sad should get exactly what they want all the time, and female people aren’t allowed to have boundaries if it hurts male people's feelings. 

I'm sorry if male people with genuine gender dysphoria feel excluded sometimes. If they genuinely feel that they identify with women, surely they can muster up some empathy and respect for our boundaries?

Agree with this, especially the last sentence (though my experience with this tells me that transwomen consider themselves more marginalized than natal women, so their wants/needs are to be put first ahead of natal women. I have heard this actually put this way (usually by female allies), so I don’t just mean that people act that way, but they actually say this.)

23 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think what would help immensely is to begin shifting the progressive way of talking about this. 

Instead of insisting we must all literally believe a male with a penis is a female when he claims a trans identity, we could base our discussion on material reality. 

This would allow us to create a norm that in a very few spaces, gender identity and sex can and should be separate. Transwoman are not literally female, and it's appropriate to exclude them from female provision in a very few instances. 

This might have allowed the spa to take action and have the alleged offender remover, instead of the burden of leaving being on the women involved. 

I agree with this as well, but just don’t see a practical way this happens anytime soon. I do think eventually we will end up back at this place. My personal opinion is that the current large spike in transgender identification is a phenomenon that will not be permanent. I believe it will likely return more similar to previous levels at some point, but we’ll see. How we handle it in the meantime, I don’t know. The things that would help are things I don’t see happening (largely far more nuance, particularly coming from the medical community and the media). It’s too dangerous for people to address this topic with the nuance it really calls for. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

Agree with this, especially the last sentence (though my experience with this tells me that transwomen consider themselves more marginalized than natal women, so their wants/needs are to be put first ahead of natal women. I have heard this actually put this way (usually by female allies), so I don’t just mean that people act that way, but they actually say this.)

I agree with this as well, but just don’t see a practical way this happens anytime soon. I do think eventually we will end up back at this place. My personal opinion is that the current large spike in transgender identification is a phenomenon that will not be permanent. I believe it will likely return more similar to previous levels at some point, but we’ll see. How we handle it in the meantime, I don’t know. The things that would help are things I don’t see happening (largely far more nuance, particularly coming from the medical community and the media). It’s too dangerous for people to address this topic with the nuance it really calls for. 

It will be less and less dangerous the more people speak up and demand better from media and the medical community.