Viral Video: Nude man enters women's locker room.

[Clarita]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Do you understand that 'perversions' - ugly way to say fetish or paraphilias - are vastly more likely in males?

I know what official statistics say; however I also know males (especially ones who fully identify as such) are very likely to under-report abuses that have happened to them. I haven't talked with enough men about this to have a good scientific sampling for statistics, but I have talk to enough men to know women can be just as ugly to men as men have been to me. In my talks 100% of the time I am the only person they've talked to about it; that breaks my heart. 

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have an abuse history with a female parent - it hasn't wrecked my sense of relative risk. 

I have had issues with both males and females all strangers. I admit I have a hard time trusting anyone with my body.

[LucyStoner]

39 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

K have seen no one say this particular guy should have been walking in the women's spa letting  it all hang out. 

 

But, I am seeing this particular video used to support a law in my state that, very literally, requires stores to be the bathroom police and promise that there won't be anyone with a penis in the shared bathroom at the local department store or grocery. Which I can see going bad in so many ways-like yelling at a mom who needs to bring her 8 yr old in, or women with broad shoulders and short hair being harrassed because they look too mannish. It basically means that if you want to use the bathroom in a Business you have to fit the gender mold. 

 

I have REAL problems with a case of someone being a total jerk being used to defend a law that is going to increase harrassment for those who are not gender conforming. If anything, it increases the gender binary and gap, not reducing it-and the rationale given is protecting women.

I’m sensitive to that factor as well.  I don’t want to see unenforceable or vague laws that harm trans people like my brother passed.  The thing is, it needs to be possible to voice valid issues with self ID and other considerations while also lobbying against harmful laws.  These aren’t simple issues and too often the issues are flattened to black and white polarities on both sides.  

Consideration of if, when and where biological sex rightfully matters as much or more than gender identity is a reasonable discussion to have and I like to believe it can be done without ignoring the relevant issues.  

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by LucyStoner

[pinball]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Is it really that straightforward? There were lots of women who gave me the evil eye when I brought my 8yo son into the dressing room after swim lessons. Guess how many Fs I gave? I didn’t feel safe with him in a men’s dressing room alone and I didn’t have a male partner around to do the duties.

Nothing about being hairy or tall. Nothing about why you thought you were getting the evil eye

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Side eye or no side eye, discomfort won’t stop people from doing what feels safer/best. And, no, this little Y didn’t have family bathrooms. It had a family stall or two that were always occupied after swim lessons. I wasn’t about to have my kiddos stand there shivering b/c some lady was in her feelings.

Still nothing about hairy or tall or reasons for the evil eye

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

My DS just stopped taking lessons. When he no longer was able to safely accompany me and he didn’t feel comfy in the men’s room, he quit. His proficiency still doesn’t match DDs. My DS is also mildly autistic and he started late with lessons too. Until he could talk, he screamed as soon as he got near the pool. It does raise some disability rights questions. How do adults with cognitive/physical disabilities manage these issues?

 

3 hours ago, pinball said:

Unless he is going through precocious puberty, no one’s 8 yo son is a man.

Me trying to bring the topic back to the topic at hand...it’s about MEN in women’s spaces.

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

You haven’t met my son. He’s tall like DH and hairy like my dad. Most Black boys are perceived to be older than they actually are despite their equally rangy frames. At 13, people usually assume he’s older than my rising junior. This is tangential tho. I agree that the individual in this instance apparently had a perfectly reasonable coed space and chose not to use it. That’s a jerk move.

Oh, he’s tall and hairy, then you mention he is 13. But you had been talking about him when he was 8

3 hours ago, pinball said:

You said 8.

a 13 yo boys doesn’t belong in a women’s only space

 

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

At 8 years old, my son was also tall and hairy. His perceived age doesn’t match his actual age, that was my point. White people, in particular, overestimate his age and always have.

Oh, OK. Now you say at 8 he was tall and hairy

Was he a man at 8 years old? A man in the physical sense of going thru or having gone thru puberty...because that’s what I said, “Unless he is going through precocious puberty, no one’s 8 yo son is a man.”

so, at 8 years old...was he a man?

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Ignorance with respect to perceptions of age and maturity. She’s using ‘’white’ as the default for what men/boys look like, what ‘precocious’ puberty is, and how they develop. It’s the same thing that causes black girls to be assumed as older and more mature than they are. It’s bullshit.

It was about men in women’s spaces. Not 8 year olds of any race

[LucyStoner]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Do you think the unintended consequence of laws like this will be that businesses will get rid of public bathrooms? 

I think businesses will build more single occupancy spaces and make up the cost differential  by providing fewer overall toilets.  I’ve seen some newer builds and retrofits where I observe that is what is happening.  

Bathrooms with just toilets and sinks (who gets naked in a restroom at the mall or target?) are a different issue than spas or locker rooms.  It takes a lot longer to shower than to pee.  I don’t think most non-profit or public pools can afford to go with all private shower rooms.  

[Clarita]

36 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

And if anyone here is one of those women who likes to sit around the locker room and chat with friends for an hour or so while you’re all naked, could you possibly at least sit on a towel?

And explain why this is a thing? I mean it may not be as gross as the men's locker room but it definitely doesn't smell like roses in there either. 

[Dmmetler]

Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

Do you think the unintended consequence of laws like this will be that businesses will get rid of public bathrooms? 

I believe many of the businesses affected are required to have them available for customers. I can see it being a "you need to get a key to the bathroom" situation, though, making it more difficult for, say, a mom who has a young child who, when they need to go, need to go.  

 

Just now, LucyStoner said:

I’m sensitive to that factor as well.  I don’t want to see unenforceable or vague laws that harm trans people like my brother passed.  The thing is, it needs to be possible to voice valid issues with self ID and other considerations while also lobbying against harmful laws.  These aren’t reason isuses and too often the issues are flattened to black and white polarities on both sides.  

Consideration of if, when and where biological sex rightfully matters as much or more than gender identity is a reasonable discussion to have and I like to believe it can be done without ignoring the relevant issues.  

 

I'm honestly torn. The trans folks I know really just want to live their lives and be left alone, and often would be just as likely to be harrassed in the bathroom that matches their anatomy as in the one for their gender identity, because they no longer LOOK like they belong in the bathroom matching their gender. The way the law is worded, I can see them not having any good option. 

 

At the same time, I don't want men being able to use self-ID as an excuse to do bad things to other people (and walking through naked is minor compared to the possibilities, and I really don't want some of the young people I know who are IDing as trans, but are very visibly distinguishable as young biological females, going into a men's locker room, either.  

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I think businesses will build more single occupancy spaces and make up the cost differential  by providing fewer overall toilets.  I’ve seen some newer builds and retrofits where I observe that is what is happening.  

Bathrooms with just toilets and sinks (who gets naked in a restroom at the mall or target?) are a different issue than spas or locker rooms.  It takes a lot longer to shower than to pee.  I don’t think most non-profit or public pools can afford to go with all private shower rooms.  

Providing fewer overall toilets will, of course, impact most on girls and women, who, on average, take longer to use facilities for a multitude of reasons both biological and cultural.

So it's a no win situation for females. 

I actually think what will happen is the slow return of the urinary leash for a % of females, ironically, some of the least privileged. 

[LucyStoner]

Just now, Dmmetler said:

I believe many of the businesses affected are required to have them available for customers. I can see it being a "you need to get a key to the bathroom" situation, though, making it more difficult for, say, a mom who has a young child who, when they need to go, need to go.  

 

I'm honestly torn. The trans folks I know really just want to live their lives and be left alone, and often would be just as likely to be harrassed in the bathroom that matches their anatomy as in the one for their gender identity, because they no longer LOOK like they belong in the bathroom matching their gender. The way the law is worded, I can see them not having any good option. 

 

At the same time, I don't want men being able to use self-ID as an excuse to do bad things to other people (and walking through naked is minor compared to the possibilities, and I really don't want some of the young people I know who are IDing as trans, but are very visibly distinguishable as young biological females, going into a men's locker room, either.  

 

 

To your last point, my trans identified nieces are all short to very short and look quite female.  I have discussed with them the impracticalities of assuming it’s the best thing for them to access the men’s room.  It might be one thing at school but recently I took them all to an indoor water park.  I noted that each preferred to either use the women’s room with me or change in the hotel suite.  They can identify however they like but does that mean that people don’t clock them as female?  No it doesn’t.  And pretending that they (ages 12-19) are at the exact same risk as their brothers and male cousins for unwanted or inappropriate attention from creepy men in men’s rooms doesn’t really serve them well. 

[desertflower]

pinball and sneezyone - do you think you guys can stay out of this topic?  If not, we will have to shut it down.  Thanks.

[Melissa Louise]

https://tinyletter.com/Glosswitch/letters/the-ok-karen-33-you-should-feel-bad

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, desertflower said:

pinball and sneezyone - do you think you guys can stay out of this topic?  If not, we will have to shut it down.  Thanks.

Now, I’m sorry, you’ve seriously pissed me off. I just ignored her screed, a deeply personal attack involving my kid, and now *I’m* being asked to mute myself?

Edited June 30, 2021 by Sneezyone

[LucyStoner]

8 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Providing fewer overall toilets will, of course, impact most on girls and women, who, on average, take longer to use facilities for a multitude of reasons both biological and cultural.

So it's a no win situation for females. 

I actually think what will happen is the slow return of the urinary leash for a % of females, ironically, some of the least privileged. 

Oh, for sure. As someone who has often *needed* to use the bathroom pretty much *as soon as* I felt the need to go to the bathroom, longer lines will no doubt result in me having an accident or two.  

People seem to forget that office buildings and government buildings were often built without any ladies facilities at all until into well into the 20th century.  

[desertflower]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Now, I’m sorry, you’ve seriously pissed me off. I just ignored her screed and now *I’m* being asked to mute myself?

You've been reported earlier today.  I was just nice enough to let this topic carry on by asking you and pinball to stay out of it.  I see no reason to punish the others who are gaining a lot from this thread.

[Catwoman]

9 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I believe many of the businesses affected are required to have them available for customers. I can see it being a "you need to get a key to the bathroom" situation, though, making it more difficult for, say, a mom who has a young child who, when they need to go, need to go.  

 

I'm honestly torn. The trans folks I know really just want to live their lives and be left alone, and often would be just as likely to be harrassed in the bathroom that matches their anatomy as in the one for their gender identity, because they no longer LOOK like they belong in the bathroom matching their gender. The way the law is worded, I can see them not having any good option. 

 

At the same time, I don't want men being able to use self-ID as an excuse to do bad things to other people (and walking through naked is minor compared to the possibilities, and I really don't want some of the young people I know who are IDing as trans, but are very visibly distinguishable as young biological females, going into a men's locker room, either.  

 

 

It’s so hard all around, and there are no easy answers. 

My biggest fear is for the safety of easily identifiable biological females who are using men’s rooms and men’s locker rooms. It seems so dangerous, yet I know they don’t feel like they belong in the women’s facilities, either. 😞 

I wish I had a solution. Making private instead of group changing rooms could be helpful, but so many small businesses don’t have the space, the capability, or the finances available to renovate their facilities to create even one or two private showers, changing rooms, or rest rooms. It’s a nice idea, but it’s not practical or affordable — particularly for most small, independent businesses.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, desertflower said:

You've been reported earlier today.  I was just nice enough to let this topic carry on by asking you and pinball to stay out of it.  I see no reason to punish the others who are gaining a lot from this thread.

Perhaps you could PM me to explain what I was reported for? I have reported exactly one person, one time, in ten years, two now. I’ve been learning too.

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Sneezyone

[desertflower]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Perhaps you could PM me to explain what I was reported for? I have reported exactly one person, one time, in ten years. I’ve been learning too.

 

Well, perhaps.  It was the discussion you had with catwoman.  Perhaps you can figure it out on your own?

I would have to read all 3 pages and then let you know.  It may be a while because as moderator we don't get paid.  And as a dyslexic, I don't really want to read all of that.

Generally, people aren't specific why they are reporting.  It just points us to the post.  Us moderators have to read the stuff beforehand. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, desertflower said:

Well, perhaps.  It was the discussion you had with catwoman.  Perhaps you can figure it out on your own?

I would have to read all 3 pages and then let you know.  It may be a while because as moderator we don't get paid.  And as a dyslexic, I don't really want to read all of that.

Generally, people aren't specific why they are reporting.  It just points us to the post.  Us moderators have to read the stuff beforehand. 

The word ‘BS’? Seriously? Clearly, a large number of people understood exactly what my issue was. Please, take your time.

[Clarita]

35 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

How many random women are perverts or pose a threat to women and girls?  Equality doesn’t mean pretending that females are equally likely to be pervy boundary violators as males are.  They are not.

 I just don't believe single biological sexed spaces will mitigate abuses. I mean people put secret cameras in these "safe" spaces, certain women feel it's OK to sit and chat with their friends directly behind my toweled body (honestly that feels pervy to me) and pervs have done things to me in spaces where everyone is clothed. 

Then, at some point enforcement is an issue. I mean how is anyplace suppose to enforce the biological gender rule ( or have a penis or vagina rule), have a perv sit in these spaces to check everyone's genitalia. (I'm pretty sure that's a pervs dream job.) In that case, I absolutely prefer changing next to a biological male than to be subjected to that.  

Of course all these thoughts may come from my own messed up experiences. I'm not an expert at all. It just saddens me how we can't just punish actual wrong-doers and instead we have to resort to throwing other innocent and vulnerable people under the bus instead.  BTW I don't know the intentions and the actions of the accused in the video, and I believe that the woman who complained should have been listened to and respected (even if she is to be told that under the law they can't do anything about it). 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Clarita said:

 I just don't believe single biological sexed spaces will mitigate abuses. I mean people put secret cameras in these "safe" spaces, certain women feel it's OK to sit and chat with their friends directly behind my toweled body (honestly that feels pervy to me) and pervs have done things to me in spaces where everyone is clothed. 

Then, at some point enforcement is an issue. I mean how is anyplace suppose to enforce the biological gender rule ( or have a penis or vagina rule), have a perv sit in these spaces to check everyone's genitalia. (I'm pretty sure that's a pervs dream job.) In that case, I absolutely prefer changing next to a biological male than to be subjected to that.  

Of course all these thoughts may come from my own messed up experiences. I'm not an expert at all. It just saddens me how we can't just punish actual wrong-doers and instead we have to resort to throwing other innocent and vulnerable people under the bus instead.  BTW I don't know the intentions and the actions of the accused in the video, and I believe that the woman who complained should have been listened to and respected (even if she is to be told that under the law they can't do anything about it). 

It's about reducing risk. 

Not eliminating it. 

I think reducing risk is worth it. 

YMMV. 

[Catwoman]

32 minutes ago, Clarita said:

And explain why this is a thing? I mean it may not be as gross as the men's locker room but it definitely doesn't smell like roses in there either. 

I agree!

Seriously, people, that’s why God invented Starbucks. You go work out, you change your clothes, and you all go out for coffee. Or maybe for a nice lunch. But get out of the locker room!

Sitting around naked in a locker room is not my idea of a good time.

[1234]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The word ‘BS’? Seriously? Clearly, a large number of people understood exactly what my issue was. Please, take your time.

I just wanted to let you know that I think it’s BS you were reported and BS you were called aggressive. It was quite clear what you were talking about and ridiculous that some pushed back the way they did.

[Melissa Louise]

Seriously, the problem can be avoided ( or made the problem of individual women, just as good, apparently, given we can't expect penis people to have to hear 'no' ) if businesses are HONEST. 

The spa needs to have a whacking great sign at the desk and on their website, before women pay, that says they have three mixed sex spaces, but two spaces are single gender. A disclaimer - using the single gender space does not guarantee a single sex experience. 

Then women who don't want to engage can go home, and everyone who is concerned with the rights of males to use all three spas will be happy. 

Failing that, just apologies to the women users and give them their money back! Don't gaslight them. Just say 'Im very sorry for your experience. Please let me refund your money.'

 

[desertflower]

14 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The word ‘BS’? Seriously? Clearly, a large number of people understood exactly what my issue was. Please, take your time.

That's not the post that was reported. I just happened to be skimming. 

I'll take a look later. 

[Melissa Louise]

In any case, race has zero to do with this case. 

It was a Black woman standing up for the other concerned women. The race of the naked adult male is irrelevant. 

[LucyStoner]

39 minutes ago, Clarita said:

 I just don't believe single biological sexed spaces will mitigate abuses. I mean people put secret cameras in these "safe" spaces, certain women feel it's OK to sit and chat with their friends directly behind my toweled body (honestly that feels pervy to me) and pervs have done things to me in spaces where everyone is clothed. 

Then, at some point enforcement is an issue. I mean how is anyplace suppose to enforce the biological gender rule ( or have a penis or vagina rule), have a perv sit in these spaces to check everyone's genitalia. (I'm pretty sure that's a pervs dream job.) In that case, I absolutely prefer changing next to a biological male than to be subjected to that.  

Of course all these thoughts may come from my own messed up experiences. I'm not an expert at all. It just saddens me how we can't just punish actual wrong-doers and instead we have to resort to throwing other innocent and vulnerable people under the bus instead.  BTW I don't know the intentions and the actions of the accused in the video, and I believe that the woman who complained should have been listened to and respected (even if she is to be told that under the law they can't do anything about it). 

I think genital checks for bathrooms are a red herring.  No one sane is advocating for that.  No one is well served by that. 

A lot of this murkiness is introduced by self ID.  Self ID has problems.  It wasn’t always like this.  Trans men and women have been using the bathrooms they felt most comfortable with for a long time and it was basically never an issue.  Even if someone doesn’t “pass”, people are not stupid.  We can all tell if someone is making an effort to present as male or female and sense when someone is pushing a boundary for less than honorable reasons. 

With self ID, it’s unclear to me that I have the right to challenge any obviously male person in a space that is not for them.  I posted about an incident I had years ago in a nursing room with a dude just sitting in there.  I feel like reporting that to mgmt 15 years ago and now would be very different things.  

You mention being harassed in spaces that are clothed.  I’ve had that experience, especially on busses and in restaurants/bars. One place I have gone to get away is someplace that in the absence of self ID I know I could not validly be followed - the women’s restroom.  

The alternative to self ID is a more involved process before someone can legally change their gender.  I think a lot of people who claim that this isn’t an issue because no one would claim to be trans when they aren’t may not be fully aware of the realities of self ID and the changes that have been made in the last 2 decades.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by LucyStoner

[Meriwether]

I keep trying to type a response while playing cards with my family, but I get lost and have to start over. I'll probably say this badly by being brief, but...

Virtually no one is concerned about transmen joining men's sports or using men's spaces, except the natural concern for the transmen. That is because transmen are not a danger to men and they aren't going to dominate men's sports. This isn't about transphobia for the majority of people. It really isn't.

[LMD]

1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

Oh, for sure. As someone who has often *needed* to use the bathroom pretty much *as soon as* I felt the need to go to the bathroom, longer lines will no doubt result in me having an accident or two.  

People seem to forget that office buildings and government buildings were often built without any ladies facilities at all until into well into the 20th century.  

People also often forget that the first female public toilets were burned down by males who thought that women shouldn't exist in public spaces. Our foremothers fought for them! Many charities are currently fighting for female only toilets/spaces in underprivileged communities.

[Katy]

Do we know what state this was in and what indecent exposure laws there are?

I think most states I've lived in would have arrested this man for indecent exposure and would likely have him registered as a sex offender once it went through the court.

Giving transpeople equal rights doesn't nullify indecent exposure.

 

And as a foster parent, @Sneezyone is right.  We've had several black boys stay with us.  All but the infants looked much older, not to me, but to every white person we spoke to about them.  We once had a barely 3 year old we took to a pony ride at a city fair.  It was for toddlers.  Two people questioned if he was over the 6 year old age limit.  That baby couldn't even say his own name yet.

[lulalu]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

Do we know what state this was in and what indecent exposure laws there are?

I think most states I've lived in would have arrested this man for indecent exposure and would likely have him registered as a sex offender once it went through the court.

Giving transpeople equal rights doesn't nullify indecent exposure.

 

 

It was in California

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Seriously, the problem can be avoided ( or made the problem of individual women, just as good, apparently, given we can't expect penis people to have to hear 'no' ) if businesses are HONEST. 

The spa needs to have a whacking great sign at the desk and on their website, before women pay, that says they have three mixed sex spaces, but two spaces are single gender. A disclaimer - using the single gender space does not guarantee a single sex experience. 

Then women who don't want to engage can go home, and everyone who is concerned with the rights of males to use all three spas will be happy. 

Failing that, just apologies to the women users and give them their money back! Don't gaslight them. Just say 'Im very sorry for your experience. Please let me refund your money.'

 

Yes, because women who don’t want to see penises in their spa be it for religious or trauma or just plain personal preference reasons need not access spa facilities unless they are affluent enough to build their own.  We can all just set up kiddie pools in makeshift plastic greenhouses.   🤣

When people are advocating, however unintentionally, for no single sex facilities *ever* they need to be aware that in their bid to be kind and inclusive, they are excluding a large number of people and that is not kind.  It all really sounds like a woke way of telling women that it’s selfish and mean to think of our own needs or to say no someone with a penis.  It’s ok to come down that way on this issue but be honest about the implications of what what being said.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by LucyStoner

[KSera]

 

54 minutes ago, Clarita said:

 I just don't believe single biological sexed spaces will mitigate abuses. I mean people put secret cameras in these "safe" spaces, certain women feel it's OK to sit and chat with their friends directly behind my toweled body (honestly that feels pervy to me) and pervs have done things to me in spaces where everyone is clothed. 

Then, at some point enforcement is an issue. I mean how is anyplace suppose to enforce the biological gender rule ( or have a penis or vagina rule), have a perv sit in these spaces to check everyone's genitalia. (I'm pretty sure that's a pervs dream job.) In that case, I absolutely prefer changing next to a biological male than to be subjected to that.  

Of course all these thoughts may come from my own messed up experiences. I'm not an expert at all. It just saddens me how we can't just punish actual wrong-doers and instead we have to resort to throwing other innocent and vulnerable people under the bus instead.  BTW I don't know the intentions and the actions of the accused in the video, and I believe that the woman who complained should have been listened to and respected (even if she is to be told that under the law they can't do anything about it). 

I quoted you to reply, but the Katie said what I wanted to say, but better: 

26 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I think genital checks for bathrooms are a red herring.  No one sane is advocating for that.  No one is well served by that. 

A lot of this murkiness is introduced by self ID.  Self ID has problems.  It wasn’t always like this.  Trans men and women have been using the bathrooms they felt most comfortable with for a long time and it was basically never an issue.  Even if someone doesn’t “pass”, people are not stupid.  We can all tell if someone is making an effort to present as male or female and sense when someone is pushing a boundary for less than honorable reasons. 

Of course no one thinks genital checks are the answer. And this didn’t used to be a problem. Trans people used the appropriate bathroom for them, with no drama. I expect if they still had male genitals, they made sure that stayed their own business. I still think the best solution for where we are at this point is either private spaces for those that want them and mixed space for those that don’t care, or single sex spaces combined with either private or coed spaces. Businesses can’t be expected to provide six different options, though. Three seems reasonable to me.

I also still can’t see comparing the threat from pervy women to that from men. The fact that one can impregnate and one can’t makes a huge difference to me (in addition to the differences of strength and likelihood of danger). Not to say both couldn’t be traumatic, just that the stakes are much different in one case than the other. 

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Yes, because women who don’t want to see penises in their spa be it for religious or trauma or just plain personal preference reasons need not access spa facilities unless they are affluent enough to build their own.  We can all just set up kiddie pools in makeshift plastic greenhouses.   🤣

When people are advocating, however unintentionally, for no single sex facilities they need to be aware that in their bid to be kind and inclusive, they are excluding a large number of people and that is not kind.  It all really sounds like a woke way of telling women that it’s selfish and mean to think of our own needs or to say no someone with a penis.  It’s ok to come down that way on this issue but be honest about the implications of what what being said.  

I'm pretty sure some people think kiddie pools are more than we deserve. 

Yes, honesty would help. 

[1234]

13 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I keep trying to type a response while playing cards with my family, but I get lost and have to start over. I'll probably say this badly by being brief, but...

Virtually no one is concerned about transmen joining men's sports or using men's spaces, except the natural concern for the transmen. That is because transmen are not a danger to men and they aren't going to dominate men's sports. This isn't about transphobia for the majority of people. It really isn't.

The problem is these conversations always end up like this one, which is all or nothing for all sides. I do think there needs to be more conversations about transwomen in sports, some women’s spaces, and self ID but this turned into no transwomen in women’s spaces (not for all posters but for many it reverted to the basic bathroom issues). It turned ugly and we all need to find a better way to talk about because doing it this way isn’t ever going to get us anywhere. 

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

I quoted you to reply, but the Katie said what I wanted to say, but better: 

Of course no one thinks genital checks are the answer. And this didn’t used to be a problem. Trans people used the appropriate bathroom for them, with no drama. I expect if they still had male genitals, they made sure that stayed their own business. I still think the best solution for where we are at this point is either private spaces for those that want them and mixed space for those that don’t care, or single sex spaces combined with either private or coed spaces. Businesses can’t be expected to provide six different options, though. Three seems reasonable to me.

I also still can’t see comparing the threat from pervy women to that from men. The fact that one can impregnate and one can’t makes a huge difference to me (in addition to the differences of strength and likelihood of danger). Not to say both couldn’t be traumatic, just that the stakes are much different in one case than the other. 

Open and female. 

Yes, it's unfair to men who want dignity, but it's not unsafe for them in the same way it is for women. 

The mixed sex nature of the open facilities mitigate against harm to female NBs. The multi-gender nature of the open spaces mitigate against harm for trans people. 

 

 

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Open and female. 

Yes, it's unfair to men who want dignity, but it's not unsafe for them in the same way it is for women. 

The mixed sex nature of the open facilities mitigate against harm to female NBs. The multi-gender nature of the open spaces mitigate against harm for trans people. 

 

 

I’m not okay with that for men and boys. I agree it’s not a danger to them, but I have guys I care about that this would be a real issue to, and that matters to me as well. There would be the exhibitionist women who enjoyed doing similar as this guy in the open space, and I don’t want to subject my teen son to the awkwardness of that in a space he’s changing, and I don’t care for the idea of my husband being there to see that. So sue me 😬. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, KSera said:

I’m not okay with that for men and boys. I agree it’s not a danger to them, but I have guys I care about that this would be a real issue to, and that matters to me as well. There would be the exhibitionist women who enjoyed doing similar as this guy in the open space, and I don’t want to subject my teen son to the awkwardness of that in a space he’s changing, and I don’t care for the idea of my husband being there to see that. So sue me 😬. 

Ok. So why would it be ok the other way around? Women's everything becomes open and men's stays single sex?

If men (males) are entitled to privacy and dignity, why are women (females) not entitled to privacy, dignity AND safety? 

[Rosie_0801]

26 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

The problem is these conversations always end up like this one, which is all or nothing for all sides. I do think there needs to be more conversations about transwomen in sports, some women’s spaces, and self ID but this turned into no transwomen in women’s spaces (not for all posters but for many it reverted to the basic bathroom issues). It turned ugly and we all need to find a better way to talk about because doing it this way isn’t ever going to get us anywhere. 

Some problems are not solvable. Or at least they won't be by the people who have the power to solve them, which in this case, is all the men who have taught women to be afraid.

[LucyStoner]

8 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Some problems are not solvable. Or at least they won't be by the people who have the power to solve them, which in this case, is all the men who have taught women to be afraid.

QFT

[KSera]

36 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ok. So why would it be ok the other way around? Women's everything becomes open and men's stays single sex?

If men (males) are entitled to privacy and dignity, why are women (females) not entitled to privacy, dignity AND safety? 

It’s not okay the other way around either. I’m not sure if I said something that made it sound like it is. I was suggesting single sex spaces for both sexes and then one for coed. Or private spaces plus open. 

26 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Some problems are not solvable. Or at least they won't be by the people who have the power to solve them, which in this case, is all the men who have taught women to be afraid.

QFT. 

[desertflower]

Pinball and Sneezyone can come back to this thread. Please just agree to disagree.  Don't interact with each other.  Thanks.

[desertflower]

6 hours ago, pinball said:

You said 8.

a 13 yo boys doesn’t belong in a women’s only space

I made a mistake in judgment earlier.  Pinball, Sneezyone was just saying when her son was 8.  Not that her son is 8 now.

I should have said to agree to disagree earlier.

[LMD]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Some problems are not solvable. Or at least they won't be by the people who have the power to solve them, which in this case, is all the men who have taught women to be afraid.

You are so wise Rosie. 

 

Women having boundaries isn't the problem. Trans people are absolutely entitled to their boundaries, they're just not entitled to mine. 

[1234]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Some problems are not solvable. Or at least they won't be by the people who have the power to solve them, which in this case, is all the men who have taught women to be afraid.

IDK, I get this but it also bothers me. I was nine when I woke up to a man in my bed. Then, when I was 18 I was raped at a party by someone from my school. I was certain I had some weird nine year curse. I somehow still don’t view men as someone to be afraid of. Maybe because I had a ridiculous amount of amazing male role models or maybe IDK why?   I don’t think the answer is to give up or consider everyone with a penis as scary. I still think there’s room for compromise (not in every space, but definitely in some). 

[Lady Florida.]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

In any case, race has zero to do with this case. 

It was a Black woman standing up for the other concerned women. The race of the naked adult male is irrelevant. 

Well it wasn't about race until someone used snark to question Sneezyone about what her son looked like at ages 8 and 13. The poster (not Catwoman) had no understanding of the fact that Black and Asian boys often do look older than white boys at the same age, often grow body hair at younger ages, and that it's NOT precocious puberty. When Jean posted that this is true she wasn't questioned. When Sneezyone did she basically got called out as the Angry Black Woman. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Lady Florida.

[Rosie_0801]

5 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

IDK, I get this but it also bothers me. I was nine when I woke up to a man in my bed. Then, when I was 18 I was raped at a party by someone from my school. I was certain I had some weird nine year curse. I somehow still don’t view men as someone to be afraid of. Maybe because I had a ridiculous amount of amazing male role models or maybe IDK why?   I don’t think the answer is to give up or consider everyone with a penis as scary. I still think there’s room for compromise (not in every space, but definitely in some). 

It's bothering everyone taking the trouble to empathise with others, I think.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Seriously, the problem can be avoided ( or made the problem of individual women, just as good, apparently, given we can't expect penis people to have to hear 'no' ) if businesses are HONEST. 

Well biological women can go to men's bathroom/locker room spaces as well. So both women and men in that boat will hear a no.

50 minutes ago, KSera said:

I also still can’t see comparing the threat from pervy women to that from men. The fact that one can impregnate and one can’t makes a huge difference to me (in addition to the differences of strength and likelihood of danger). Not to say both couldn’t be traumatic, just that the stakes are much different in one case than the other. 

I guess for me the trauma is enough of a threat and danger for me. To me, the stakes to me does not need to be increased to pregnancy for it to matter.  I also believe that even just because a person is physically capable of defending oneself does not mean they are mentally capable to defend themselves in the moment. Some people just freeze up in these situations. 

I do think some signage would be good to warn people that an establishment is allowing self ID people into the bathroom/locker room of their choosing. I think it should be done whether the company decided this as a policy or whether it is mandated by law. 

[LucyStoner]

44 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

IDK, I get this but it also bothers me. I was nine when I woke up to a man in my bed. Then, when I was 18 I was raped at a party by someone from my school. I was certain I had some weird nine year curse. I somehow still don’t view men as someone to be afraid of. Maybe because I had a ridiculous amount of amazing male role models or maybe IDK why?   I don’t think the answer is to give up or consider everyone with a penis as scary. I still think there’s room for compromise (not in every space, but definitely in some). 

Not everyone handles trauma the same way.  Different people are different. FWIW:  I have in no way “given up”.  Call it fear, call it caution, call it realism, call it a healthy sense of self protection.  Whatever you want to call it, it’s a valid part of why I am safe, functional and alive.  

I’ve had amazing therapy services as an adult but after being taken from my bed by a sex offender at 9 and later raped multiple times at age 11, I know that I have scabs and scars that will never quite go away.  I had amazing male role models.  I have also had dozens of experiences where men leered, harassed or behaved in a way that made it clear I was vulnerable.  I learned to steel myself and I learned how to punch people, earning myself the nickname “the fist” in college.  I learned that I don’t need a reason to prefer female HCPs or to be very aware of my surroundings or not trust new to me people.  

One time my brother and my now husband saw me on the street and decided, innocently enough, to startle me.  Like a jump out and say boo thing.  I came very close to punching my brother before I realized who he was.  

I was into my 30s before I recognized that my husband of a decade wasn’t an threat to me in my earliest moments of semi-wakefulness.  I shouted “who the f are you?” at him more than once first thing in the morning.  

This doesn’t mean I am less strong or less resilient than a survivor who does feel safe in more circumstances.  I’m happy for people who do feel safer in a broader set of circumstances.  I am not ashamed of my very different reality or going to deny it to be nice to anyone at all.  

I owe no one any explanation for how I live my life with my trauma.  

Women who do feel a need to defend some single sex spaces are not often being asked to “compromise”- they are being told they are hateful bigots for not disregarding their own lived reality.  I’ve seen that on these boards, and I’ve encountered it in my life.  No amount of close experience with the topic or actual support for trans people seems enough to protect women or transpeople with unpopular opinions from being called transphobic.  Even my trans brother gets called transphobic for his opinions.  It’s kinda become absurd.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by LucyStoner

[Clarita]

4 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Women who do feel a need to defend some single sex spaces are not often being asked to “compromise”- they are being told they are hateful bigots for not disregarding their own lived reality.  I’ve seen that on these boards, and I’ve encountered it in my life.

I hope I did not come off that way. People have different traumas, triggers and what matters to them. 

I do get on a soap box for people dismissing the fact that sexual assault happens to men. I knew the support I got and it pains me that some of the men in my life didn't get the same support nor felt comfortable getting that support from anywhere. I also feel the same way when women and trans people don't receive support for their trauma.

[LMD]

Why do I need to disclose a trauma before I'm allowed boundaries? Who decides if my story is bad enough for me to be 'allowed' to have a boundary?

I don't care if 99% of females are super cool with it, female spaces that include males will exclude some women, which means those women have no options and males have all the options. This is fair and progressive? Make a 3rd neutral option, make the men's open, there are many solutions if one genuinely wants to find one. Women's spaces and boundaries are not up for grabs, they are hard won, I will not be silent or 'kind' while a male appropriates them.

Edited June 30, 2021 by LMD

[LucyStoner]

22 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I hope I did not come off that way. People have different traumas, triggers and what matters to them. 

I do get on a soap box for people dismissing the fact that sexual assault happens to men. I knew the support I got and it pains me that some of the men in my life didn't get the same support nor felt comfortable getting that support from anywhere. I also feel the same way when women and trans people don't receive support for their trauma.

But who is sexually assaulting men and boys?  It’s largely biological males. It’s almost never biological females.  I don’t minimize the reality that males are sexual assault survivors.  My level of caution extends to my sons- and in ways that don’t make me very popular.  I would not allow my sons to visit my brothers in-laws because something was off. I was told I was crazy.  My parents and brother called me and said they were going to take my son (I was working, they were babysitting) to those ILs for some sort of dinner.  I told my brother  that I would come and get my son right then if they wanted to go but under no circumstances was my son to go with them.  If my son went, brother was never babysitting again. Everyone was mad at me.  Later we learned that there’s an uncle who abuses boys in that family and they all still have contact with him, which enables him.  Trusting my gut has almost always steered me right.  To be clear, it’s not that I think that uncle would have abused my son that visit.  But there’s no need to form relationships with people who either groom and abuse children or people who enable them. My sense that something was off was just something about my now exBILs mom and stepdad.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by LucyStoner