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Viral Video: Nude man enters women's locker room.


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Just now, pinball said:

Are you saying you wouldn’t have gone into the nude area of this spa in the first place?

it looked like there were women who were there, and wanted to be there. 

I think if the man in the nude women’s area was there accidentally, there wouldn’t be a viral video. Bc the woman who is talking, and questioning the spa workers wouldn’t have questioned the spa workers about why he was allowed there, and why the spa wouldn’t/couldn’t  make him leave.

Exactly. I'm not comfortable with that, so I wouldn't be there, and indeed, likely would not get a membership at somewhere that was typical. Having said that, I can envision an all nude situation where everyone accepts it and nudity is neither flaunted nor mentioned. That does not appear to be the case in the video. 

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1 minute ago, Dmmetler said:

I would be very comfortable in assuming that anyone, male or female, who walks around a locker room nude as opposed to quickly getting whatever business they need to do done and getting out, and indeed, anyone who spends a lot of time gazing at the bodies of others, is there to get their jollies, and to make such behavior grounds for immediate eviction and inability to return. Because I've experienced such behavior from people who had female bodies and seemed to quite enjoy showing off and making comments about other people's bodies, and honestly, I don't know that a man in the locker room could have possibly made me feel worse. 

That is reprehensible behavior. I am so sorry that happened to you! 

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22 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I want privacy, too. But it's not due to a trans woman potentially being there. It's that I have enough something (modesty, dysphoria, or whatever you want to call it) that I seriously prefer NOT to be nude around people I don't know, nor to see the nudity of others. 

 

I seriously find this a weird part of our culture.  I never change in an open locker room.  I go into a stall or wait for the family bathroom if I have my kids..  Every time.  I find anyone being naked in the locker room to be strange, even if they are other women.  Why do we have this weird cultural carve out?   I hope it goes away completely.
 

My high school didn’t allow the open showers that my mom remembered from high school.  Non-athletes weren’t even allowed to shower, while my mother remembers it being required in her high school.   I hope open locker rooms are a thing my kids find as weird as corded telephone and Netflix in the mail.  Then this issue solves itself, snd a host of others.  
 

There’s also no way to tell if someone in the locker room area is a lesbian who enjoys naked females, or even if they are a trans person if they change in the stall like I do.   No way to tell.  Unless we check the pants of every modest or not conventionally attractive female trying to enter a locker room.  

Edited by HeartString
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25 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Honest question — How do we, as biological women, know when we are “being played” when we are in a women’s locker room and a biological, non-surgically-transitioned male walks around naked in there with us? How can we determine if that person is a trans woman or just some random pervert getting his jollies by walking around in a women’s locker room? We can’t. We have no way of knowing. And we deserve to feel safe.

 

Speaking for myself...I think I shouldn’t have to distinguish that. There needs to be a hard line...if this place had a female section, there shouldn’t not have been a man in there.

i applaud the woman who was recording...*if he has a [penis] he’s a man*

I am not a lawyer, and I am not using these terms in a strict sense...but the Spa had an obligation to the clients once they offered the women’s space. I think The Spa never should have let the man in there, and once they realized he was there, he should have been removed.

i went to an all women’s retreat/camp once. It was awesome, and it even had a more private camping area if you had your period (on your moon) and wanted to be alone and get in touch with your body during you period.

if I found out a man was there? And the organization LET him on purpose? I’d have been devastated!

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We don’t know if the person who was exposed in the women’s spa was a transwoman or not.  All we know is that more than a few women who seemed to have seen the person were upset + the guy who was whiteknighting for the issue assumed that a person in the women’s spa area instead of the co-ed space was a transwoman.  

I noticed on the video that there’s one woman talking but quite a few other women in their robes who don’t look happy and one is trying to get a refund because she didn’t want to stay.  I heard instances of women off camera or to the side of the camera chime in to try and defend the woman who is doing the talking.  

Most (honestly, basically ALL) woman instinctively know if someone is unobtrusively using a space or if someone is being creepy and offensive.  It seems from this video that more than a couple of women saw the person and instinctively went with creepy.  

I don’t know transwomen who are creeps or who would be comfortable with their intact male genitalia on display in a women’s only space. My hunch would be that this was not a trans person but I don’t know that.  

I, like so many women, have encountered men who will use whatever they can to violate the boundaries of women either for voyeuristic or masturbatory purposes.  

Believe women- if a group of women saw this and were bothered enough to go to the lobby in their robes, I’m willing to go with whatever was going on was in the creepy column rather than a transwoman just trying to use a spa in peace.  Some males get off on violating the boundaries of and spaces designated for women.  To believe that creeps are above exploiting any and everything they can to do so is just silly.  

Minimizing this because it’s not covered by a news sites you like is also silly because this is not an issue that most media sites will touch with a 10 foot pole.  Self ID has real life, nuanced implications and flattening any and all concerns about it to bigotry on the part of women isn’t fair.  

Edited by LucyStoner
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9 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I seriously find this a weird part of our culture.  I never change in an open locker room.  I go into a stall or wait for the family bathroom if I have my kids..  Every time.  I find anyone being naked in the locker room to be strange, even if they are other women.  Why do we have this weird cultural carve out?   I hope it goes away completely.
 

My high school didn’t allow the open showers that my mom remembered from high school.  Non-athletes we’re allowed to shower, while my mother remembers it being required in her high school.   I hope open locker rooms are a thing my kids find as weird as corded telephone and Netflix in the mail.  Then this issue solves itself, snd a host of others.  
 

There’s also no way to tell if someone in the locker room area is a lesbian who enjoys naked females, or even if they are a trans person if they change in the stall like I do.   No way to tell.  Unless we check the pants of every modest or not conventionally attractive female trying to enter a locker room.  

It’s not about lesbians and enjoying female bodies.

it’s about power

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Would we be any more comfortable with trans men in the women's nude area? So, a person who looks like a man except for the genitals? Or would we be comfortable with intersex nude people who perhaps have a small penis but feel more comfortable in the women's area?

I don't know. I don't know how you would enforce any of it. Would a rule of no exposed D- be possible? But I'm not sure that would help prevent creepy men who are doing it on purpose until it's too late. We can't have a rule that you have to "look like a woman" to go inside because then less feminine looking females or trans men not allowed in the men's room could be harassed. 

In this circumstance, it's hard to know what to think given I don't see any explanation from the person with the D- in the women's room. I suspect he's an exhibitionist pervert who identifies as male and is in no way trans. I think it's a difficult period for society because everyone is still figuring out how to respond. 

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25 minutes ago, pinball said:

It’s not about lesbians and enjoying female bodies.

it’s about power

 

26 minutes ago, pinball said:

It’s not about lesbians and enjoying female bodies.

it’s about power

Maybe?   I can totally see that perspective, honestly.  But I also have a lived experience where most men who would derive power from invading a women’s locker room are also the same men who would rather die than be mistaken as gay or trans, so I have a hard time envisioning the scenario where that kind of guy throws on a dres and says he’s trans.  

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1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

I don't know what Jenny is saying, but what I'm saying is that I truly do not know a single trans person, biologically male or biologically female, who would do so. Because even if they have reached a place where they are comfortable with their body as is, having other people see them as being not what they feel they truly are, and worse yet, comment or react on it, is their worst nightmare. It also puts them at serious risk-trans individuals are far more likely to be assault victims than to victimize others.

 

Obviously, I don't know for sure that this guy isn't trans, but I am willing to bet he doesn't have any gender or body dysphoria! 

 

For me, someone in the same public bathroom or locker room having different genitals isn't that big of a deal. Someone in the same public bathroom or locker room being aggressive, exhibitionistic, or threatening is. And I've definitely experienced all three,albeit mostly when I was a bullied, late maturing teen, in all female situations. 

 

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

Honest question — How do we, as biological women, know when we are “being played” when we are in a women’s locker room and a biological, non-surgically-transitioned male walks around naked in there with us? How can we determine if that person is a trans woman or just some random pervert getting his jollies by walking around in a women’s locker room? We can’t. We have no way of knowing. And we deserve to feel safe.

 

See the above quote by Dmmetler. That's how I'd interpret it -- and your follow up quote (below) seems to agree. A truly trans person would, in general, not prefer communal nudity, and would not continue to insist on such a right once confronted. 

  As I've said from my first post - inappropriate actions (such as walking around exposing genitals to people, and minors, of the opposite sex) should and must remain inappropriate. How that works, specifically, in a place were communal nudity is the norm....I'm not sure. It would seem it should be obvious that a spa with communal nudity sections, one for the biologically female, one for the biologically male, and one for co-ed nudity would be able to direct a trans person to the co-ed section. And it would seem that with all 3 of those options available, a biological male insisting on using the female only section is doing so for the wrong reasons. 

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

I agree with you! 

I only have one close trans friend, but I can tell you that they would never think of using the locker room that didn’t match their biological sex. They would never want to make other people feel uncomfortable — and would never want to draw attention to their  bodies in that way. They don’t want to advertise that their physical bodies don’t match their gender. 

 

59 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I would be very comfortable in assuming that anyone, male or female, who walks around a locker room nude as opposed to quickly getting whatever business they need to do done and getting out, and indeed, anyone who spends a lot of time gazing at the bodies of others, is there to get their jollies, and to make such behavior grounds for immediate eviction and inability to return. Because I've experienced such behavior from people who had female bodies and seemed to quite enjoy showing off and making comments about other people's bodies, and honestly, I don't know that a man in the locker room could have possibly made me feel worse. 

Yes, this too, especially the bold. 

41 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

We don’t know if the person who was exposed in the women’s spa was a transwoman or not.  All we know is that more than a few women who seemed to have seen the person were upset + the guy who was whiteknighting for the issue assumed that a person in the women’s spa area instead of the co-ed space was a transwoman.  

I noticed on the video that there’s one woman talking but quite a few other women in their robes who don’t look happy and one is trying to get a refund because she didn’t want to stay.  I heard instances of women off camera or to the side of the camera chime in to try and defend the woman who is doing the talking.  

Most (honestly, basically ALL) woman instinctively know if someone is unobtrusively using a space or if someone is being creepy and offensive.  It seems from this video that more than a couple of women saw the person and instinctively went with creepy.  

I don’t know transwomen who are creeps or who would be comfortable with their intact male genitalia on display in a women’s only space. My hunch would be that this was not a trans person but I don’t know that.  

I, like so many women, have encountered men who will use whatever they can to violate the boundaries of women either for voyeuristic or masturbatory purposes.  

Believe women- if a group of women saw this and were bothered enough to go to the lobby in their robes, I’m willing to go with whatever was going on was in the creepy column rather than a transwoman just trying to use a spa in peace.  Some males get off on violating the boundaries of and spaces designated for women.  To believe that creeps are above exploiting any and everything they can to do so is just silly.  

Minimizing this becuase it’s not covered by news sites you like is silly because this is not an issue that most media sites will touch with a 10 foot pole.  Self ID has real life, nuanced implications and flattening any and all concerns about it to bigotry on the part of women isn’t fair.  

Also this. 

 

We can't know, from just the snippet of video, what the truth was.  Those who were there should have been able to gauge with some level of accuracy what was really going on.  A moderate level of common sense, assessing the situation/reports from all witnesses, etc. should have revealed whether this was a legitimate situation, or someone making a power play.  It seems (for all the reasons in the quote directly above) that it was a power play. 

 

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58 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I seriously find this a weird part of our culture.  I never change in an open locker room.  I go into a stall or wait for the family bathroom if I have my kids..  Every time.  I find anyone being naked in the locker room to be strange, even if they are other women.  Why do we have this weird cultural carve out?   I hope it goes away completely.
 

My high school didn’t allow the open showers that my mom remembered from high school.  Non-athletes weren’t even allowed to shower, while my mother remembers it being required in her high school.   I hope open locker rooms are a thing my kids find as weird as corded telephone and Netflix in the mail.  Then this issue solves itself, snd a host of others.  
 

There’s also no way to tell if someone in the locker room area is a lesbian who enjoys naked females, or even if they are a trans person if they change in the stall like I do.   No way to tell.  Unless we check the pants of every modest or not conventionally attractive female trying to enter a locker room.  

We were required to shower in MS. In high school it was ‘recommended’. I had scheduled PE/Track at the end of the day and showered at home.

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What difference does it make if it was  “legitimate”  (just quoting another poster)?

i think that is confusing the issue. Men don’t belong in women’s spaces.

aren’t you getting into the “no true Scotsman” territory anyway? “No true  trans person would do this!”

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

We were required to shower in MS. In high school it was ‘recommended’. I had scheduled PE/Track at the end of the day and showered at home.

I was required to shower at one middle school but there were curtained off private areas for the showers.  My high school offered no sports or PE and there weren’t any shower facilities. It was an old and very out of code building.   I played sports outside of school and always had to go home or to a friends to shower after.  

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I find it interesting that the more countries get further away from God's ways and God's moral order, the more women are oppressed.  Look at what has happened to women's rights in just the past six months.  Women now may have to compete against biological males in sports thus threatening equality for women's sports that were fought for.  There are no safe spaces for women - women's shelters, women's locker rooms, women's bathroom can now be entered by males who only have to say they identify as women (not saying this is not true, just saying that a predatory man now has an excuse).  A trans man just won Miss Nevada thus making even a beauty competition not just for biological women.  Women are starting to lose the right to be called "mothers" (birthing person is preferred) or use the term "breastfeeding" (for the preferred chest feeding).  Jobs specifically saved for women (due to sex based quotas) can now be taken by men self identifying as women.  I have taught my daughter that if she sees a man in a women's bathroom to leave.  I am not going to teach her to be accepting of biological men in a space where she is supposed to feel safe.  Teen girls already have trouble changing in front of other girls.  Having a biological male in a girl's locker room?  Nope.  I will not willing to throw morality out the window in favor of "tolerance".  I am teaching my children to be kind to others regardless of how they identify because they are humans made in God's image and He loves them.  I am not teaching them to agree that all of this is morally right.  And yes, all of the above is oppressing women.  I'm not seeing the same assault on men.  

I know this is not the politically correct response on this forum.  I've been on this forum for 14 years.  It's changed.  It saddens me.

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5 hours ago, pinball said:

What difference does it make if it was  “legitimate”  (just quoting another poster)?

i think that is confusing the issue. Men don’t belong in women’s spaces.

aren’t you getting into the “no true Scotsman” territory anyway? “No true  trans person would do this!”

 

 

I see what you are saying and I do sympathize with people who want to maintain single sex facilities.  That said, IME thus far, I haven’t been bothered by transwomen in the bathroom or locker rooms.  If someone experiences profound gender dysphoria, walking around with their unaltered genitals out doesn’t seem to be behavior consistent with the dysphoria. I’ve just never seen a transwoman do that and if someone did, I would be skeptical as to their claim and motives for making it.  Because being trans has been redefined in such a way that dysphoria is not a required element and self ID is all but enshrined in law, it’s not shocking that the waters have been muddied quite a lot.  
 

I have a friend, an older married lesbian who, every year for 20+ years travelled to Michigan Womyn’s festival with her wife and their daughter.  The festival was eventually cancelled because they had a women born women policy and activists pressured bands to stop playing there.  My friend told me that some transwomen had always participated and it wasn’t an issue but that some very loud activists who wanted to push gender ideology over sexual orientation ruined it for all of them.  My friend was very much a live and let live person and I’m quite certain I’ve never heard her say a nasty word about trans people.  Her and her family were extremely frustrated by the loss of the festival as a woman’s only space and I don’t blame them.  One time nearly 20 years ago, I was standing with my brother outside of a club in Seattle waiting for the doors to open for a show headlined by a band who had performed at MichFest.  A young woman handed us a flyer decrying the band as transphobic and urged us to not see the show (which so wasn’t gonna happen- we’d been looking forwards to it for weeks).  My brother handed her flyer back and said something like “as a trans person, I know that I appreciate trans only spaces and I think women have a right to have and appreciate their own spaces too.”  The woman with the flyer didn’t quite know what to do with that.  

Edited by LucyStoner
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3 hours ago, Paige said:

Would we be any more comfortable with trans men in the women's nude area? So, a person who looks like a man except for the genitals? Or would we be comfortable with intersex nude people who perhaps have a small penis but feel more comfortable in the women's area?

I don't know. I don't know how you would enforce any of it. Would a rule of no exposed D- be possible? But I'm not sure that would help prevent creepy men who are doing it on purpose until it's too late. We can't have a rule that you have to "look like a woman" to go inside because then less feminine looking females or trans men not allowed in the men's room could be harassed. 

In this circumstance, it's hard to know what to think given I don't see any explanation from the person with the D- in the women's room. I suspect he's an exhibitionist pervert who identifies as male and is in no way trans. I think it's a difficult period for society because everyone is still figuring out how to respond. 

This would be a reasonable place to start. As I said earlier, exposed penises and testicles on grown-up bodies do not belong in women's spaces. ESPECIALLY when the women using the spaces are in various stages of undress themselves.

Honestly, I feel like we're all living in some 1984-esque world. Or we're being pranked. How is this even a debatable issue?

Edited by Hyacinth
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16 minutes ago, bethben said:

I find it interesting that the more countries get further away from God's ways and God's moral order, the more women are oppressed.

As a fellow Christian, I wish that reasoning wouldn’t be brought into this. It’s not going to reflect well, as it’s not really true, unfortunately. People are people. There are lots of reasons to discuss the issues raised by this (including several valid ones you brought up), none of which have anything to do with God or morality. I actually think what bathroom people use would be waaaaaaaay down God’s list (to the point of likely not appearing). We don’t want to legislate things in this country based on religion anyway. 

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24 minutes ago, bethben said:

I find it interesting that the more countries get further away from God's ways and God's moral order, the more women are oppressed.  Look at what has happened to women's rights in just the past six months.  Women now may have to compete against biological males in sports thus threatening equality for women's sports that were fought for.  There are no safe spaces for women - women's shelters, women's locker rooms, women's bathroom can now be entered by males who only have to say they identify as women (not saying this is not true, just saying that a predatory man now has an excuse).  A trans man just won Miss Nevada thus making even a beauty competition not just for biological women.  Women are starting to lose the right to be called "mothers" (birthing person is preferred) or use the term "breastfeeding" (for the preferred chest feeding).  Jobs specifically saved for women (due to sex based quotas) can now be taken by men self identifying as women.  I have taught my daughter that if she sees a man in a women's bathroom to leave.  I am not going to teach her to be accepting of biological men in a space where she is supposed to feel safe.  Teen girls already have trouble changing in front of other girls.  Having a biological male in a girl's locker room?  Nope.  I will not willing to throw morality out the window in favor of "tolerance".  I am teaching my children to be kind to others regardless of how they identify because they are humans made in God's image and He loves them.  I am not teaching them to agree that all of this is morally right.  And yes, all of the above is oppressing women.  I'm not seeing the same assault on men.  

I know this is not the politically correct response on this forum.  I've been on this forum for 14 years.  It's changed.  It saddens me.

Thank you for being brave enough to state this so eloquently.  I know there are those of us here who agree.  You are not alone.

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29 minutes ago, KSera said:

As a fellow Christian, I wish that reasoning wouldn’t be brought into this. It’s not going to reflect well, as it’s not really true, unfortunately. People are people. There are lots of reasons to discuss the issues raised by this (including several valid ones you brought up), none of which have anything to do with God or morality. I actually think what bathroom people use would be waaaaaaaay down God’s list (to the point of likely not appearing). We don’t want to legislate things in this country based on religion anyway. 

Seriously. There are a bunch of Islamic countries/governments that believe their laws are as close to God’s will as it gets and women are oppressed as much or more than they are here. Religiosity in any form, even Christianity, isn’t a balm against the abuse of women.

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I haven’t and won’t watch the video so I can’t speak to the current topic, but I can’t continue to ignore the transphobia that is so pervasive on this board.

Transgender individuals are 4 times as likely to be victims of violence as cisgender individuals.  Transwomen are 1.8 times as likely to experience sexual violence as ciswomen.  No matter how scared you are, trans individuals have more to fear.  

Reading this and other current threads has made me physically ill.  As the mother of a trans daughter I am saddened by the disregard most of the posters have for transgender individuals.  

Transwomen are not men!

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I am torn. There have been a lot of anti-trans threads here lately. I share *some* concerns. I don’t have a problem with trans women in beauty pageants (beauty is beauty), IDing as trans, at work, at play, using the bathroom at school or at the gym or what have you. I do have concerns about biological advantages in sport that may disadvantage other women. I do have concerns about trans women speaking IN PLACE OF, vs. alongside, women who’ve been socialized as women from birth as if the experiences are the same and interchangeable. I do have concerns about cis men using the issue to make trans women and men less safe. That said, this seems like a dude/man trying to make a point, running around naked for shock value. As in all cases, I’m not down with circumscribed freedoms b/c rando nut jobs/provocateurs do/say X. So, I’m gonna keep reading and listening and, with luck, learning.

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10 minutes ago, *Jessica* said:

I haven’t and won’t watch the video so I can’t speak to the current topic, but I can’t continue to ignore the transphobia that is so pervasive on this board.

Transgender individuals are 4 times as likely to be victims of violence as cisgender individuals.  Transwomen are 1.8 times as likely to experience sexual violence as ciswomen.  No matter how scared you are, trans individuals have more to fear.  

Reading this and other current threads has made me physically ill.  As the mother of a trans daughter I am saddened by the disregard most of the posters have for transgender individuals.  

Transwomen are not men!

Actually, Jessica, I would really like to hear your opinion on this particular situation.(There is no need to watch the video, because I’m asking a more general question.)

Do you, personally, as the parent of a transwoman, think non-surgically-transitioned transwomen should be permitted to walk around naked in a women’s locker room?  

I am genuinely curious, because you have a close family member who could be affected by this type of scenario, and I think your views on this would be very valuable and helpful.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, *Jessica* said:

I haven’t and won’t watch the video so I can’t speak to the current topic, but I can’t continue to ignore the transphobia that is so pervasive on this board.

Transgender individuals are 4 times as likely to be victims of violence as cisgender individuals.  Transwomen are 1.8 times as likely to experience sexual violence as ciswomen.  No matter how scared you are, trans individuals have more to fear.  

Reading this and other current threads has made me physically ill.  As the mother of a trans daughter I am saddened by the disregard most of the posters have for transgender individuals.  

Transwomen are not men!

It’s not transphobia to want a woman only place.

 

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33 minutes ago, Hyacinth said:

This would be a reasonable place to start. As I said earlier, exposed penises and testicles do not belong in women's spaces. ESPECIALLY when the women using the spaces are in various stages of undress themselves.

Honestly, I feel like we're all living in some 1984-esque world. Or we're being pranked. How is this even a debatable issue?

I don’t think it’s a reasonable place to start. I can understand your sentiment. 

It’s the salami method, though. Slice one: Well, men can come if they say their trans and they don’t show their peen.

What’s the next slice?  “well, they’re here, so if they are comfortable showing their peen, then who are we to say?”

No men in women’s spaces. I think that should be the line.

 

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12 minutes ago, pinball said:

It’s not transphobia to want a woman only place.

 

Yes, and if a transwoman still has a male body, that can create an issue, particularly in places where nudity is expected and biological women assume that no naked male bodies will be present. 

I don’t think it’s fair to call it transphobia when women don’t want naked male bodies in their female-only space.

This is one of the reasons why I hope Jessica will post her feelings on this. She is looking at this through the eyes of her own child, and I’d like to know what she thinks. 

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11 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Yes, and if a transwoman still has a male body, that can create an issue, particularly in places where nudity is expected and biological women assume that no naked male bodies will be present. 

I don’t think it’s fair to call it transphobia when women don’t want naked male bodies in their female-only space.

This is one of the reasons why I hope Jessica will post her feelings on this. She is looking at this through the eyes of her own child, and I’d like to know what she thinks. 

Is it really that straightforward? There were lots of women who gave me the evil eye when I brought my 8yo son into the dressing room after swim lessons. Guess how many Fs I gave? I didn’t feel safe with him in a men’s dressing room alone and I didn’t have a male partner around to do the duties.

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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Is it really that straightforward? There were lots of women who gave me the evil eye when I brought my 8yo son into the dressing room after swim lessons. Guess how many Fs I gave? I didn’t feel safe with him in a men’s dressing room alone and I didn’t have a male partner around to do the duties.

Our YMCA has changing rooms designed specifically for this situation - family dressing rooms.  If such a room were available in the building, I'd give you the side eye.  If not, I wouldn't. 

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2 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Our YMCA has changing rooms designed specifically for this situation - family dressing rooms.  If such a room were available in the building, I'd give you the side eye.  If not, I wouldn't. 

Side eye or no side eye, discomfort won’t stop people from doing what feels safer/best. And, no, this little Y didn’t have family bathrooms. It had a family stall or two that were always occupied after swim lessons. I wasn’t about to have my kiddos stand there shivering b/c some lady was in her feelings.

Edited by Sneezyone
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The weird thing about these conversations  (keeping transwomen out of bathrooms, gyms, etc) for me is that trans people have always been in there and they will continue to be no matter how much you complain about it. Like many others have said, no trans person I know is going to walk around a public space like that naked. They will use those spaces to change and do their business but will do so in private. So, unless you’re going to start doing a genital check they will still continue to be in those spaces. 

I do agree with the above poster that there have definitely been a lot of anti trans threads on the board lately. It’s getting old.

Edited by Joker2
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1 minute ago, Joker2 said:

The weird thing about these conversations  (keeping transwomen out of bathrooms, gyms, etc) for me is that they have always been in there and they will continue to be no matter how much you complain about it. Like many others have said, no trans person I know is going to walk around a public space like that naked. They will use those spaces to change and do their business but will do so in private. So, unless you’re going to start doing a genital check they will still continue to be in those spaces. 

I do agree with the above poster that there have definitely been a lot of anti trans threads on the board lately. It’s getting old.

I have said this all along....public bathrooms are not a place I would particularly describe as 'safe'.  I am always on high alert, and I like @Sneezyonetook my 8 year old boy with me many times--both to regular bathrooms and to swim changing rooms.  And there were times I let him go into the men's and either ask someone to check on him for me or I opened the door and hollered his name.  I don't feel like I have to  be MORE cautious now that there is a push for trans women to use women's bathrooms.  

And still and yet I don't want to see a penis as I walk through a dressing room.  

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12 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Side eye or no side eye, discomfort won’t stop people from doing what feels safer/best. And, no, this little Y didn’t have family bathrooms. It had a family stall or two that were always occupied after swim lessons. I wasn’t about to have my kiddos stand there shivering b/c some lady was in her feelings.

My older son’s autism is such that he wasn’t fully independent in dressing rooms until he was into the age range of high school.  We were fortunate enough that there was a large number of private change rooms at the Y for us to use.  In places were there weren’t, there were times after he was no longer comfortable himself going into the women’s room with me that we went to the van and drove home wet. Until he was about 8 or 9, he would go to the women’s with me but at some point, he was too embarrassed that he needed help to go into a group area.  

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Womens rights are being attacked by transgender rights, though.  When the woman comes to complain about a naked man in the women's area, this is what she heard:

1.  Calm down, you are upset- as if she has no right to be upset when a man is exposing himself to young girls

2.  Its the law, we cannot do anything about it, he has a right to be there

3.  Mansplainer telling her its a transwoman, so she is a bigot. She shouldn't be allowed to be upset at seeing a penis in the womens area. 

There were several women in the hall,  and they were all dismissed.  No one was concerned with womens or girls safety- and as a woman with girls, that worries me.   

 

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5 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

My older son’s autism is such that he wasn’t fully independent in dressing rooms until he was into the age range of high school.  We were fortunate enough that there was a large number of private change rooms at the Y for us to use.  In places were there weren’t, there were times after he was no longer comfortable himself going into the women’s room with me that we went to the van and drove home wet. Until he was about 8 or 9, he would go to the women’s with me but at some point, he was too embarrassed that he needed help to go into a group area.  

My DS just stopped taking lessons. When he no longer was able to safely accompany me and he didn’t feel comfy in the men’s room, he quit. His proficiency still doesn’t match DDs. My DS is also mildly autistic and he started late with lessons too. Until he could talk, he screamed as soon as he got near the pool. It does raise some disability rights questions. How do adults with cognitive/physical disabilities manage these issues?

Edited by Sneezyone
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37 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Is it really that straightforward? There were lots of women who gave me the evil eye when I brought my 8yo son into the dressing room after swim lessons. Guess how many Fs I gave? I didn’t feel safe with him in a men’s dressing room alone and I didn’t have a male partner around to do the duties.

Unless he is going through precocious puberty, no one’s 8 yo son is a man.

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1 hour ago, bethben said:

I find it interesting that the more countries get further away from God's ways and God's moral order, the more women are oppressed.  Look at what has happened to women's rights in just the past six months.  Women now may have to compete against biological males in sports thus threatening equality for women's sports that were fought for.  There are no safe spaces for women - women's shelters, women's locker rooms, women's bathroom can now be entered by males who only have to say they identify as women (not saying this is not true, just saying that a predatory man now has an excuse).  A trans man just won Miss Nevada thus making even a beauty competition not just for biological women.  Women are starting to lose the right to be called "mothers" (birthing person is preferred) or use the term "breastfeeding" (for the preferred chest feeding).  Jobs specifically saved for women (due to sex based quotas) can now be taken by men self identifying as women.  I have taught my daughter that if she sees a man in a women's bathroom to leave.  I am not going to teach her to be accepting of biological men in a space where she is supposed to feel safe.  Teen girls already have trouble changing in front of other girls.  Having a biological male in a girl's locker room?  Nope.  I will not willing to throw morality out the window in favor of "tolerance".  I am teaching my children to be kind to others regardless of how they identify because they are humans made in God's image and He loves them.  I am not teaching them to agree that all of this is morally right.  And yes, all of the above is oppressing women.  I'm not seeing the same assault on men.  

I know this is not the politically correct response on this forum.  I've been on this forum for 14 years.  It's changed.  It saddens me.

I’m still learning about the transgender issue and am likely somewhere in the middle on it (Sneezyzone described my position well), but in order to make your claim, you have to have very little knowledge of the extreme suffering and very limited rights and high amounts of abuse women face in many of the most religious countries in the world (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, several Latin American countries). And conversely, you must also be unaware of the high degree of equality and rights for women in some of the least religious countries in the world (e.g. New Zealand, Finland, Norway) . Further, I would posit that it took so long to get even to the level of women’s rights we have today in the US largely due to the past dominance of conservative Christian denominations and their continued outsized political influence. 
 

 

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Far out.

I don't care how lovely and kind your anecdotal trans friends are. Are you trying to say that being 'truly trans' means they're incapable of being jerks? Are you saying that no true trans would ever use their male genitalia to rape? Because I have some links for you. Creating a special class of sinless, untouchable people doesn't usually go well, and seems pretty patronising to trans people who are as human and flawed as the rest of us.

It's not up to women and girls to discern the true soul of the male body in front of them. The unexpected, naked male body in what was supposed to be a safe, female only space. This person already crossed a boundary and already signalled his lack of respect or empathy with women. 

Are you saying that this business, just shouldn't exist because a) all naked bodies icky anyway or b) all naked bodies awesome! So again, women are supposed to just suck it up and lose another space because it is too hard to tell some males no.

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5 minutes ago, pinball said:

Unless he is going through precocious puberty, no one’s 8 yo son is a man.

You haven’t met my son. He’s tall like DH and hairy like my dad. Most Black boys are perceived to be older than they actually are despite their equally rangy frames. At 13, people usually assume he’s older than my rising junior. This is tangential tho. I agree that the individual in this instance apparently had a perfectly reasonable coed space and chose not to use it. That’s a jerk move.

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Just now, Sneezyone said:

You haven’t met my son. Most Black boys are perceived to be older than they actually are despite their equally rangy frames. At 13, people usually assume he’s older than my rising junior.

You said 8.

a 13 yo boys doesn’t belong in a women’s only space

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1 minute ago, pinball said:

You said 8.

a 13 yo boys doesn’t belong in a women’s only space

At 8 years old, my son was also tall and hairy. His perceived age doesn’t match his actual age, that was my point. White people, in particular, overestimate his age and always have.

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30 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

My DS just stopped taking lessons. When he no longer was able to safely accompany me and he didn’t feel comfy in the men’s room, he quit. His proficiency still doesn’t match DDs. My DS is also mildly autistic and he started late with lessons too. Until he could talk, he screamed as soon as he got near the pool. It does raise some disability rights questions. How do adults with cognitive/physical disabilities manage these issues?

The private “family changing” rooms that people seem to cite as the gold standard were I think often initially installed as spaces for disabled people who needed assistance.  I’ve lived in the same area for a long time and some of the older facilities here that have 1-3 family spaces now, those are just renamed spaces that used to be prioritized for those with disabilities.  Caregivers are often not the same sex as the person who needs extra support. One of my cousins is in his early 20s and requires assistance and my first cousin (his mom) will take him into the women’s if there’s no alternative.  It’s frustrating for her that people who don’t need to use the private locking family rooms (say, a single person choosing the use the family toilet over the men’s or women’s at a store like Target or the movies, so where there’s no nudity or changing in congregate settings going on).  Now that my boys don’t need assistance, I choose to not use the family rooms whenever possible so that people with a greater need for them can access them without delay.  

My older son really never learned to swim before this spring.  I finally bit the bullet and started paying ~1/2 a gazillion dollars a week for 1-1 private adaptive swim lessons.  He’s never going to be a serious swimmer but he can finally float and stick his face in the water and is starting to learn to paddle a bit.  He was motivated to do this because he wants to go to canoe camp this summer and he wants to row crew next year and I told him boat sports = needing to know the basics of not drowning.  

Edited by LucyStoner
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Just now, Sneezyone said:

At 8 years old, my son was also tall and hairy. His perceived age doesn’t match his actual age, that was my point. White people, in particular, overestimate his age and always have.

Most 8 year olds have hair

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1 hour ago, *Jessica* said:

I haven’t and won’t watch the video so I can’t speak to the current topic, but I can’t continue to ignore the transphobia that is so pervasive on this board.

Transgender individuals are 4 times as likely to be victims of violence as cisgender individuals.  Transwomen are 1.8 times as likely to experience sexual violence as ciswomen.  No matter how scared you are, trans individuals have more to fear.  

Reading this and other current threads has made me physically ill.  As the mother of a trans daughter I am saddened by the disregard most of the posters have for transgender individuals.  

Transwomen are not men!

Please engage in the discussion.  Shaming is not a way to share your opinion.  There have been some very real concerns about trans issues raised on all the threads--from  medicalization without vetting, to the complete shutting down of conversations, to the rights of women being eroded.  If you disagree, tell us why.  Many of the women sharing have trans children they love very much and they want to explore the very real issues being raised.

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2 hours ago, bethben said:

I know this is not the politically correct response on this forum.  I've been on this forum for 14 years.  It's changed.  It saddens me.

I appreciate all perspectives. That is how I learn and grow in my own thinking. Thanks for sharing.

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1 hour ago, *Jessica* said:

I haven’t and won’t watch the video so I can’t speak to the current topic, but I can’t continue to ignore the transphobia that is so pervasive on this board.

Transgender individuals are 4 times as likely to be victims of violence as cisgender individuals.  Transwomen are 1.8 times as likely to experience sexual violence as ciswomen.  No matter how scared you are, trans individuals have more to fear.  

Reading this and other current threads has made me physically ill.  As the mother of a trans daughter I am saddened by the disregard most of the posters have for transgender individuals.  

Transwomen are not men!

Transwomen are male.

That person flashing their penis didn't seem so scared. The many women and their young daughters running out in their robes seemed scared to me. My kindness in this situation is for them.

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44 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

The private “family changing” rooms that people seem to cite as the gold standard were I think often initially installed as spaces for disabled people who needed assistance.  I’ve lived in the same area for a long time and some of the older facilities here that have 1-3 family spaces now, those are just renamed spaces that used to be prioritized for those with disabilities.  Caregivers are often not the same sex as the person who needs extra support. One of my cousins is in his early 20s and requires assistance and my first cousin (his mom) will take him into the women’s if there’s no alternative.  It’s frustrating for her that people who don’t need to use the private locking family rooms (say, a single person choosing the use the family toilet over the men’s or women’s at a store like Target or the movies, so where there’s no nudity or changing in congregate settings going on).

My older son really never learned to swim before this spring.  I finally bit the bullet and started paying ~1/2 a gazillion dollars a week for 1-1 private adaptive swim lessons.  He’s never going to be a serious swimmer but he can finally float and stick his face in the water and is starting to learn to paddle a bit.  He was motivated to do this because he wants to go to canoe camp this summer and he wants to row crew next year and I told him boat sports = needing to know the basics of not drowning.  

Interesting. I’d never thought about where those neutral changing stalls came from. DS stopped swimming at 10 and hasn’t done anything in the last two years so I’m probably a little obsessed (read panicked) about him going to a sleep away camp with river activities. I made sure to mention that I wanted him to wear a swim vest at all times.

Edited by Sneezyone
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59 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Is it really that straightforward? There were lots of women who gave me the evil eye when I brought my 8yo son into the dressing room after swim lessons. Guess how many Fs I gave? I didn’t feel safe with him in a men’s dressing room alone and I didn’t have a male partner around to do the duties.

Yes, I think it is. 

We aren’t talking about little boys in the ladies locker room. This was an adult male. 

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2 minutes ago, pinball said:

So we are back to precocious puberty.

and I’m done this is ridiculous 

Ignorance like yours kills. Like Tamir Rice. It’s not ‘precocious’. It’s different.

Edited by Sneezyone
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Just now, pinball said:

So we are back to precocious puberty.

and I’m done this is ridiculous 

Also, this is about a naked adult male in a woman-only area, not a little boy with his mom in the locker room at the Y. I think those are two entirely different situations.

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