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Viral Video: Nude man enters women's locker room.


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Exposed penises and testicles on grown-up bodies do not belong in spaces designated for women.

That this is a controversial statement is bewildering to me. 

Edited by Hyacinth
Clarification
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Back a hundred billion years ago, in the age of the dinosaurs, when I was at college, we had coed dorms with coed communal bathrooms. Everything had separate stalls with tall doors, both for showering and for dressing. I saw the same when I have lived abroad.Our local pool a few cities ago had the same setup, with some rooms family sized and some rooms individual sized.

I’d like to see that adapted more broadly here.

I don’t have the same hang ups about body parts that a lot of other Americans have but we should all have access to choose spaces where we don’t see anyone’s junk, male or female, if we don’t want to.

Edited by prairiewindmomma
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11 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Back a hundred billion years ago, in the age of the dinosaurs, when I was at college, we had coed dorms with coed communal bathrooms. Everything had separate stalls with tall doors, both for showering and for dressing. I saw the same when I have lived abroad.Our local pool a few cities ago had the same setup, with some rooms family sized and some rooms individual sized.

I’d like to see that adapted more broadly here.

I don’t have the same hang ups about body parts that a lot of other Americans have but we should all have access to choose spaces where we don’t see anyone’s junk, male or female, if we don’t want to.

I agree. I personally do think the American culture has some how managed to make itself hyper sexualized and then freaked at a glimpse of genitalia and heaven forbid, breast feeding. So I am just a big fan of private spaces and closed doors. We don't need male or female spaces, we need private spaces.

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I’m ok with gender neutral single occupancy spaces but they do dramatically increase costs.   Making communal spaces co-ed is an idea that is floated a lot but it doesn’t address the needs of all users of the space.  One of my clients serves the local East African community- co-ed spaces for toilets, dressing rooms and showers wouldn’t be accessible as the vast majority are practicing Muslims.   There are of course other faiths and cultures where co-ed spaces would mean the space was not culturally accessible.  

Also, as a CSA survivor for many, many years, a co-ed space would have just meant I would have chosen to not go swimming or to shower. I’ve reached a point where it wouldn’t be an issue for me in most cases but I know I am unfortunately far from alone in that history.  Abuse survivors shouldn’t have to explain why single sex or single occupancy spaces have value- it should be relatively obvious.  We can say that we should live in a world where that’s not a consideration but we are clearly NOT living in that world and won’t be living in it anytime in the foreseeable future.  

Edited by LucyStoner
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27 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree. I personally do think the American culture has some how managed to make itself hyper sexualized and then freaked at a glimpse of genitalia and heaven forbid, breast feeding. So I am just a big fan of private spaces and closed doors. We don't need male or female spaces, we need private spaces.

When I was a new mom with my oldest, I walked into the nursing room at Babies R Us and a dude was just sitting there.  I didn’t feel like getting into anything with him, I spun on my heel and left.  The man didn’t have a child with him and if he had, it wasn’t like there weren’t changing spaces in the men’s room at BRU circa 2003 so it was not possible to know WTF he was doing there.

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I recall when the beginning arguments were made in favor of allowing trans women in the women's restroom, and trans men in the men's restroom, that "indecent exposure" would still be "indecent exposure" and illegal behaviors would still be illegal behaviors. So, exposing oneself to minors (as indicated in the article) &/or to others unwillingly/against their wishes, should still be criminal. 

I don't know how indecent exposure works in a space where nudity is part of what's going on.....but I would think with minors present, keeping it single-sexed would be extra important. 

I could see perhaps a locker room where all of the nudity is behind closed doors might be a different thing, but this sounds like something different. 

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34 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

When I was a new mom with my oldest, I walked into the nursing room at Babies R Us and a dude was just sitting there.  I didn’t feel like getting into anything with him, I spun on my heel and left.  The man didn’t have a child with him and if he had, it wasn’t like there weren’t changing spaces in the men’s room at BRU circa 2003 so it was not possible to know WTF he was doing there.

I would have gotten out of there quickly, too!

There is no way I would have confronted some random potential wacko in an empty public restroom. Not a chance. 

If I had my wits about me, I would have reported it to a manager, but my main priority would have been to get my child and myself out of there and make sure the guy didn’t follow us.

 

Edited by Catwoman
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That's the law. 

The spa needed to implement a no-nudity policy as soon as their so-called single sex rooms went single gender. 

Might have been nice if they gave their female clients a heads up that they didn't provide single sex facilities any more. 

Of course, any facility that did offer a single sex alternative for women who aren't all cool and comfy with a literal d*ck' swinging man in their space would get harassed into oblivion.

So that's the law now. Doesn't matter about your trauma, DFAB, or your religion, or your desire not to get naked with strange men. 

 

 

 

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Years ago, I used to go to a women’s only gym.  I was looking for one to join last year and found that other than a couple of surviving Curves franchises that are +\- an hour from here, there are none.  I’m not surprised (large chains dominate the fitness club market and small local clubs are hard to make economically viable) but I am disappointed.  

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In Germany and nearby countries, there are many, many spas with coed nudity. Nobody flips out about it unless it's unexpected and out of context. Nobody stares at others - that would be rude. And most of the people using the spas are elderly, normal, non-buff people. It's just not a sexual space. 

I think we'll wind up with private spaces here. We're very sexualized. Perhaps too much so.

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1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

When I was a new mom with my oldest, I walked into the nursing room at Babies R Us and a dude was just sitting there.  I didn’t feel like getting into anything with him, I spun on my heel and left.  The man didn’t have a child with him and if he had, it wasn’t like there weren’t changing spaces in the men’s room at BRU circa 2003 so it was not possible to know WTF he was doing there.

Holy crap! What a creep!

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3 minutes ago, elroisees said:

In Germany and nearby countries, there are many, many spas with coed nudity. Nobody flips out about it unless it's unexpected and out of context. Nobody stares at others - that would be rude. And most of the people using the spas are elderly, normal, non-buff people. It's just not a sexual space. 

I think we'll wind up with private spaces here. We're very sexualized. Perhaps too much so.

"Flips out" - would you actually use that type of dismissive language to a girl or woman who needs single sex space or else find herself excluded from the space entirely? 

This spa had three sections. One was for males, one for females, and one for both males and females. D*ck' swinging man had two spaces he could use, but he chose to use the one space he did not belong. 

Cool people who prefer to spa in a mixed sex environment had that option. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

"Flips out" - would you actually use that type of dismissive language to a girl or woman who needs single sex space or else find herself excluded from the space entirely? 

This spa had three sections. One was for males, one for females, and one for both males and females. D*ck' swinging man had two spaces he could use, but he chose to use the one space he did not belong. 

Cool people who prefer to spa in a mixed sex environment had that option. 

 

Oh, I see what you're saying. No, he was definitely unexpected and out of context! I'd probably flip out myself, here in the US, where I have an expectation about the environment. 

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As far as bathrooms, I still like it ladies only.  I hate the sticky floors, guys still drip to be blunt.  And it doesn't smell like urine as much in the ladies room compared to when there is a gender neutral bathroom. I am not even going to touch on the main point of the thread, I have not looked up the link at this time. Just giving my 2c. about bathrooms!  

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So, private change stalls aren't really relevant in this situation because it is also a communal bathing area where people are nude. Once people change they go to the men's or women's bathing area.

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Here's a YouTube link

I think this woman is fierce! Good for her.

I think the kind of male who would do this is a deliberate boundary pusher who obviously does not actually empathize with women.

I think the man whose first response is to immediately come to the defense of a random penis person, to not even entertain the idea of listening to or protecting the multiple women and girls, is a smarmy mansplaining, misogynist.

I think this whole situation is so bloody predictable. Now, apparently, the existence of indecent exposure relies on the inner feelings of the penis-haver. Which is, of course, much more valuable than the actual, material experience of the people we used to call women.😡

Edited by LMD
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2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree. I personally do think the American culture has some how managed to make itself hyper sexualized and then freaked at a glimpse of genitalia and heaven forbid, breast feeding. So I am just a big fan of private spaces and closed doors. We don't need male or female spaces, we need private spaces.

Women and girls went into a space where they were prepared to see female nude bodies, so I don’t think it is a fair characterization AT ALL that they got freaked out at a glimpse of genitalia.

Some women WANT and DESIRE AND LOVE women’s space so it’d be more respectful for you to speak for what YOU need, not what “we” need.

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1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

We could give them a name. 

So, DFAB - I understand it means designated female at birth but it actual use is it used to refer to women and if so why not just call them women?

Or is it used to refer to people labled female but who later decide that they are actually male in which case we call them trans ftm?

I am asking this honestly as I really don't know.

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Just now, KidsHappen said:

So, DFAB - I understand it means designated female at birth but it actual use is it used to refer to women and if so why not just call them women?

Or is it used to refer to people labled female but who later decide that they are actually male in which case we call them trans ftm?

I am asking this honestly as I really don't know.

DFAB means women and girls.  It's an  inaccurate term. Sex is observed, often in utero, not 'designated' or 'assigned'. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

DFAB means women and girls.  It's an  inaccurate term. Sex is observed, often in utero, not 'designated' or 'assigned'. 

 

It’s now possible to categorize sex *quite early* in pregnancy with a blood test.  It wasn’t an option when I had my sons but my pregnant friends now are able to, if they want, find out the baby’s sex much earlier than it is visible to an U/S tech.  

The language assigned/designated at birth was cribbed from the intersex community where it is true that doctors and/or parents would make a determination to assign a sex to an infant with a DSD.  Some intersex folks consider it to be appropriation of the terms used to describe the challenges they face.  

Edited by LucyStoner
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I don't care too much about who is actually in my locker room as long as they don't have a camera, aren't acting creepy and are honestly there to shower and change. Which honestly shouldn't take more than 15 mins. I have an issue with people hanging out in my locker room naked not changing and not showering just hanging out in all their glory. Then in that case I don't care what genitalia you have I am uncomfortable. 

If you just showered and change I wouldn't know what you have going on, because I'm also busy showering and changing.

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3 hours ago, elroisees said:

In Germany and nearby countries, there are many, many spas with coed nudity. Nobody flips out about it unless it's unexpected and out of context. Nobody stares at others - that would be rude. And most of the people using the spas are elderly, normal, non-buff people. It's just not a sexual space. 

I think we'll wind up with private spaces here. We're very sexualized. Perhaps too much so.

I think in our current context, private spaces are the only practical option. That’s very expensive, though. Perhaps there could be a combination of private spaces for people who want them, and then mixed spaces for people who don’t care. That gets around the problem of people feeling discriminated against if required to use the space for people of their sex. Plus, just separating by sex doesn’t work for everyone anymore, because a trans man in the women’s area is a different set of problems, as does a trans woman in the men’s area. And I don’t even know where a non-binary person goes. With Covid, dc hasn’t had to figure that out yet, but will very soon. They think they belong in the men’s rooms, because they think it’s not fair now for them to go in the women’s ones, since they don’t look clearly female. I find that very scary 😢. They don’t look male either, and are tiny. I’m pretty sure no one would think a thing about them in the women’s room. They wouldn’t be like it sounds this guy was, making a spectacle of themself (I don’t actually know if that’s true in this story, because I didn’t want to click on a video and couldn’t find the story on a middle of the road kind of source. It’s all over the place on very right wing sites, but not at all on middle or left-wing sites that I could find. That’s possibly telling in both directions. Or, it just didn’t actually happen like that. I don’t think specifics of this particular case actually matter to have this discussion, though.)
 

Do the countries with mixed space nudity have lower rates of sexual assault overall than we do in the US? While I would be uncomfortable changing around a stranger with male anatomy, but with others around, it would be an absolute no way, no how, if I were the only one in a changing room except someone with male anatomy. That just goes against all my fear instincts 😢.

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There are places where there is mixed sex bathing, and I think that's fine.

But I also think it's fine when public baths are se segregated, and in North American society that's what most people would prefer. Some religions simply don't allow mixed sex bathing, much less nude bathing. I used to swim at a YWCA pool that often had women only sessions for those groups. 

The idea that the law doesn't allow for that seems a little crazy. I might not care so much about a mixed change room, but I would not really want to be nude in a public bath with my teenage daughters and have it mixed sex.

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8 hours ago, SlowRiver said:

There are places where there is mixed sex bathing, and I think that's fine.

But I also think it's fine when public baths are se segregated, and in North American society that's what most people would prefer. Some religions simply don't allow mixed sex bathing, much less nude bathing. I used to swim at a YWCA pool that often had women only sessions for those groups. 

The idea that the law doesn't allow for that seems a little crazy. I might not care so much about a mixed change room, and I'm typically very blase about male and female nudity, but I would not really want to be nude in a public bath with my teenage daughters and have it mixed sex. It just wouldn't be very relaxing.

 

Edited by SlowRiver
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What bugs me is this-every trans person I know IRL just wants to blend in and not be noticed, and folks with gender dysphoria often have so much trouble with their physical body that even taking a shower or changing clothes is hard because their body doesn't match their mental picture of what they should be. But jerks like this guy are contributing to laws like the one just passed in my state. Which, if you take it to the limit, would affect any business that allows parents Or caregivers of special needs individuals because you're not always so lucky as to have everyone's body parts match. Because no one really wants to see anyone else's genitals bouncing around, but laws don't just prohibit  "exhibitionistic guy who takes advantage of inclusive policies to get his jollies"-they end up limiting a lot more people than that. 

 

I think the answer is going to be more family bathrooms, etc. Except that a single adult using one means that a family or someone needing assistance doesn't have access (similar to putting the changing table in the accessible stall-it makes sense, since it has room, but it also drastically increases demand). So that's not a perfect solution, either. 

 

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

But jerks like this guy are contributing to laws like the one just passed in my state. 

(Emphasis mine.)

And I think this is the point. From what we can tell, given the portion of the incident that appears in the linked video, I would guess that the person who entered the room nude did so as a deliberate provocation. Which, whether intentional or not, gives ammunition to people whose agenda is exclusionary. 

This one guy behaved like a jerk. That doesn't mean trans people don't have the right to be treated with dignity and compassion and accepted for who they are.

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35 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I think the answer is going to be more family bathrooms, etc. Except that a single adult using one means that a family or someone needing assistance doesn't have access (similar to putting the changing table in the accessible stall-it makes sense, since it has room, but it also drastically increases demand). So that's not a perfect solution, either. 

 

I hope as things are updated/remodeled, we move to more facilities like this that just have private showers/dressing rooms, etc.  Frankly, I'm not thrilled with women who think they need to do full hair and makeup buck naked either.  I always ran my own kids through any dressing room super fast.  It would be interesting to know the background of the person abusing the policy from the OP.  Because to me it reads as someone trying to make a point.  I live in a trans friendly area, we know a number of trans youth and haven't heard of anything like this going on.  Like above, these people are much more likely NOT to want to use a public locker room.  

The mixed private facilities are super common in Europe.  And I don't notice things get grosser by mixed use.  Maybe those with an issue learn how to aim better.  There is really no reason a men's restroom needs to be gross.  

Edited by FuzzyCatz
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14 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

It’s now possible to categorize sex *quite early* in pregnancy with a blood test.  It wasn’t an option when I had my sons but my pregnant friends now are able to, if they want, find out the baby’s sex much earlier than it is visible to an U/S tech.  

The language assigned/designated at birth was cribbed from the intersex community where it is true that doctors and/or parents would make a determination to assign a sex to an infant with a DSD.  Some intersex folks consider it to be appropriation of the terms used to describe the challenges they face.  

Yep. I knew ds4 was male by about nine weeks post conception.

Not assigned male. Male. A human with XY chromosomes.

Because those chromosomes were floating around in my blood.

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3 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I hope as things are updated/remodeled, we move to more facilities like this that just have private showers/dressing rooms, etc.  Frankly, I'm not thrilled with women who think they need to do full hair and makeup buck naked either.  I always ran my own kids through any dressing room super fast.  It would be interesting to know the background of the person abusing the policy from the OP.  Because to me it reads as someone trying to make a point.  I live in a trans friendly area, we know a number of trans youth and haven't heard of anything like this going on.  Like above, these people are much more likely NOT to want to use a public locker room.  

The mixed private facilities are super common in Europe.  And I don't notice things get grosser by mixed use.  Maybe those with an issue learn how to aim better.  There is really no reason a men's restroom needs to be gross.  

I think it is pretty much a fact that men who know they are sharing a bathroom with women take more care.

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1 minute ago, FuzzyCatz said:

 It would be interesting to know the background of the person abusing the policy from the OP.  Because to me it reads as someone trying to make a point.  I live in a trans friendly area, we know a number of trans youth and haven't heard of anything like this going on.  Like above, these people are much more likely NOT to want to use a public locker room.  

Exactly. I went looking for more information or context about the incident from any credible site. All I can find anywhere is this exact same clip, followed by a series of outraged commentary about "those people."

I cannot imagine a trans woman taking this kind of action. She is much more likely to want to stay covered and move through the space unobtrusively or to avoid it entirely because she would not feel safe there.

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8 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

(Emphasis mine.)

And I think this is the point. From what we can tell, given the portion of the incident that appears in the linked video, I would guess that the person who entered the room nude did so as a deliberate provocation. Which, whether intentional or not, gives ammunition to people whose agenda is exclusionary. 

This one guy behaved like a jerk. That doesn't mean trans people don't have the right to be treated with dignity and compassion and accepted for who they are.

A significant aspect of who they are is the biological sex they were at conception. They can be a lot of other things as well, but that fundamental truth remains.

And biological females have good reason in many cases to want some spaces where they can be confident they will not encounter biological males. 

FEMALES ARE VULNERABLE AND DESERVE PROTECTION.

Most violence of all kinds against women and girls comes from males.

We don't need separate changing spaces for men and women because people just happened to identify as different genders. We need separate changing spaces because we are a sexually dimorphic species in which one sex is vulnerable to the sexual aggression of the other sex and many members of the more vulnerable sex feel safest not being naked around members of the opposite sex.

If transwomen desire to be treated with dignity and compassion they should surely start by treating biological females, Women, with dignity and compassion. That would include understanding the natural vulnerability of females and working to protect female spaces from biological males.

"You have to accept me and my male body into your female space" is not treating others with dignity and compassion. 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

(Emphasis mine.)

And I think this is the point. From what we can tell, given the portion of the incident that appears in the linked video, I would guess that the person who entered the room nude did so as a deliberate provocation. Which, whether intentional or not, gives ammunition to people whose agenda is exclusionary. 

This one guy behaved like a jerk. That doesn't mean trans people don't have the right to be treated with dignity and compassion and accepted for who they are.

Agreed. The laws have to be written to still be able to differentiate between the two -- a male person taking advantage of/hiding behind/wearing trans-protective laws as a shield for gross behavior (which should still be illegal), vs. a trans woman who rightfully belongs in the space where she feels most comfortable and where she is also less vulnerable. 

Surely there's a way to protect the vulnerable *and* penalize those who seek to abuse/harass the vulnerable. 

(side note: this reminds me a little of the "zero tolerance" policies about weapons in school, where even a 1st grader with a GI Joe toy that includes a tiny GI Joe sized toy pistol ends up suspended because there can't be weapons in school.  The reverse of that is what's going on here with this whole "but she identifies as female so...." as cover for "...therefore is allowed to walk around, nude, exposing 'her' male anatomy in a female-anatomy-only location, because she said she identifies that way....."  YES, protect trans people's rights.  But also YES, do so with common sense and a bit of discernment at when you are being played.) 

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32 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Exactly. I went looking for more information or context about the incident from any credible site. All I can find anywhere is this exact same clip, followed by a series of outraged commentary about "those people."

I cannot imagine a trans woman taking this kind of action. She is much more likely to want to stay covered and move through the space unobtrusively or to avoid it entirely because she would not feel safe there.

I tried finding more information about this online and can't find anything beyond the outrage. 

We all need to stop being so outraged by these viral videos. We have no idea what happened before or after or who these people are. 

 

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17 hours ago, hippymamato3 said:

DFAB?

 

Also commonly known as AFAB/AMAB — assigned female/male at birth. The importance being that sex and gender obviously don’t always align. If they did, there wouldn’t be trans and non binary folks, but clearly there are and always have been. 

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42 minutes ago, maize said:

A significant aspect of who they are is the biological sex they were at conception. They can be a lot of other things as well, but that fundamental truth remains.

And biological females have good reason in many cases to want some spaces where they can be confident they will not encounter biological males. 

FEMALES ARE VULNERABLE AND DESERVE PROTECTION.

Most violence of all kinds against women and girls comes from males.

We don't need separate changing spaces for men and women because people just happened to identify as different genders. We need separate changing spaces because we are a sexually dimorphic species in which one sex is vulnerable to the sexual aggression of the other sex and many members of the more vulnerable sex feel safest not being naked around members of the opposite sex.

If transwomen desire to be treated with dignity and compassion they should surely start by treating biological females, Women, with dignity and compassion. That would include understanding the natural vulnerability of females and working to protect female spaces from biological males.

"You have to accept me and my male body into your female space" is not treating others with dignity and compassion. 

 

 

You and I will simply have to agree to disagree about your first statement. 

And, again, given the complete lack of context with which this video is presented, we have no actual evidence that the person who prompted this incident identifies as transgender. Until and unless we get that information from a credible source, the outrage expressed in this thread is unfounded. And, even if that information is confirmed, any outrage should be directed at this particular individual and not seen as condemnation of trans people generally.

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3 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

You and I will simply have to agree to disagree about your first statement. 

And, again, given the complete lack of context with which this video is presented, we have no actual evidence that the person who prompted this incident identifies as transgender. Until and unless we get that information from a credible source, the outrage expressed in this thread is unfounded. And, even if that information is confirmed, any outrage should be directed at this particular individual and not seen as condemnation of trans people generally.

I may be misunderstanding you, Jenny, so I wanted to clarify.

Are you saying that it would be acceptable for a trans woman whose body is still biologically male, to walk naked through a women’s locker room?

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41 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

You and I will simply have to agree to disagree about your first statement. 

And, again, given the complete lack of context with which this video is presented, we have no actual evidence that the person who prompted this incident identifies as transgender. Until and unless we get that information from a credible source, the outrage expressed in this thread is unfounded. And, even if that information is confirmed, any outrage should be directed at this particular individual and not seen as condemnation of trans people generally.

I don't think agreeing to disagree about the actual material reality of biological sex is a rational thing to do, anymore than agreeing to disagree about whether the earth is flat or round would be rational. There are true, verifiable facts and the reality of sexed bodies is one of them.

I am not condemning trans people.

The difficulty we are up against is that we CANNOT protect women within women's spaces if we define woman in such a way that all a biological male has to do in order to gain admittance to women's spaces is self-identify as a woman. Subjective and self-referential standards offer no legal protection at all.

If, in this case, there is a conflict of interest between transwomen and biological females it is the transwomen who need to find solutions that preserve the rights of biological females.

Otherwise we are just back to the old story of males deciding what rights women do and do not have. 

 

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50 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I may be misunderstanding you, Jenny, so I wanted to clarify.

Are you saying that it would be acceptable for a trans woman whose body is still biologically male, to walk naked through a women’s locker room?

I don't know what Jenny is saying, but what I'm saying is that I truly do not know a single trans person, biologically male or biologically female, who would do so. Because even if they have reached a place where they are comfortable with their body as is, having other people see them as being not what they feel they truly are, and worse yet, comment or react on it, is their worst nightmare. It also puts them at serious risk-trans individuals are far more likely to be assault victims than to victimize others.

 

Obviously, I don't know for sure that this guy isn't trans, but I am willing to bet he doesn't have any gender or body dysphoria! 

 

For me, someone in the same public bathroom or locker room having different genitals isn't that big of a deal. Someone in the same public bathroom or locker room being aggressive, exhibitionistic, or threatening is. And I've definitely experienced all three,albeit mostly when I was a bullied, late maturing teen, in all female situations. 

Edited by Dmmetler
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1 hour ago, TheReader said:

Agreed. The laws have to be written to still be able to differentiate between the two -- a male person taking advantage of/hiding behind/wearing trans-protective laws as a shield for gross behavior (which should still be illegal), vs. a trans woman who rightfully belongs in the space where she feels most comfortable and where she is also less vulnerable. 

Surely there's a way to protect the vulnerable *and* penalize those who seek to abuse/harass the vulnerable. 

(side note: this reminds me a little of the "zero tolerance" policies about weapons in school, where even a 1st grader with a GI Joe toy that includes a tiny GI Joe sized toy pistol ends up suspended because there can't be weapons in school.  The reverse of that is what's going on here with this whole "but she identifies as female so...." as cover for "...therefore is allowed to walk around, nude, exposing 'her' male anatomy in a female-anatomy-only location, because she said she identifies that way....."  YES, protect trans people's rights.  But also YES, do so with common sense and a bit of discernment at when you are being played.) 

Honest question — How do we, as biological women, know when we are “being played” when we are in a women’s locker room and a biological, non-surgically-transitioned male walks around naked in there with us? How can we determine if that person is a trans woman or just some random pervert getting his jollies by walking around in a women’s locker room? We can’t. We have no way of knowing. And we deserve to feel safe.

 

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12 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I don't know what Jenny is saying, but what I'm saying is that I truly do not know a single trans person, biologically male or biologically female, who would do so. Because even if they have reached a place where they are comfortable with their body as is, having other people see them as being not what they feel they truly are, and worse yet, comment or react on it, is their worst nightmare. It also puts them at serious risk-trans individuals are far more likely to be assault victims than to victimize others.

 

Obviously, I don't know for sure that this guy isn't trans, but I am willing to bet he doesn't have any gender or body dysphoria! 

I agree with you! 

I only have one close trans friend, but I can tell you that they would never think of using the locker room that didn’t match their biological sex. They would never want to make other people feel uncomfortable — and would never want to draw attention to their  bodies in that way. They don’t want to advertise that their physical bodies don’t match their gender. 

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So if there is going to be a law requiring xys to be allowed in spaces designated for "women" where there will be some level of nudity, then there also needs to be a law requiring the provision of spaces where individuals who do not want to participate in that can have privacy.

The laws' effectiveness needs to be timed so that those of us who don't want to participate have said privacy before it becomes an issue.

And everyone using the facilities needs to be informed of the applicable laws and options, so they can make informed choices.

I really don't care if people are given the option of sharing a non-private space with diverse bodies.  You do you.  But as for me, I want privacy.  I look forward to the day when we can all have a totally private changing space, one way or another.  (As it is, I change in a toilet stall when privacy isn't available, even in a female-only space.)

Edited by SKL
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I want privacy, too. But it's not due to a trans woman potentially being there. It's that I have enough something (modesty, dysphoria, or whatever you want to call it) that I seriously prefer NOT to be nude around people I don't know, nor to see the nudity of others. 

 

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Just now, Dmmetler said:

I want privacy, too. But it's not due to a trans woman potentially being there. It's that I have enough something (modesty, dysphoria, or whatever you want to call it) that I seriously prefer NOT to be nude around people I don't know, nor to see the nudity of others. 

 

Are you saying you wouldn’t have gone into the nude area of this spa in the first place?

it looked like there were women who were there, and wanted to be there. 

I think if the man in the nude women’s area was there accidentally, there wouldn’t be a viral video. Bc the woman who is talking, and questioning the spa workers wouldn’t have questioned the spa workers about why he was allowed there, and why the spa wouldn’t/couldn’t  make him leave.

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14 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Honest question — How do we, as biological women, know when we are “being played” when we are in a women’s locker room and a biological, non-surgically-transitioned male walks around naked in there with us? How can we determine if that person is a trans woman or just some random pervert getting his jollies by walking around in a women’s locker room? We can’t. We have no way of knowing. And we deserve to feel safe.

 

I would be very comfortable in assuming that anyone, male or female, who walks around a locker room nude as opposed to quickly getting whatever business they need to do done and getting out, and indeed, anyone who spends a lot of time gazing at the bodies of others, is there to get their jollies, and to make such behavior grounds for immediate eviction and inability to return. Because I've experienced such behavior from people who had female bodies and seemed to quite enjoy showing off and making comments about other people's bodies, and honestly, I don't know that a man in the locker room could have possibly made me feel worse. 

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