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Talk to me about liturgical denominations


plansrme
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We recently changed churches after 20 years. My husband and I love the new church. My son, I learned this weekend, does not. He had, instead, scoped out a Lutheran-Missouri synod congregation that he was willing to visit alone, so we all went. The church was lovely; the people were lovely; but the service did not speak to me at all, not one tiny bit. I cannot imagine doing that every Sunday and do not understand the appeal. My son, however, liked it a lot. But in the interest of worshiping together this last year before he leaves for college, I am trying to figure this one out and have some questions:

1. Any guesses as to what about a liturgical model is appealing to a 17 yo? He's never been exposed to it before. He's really into theology, but singing Bach? Reciting prayers? That is not the same thing. 

2. What other denominations can we try? Google suggested the Anglican Church of North America, and there seem to be some congregations in the area. What else is liturgical, evangelical and conservative but has more than a 10-minute sermon the priest read from his script? Catholicism is not a match for us (or him) theologically. I even looked up the local Greek Orthodox Church, but their services are in Greek, so maybe not that one, either. We are open to a variety of Protestant denominations. I've spent long stretches of my adult life attending Baptist (Southern and otherwise), nondenominational and PCA churches, but what he is looking for is outside my experience.

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I am LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod), and I can try to explain the appeal if you’d like.

Every single liturgical piece in the Divine Service is out of the Bible somewhere, more or less word for word.

Growing up in a church like that, you learn the liturgical songs and sayings by heart from hearing them every week long before you can read.  So you can actively participate starting from age 3 or 4, instead of waiting until you can read fast enough to keep up (often not until age 8 or 9).  And in old age, people like my dad, who is legally blind and can’t read even very large print, can still participate from memory.  This is a big chunk of people, actually.

Also, there is a rhythm to the service.  The entire first half or so is the Service of the Word.  It includes all of the teaching and Bible reading parts of the service.  The sermon is not the only point to this, and it’s supposed to elucidate the readings.  It’s not usually read from script, but preached from an outline, although this varies.  It’s preaching more so than teaching, and teaching occurs at much more length in other settings, like Bible classes.  And the entire second half is the Service of the Sacrament.  It includes all of the introduction, consecration, distribution, and thanksgiving for Holy Communion.  The word ‘Service’ in each of these is rooted in the fact that in church God serves us, as a Host, serving us His Word and Holy Communion.  The church services are not all our doing.  They are God bringing His Gifts to us for our spiritual nourishment and maturing and joy.

I don’t know what service you experienced, but in our most recent hymnal (2006–Lutheran Service Book) the third setting is comprised of the liturgical pieces from the Western Mass.  This is used in Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Anglican, and Lutheran churches all over the world, and has been for hundreds of years—originally in Latin, but now in translation into many languages.  If you learn classical sacred music you will see these very words over and over in the work of all of the great composers because they are so universal.  While this is not critical to the faith, I love the feel that I’m part of the great sweep of the Church through history when we use that service.  

In my particular congregation (and this does vary a lot), we use about 6 hymns each Sunday.  I have favorites and not so favorites, but our pastors are very good hymn pickers and we usually sing at least 2-3 that I absolutely love, and 0-1 that I actively dislike.  The hymns have a lot of content and teach the faith very well.  I find them edifying.  The theology they teach is intricate and is examined from a lot of angles as you sing through them.  Ideally the hymns, Bible lessons, and sermon are all reflective of the season of the church year and fit together well.

WHICH REMIND ME!  The church year is drawn from the Jewish church year originally, and sweeps through the entire story of Jesus’ life every year between December and sometime in the late spring/early summer, with focusses that vary for the rest of the year.  The Bible readings are in a regular sequence, and kind of keep the pastor on track with what is timeless vs. the trendy issue du jour.  I like that a lot.  There is a narrative arc that gives a rhythm to the year but that has a lot of variety to it.

Once someone is familiar with the service it becomes much easier to pray it.  I think that that is the point at which people really enter into it.  I know it’s a bit overwhelming at first.  

Regarding where else to look that is conservative and liturgical, I think the google suggestion is a good one.  But I encourage you to give the church you tried another look.  You might find it growing on you.

Edited by Carol in Cal.
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Most liturgical churches are going to have a shorter sermon than you are used to and the sermon will be less the centerpiece of the service. Whether the preacher uses notes or a full manuscript or memorizes or preaches extemporaneously will depend on the individual, not on the denomination.  

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@Carol in CA said it so very well ❤️ .  I'm a lifelong member of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) and I love the liturgy - "he who sings prays twice".  I'd strongly recommend giving it more than just one Sunday to get to know it before giving up on it - it takes time to get used to new things, and there's a lot going on in the liturgy.  So much of what I love about the liturgy comes from being formed by it over time (I sing the songs from memory during my daily life).

To learn more about what's going on, here's an explanation of the parts of the liturgy from the LCMS website, and an explanation from an LCMS church embedded in the service text (pdf); if you wanted to become more familiar with the music, here's recordings of all the liturgical music at the LCMS website (likely the church you visited used Setting One or Setting Three; if you saved a bulletin it probably says which). 

If you like videos, here's one about the liturgy as spiritual warfare (~4min), and here's one explaining about how to use the hymnal (~11min).  (I find it a bit unnerving sometimes just to be at an unfamiliar church in our denomination - how do they do communion??? and such.  Often the "not knowing how something goes" part of unfamiliarity adds to the discomfort; just learning how something works helps something feel more congenial.)

ETA: My dh pointed me to this nice Liturgy 101 page.  And I found an interesting interview on "Introducing American Evangelicals to the Historic Liturgy" (~60min).

~*~

1 hour ago, plansrme said:

Any guesses as to what about a liturgical model is appealing to a 17 yo? He's never been exposed to it before. He's really into theology, but singing Bach? Reciting prayers? That is not the same thing.

Interestingly enough, there's been a ton of chatter over the past decade about how younger people are being drawn to more traditional forms of worship.  It's beautiful, sublime, rooted in history.  And it's very theologically rich - the service reenacts the Christian life in miniature.  I came to appreciate the liturgy more through my interest in theology. 

Edited by forty-two
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1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I am LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod), and I can try to explain the appeal if you’d like.

Every single liturgical piece in the Divine Service is out of the Bible somewhere, more or less word for word.

Growing up in a church like that, you learn the liturgical songs and sayings by heart from hearing them every week long before you can read.  So you can actively participate starting from age 3 or 4, instead of waiting until you can read fast enough to keep up (often not until age 8 or 9).  And in old age, people like my dad, who is legally blind and can’t read even very large print, can still participate from memory.  This is a big chunk of people, actually.

Also, there is a rhythm to the service.  The entire first half or so is the Service of the Word.  It includes all of the teaching and Bible reading parts of the service.  The sermon is not the only point to this, and it’s supposed to elucidate the readings.  It’s not usually read from script, but preached from an outline, although this varies.  It’s preaching more so than teaching, and teaching occurs at much more length in other settings, like Bible classes.  And the entire second half is the Service of the Sacrament.  It includes all of the introduction, consecration, distribution, and thanksgiving for Holy Communion.  The word ‘Service’ in each of these is rooted in the fact that in church God serves us, as a Host, serving us His Word and Holy Communion.  The church services are not all our doing.  They are God bringing His Gifts to us for our spiritual nourishment and maturing and joy.

I don’t know what service you experienced, but in our most recent hymnal (2006–Lutheran Service Book) the third setting is comprised of the liturgical pieces from the Western Mass.  This is used in Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Anglican, and Lutheran churches all over the world, and has been for hundreds of years—originally in Latin, but now in translation into many languages.  If you learn classical sacred music you will see these very words over and over in the work of all of the great composers because they are so universal.  While this is not critical to the faith, I love the feel that I’m part of the great sweep of the Church through history when we use that service.  

In my particular congregation (and this does vary a lot), we use about 6 hymns each Sunday.  I have favorites and not so favorites, but our pastors are very good hymn pickers and we usually sing at least 2-3 that I absolutely love, and 0-1 that I actively dislike.  The hymns have a lot of content and teach the faith very well.  I find them edifying.  The theology they teach is intricate and is examined from a lot of angles as you sing through them.  Ideally the hymns, Bible lessons, and sermon are all reflective of the season of the church year and fit together well.

WHICH REMIND ME!  The church year is drawn from the Jewish church year originally, and sweeps through the entire story of Jesus’ life every year between December and sometime in the late spring/early summer, with focusses that vary for the rest of the year.  The Bible readings are in a regular sequence, and kind of keep the pastor on track with what is timeless vs. the trendy issue du jour.  I like that a lot.  There is a narrative arc that gives a rhythm to the year but that has a lot of variety to it.

Once someone is familiar with the service it becomes much easier to pray it.  I think that that is the point at which people really enter into it.  I know it’s a bit overwhelming at first.  

Regarding where else to look that is conservative and liturgical, I think the google suggestion is a good one.  But I encourage you to give the church you tried another look.  You might find it growing on you.

This was perfect! Exactly what I needed. Thank you for taking the time to write it all out.

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39 minutes ago, forty-two said:

 

Interestingly enough, there's been a ton of chatter over the past decade about how younger people are being drawn to more traditional forms of worship.  It's beautiful, sublime, rooted in history.  And it's very theologically rich - the service reenacts the Christian life in miniature.  I came to appreciate the liturgy more through my interest in theology. 

This is a good point. But I did look around the other attenders, and besides our exchange student (who was being a tremendously good sport about the whole thing even though he had no idea what was going on) and my son, there was no one within 10 years of his age on either side. Maybe a slightly-larger congregation would be a good compromise.

My husband and I both grew up Catholic. Neither of us has missed any aspect of Catholicism, so this interest has surprised us both.

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57 minutes ago, forty-two said:

@Carol in CA said it so very well ❤️ .  I'm a lifelong member of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) and I love the liturgy - "he who sings prays twice".  I'd strongly recommend giving it more than just one Sunday to get to know it before giving up on it - it takes time to get used to new things, and there's a lot going on in the liturgy.  So much of what I love about the liturgy comes from being formed by it over time (I sing the songs from memory during my daily life).

To learn more about what's going on, here's an explanation of the parts of the liturgy from the LCMS website, and an explanation from an LCMS church embedded in the service text (pdf); if you wanted to become more familiar with the music, here's recordings of all the liturgical music at the LCMS website (likely the church you visited used Setting One or Setting Three; if you saved a bulletin it probably says which). 

If you like videos, here's one about the liturgy as spiritual warfare (~4min), and here's one explaining about how to use the hymnal (~11min).  (I find it a bit unnerving sometimes just to be at an unfamiliar church in our denomination - how do they do communion??? and such.  Often the "not knowing how something goes" part of unfamiliarity adds to the discomfort; just learning how something works helps something feel more congenial.)

ETA: My dh pointed me to this nice Liturgy 101 page.  And I found an interesting interview on "Introducing American Evangelicals to the Historic Liturgy" (~60min).

~*~

Interestingly enough, there's been a ton of chatter over the past decade about how younger people are being drawn to more traditional forms of worship.  It's beautiful, sublime, rooted in history.  And it's very theologically rich - the service reenacts the Christian life in miniature.  I came to appreciate the liturgy more through my interest in theology. 

I will definitely check out these resources. Thank you.

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4 minutes ago, plansrme said:

This is a good point. But I did look around the other attenders, and besides our exchange student (who was being a tremendously good sport about the whole thing even though he had no idea what was going on) and my son, there was no one within 10 years of his age on either side. Maybe a slightly-larger congregation would be a good compromise.

My husband and I both grew up Catholic. Neither of us has missed any aspect of Catholicism, so this interest has surprised us both.

When I was pregnant with DD, I joined a women’s group at our church.  I was 39 and this was the first time that I had ever wanted to do that.  What made me want to was that I was so happy to be pregnant, and literally no one I knew well or was around regularly talked about their children happily.  (I know that this doesn’t mean they didn’t love them, but there was certainly no sense of celebration about it.).  I was in a weaving group, and they talked about how lazy the nurses at the hospitals are now, making new mothers take care of their infants when it should be the nurses’ jobs.  I was working in tech, and my coworkers talked about problems with their kids, and complained that daycare closed at 6PM on the dot, and that their children wanted to play in sports and wanted them to come and watch them.  I was in a book club, and the child free women lauded their lack of being tied down, and the women with children did not have anything joyful to say about motherhood.  My own mother and her friends always complained about being trapped.

So I tried the women’s group in the hopes that it might possibly be somewhere where I could be open about being happy about this.  And it was, and that was awesome!  The next oldest lady in the group was about 8 years old than I, and the next oldest one after that was 15 years older than she was.  I didn’t care.  We had something that was very important to me in common, and that made it a place where I truly belonged.  Sometimes it’s like that.  🙂

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