News: 97 fatalities after a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Florida (Update on settlement)

[vonfirmath]

11 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

It was in Page 7 & 8 https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-source/default-document-library/town-clerk-documents/champlain-towers-south-public-records/8777-collins-ave---structural-field-survey-report.pdf?sfvrsn=882a1194_2

p7&8 seems to say maintenance was previously done, but shoddily. But I'm not seeing anything here that says this is annual maintenance?

 

[lewelma]

In page 7 and 8: "epoxy injections and patch repairs." We don't do it this way. We remove the damaged concrete completely and reconcrete it. I know what they are talking about with epoxy injections and we were advised that this won't stop the concrete cancer for long. We also wrap our repairs in a special dacron wrap if they are in pillars, which holds the entire structure together. If you just inject with epoxy, it kind of covers the crack and sort of holds it together, but it is definitely not as good as taking out the damaged concrete and then wrapping the structure before painting and sealing it. Our way is more expensive because of the required labour -- sounds like they were cost cutting for many decades. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by lewelma

[lewelma]

I will also add that the technology has improved over time, so we have removed previous patches that still seem to be 'holding' and replaced them with more modern techniques. 

[Arcadia]

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/champlain-towers-south-condo-letter/b2a6e0b0ac7cf1ec/full.pdf 

project estimate, hallway estimate, engineer’s contracted fees, and the January 2021 balance sheet are on page 8 to 16 of 16.

“SO FAR:
1. The 40-year building inspection is required by law and covers life/safety issues such as structural and electrical. An engineer, Frank Morabito, was hired in 2018 to do an inspection of the building and provide an initial estimate of what would be required in terms of the 40-year inspection, which comes due later this year. Among other things, that estimate indicated that the concrete damage observed would begin to multiply exponentially over the years, and indeed the observable damage such as in the garage has gotten significantly worse since the initial inspection. When you can visually see the concrete spalling (cracking), that means that the rebar holding it together is rusting and deteriorating beneath the surface.
Please note that the original scope of work in the 2018 report has expanded. The concrete deterioration is accelerating. The roof situation got much worse, so extensive roof repairs had to be incorporated. Other previously identified projects have been rolled under the main project. New problems have been identified. Also, costs go up every year. This is how we have gone from the estimated $9,128,433.60 cited in Frank Morabito’s 2018 report, to the much larger figure we have today.

2. A committee was formed to evaluate possible Supervising Engineers to oversee this work. That committee recommended Frank Morabito as the Engineer. Morabito was selected as our Engineer by the Board in 2019.

3. A Manager with 40-year experience and an engineering background was hired (Scott Stewart).
The above work was accomplished over a 2-year period through several different Boards. The process has continued with the current Board:

4. Contracted Morabito as the Supervising Engineer. He identified additional professionals such as landscape architect, architect, and MEPF (mechanical/electrical/plumbing/fire) engineer. Those professionals are identified by name in his contract, and their professional fees are accounted through Morabito. We are currently working with a different MEPF engineer than originally identified.

5. Morabito carried out a much more detailed survey of the property. He recommended the work proceed in stages:

a. An initial exploration of the concrete and driveway soffit. This was bid out and done last year. In addition, all balconies were checked, and loose stucco and concrete knocked off the building wherever observed, for safety reasons. It was also found that a firewall is missing between the lobby and front driveway, which must be put in. This firewall is an example of a new issue not identified in the original, more general 40-year assessment in 2018.

b. Roof repair and OSHA roof anchor placement (these are tiebacks and safety line points for people on the scaffolding and are required). This work will begin in the next few weeks. It includes other previously identified and necessary work such as AC disconnects, electrical on the roof, and exhaust fans. The anchors will remain in place permanently and can be used by window washers or with future scaffolding if we do other projects.
A moisture survey was done to evaluate the roof last year, showing the need for extensive repairs. For most efficient project management and to contain certain costs (value engineering), the roof was rolled under Morabito’s supervision. The roof is part of the 40-year inspection.

c. The main project involving concrete and waterproofing and all related projects. Phase 2c is by far the largest phase. The bid package is being worked on now. We expect to have a Board meeting to discuss various design and code issues on April 20, 2020. Morabito is expected to present the Phase 2c bid package to the Board at a meeting on April 22, 2021. We hope to conclude bidding and open bids at a meeting on June 8, 2021.

6. The Board identified a lender to accomplish this multi-year project. The loan has been through underwriting, the paperwork is in process and according to the Commitment Letter from Valley, must close by April 25. This is the second lender we have worked with.
(There was a previous deal discussed with Banco Popular for a number of months, and a
Special Assessment conversation to match, but that deal did not go through.)

7. We have now arrived at the Special Assessment to pay for the work and the loan from Valley.”
 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Arcadia
formatting messed up

[lewelma]

"concrete deterioration is accelerating" -- This is the problem with concrete cancer. You MUST remediate it early because it spread rapidly as I described above. The problem is that rusting rebar *expands* which causes more cracking which causes more water to get in and rust more rebar.

The costs balloon if you delay. That and the structural integrity of the structure fails exponentially. It is NOT a linear process. That is why they used the word 'accelerating.'

 

[lewelma]

"The main project involving concrete and waterproofing and all related projects. Phase 2c is by far the largest phase. "  --- This should not be the case if they had done this work on an annual basis.  This is definitely 'a stitch in time saves 9' situation. Everyone in my building knows about concrete cancer, and we are always on the look out for it.  If we see even a tiny area, we get someone in right away because the cost is small and will only grow. Delay is EXPENSIVE, especially with concrete cancer.

Edited June 29, 2021 by lewelma

[Arcadia]

6 minutes ago, lewelma said:

"The main project involving concrete and waterproofing and all related projects. Phase 2c is by far the largest phase. "  --- This should not be the case if they had done this work on an annual basis.  This is definitely 'a stitch in time saves 9' situation.  The concrete deterioration was clearly growing exponentially, not linearly.

I also don't know why roof comes before structural, though Phase 2A probably cost a lot less than Phase 2C.

Page 14

"Phase IIA Building Roof Replacement, Selective Demolition,& Initial Structural Repairs

Phase IIB OSHA Fall Protection Systems

Phase IIC Preparation of Building,Plaza,Level 1 Windows & Garage Repair Documents"

[Amy in NH]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

I also don't know why roof comes before structural, though Phase 2A probably cost a lot less than Phase 2C.

Page 14

"Phase IIA Building Roof Replacement, Selective Demolition,& Initial Structural Repairs

Phase IIB OSHA Fall Protection Systems

Phase IIC Preparation of Building,Plaza,Level 1 Windows & Garage Repair Documents"

From a project management/subcontracting perspective, it makes sense to do all of the concrete work at once - have the concrete sub scheduled for a block of time.  That would require the scaffolding hard-points on the roof to be ready.  Also, it wouldn't make sense to do the concrete work on the building exterior if the water is getting into the walls through cracks in the roof - you'd fix the walls only to have the work ruined by further water infiltration from the roof.

[Arcadia]

1 minute ago, Amy in NH said:

From a project management/subcontracting perspective, it makes sense to do all of the concrete work at once - have the concrete sub scheduled for a block of time.  That would require the scaffolding hard-points on the roof to be ready.  Also, it wouldn't make sense to do the concrete work on the building exterior if the water is getting into the walls through cracks in the roof - you'd fix the walls only to have the work ruined by further water infiltration from the roof.

I was thinking in terms of garage before roof, basically repair and strengthen the foundations before the roof. Or do concurrently. 

[Arcadia]

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/departments-services/town-clerk/champlain-towers-public-records-documents
“CHAMPLAIN TOWERS PUBLIC RECORDS DOCUMENTS

Documents will be uploaded as they become available. 

• Champlain Towers South Board Meeting November 15, 2018.pdf
• 2018-2019 Building Official Emails Regarding Champlain Tower South.pdf
• 2018-11-16 Email Regarding Champlain Tower South Association Meeting.pdf
• Email Related 2018 Structural Field Survey Report.pdf
• Email Related to 2018 Structural Field Survey Report.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE-1979 PLANS.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVENUE - Preliminary Review Plans for 40 Year Re-certification.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE - Structural Field Survey Report.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE-PERMIT # 2021-211.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE - Electrical and mechanical systems evaluation.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE - CODE COMPLIANCE CASES.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE - Unverified Inspection Report.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE-ROOF AND FACADE MAINTENANCE ANCHOR SYSTEM.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE-PERMIT # 2021-462.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE - CODE COMPLIANCE LETTERS ISSUED.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE-PERMIT # 2021-466 PERMITS.pdf
• 8777 COLLINS AVE-PERMIT # 2021-466 PLANS“

[Lawyer&Mom]

Alas, this deferred maintenance is what we are doing with our over 40 year old interstate system too. 

[Arcadia]

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-06-29-21/index.html

“8:11 p.m. ET, June 29, 2021

Death toll rises to 12 in Surfside building collapse 

The death toll for the Surfside building collapse rose to 12, Miami-Dade County Mayor Daniella Levine Cava said Tuesday.

The total number of people unaccounted for is now 149 and the number of people accounted for is 125, Levine Cava said during the latest update on search and rescue efforts. 

The mayor also said that the audit of those unaccounted for remains a tedious effort due to duplication of information.

"Over the past few days, we have been conducting an audit of our list of missing persons and we have been working to verify and remove duplicates wherever possible," she said. "I hope you can understand, we're getting information from lots of different sources and often not complete so it is very important that we go through to cull the list."”

[Lady Florida.]

6 hours ago, lewelma said:

"concrete deterioration is accelerating" -- This is the problem with concrete cancer. You MUST remediate it early because it spread rapidly as I described above. The problem is that rusting rebar *expands* which causes more cracking which causes more water to get in and rust more rebar.

 

This is especially true in an area with salt air and salt water as is the case in Surfside or any beach/barrier island town. The salt rusts that rebar pretty quickly and pretty significantly.

[Stacia]

I thought this was a good article for explaining some of the search process:

What Rescue Crews Are Doing in Miami Right Now

https://slate.com/business/2021/06/miami-surfside-condo-collapse-emergency-manager.html

 

[BeachGal]

A tik tok video of the parking ramp taken shortly before collapse shows a broken overhead water main and, I think, some debris that might be part of a slab.

I don’t have the tik tok app. Can anyone tell what time the video was taken?

Video here.

[SeaConquest]

On 6/29/2021 at 1:12 PM, lewelma said:

I will also add that the technology has improved over time, so we have removed previous patches that still seem to be 'holding' and replaced them with more modern techniques. 

Seems like a metaphor for just about everything these days in the US. Ignore problems for as long as possible. Patch the cracks, so we can pretend the problems don't exist. Point fingers after the inevitable tragedy occurs instead of making a systemic overhaul that would prevent future tragedies. Rinse and repeat. 

NZ seems to actually address their problems. Here, it will be a miracle if the infrastructure bill passes (even though basically everyone agrees that our infrastructure is in shambles) because we love to cut off our nose to spite our face.

  

Edited June 30, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Scarlett]

Did anyone read the account of a woman named Iliana Monteagudo?  She is  my hero.  She is 64 years old and woke up to weird noises and then saw a crack snaking down her wall.  She ran, barefoot from her 6th floor condo and escaped with, according to her,  3 seconds to spare.  

Wow.  Just wow.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

28 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Seems like a metaphor from just about everything these days in the US. Ignore problems for as long as possible. Patch the cracks, so we can pretend the problems don't exist. Point fingers after the inevitable tragedy occurs instead of making systemic overhaul that would prevent future tragedies. Rinse and repeat. 

NZ seems to actually address their problems. Here, it will be a miracle if the infrastructure bill passes (even though basically every agrees that our infrastructure is in shambles) because we love to cut off our nose to spite our face.

  

My dh works for a structural engineering company and he said so many of these buildings just need to come down instead of expensive patch jobs.  

 

[BeachGal]

6 hours ago, BeachGal said:

A tik tok video of the parking ramp taken shortly before collapse shows a broken overhead water main and, I think, some debris that might be part of a slab.

I don’t have the tik tok app. Can anyone tell what time the video was taken?

Video here.

Quoting myself here. Vacationer swimming in neighboring pool who heard loud noise and investigated took the Tik Tok video at 1:18 am. Her video is important because it shows columns, slab and debris just before the first part of the middle tower fell. Wow.

[Scarlett]

27 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Quoting myself here. Vacationer swimming in neighboring pool who heard loud noise and investigated took the Tik Tok video at 1:18 am. Her video is important because it shows columns, slab and debris just before the first part of the middle tower fell. Wow.

Was she injured?

 

[Arcadia]

😞 

News link https://www.cbsnews.com/video/married-couple-who-died-in-surfside-condo-collapse-were-found-together-in-bed-family-says/

YouTube link (3:56 mins)

 

“Married couple who died in Surfside condo collapse were found together in bed, family says

When Sergio Lozano left his parents' apartment Wednesday night after dinner, he did not know it was the last time he'd see them. Hours later, the Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, would collapse, taking Gladys and Antonio Lozano's lives. In an interview with CBS News, Sergio Lozano, who lives in a building across from his parents', recounts the moment he went out on his balcony and realized their building was gone.”

[BeachGal]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Was she injured?

 

Thankfully neither she nor her husband were hurt. They just happened to be swimming in the neighboring pool when they heard what was likely one of the initial structural failures. They were curious and set off to investigate and shortly after, she made the video of the collapse she saw through the Champlain Towers parking ramp.
 

Her video is providing important clues regarding what exactly occurred and is being scrutinized carefully. 

[TravelingChris]

It is up to 18 dead now.

[Selkie]

A member of an online group that I’m in lived in the building and is missing. She had just recovered from major surgery, and then this happened. 😞 So terribly sad.

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, BeachGal said:

Quoting myself here. Vacationer swimming in neighboring pool who heard loud noise and investigated took the Tik Tok video at 1:18 am. Her video is important because it shows columns, slab and debris just before the first part of the middle tower fell. Wow.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252475248.html
“In her comments on TikTok, Sarmiento said the video was taken at 1:18 a.m. on June 24. 

The building collapsed at 1:25 a.m., she said. Sarmiento didn’t immediately respond to the Herald’s request for comment.

The part of the parking garage shown in Sarmiento’s video was identified in 2018 by engineer Frank Morabito as having major damage to the concrete slab above. The damage, he wrote, was caused by a design error that caused the waterproofing on the pool deck to fail, allowing water to seep into the concrete and corrode the internal rebar.

Other eyewitnesses also described seeing the pool deck fall into the garage below in the same general area where the rubble can be seen in Sarmiento’s video.”

[Arcadia]

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252466938.html

“Death toll rises to 18 in Surfside collapse. Two young sisters among those found.

8:00 p.m.: Miami-Dade County Mayor Daniella Levine Cava said two more bodies were pulled from the rubble in her evening conference.

Both of the bodies found from the partially collapsed Champlain Towers South were children. As of now, the death toll stands at 18 with 145 people unaccounted for and 139 accounted for”

[Arcadia]

@Lady Florida.@TravelingChris

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/06/30/us/miami-condo-building-collapse-updates#the-city-of-doral-said-it-is-reviewing-all-of-the-work-of-a-former-surfside-building-official

”

The city of Doral said it is reviewing all of the work of a former Surfside building official.

Doral, the Florida city where a former Surfside building official most recently worked, is now reviewing all of the official’s work out of “an abundance of caution,” a spokesman for the city said Wednesday.

Ross Prieto, the former chief building official at Surfside, had received a critical engineering report about the Champlain Towers South nearly three years before the condo building collapsed. Records show that he attended a condo association meeting at the time, and said the building looked fine.

Since May, Mr. Prieto has worked as the interim building official in the nearby city of Doral. He was employed by a contractor which billed the city $120 an hour for Mr. Prieto’s services.

In his seven weeks working for the city, Mr. Prieto reviewed eight construction projects, which are now under review, said Rey Valdes, a spokesman for the city.

“In an abundance of caution, we are going to review everything he did,” Mr. Valdes said. “We don’t suspect he did anything wrong, nevertheless, given the circumstances we are dealing with, we are going to review everything he did to make sure it’s in line with state law and municipal code.”

Mr. Prieto has been on leave since Monday. He has not responded to requests for comment.“

[Corraleno]

I saw an interview with a friend of the woman who lived in the apartment with the white bunkbeds, and she said that the apartment came fully furnished but her friend lived alone. Sadly the friend has not been found, but I thought people who, like me, have been haunted by that photo, might find some comfort in knowing that no children were sleeping there.

[mom2scouts]

I just saw pictures of what the concrete parking garage looked like in 2018 and gasped. I have some background in construction and concrete, but you don't need any experience to see there were serious structural problems. With a few more years of deterioration, I can't even imagine how bad it was when it collapsed. 

[Arcadia]

7 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

Every image of that site, including the bunk beds, are haunting.

@Corraleno The penthouse tenant is another sad story 😞

https://apnews.com/article/remembering-dead-and-missing-surfside-condo-collapse-0c1be1e82c4bc6010515199513fc5a93 (article descibes ten persons/families)

"Among the missing was Linda March, who eagerly traded a cramped New York apartment for fresh air and ocean views after surviving a COVID-19 infection. She even bought a bright pink bicycle to cruise around Miami with, best friend Rochelle Laufer said.

March rented Penthouse 4, and was using the second bedroom of the furnished apartment as her office, Laufer told The Associated Press on Sunday.

...

Florida was a new start for the 58-year-old attorney. In the past decade, she’d lost her sister and mother to cancer, her father died a few years later and she and her husband divorced. She had no children.

“She would say to me, ‘I’m all alone. I don’t have family,’ and I would say, ‘You’re my sister, you don’t have to be born sisters. And I said you always have me,’” Laufer recounted through tears.

Laufer said March loved the ocean views but hated the incessant noise from nearby construction and had decided to break her lease. “She was looking for another apartment when this happened,” Laufer said sadly."

 

[Arcadia]

edited: misunderstood.

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Arcadia

[mom2scouts]

1 minute ago, Arcadia said:

two days before, photos posted upthread https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/710666-news-145-people-unaccounted-for-18-fatalities-after-a-building-partially-collapsed-in-surfside-florida-updated-donation-info/?do=findComment&comment=9002593

This one is from the same article linked in that post. The contractor indicated where he saw serious corrosion https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252421658.html

 

I did see the pool room photos and those beams are in bad condition. The one that really concerned me was the condition of the parking garage slabs from three years ago. The rebar was even exposed on the floor slabs!  I'm not sure I would be willing to enter a building in that condition.

[Arcadia]

8 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

I did see the pool room photos and those beams are in bad condition. The one that really concerned me was the condition of the parking garage slabs from three years ago. The rebar was even exposed on the floor slabs!  I'm not sure I would be willing to enter a building in that condition.

Misunderstood. Didn't understand why none of the residents made a hue and cry over those exposed rebars, or maybe the management agreed to delay until Phase 2C.

[Lanny]

The Search and Rescue has stopped, at least temporarily, because they are afraid the remaining part of the apartment building that collapsed, is also going to collapse. It is shifting and they need to protect the Rescue workers. 

Second story down on this URL:

https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/live-updates-surfside-collapse-death-toll-rises-to-18-relief-efforts-enter-8th-day

[Ausmumof3]

Is there any chance of survivors at this point?  I must admit I’ve been avoiding this story a bit because I can’t deal with it emotionally. 
 

[Arcadia]

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-06-30-21/h_b6d81cbe1f1752b2c1ec202b423e6320 (There is a video of the interview in link)
“8:19 a.m. ET, June 30, 2021

Mother and daughter said they saw garage collapse before running from Surfside condo

From CNN’s Rebekah Riess

Sara Nir and her daughter Chani Nir, who escaped Champlain Towers moments before the condo collapsed last week, told CNN's John Berman on Tuesday night that they initially thought neighbors were doing construction.

Nir said she had just returned home to her two children around 12:30 a.m. ET when she started hearing “knocking sounds.” 

As sounds became increasingly louder, Nir said she started to believe neighbors were doing “major construction,” and she went to speak to the building’s security guard about the early morning disturbance. 

“I said, 'do you hear the sound?' It doesn't make sense in the middle of the night, early morning, people doing construction,” Nir told CNN. 

Nir said as she was speaking to the guard, she heard a big boom and saw the garage had collapsed. At this point, Nir said her son and daughter were standing outside of their apartment and she told them to run, believing an earthquake was taking place.

“In the moment, you're just, you’re just shocked, you’re like, what's going on? Like, things are just collapsing, but you don't know, is the whole building about to collapse? You just you don't know what's going on,” daughter Chani Nir said.

“I said it's not construction, it's an earthquake, and while I was running, I told the security guy [to] call the police, pull the alarm so people will be aware about this,” Sara Nir said.

“We ran out of the building, and I told my kids, run as fast as you can, crossing Collins. We just crossed Collins. God was waiting for us to leave the building. And then another big boom. Then we didn't see anything. It was suddenly white after the big boom and with white clouds all over,” Nir told CNN.

Nir said she and her children ran three or four blocks away from the building before needing to stop to catch their breath.”

[TexasProud]

11 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Misunderstood. Didn't understand why none of the residents made a hue and cry over those exposed rebars, or maybe the management agreed to delay until Phase 2C.

It seems like there is going to need to be a change in the way things are done in condos. I read a story this morning that a lot of the board resigned because they couldn't get the residents to agree to pay to fix everything. It was going to be so expensive. I doubt the residents could have afforded the major repair. If the boards cannot fix things until they have agreement from the residents, it feels like that would be a major problem to getting things done.

[Arcadia]

Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio, Indiana sending task forces to help.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-06-30-21/index.html 

”15 hr 11 min ago

Teams from several states activated to assist in search efforts 

From CNN’s Rebekah Riess

Several states have activated their task force teams to assist with search efforts in Surfside, Florida.

Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Wolf tweeted that 70 members of the state's task force 1 will leave tonight to assist with search and rescue efforts at the site of last week’s deadly building collapse.

“It will be dangerous work. But the ability to bring closure to families and friends of the victims of this collapse is a tremendous blessing,” Wolf said. “Thank you to the men and women of PA-TF1.”

Earlier in the day, New Jersey Gov. Phil Murphy announced that the state's task force 1 would also be deploying to Miami tomorrow morning.

Additionally, Ohio Task Force 1 announced it deployed Wednesday evening with approximately 80 members and several canine search teams, who will be assisting in the search efforts. 

Indiana Task Force 1 has also been activated by the Federal Emergency Management Agency to respond with an 80-person search and rescue team, according to the task force.”

[Arcadia]

9 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

It seems like there is going to need to be a change in the way things are done in condos. I read a story this morning that a lot of the board resigned because they couldn't get the residents to agree to pay to fix everything. It was going to be so expensive. I doubt the residents could have afforded the major repair. If the boards cannot fix things until they have agreement from the residents, it feels like that would be a major problem to getting things done.

WaPo https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/majority-of-florida-condo-board-quit-in-2019-as-squabbling-residents-dragged-out-plans-for-repairs/2021/06/30/43592282-d98e-11eb-ae62-2d07d7df83bd_story.html

“The president of the board of the Florida condominium that collapsed last week resigned in 2019, partly in frustration over what she saw as the sluggish response to an engineer’s report that identified major structural damage the previous year.

Anette Goldstein was among five members of the seven-member board to resign in two weeks that fall, according to minutes from an Oct. 3 meeting, at a time when the condo association in Surfside was consumed by contentious debate about the multimillion-dollar repairs.

“We work for months to go in one direction and at the very last minute objections are raised that should have been discussed and resolved right in the beginning,” Goldstein wrote in a September 2019 resignation letter. “This pattern has repeated itself over and over, ego battles, undermining the roles of fellow board members, circulation of gossip and mistruths. I am not presenting a very pretty picture of the functioning of our board and many before us, but it describes a board that works very hard but cannot for the reasons above accomplish the goals we set out to accomplish.”

Debate over the cost and scope of the work, along with turnover on the volunteer board, dragged out preparations for the repairs for three years, according to previously unpublished correspondence, condo board minutes and other records kept by the homeowners association.

Concrete restoration work had not yet begun when the building partially collapsed June 24. Identifying the cause of the catastrophe is expected to take many months, and it is not clear whether the problems identified in 2018 played a role. At least 18 people were killed in the catastrophe, and 145 remain missing.

Despite increasingly dire warnings from the board, many condo owners balked at paying for the extensive improvements, which ballooned in price from about $9 million to more than $15 million over the past three years as the building continued to deteriorate, records show.

“The question is, ‘Why did it take three years to get this point?’ ” Max Friedman, a former board member who left the board before the 2018 report, said in an interview with The Washington Post. “It took a lot of time to get the ball rolling, and of course there was sticker shock. Nobody truly believed the building was in imminent danger.”

Goldstein and the other board members who resigned did not return messages seeking comment. The precise reasons for the resignations of the other four members are not clear in the documents examined by The Post.Goldstein and some of the others later returned to the board, one just three weeks after stepping down, documents indicate“

Edited July 1, 2021 by Arcadia

[TexasProud]

Thank you @Arcadia  Yes, the way those boards are set up just don't work.  I told my husband I am so glad we do not own any condos. 

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, the way those boards are set up just don't work.  I told my husband I am so glad we do not own any condos. 

It’s usually a thankless job. While some of the board members in my condo are board members because of ego and social networking issues, they are also concerned about their home property value. Ever since our board meetings are hosted on Zoom due to shelter in place, more residents could attend and voice concerns. Before COVID started, meetings were in the clubhouse and people with noisy kids or people still in office could not attend. Once shelter in place started in March 2020, paying for Zoom can be justified. Our meetings last more than 40 mins and we have about 270 units so can’t use the free Zoom plan. 
 

There would always be residents who think that whatever the board approved in board meetings is for their own benefits.  We do get to vote on issues like repairs and lawsuits. For example, we had popping tiles frequently in our visitor parking and the board suggested replacing with concrete. The replacement looks slightly less aesthetic but we don’t have to deal with repairing popping tiles anymore. It took months to decide on which replacement option is most cost effective and yet aesthetic.  

[Corraleno]

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-ne-images-condominiums-structures-unsafe-20210701-gispymi7ofeo5mwm6kttpq7t74-story.html

72 units in a Kissimmee condo complex deemed unsafe after inspection; residents must relocate and if they enter the building it will be "at their own risk." 

I think there is going to be a sudden spate of inspections ordered by condo boards and management companies wanting to cover their butts and avoid liability.

[Arcadia]

4 hours ago, Lanny said:

The Search and Rescue has stopped, at least temporarily, because they are afraid the remaining part of the apartment building that collapsed, is also going to collapse. It is shifting and they need to protect the Rescue workers. 

Second story down on this URL:

https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/live-updates-surfside-collapse-death-toll-rises-to-18-relief-efforts-enter-8th-day

It is very dangerous work and 12 hr shifts are grueling. Luckily task forces from four states are being dispatched there. 

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-07-01-21/h_ea9a67c1f60bbd915df8168522489956
“1 hr 12 min ago

Official: Search efforts paused after 3 devices monitoring cracks went off, signaling possible expansion

From CNN’s Gregory Lemos

The Miami- Dade County fire chief  said search and rescue operations were pulled back from the Champlain Towers South collapse site early Thursday morning after three devices monitoring cracks in the structure went off.

Chief Alan Cominsky told reporters during a news conference the alarms “signaled there was some expansion or whichever” and added there was also a column that shifted six to 12 inches.

Cominsky said first-responders were immediately removed.

Search and rescue personnel have “been working in a very, very, unsafe environment,” he said, adding they have not been able to identify one single trigger event ahead of the catastrophic collapse in Surfside, Florida.”

[Not_a_Number]

51 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

It seems like there is going to need to be a change in the way things are done in condos. I read a story this morning that a lot of the board resigned because they couldn't get the residents to agree to pay to fix everything. It was going to be so expensive. I doubt the residents could have afforded the major repair. If the boards cannot fix things until they have agreement from the residents, it feels like that would be a major problem to getting things done.

It's not "how things are done in condos" that's the problem. It's how things are done in condos in places where people don't seem to know how to run condos. 

As I said, when we were looking at Austin condos, the HOA fees were minuscule. When we look at condos in NYC, that is NOT the case. The point is that you want to collect money BEFORE bad stuff happens instead of dealing with it via assessment. If you deal with it via assessment, then you need to get everyone to agree. If you have money in the bank, then you do not and you deal with problems when they start, decreasing costs. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[melmichigan]

39 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's not "how things are done in condos" that's the problem. It's how things are done in condos in places where people don't seem to know how to run condos. 

As I said, when we were looking at Austin condos, the HOA fees were minuscule. When we look at condos in NYC, that is NOT the case. The point is that you want to collect money BEFORE bad stuff happens instead of dealing with it via assessment. If you deal with it via assessment, then you need to get everyone to agree. If you have money in the bank, then you do not and you deal with problems when they start, decreasing costs. 

This is the impression I got when I saw the video of the North tower and listened to the board members talk about proactive maintenance in that building.  They took all the tiles down from all the balconies years ago, they corrected the waterproofing issues with the pool deck, they have made sure there is no water in the garage, they were proactive with waterproofing on the roof.  It sounds/looks like night and day when you look at what they have done with what is essentially the same building.

Edited July 1, 2021 by melmichigan

[Lanny]

We are in a rural condo subdivision but not in an apartment building condo. Individual houses on single family lots in Colombia.  Our HOA is rather conservative and we are in a much better financial position than many other nearby HOAs.  I always vote for raising the monthly fee to more than the bare minimum, so that if something comes up, we have the money in the bank. On 1 or 2 occasions that I can remember (we bought this lot in 2003 and moved in during 2004) our HOA has loaned $ to nearby HOAs when they experienced an emergency and didn't have the $ to pay for repairs.  I'm happy that we are in the position to loan them the money and not be in the position where we need to borrow $ to pay for emergency repairs.

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Seasider too said:

Yes. Honestly if I were a resident of an older complex, I would be demanding such an inspection. Or you know what? Maybe just try to relocate. I think there’s going to be a flooded real estate market for such properties. It’ll likely be a losing situation all around. 
 

Apartment, hotel and office building inspections should probably follow.  

 

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's not "how things are done in condos" that's the problem. It's how things are done in condos in places where people don't seem to know how to run condos. 

As I said, when we were looking at Austin condos, the HOA fees were minuscule. When we look at condos in NYC, that is NOT the case. The point is that you want to collect money BEFORE bad stuff happens instead of dealing with it via assessment. If you deal with it via assessment, then you need to get everyone to agree. If you have money in the bank, then you do not and you deal with problems when they start, decreasing costs. 

What residents can afford to pay in HOA fees also comes in. We currently pay $400 per month. We saw some condos listed in very convenient locations but has HOA fees > $600. My upstairs neighbor is a retiree. We are in our late 40s so we don't want to buy anywhere with high HOA fees that would be difficult to pay when retired, assuming that HOA fees do rise with annual inflation.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Arcadia
autocorrect

[lewelma]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

The point is that you want to collect money BEFORE bad stuff happens instead of dealing with it via assessment. If you deal with it via assessment, then you need to get everyone to agree. If you have money in the bank, then you do not and you deal with problems when they start, decreasing costs. 

Yup. That is exactly what I have been saying upthread. Our Body Corp fees include 5K per year for the long term maintenance fund which is a 30 year plan. Their 83K per apartment in one year is because they had not been putting 5K in per year per apartment like we do, and also because the costs skyrocketed as they delayed because the money was not in the bank already. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by lewelma

[Arcadia]

@Lanny further complications, impending tropical storm Elsa

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/07/01/mdfr-chief-explains-why-search-operation-in-surfside-came-to-a-halt/

“Miami-Dade Fire Rescue Chief Alan Cominsky told reporters Thursday morning there were additional concerns for building stability. The concrete slabs of the southern part of the 12-story building that didn’t collapse were moving.
Comisky said there was also up to a foot of movement in a large hanging column. The shifts threatened support columns in the underground parking garage. The more than 300 people who have been working on the operation were at risk.

The work with heavy equipment also came to a halt. A team of structural engineers was assessing the situation to make recommendations. And with Tropical Storm Elena approaching the Caribbean and potentially affecting Florida, the safety plans in Surfside were quickly changing.“

Edited July 1, 2021 by Arcadia

[lewelma]

It would probably be a good idea at this point to quit the search and recovery (it has been 7 days), and do a controlled demolition of the remaining part of the building so it falls well. If there are people still doing search/ recovery, there is definitely risk that they will be buried when the building falls at an unknown time.