Nm

[Drama Llama]

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[Tanaqui]

This is a question for the Jewish friend or relation you're entertaining, because different people have different standards, ranging from "I don't trust outside kitchens" to "Whatever, lol, if I'm not at home who cares?" with all sorts of middle places in between (as in "I'll eat foods that could be kosher and not stress about it, but ixnay on the bacon cheeseburgers" or "Okay, I do keep very strict kosher except at Aunt Sue's house because she raised me and I'm not telling her that her food isn't good enough" and so on.)

However, in my experience, if you're only serving pareve foods, and using separate dedicated "Kosher cooking" dishes and utensils, it's the rare guest who will find that not sufficient.

[Drama Llama]

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[JennyD]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

This is a question for the Jewish friend or relation you're entertaining,

Yes.  Tanaqui is exactly right that standards vary tremendously.  It really is perfectly normal to just call and ask someone's parameters. 

59 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

It seems to work better if I say "what about this"?  

it will be much easier if you don't actually cook or heat anything up.  I'd propose a cold pareve meal (e.g., sandwiches and/or salads) served on paper plates and prepared with a dedicated knife and cutting board.    

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by JennyD

[Drama Llama]

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[Farrar]

The folks I know would just want things to be vegan. There are lots of good ways to cook vegan. I'd just do that, honestly.

[lauraw4321]

4 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

If I wanted to cook a meal, not just serve something I bought at the kosher store, and have it be kosher, what would I need to do?  Assume, I'm willing to buy some things (e.g. a separate cutting board, knife, and a few pans and dishes), and I'm only serving parve foods. 

@YaelAldrich

I would find the most orthodox kosher restaurant, order from them and have them deliver it. That is actually an important part, depending on his level of orthodoxy. 

[Farrar]

My friend who keeps kosher says that the majority of kosher restaurants are terrible. I'm sure that varies a lot by area, of course. Given that this person said making vegan food is fine... I think you have your answer if you want to cook a meal.

[Drama Llama]

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[lauraw4321]

16 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

This is someone I'd cook for regularly, and I'm not really sure that's in my budget.

I'm also not sure what the bolded part is referring to.

Sorry to be unclear. I knew someone who worked at a NY law firm with Orthodox Jews. She ordered food, had it delivered and then set it out, took the lids off so it would be ready to eat. By taking the lids off she made it not kosher by their standards so none of the Jewish lawyers were able to eat. 

[Spryte]

Definitely ask lots of questions.  And then more questions. There are so many levels.  My parents keep two kitchens, one kosher, one not, so my orthodox relatives can eat there.  The one time, 17 years ago, we attempted at my house, my sister brought food and made a tinfoil tent to put in the oven.  That would no longer work for her family, they evolved, and their needs changed soon after. So it really varies, and sometimes families themselves change.

[Carrie12345]

10 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I have asked, but it's just hard.  He originally told me that anything vegan is fine, and then later said that fish is fine, but my sense is that he's eating things at my house to be polite, that he might rather not.  

I don't mind a challenge.

Agreeing there’s a wide spectrum. I threw a Baby’s 1st Birthday party for my “baby” whose paternal side is all Jewish, of ALL different types, from the bacon lovers to those who brought their own food. They all have their own lines (or none, lol.)

But the bottom line (IM very strong O), is that it is not your job to second guess what someone has told you. A follow up question may be okay, but you’ve got to go with what they’re comfortable telling you, not what you think they’re holding back.

[MEmama]

Idk anything about kosher food, but every.single time I see the title of this thread I read it as Can I Make Lobster in My Non Kosher Kitchen and every.single time I’m momentarily confused. Since the words kosher and lobster don’t even look similar, I’m hoping this isn’t a sign of mental decline on my part. Lol

Carry on with your cookery! 🙂 

[Beth S]

I'm not Jewish, but worked in a Jewish nursing home (40 years ago)!
My understanding was that they did not mix meat and dairy.
We had two completely duplicate kitchen setups.

[Drama Llama]

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[YaelAldrich]

On 6/18/2021 at 9:17 PM, lauraw4321 said:

Sorry to be unclear. I knew someone who worked at a NY law firm with Orthodox Jews. She ordered food, had it delivered and then set it out, took the lids off so it would be ready to eat. By taking the lids off she made it not kosher by their standards so none of the Jewish lawyers were able to eat. 

This is the idea that the kosher food needed to be under constant supervision from the production of the raw ingredients (especially meat, milk and derivatives, and wine/grape juice) until serving. That is why the flight attendants on plants are instructed to keep the plastic wrap and aluminum foil throughout heating AND serving even though they worry if it will melt in the reheating oven. When you're friend ripped the tape from the kosher supervisor at the restaurant, they broke that level of supervision needed.  

[YaelAldrich]

On 6/18/2021 at 4:18 PM, BaseballandHockey said:

If I wanted to cook a meal, not just serve something I bought at the kosher store, and have it be kosher, what would I need to do?  Assume, I'm willing to buy some things (e.g. a separate cutting board, knife, and a few pans and dishes), and I'm only serving parve foods. 

@YaelAldrich

You are a sweet and thoughtful person to do this for the kosher keeping Jew. If it were me, I'd ask you to get a fillet of salmon or other fish I request (because it must have fins and scales) bake in an parchment paper covered new aluminum pan, spiced with salt and pepper (maybe other stuff), bake a potato with a double layer of aluminum foil. Buy new dishes and cutlery. Get kosher butter and sour cream.  Get baby carrots, grape tomatoes, and Persian cucumbers. Yum!

Edited June 21, 2021 by YaelAldrich
Need veggies, duh!

[YaelAldrich]

On 6/18/2021 at 8:55 PM, Farrar said:

My friend who keeps kosher says that the majority of kosher restaurants are terrible. I'm sure that varies a lot by area, of course. Given that this person said making vegan food is fine... I think you have your answer if you want to cook a meal.

Sadly many kosher restaurants are not that great. But some really are. The ambiance of our local kosher Indian/pizza place is non existent, especially since they aren't seating people yet. But the food is AMAZING! You have to go to bigger Jewish communities to get the combo of good food and ambiance. It will cost you a pretty penny though.

[YaelAldrich]

There's also the issue of bishul yisrael which means food cooked by a Jewish person. Food that is fit for a "king's table" is supposed to be cooked by a Jew. In practice that means at least the flame/heat needs to be turned on by a Jew or the flame/heat needs to be adjusted by a Jew. My theoretical meal above is ok being made by a non-Jew as it doesn't fall under those parameters for most Orthodox Jews.

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, YaelAldrich said:

There's also the issue of bishul yisrael which means food cooked by a Jewish person. Food that is fit for a "king's table" is supposed to be cooked by a Jew. In practice that means at least the flame/heat needs to be turned on by a Jew or the flame/heat needs to be adjusted by a Jew. My theoretical meal above is ok being made by a non-Jew as it doesn't fall under those parameters for most Orthodox Jews.

I could just have him turn on the stove right?  

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, YaelAldrich said:

Sadly many kosher restaurants are not that great. But some really are. The ambiance of our local kosher Indian/pizza place is non existent, especially since they aren't seating people yet. But the food is AMAZING! You have to go to bigger Jewish communities to get the combo of good food and ambiance. It will cost you a pretty penny though.

We've got a variety of kosher options around, some of which are good.  

[TravelingChris]

On 6/19/2021 at 10:17 AM, Beth S said:

I'm not Jewish, but worked in a Jewish nursing home (40 years ago)!
My understanding was that they did not mix meat and dairy.
We had two completely duplicate kitchen setups.

Yes, and I was surprised when I visited Poland in the 70's and found that there still were dairy restaurants=like not just one but a number of them.

[Drama Llama]

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Edited October 29, 2021 by Nothingtoseehere

[YaelAldrich]

5 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I could just have him turn on the stove right?  

Yes, that would totally work.

5 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

We've got a variety of kosher options around, some of which are good.  

Then you're very lucky (if you kept kosher). 😁

5 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Now, I have a million more questions, I hope it's not too much.  You can tell me to go away if it is.   Pre pandemic he was at our house 2 to 3 times a week for dinner, but I think post pandemic he'll probably come for a combination of breakfast and dinner.  

My first question is, how would I keep the dishes kosher?  I assume I have to wash them separately?  Can I wash them by themselves in the dishwasher?  In my non-kosher sink?  Do I buy a dish pan, and keep that with the dishes?  

Can I just go to the kosher grocery store, and assume all their fish is fine?  If I know a fish is OK (e.g. salmon or tilapia) can I buy it at the regular store? 

Would any new pan work?  Can I assume that if I go to the store and buy any new pan, that pan is then kosher until I somehow unkosher it?

Is that a general rule that I could make things that are covered in the oven, but not uncovered?  Is cooking on the stove top out, assuming a new pan?  Would I need to cover that? 

It sounds delicious, maybe I will serve that on Tuesday.  I just need more than one meal.  

Finally, what about eggs?  Can I cook with eggs?  

When I'm in a non kosher house I tend to do disposables even it isn't ecological.  It is easier because you need different sets of dishes if you're going to do meat or dairy (or their derivatives). You can't wash kosher dishes, cutlery, pots, etc  with non kosher things (sponges, dishwasher) nor can you wash implements (dishes, cutlery, pots, etc) used with dairy with implements used with meat. In my house I have dairy implements, meat implements , and parve ones (so foods that don't fall in either category - fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, pasta, rice- can be eaten with either meat or dairy). So it's complicated if you want to make any old kind of food. If you stick to fish and sides like rice, potatoes, veggies, fruit, it's only one set of everything and less confusion.

If you want to use reusables, you can hand wash everything with a new sponge or clean dish towel and dish soap. You can invest in a new dish pan if you want. I have a pile of pans and stuff at my parent's home for this purpose.

Any fish with fins and scales is kosher but you have to leave on the skin and at least remnants of scales to know it's kosher if it comes from a regular store. Buying from a kosher store makes it easier and more expensive.

If you want to cook in a non kosher oven you need to DOUBLE wrap the food/pan in aluminum foil. Two layers. You could cook on a stove top in a new pan kosher for but you shouldn't cook non kosher food on that stovetop at the same time. All utensils used must be new and kosher as well.

Eggs from kosher animals (chicken, duck, quail) are kosher. You can cook with them. You could do a baked shakshouka if you got the frozen shakshouka base from trader Joe's or a kosher store or made your own matboucha (!).

I think I answered everything. Don't hesitate to ask more. I'll keep an eye out on this thread.

Edited June 21, 2021 by YaelAldrich
Autocorrect is a poop

[Drama Llama]

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[YaelAldrich]

I'll answer after my kosher dinner out at a nice restaurant.... 😁😁

[YaelAldrich]

3 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I am.  It's nice to know that if I'm running late, or we want to change things up, I've got a couple places I can stop and grab things.  I just don't want to do that every time.  

I think what I'd like to do is get enough place settings and glasses for just our household plus him and few things to cook with, like a pot, pan, cutting board, and knife, wooden spoon; etc . . .  Then they can live on a top shelf, and only come out if we're cooking for him, or if we get some other kosher visitor.

Then, if something's different, like we have extra people, or we pick up a kosher pizza so there's dairy, or whatever, then we use disposables.  But we don't attempt to cook with either dairy or meat.  We just keep cooking vegan and fish like we've done.  

So, I don't need to kasher my sink?  Can I wash right in the sink?  What about my counter tops, can I put the dishes in my regular dish drainer?  Can I put them on paper towel on my non-kosher countertops to dry?  Can I use a dish rag or dish towel that's been washed but was previously used for other foods?  If I buy new ones of those, can I put them in my regular washing machine? 

If I buy something like canned tuna, that has the (U) on it, then I don't need to see the skin right?  

It sounds like I should just go to the kosher store, buy a bunch of fish, and stick it in the freezer still in it's packaging, and then I can supplement with produce, eggs, and prepared food with the (U) from my regular grocery store?  My fridge and freezer are fine right?

Just so I'm totally clear, when you say "new", you mean something I bought for this purpose.  As long as I don't use that pan for something that's not parve, I can keep using the same pan right?  

I make really good shakshouka. 

Sorry, I know I'm asking a million questions.  This is super helpful.

So you want everyone to eat the same meal and off the same dishes etc? That's fine and generous. 

You can wash in your sink IF you aren't laying the kosher stuff in your sink and running hot (over 110F) water on them while they're touching your non kosher sink. Nothing kosher if it's hot should touch your non kosher stuff -countertop, sink, stovetop (if you want to cook on a stovetop you'll need to either turn on a burner if you have exposed electric  coils and let it get red hot and let cool down again then cook or if using gas turn on the burner for about 10 minutes on high until the area is very hot and any residue has been burnt off). I wouldn't use your dish rack. I would use a towel or something clean and absorbent on your counter. You can use a previously used washcloth that is washed in a machine clean. You can wash kosher and non kosher cloths together.

Tuna or salmon with on OU is fine. If the fish has an acceptable kosher symbol you don't need to see fins and scales.  

Your fridge and freezer are fine. Only don't put hot kosher food in either.

The utensils you buy for this purpose need to have never been used for non kosher cooking before. If you designate a new pot as dairy, you cannot change it to another thing (meat, parve). Does that make sense?

[YaelAldrich]

2 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

I'll answer after my kosher dinner out at a nice restaurant.... 😁😁

I'm sure you're dying to know what I ate @BaseballandHockey. 😁 My DH sent me to N Miami Beach/Surfside to relax for a couple days. So I am trying all the local hot kosher spots. Tonight I had a fried chicken sandwich with fresh cut fries and cole slaw, white sangria, and lychee creme brulee. Lunch was Caesar salad and mushroom Alfredo pasta, and vanilla custard for dessert.

[Drama Llama]

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[Drama Llama]

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[YaelAldrich]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

No, I'm just lazy.  If I want my kids to do the dishes, I need to make it easy.  

OK, I actually have no idea what temp my water comes out.  My FIL will know.  I'll ask him. 

Yeah, I can go to some place like Walmart and assume that anything they sell as "new" is safe right?  And if I make everything parve, and then later I decide to add dairy, I can change things that way.  Just not the other way right?  I think that meat isn't going to happen.  

This is super helpful.  He's coming tomorrow, so I think we're going to pick up kosher Chinese food, eat off paper plates, and then we can talk through options.  

Lazy is my middle name!  Hot water is too hot when you have to pull your hand away from it after a second or two.

You are correct about the dishes and the pareve could become dairy but the dairy can never become pareve. Mark them if/when you start getting different sets of things. Nail polish works well. Traditionally, green is pareve and red is meat and blue is dairy.

[Drama Llama]

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[Terabith]

This is genuinely super interesting!  

[amiesmom]

48 minutes ago, Terabith said:

This is genuinely super interesting!  

I agree!

[Drama Llama]

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[Drama Llama]

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[YaelAldrich]

22 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

@YaelAldrich

I'm back with more questions.  

We saw my friend yesterday, and ate kosher Chinese take out because I wasn't ready.  He seemed really kind of touched that I offered to do this, and thanked me, so we're going to try to sort it out. 

For the next six weeks, he'll be at my house for breakfast every day.  I often cook some kind of whole grain thing in advance, and then my kids scramble their own eggs in the morning.  But I'm stuck on how I could do that.  I'm assuming the following:

I can't make toast in my toaster 

I can't make oatmeal or quinoa or grits in my crock pot (unless I bought a second croc and lid?)

Can I bake something like baked oatmeal or muffins in my oven?  I think I probably can't because they'd have to be covered, and that would make the liquid not evaporate and they'd be soggy.  

I thought I'd just make a bunch of pancakes, or French toast and then freeze them, but then I realized I can't reheat the in the microwave, because I can't put foil there.

Any ideas?  We're just going to do bagels and cream cheese from the kosher store on disposables until we get things set up when I get off work in a few days, but long term, I'd love to have more variety.

 

 

You're back! 😁

You could get a new toaster or toaster oven just for kosher. With which you could do lots of things with after (keeping said toaster oven one type: pareve, dairy, or meat.). You could make muffins or baked french toast or baked oatmeal.

You could double wrap things in two separate layers of plastic wrap on top of a clean new paper plate  to go in your non kosher microwave. Be careful -it gets hot and steamy inside the wrap.

You could buy a weensy crock pot and wash it kosher like I said above.

There are frozen kosher pancakes, waffles, and muffins at every grocery store with a kosher symbol like OU, OK, Star-K, Chof-K. You can warm them up in your new toaster oven or double wrapped in the microwave or regular oven.

You can microwave cook scrambled eggs in a microwave safe bowl double wrapped on top of a clean new paper plate.

Does that help?

[Drama Llama]

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[Drama Llama]

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[Drama Llama]

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[YaelAldrich]

20 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

@YaelAldrich I have more questions.

We got the pots and pans and dishes and a few other things.  Made kosher minestrone and gazpacho.  Did not get a toaster oven yet.  

I think I want to try dairy.  It just opens up so many more options.  What are the rules for dairy?  I looked online and fell down a rabbit hole reading about the mashgiach watching the cows, but also how maybe the government can be trusted to supervise, and then I became really confused.  

If we decide not to do dairy, and I give my kids a glass of non kosher milk (if that’s a thing as I said I am very confused) with their kosher scrambled eggs, for example, and then they eat and drink does that mess up the plates and silverware?

Also, my son and I were brainstorming foods and I explained that the toaster is not kosher.  He wants to know if he sticks a koshe fork in a piece of kosher bread and then blasts it with the little flame torch we have for creme brûlée is that an ok way to toast it?  A major goal in his life is to shoot things with flame so he is hoping you say yes.  

 

Milk products in the US have two different levels of kosher supervision to insure the milk of an animal was from a kosher animal (Yes, Matilda; donkey  and camel milk are popular in the world!) - 1. chalav yisrael (kosher animal milk (cows, goats, sheep, giraffe, bison, etc) that has been overseen and supervised by an Observant/Orthodox Jew from the milking of the animal all the way through the bottling/container sealing process and 2. chalav stam (kosher animal milk) that was supervised by a sound and strict governmental agency all the way from the milking of the animal all the way through to the bottling/container sealing process.  A famous and revered rabbi in the US (Rabbi Moshe Feinstein) said that the US government's supervision of milk was of the same status as chalav yisrael because the government was strong and wanted to insure cow milk was cow milk etc.  He did say that people who wanted a higher level of kosher keeping could and should use only milk that was supervised by a Jew.  Now I am going to make an assumption of your friend that if s/he is comfortable eating from your house, it's likely they will eat chalav stam.  I could be wrong; ask him/her about it.  

If you want to go dairy in your home's mobile kosher kitchen you cannot EVER EVER EVER use the dishes, pots, pans, cutlery, or anything else with meat, chicken, or its derivatives.  That means if you buy a rotisserie chicken from your kosher store you CANNOT serve it on those dishes, from those pans, with that cutlery.  Even foods that don't have meat or chicken in them but were cooked in pots/pans that held meat at one point (say a rice dish from a kosher restaurant  that serves meaty foods  but has no chicken/meat/broth in it is still considered MEATY and CANNOT be served on your dishes/pots/pans).  LIkewise if you decide to make your kitchen meaty, you cannot EVER EVER EVER serve dairy or its derivatives (and those are found in more places than you will ever think!!!!) on your meaty stuff.  I would show every single thing you purchase to your friend to ascertain if it is useable in your kitchen BEFORE you cook it if you decide to go dairy or meat.  Once you know appropriate kosher symbols and how they affect the status of your kosher kitchen you might not have to do that every time.  But for his sake and your comfort I would do that for at least a month.

In your example, you have made your kitchen MEAT or left it PAREVE (neither meat nor dairy).  If you put milk in the food or dishes (and warmed it up past that magical 110F or left it in there for over 24 hours) you have made that cup milky/dairy.  Your Jewish friend should not eat using that cup and you should discard the cup or move it to your non-kosher stash of food.  In your example you have found non-kosher milk - extremely hard to do in the US but it is possible!  As I said all USDA certified cow milk is kosher according to Rabbi Feinstein and most milk in the US has a kosher symbol (Hecksher or hashgacha) on it.   So the milk should only be in a cup designated dairy by your family.  Your family should not use kosher dishes if you are not 100% serious about keeping them as kosher as your friend would in his/her home.  It is easier (if not ecological) to use paper. The plate with which you placed the not-DAIRY scrambled eggs is still not-DAIRY as is the cutlery.  If the milk is cold, it is much less of an issue, but I would never suggest that you do this on a regular basis because laxity in kosher keeping is too easy to stretch and stretch until you make a mistake that can't be easily rectified.  I would ask your friend if s/he has a rabbi they would recommend you speak to and keep on speed dial for all kosher matters.  That way any issues can be dealt with quickly and easily. You just call the rabbi and speak to him and give the details as you see them.  He asks more questions if he needs to and renders a decision.  Totally normal- all kosher keeping Jews make boo-boos and this is how we fix them.

 

58 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I must add that, given my son's life goals, the flame torch may or may not have already been used for other, non kosher purposes such as making s'mores with marshmallows with non-kosher gelatin.  

Yes, your firebug could use the creme brulee torch to  make toast or even kosher smores. 🔥 The level of heat coming from said torch will render it kosher once you have turned it on, created the flame and left it to burn for 3-5 minutes until the part where the flame comes out is super duper hot - enough to singe a tissue when the flame has been turned off.

[Drama Llama]

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Edited October 29, 2021 by Nothingtoseehere

[YaelAldrich]

13 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Thank you!

I get the separation.  If we do meat at all it will be purchased from the kosher store or restaurant and eaten on paper.  

I will ask about chalav yisrael.  In the meantime I planned dairy free stuff for this week.  If he can eat regular dairy with a hecksher I will probably do that. He showed me some heckshers he approves of so for now I stick with those. 

My son will be very happy about the torch. 

Starting next Friday night until Sunday 1 hour after sundown is a complicating matter.  It will be the Nine Days, a sad and solemn period in the Jewish calendar.  We don't eat meat, chicken, or their derivatives during this time period.  On Saturday night July 17 until one hour past sunset on Sunday, July 18 s/he will neither eat or drink for 25 hours.  It is Tisha B'Av, the most sad day in the Jewish calendar (not Yom Kippur, which is a solemn day and even a little bit of a celebration at the end!).

[YaelAldrich]

@BaseballandHockey,I do wonder what your friend must think about your sudden kosher knowledge....

You can tell him I am real, live Orthodox Jewish rebbitzen (rabbi's wife), so I know from whence I speak as far as keeping kosher.  😄

[Drama Llama]

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[Drama Llama]

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[Drama Llama]

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[YaelAldrich]

13 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

In past years he hasn’t worked on Tisha B’av.  This year, we wouldn’t see him anyway because he doesn’t come during the weekend.  

Can I serve fish on the 9 days? 

Fish, beans, tofu.  Just no chicken, beef, lamb, etc.

13 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

My friend is like me, he falls down rabbit holes from curiosity a lot.  I will tell him though.  

Good!

13 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Two more questions?

Honey?  Pareve? 

Balsamic?  Needs to come from kosher store? 

Honey needs a kosher symbol but it is pareve unless otherwise noted on the container.

Balsamic does need to be specifically kosher.  I will suggest the Bartenura brand with a green label ONLY.  The rest are really yucky.  You  will find it in the kosher store. or perhaps in the kosher aisle of your local nicer regular grocery store.

[Terabith]

20 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I must add that, given my son's life goals, the flame torch may or may not have already been used for other, non kosher purposes such as making s'mores with marshmallows with non-kosher gelatin.  

I think your son needs to go do culinary camp at @Spy Car's house.  With his kittens that he needs to get.  

[Drama Llama]

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