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Xahm
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We have been living book rather than textbook people so far, but I got myself excited about the idea of using a science textbook for my (significantly advanced) rising fourth grader. The advantages: 1. she could work more independently and I could use this to also help teach note taking, organization, etc and 2. She could gain an overview of science, hopefully pinpointing some areas of interest so that we could use middle school years following rabbit trails before starting more traditional courses in high school. Unfortunately, the textbook I picked up just depresses me. It was clearly written by committee and so very disjointed. There are elements I can still use, but I think I need a new spine. Does anyone have any secular suggestions for books that are enjoyable and educational that would give a good overview of science? It's ok with me to have one focused on biology, one on chemistry, etc. A middle school or early high school reading level would be best, and it's okay to have educational information about mature topics, but not jokes about them. I can come up with assignments easily enough. 

As background, we tried to go through the K-2 BFSU when she was in second but gave it up when everything we covered she had already learned through books, shows, and experiences, and that was the last time we tried something organized for science. Of course, she's kept reading, watching shows, experiencing life and tinkering.

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I thought CPO Middle School Earth Science was readable and well done. The labs were somewhat hard to pull off. There is a blog where she shows how she adapted many of the labs. It's called "Now is the Best time."  I learned after I ran the lab at co-op that you can borrow a stream table from the local soil and water conservation district for free, and it's huge and awesome.  It's definitely worth looking into that if you have a hands-on kid.

The Prentice Hall Science Explorer physics titles were okay--we covered forces and motion, energy and magnetism, and light and sound.  The labs in the book were awful though. I would suggest looking for maybe the combined volume (It has five of the explorer titles and is called Physical Science)  and see if you can find the labs for that. My friend said that lab book was okay.  The Physical Science book includes three physics titles plus two chemistry titles.  There is a guided reading notebook for it, or you can buy the individual titles and individual guided reading notebooks for them. 

We liked ACS middle school chemistry but it is very parent-intensive.  We supplemented it with Carbon Chemistry, but that is not secular.  

 

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I also found CPO to be reasonably well done.  They have middle school books for Earth Science, Life Science, and Physical Science.  They also offer high school level materials.  Each section has a few questions at the end, and each chapter has a review.  There are also some worthwhile extension activities in their Skill Sheets.  The Student Pages have two labs for each chapter (and there's usually one or two more lab-type activities in the book).  While some of the labs were pretty much impossible to do without the huge supply kit, I was generally able to find one per week that we could manage at home.  (For example, we just used an under-bed storage bin--one of the plastic ones--for our stream table and took it and our water cooler to a local park with a sand volleyball pit to experiment.)  My complaint with CPO is that I felt like they introduced a fair amount of vocab, but surprisingly little content that we hadn't hit yet.  But then again, we were trying to use them for middle school, so it might be perfect for you.  (We used BFSU K-2 in pre-K and K and have done interest-led or living book-based science until this year.)

CPO materials used to be entirely available online; I'm not sure if that's changed in recent years.

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I forgot but eternally's post reminded me--there used to be a lab book and student worksheets for labs available for free online for CPO but they are now behind a paywall. If you want the Earth Science ones, I still have them.  I also have them for CPO physical science but I didn't use that text.

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1 hour ago, Xahm said:

As background, we tried to go through the K-2 BFSU when she was in second but gave it up when everything we covered she had already learned through books, shows, and experiences, and that was the last time we tried something organized for science. Of course, she's kept reading, watching shows, experiencing life and tinkering.

I'm impressed that happened for you guys. That hasn't been the case for us -- a lot of the stuff in there we know, but some of the fundamentals, like the idea of energy, are definitely not well-developed in our daily life. Which is why I'm still kind of planning on working through the book, even though DD8 is going to be in Grade 4... 

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I have not seen any science textbook through high school level that I found acceptable. Too much focus on vocabulary, busywork, and often explanations simplified to the point of being incorrect. Sometimes disturbingly so. That the writing is not engaging pales in comparison to those flaws.
We schooled science using living books and documentaries until the kids were able to work off a college textbook in highschool. (Those are adopted by people who are actually experts in the field, and a bad book will quickly die out - whereas any school textbooks are adopted by a school board whose members do not possess any subject expertise to actually evaluate the books and just get sold something by a publishing company.)
Our approach served my kids well; both majored in physics at college.
FWIW, both DH and I are physics professors and science education is very important to us. What passes for textbooks at school does not fit our educational philosophy.

Edited by regentrude
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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I have not seen any science textbook through high school level that I found acceptable. Too much focus on vocabulary, busywork, and often explanations simplified to the point of being incorrect. Sometimes disturbingly so. That the writing is not engaging pales in comparison to those flaws.
We schooled science using living books and documentaries until the kids were able to work off a college textbook in highschool. (Those are adopted by people who are actually experts in the field, and a bad book will quickly die out - whereas any school textbooks are adopted by a school board whose members do not possess any subject expertise to actually evaluate the books and just get sold something by a publishing company.)
Our approach served my kids well; both majored in physics at college.
FWIW, both DH and I are physics professors and science education is very important to us. What passes for textbooks at school does not fit our educational philosophy.

As you're way more of an expert than me, how do you feel about BFSU? We've mostly been schooling via books written at the college level and above, mixed in with living books and whatever takes our fancy. But I've been toying with the idea of doing BFSU more seriously. 

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm impressed that happened for you guys. That hasn't been the case for us -- a lot of the stuff in there we know, but some of the fundamentals, like the idea of energy, are definitely not well-developed in our daily life. Which is why I'm still kind of planning on working through the book, even though DD8 is going to be in Grade 4... 

I'm not going to claim that they had everything mastered, but I kept starting to tell them something, then they took over and explained the whole thing. I would start to describe one of the activities before we did it, and they would tell me exactly what was going to happen and why. If I had pressed on to the end of the book I would likely have found something new, but I just decided that learning by osmosis (I know I'm not using that word scientifically) was working, so I shouldn't do a whole bunch extra work myself for so little additional gain.

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

I forgot but eternally's post reminded me--there used to be a lab book and student worksheets for labs available for free online for CPO but they are now behind a paywall. If you want the Earth Science ones, I still have them.  I also have them for CPO physical science but I didn't use that text.

That would be great. I'm going to be looking at CPO after I (finally) get the kids in bed tonight.

 

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I have not seen any science textbook through high school level that I found acceptable. Too much focus on vocabulary, busywork, and often explanations simplified to the point of being incorrect. Sometimes disturbingly so. That the writing is not engaging pales in comparison to those flaws.
We schooled science using living books and documentaries until the kids were able to work off a college textbook in highschool. (Those are adopted by people who are actually experts in the field, and a bad book will quickly die out - whereas any school textbooks are adopted by a school board whose members do not possess any subject expertise to actually evaluate the books and just get sold something by a publishing company.)
Our approach served my kids well; both majored in physics at college.
FWIW, both DH and I are physics professors and science education is very important to us. What passes for textbooks at school does not fit our educational philosophy.

That's exactly what I found in the textbook I got. There's information in there she doesn't know yet, but I have no confidence she will know it much better after reading through the book, either. Do you have any favorite middle school or even popular science adult easy read living books you would recommend? I really want her to learn, but also to gain some deeper appreciation of the scope of knowledge out there so that she knows what to ask questions about.

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Just now, Xahm said:

I'm not going to claim that they had everything mastered, but I kept starting to tell them something, then they took over and explained the whole thing. I would start to describe one of the activities before we did it, and they would tell me exactly what was going to happen and why. If I had pressed on to the end of the book I would likely have found something new, but I just decided that learning by osmosis (I know I'm not using that word scientifically) was working, so I shouldn't do a whole bunch extra work myself for so little additional gain.

We never really did their activities properly, lol. So I have no idea what would have happened if we had. But the idea of energy was definitely new to my kids. It's possible we don't do enough living books or documentaries for science, or we just talk about this stuff in the wrong way... I take it energy was as easy for your kids as everything else? For us, the pre-energy stuff was totally trivial for DD8, but energy was new as an idea, especially thinking about it changing from one kind to another. 

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17 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

As you're way more of an expert than me, how do you feel about BFSU? We've mostly been schooling via books written at the college level and above, mixed in with living books and whatever takes our fancy. But I've been toying with the idea of doing BFSU more seriously. 

Don't know that curriculum. 

My goal for science education before highschool was to keep curiosity alive, foster observation skills, and create a broad, but not comprehensive,  knowledge base on which to build systematic study in highschool. I generally have found textbooks and scripted curricula to kill excitement and interest, not spark it. Perhaps BFSU is an exception. 

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19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

We never really did their activities properly, lol. So I have no idea what would have happened if we had. But the idea of energy was definitely new to my kids. It's possible we don't do enough living books or documentaries for science, or we just talk about this stuff in the wrong way... I take it energy was as easy for your kids as everything else? For us, the pre-energy stuff was totally trivial for DD8, but energy was new as an idea, especially thinking about it changing from one kind to another. 

In my opinion, there is no need for an 8 year old to have an abstract knowledge of the concept "energy" . But an 8 year old can go on a field trip to look at a water mill or a hydroelectric plant, drop balls from a height and see them get faster... and understand energy transformation without even knowing that term.

Edited by regentrude
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2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

In my opinion, there is no need for an 8 year old to have an abstract knowledge of the concept "energy" . But an 8 year old can go on a field trip to look at a water mill or a hydroelectric plant, drop balls from a height and see them get faster... and understand energy transformation without even knowing that term.

For me, the idea of inculcating basic concepts really resonated. It's how I think about teaching math, so it makes sense for me with science. 

That being said, we haven't followed through -- so far, most of what we've done for science is make observations, test hypotheses, and follow rabbit trails. And I've been perfectly happy with it. I just do wonder about the more conceptual approach. (Plus, my kids like the demonstrations that go with that.) 

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6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

For me, the idea of inculcating basic concepts really resonated. It's how I think about teaching math, so it makes sense for me with science. 

That being said, we haven't followed through -- so far, most of what we've done for science is make observations, test hypotheses, and follow rabbit trails. And I've been perfectly happy with it. I just do wonder about the more conceptual approach. (Plus, my kids like the demonstrations that go with that.) 

But as you said in the math thread, you start by relating the concept to something concrete.

And really, I see no point in abstract physics concepts before the student is ready to apply algebra and problem solve. There is plenty of time then. Because saying "energy" really doesn't mean anything by itself. Have you read Feynman, where he has to examine those textbooks and writes a bitter criticism of "energy makes it go"?

 

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1 minute ago, regentrude said:

But as you said in the math thread, you start by relating the concept to something concrete.

And really, I see no point in abstract physics concepts before the student is ready to apply algebra and problem solve. There is plenty of time then. Because saying "energy" really doesn't mean anything by itself. Have you read Feynman, where he has to examine those textbooks and writes a bitter criticism of "energy makes it go"?

Hmmm, I haven't read that specifically, although I've read a bunch of Feynman. Is it anywhere online? 

I do think you can apply the energy concepts to problem solve heuristically quite early on, although you wouldn't be able to calculate. (Although to be fair, DD8 already does know algebra and probably really COULD use the concept. We aren't planning to start that yet, though.) 

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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmm, I haven't read that specifically, although I've read a bunch of Feynman. Is it anywhere online? 

I do think you can apply the energy concepts to problem solve heuristically quite early on, although you wouldn't be able to calculate. (Although to be fair, DD8 already does know algebra and probably really COULD use the concept. We aren't planning to start that yet, though.) 

It's in one of his autobiographical books, perhaps in Surely you're joking.

I am not saying you can't cover these concepts yet. Just that I see no benefit.

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1 minute ago, regentrude said:

It's in one of his autobiographical books, perhaps in Surely you're joking.

I am not saying you can't cover these concepts yet. Just that I see no benefit.

I don't know. I could do the work in my science classes, but the concepts didn't gel properly for me -- I was so used to math and found it so intuitive that I didn't put the work into physics. I actually think early exposure would have helped. 

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I found it online:

http://fy.chalmers.se/~f3aamp/teaching/wakalix.html

I see his point, if you stop at "Energy makes it go." But actually, I found that when I started talking about energy to my kids, it really did rid them of a few misconceptions and it became possible to talk about the idea of preservation of energy and energy being turned from one form to another. And I do think that's a helpful way to think, and it allows for an early ability to distinguish energy from force... I don't know. I do feel like I'd have benefited. 

 

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8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

And really, I see no point in abstract physics concepts before the student is ready to apply algebra and problem solve. There is plenty of time then. Because saying "energy" really doesn't mean anything by itself. Have you read Feynman, where he has to examine those textbooks and writes a bitter criticism of "energy makes it go"?

For what it's worth I was really impressed with BFSU's discussion of energy, pretty rich and done without math and without lies.

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1 hour ago, UHP said:

For what it's worth I was really impressed with BFSU's discussion of energy, pretty rich and done without math and without lies.

Honestly, that was the bit that sold me on the curriculum. Because I was definitely not talking about it in a helpful, unifying way, and flipping through the book fixed that. 

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The approach I took for my advanced 4th-6th grader was to have him independently read trade books that were textbookish in scope but not textbooks. The idea was to get a kid used to reading the same book for > a month, to make sure it was nonfiction (NOT narrative nonfiction which is what people refer to as 'living books'), and to have my son do it independently.  

4th grade: Physics. The Way Things Work - a great description of mechanics from the point of view of objects kids have experience with. My son read and studied one spread a day (so one machine) until he finished it.

5th grade: Biology. The Way Life Works - DNA, replication, transcription, translation etc but with cartoons. And the Cartoon Guide to Genetics - what is sounds like. 🙂 

6th grade: Earth Science. First real textbook. Earth Science by Tarbuck. Well written, fascinating, at a good level for a kid who has finished the above. 

During this time, my son also started reading Scientific American which gave him understanding of a huge breadth of current topics. He also watched a documentary each day - the high quality ones. 

 

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18 hours ago, UHP said:

For what it's worth I was really impressed with BFSU's discussion of energy, pretty rich and done without math and without lies.

LOL, I know what you mean by "without lies" but I still think your post was funny.  

It's always a good thing when your science textbook isn't lying to you.   🙂  

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