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Top surgery for young person


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1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Some of think we shouldn't be sending them off to war either, given what we now know about brain maturation.

Or that’s exactly why we send them at that age, before they know better.  

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I'd say give yourself time to feel what you are feeling about your loved one.  The Hive is a good place to work out all of the scenarios.  I think of it as a simulator where you can hash out your thoughts and feelings without harming anyone in real life.  Once you get through your initial reaction I'm sure you'll be able to focus on loving that soul that you've always loved.

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1 hour ago, Terabith said:They plan to have top surgery next summer, when they are 18.  I wish they would wait longer, but I understand the reasoning, and being under our insurance, which does cover it, is a good reason to do it, I think. 

Just a quick question because you’re the 2nd one to mention parental insurance. Is that as big of a factor now that they can stay on until they are 26? It would seem like that would buy them more time.   

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Just now, HeartString said:

Just a quick question because you’re the 2nd one to mention parental insurance. Is that as big of a factor now that they can stay on until they are 26? It would seem like that would buy them more time.   

It does, but it's also a long time to ask someone who is intensely uncomfortable in their body to remain that way while they try to establish themselves in career and relationship.  And if they take a job with benefits, they might not have the option to stay on better insurance that covers more or have the time to take off to recover from surgery.  

Saying, "I know you've felt intense discomfort in your skin since you were 12, but I think you have to wait till you are 25" feels kinda mean, you know?  Keep your life on hold until you're 25.  

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6 hours ago, maize said:

For those who don't see the problem with using potential suicide risk to try to shame people into behaving a particular way, please think of how that plays out in other contexts.

I have a friend whose boyfriend told her that if she left him he would kill himself.

She left him.

A few months later he shot himself.

His family blames her for his death.

would you shame her and others like her if they don't conform their behavior to the demands of other people because there is a perceived risk or explicit threat of suicide if they don't comply?

 

 

There is a general problem with reinforcing the idea that *other people* are responsible for an individual's happiness or unhappiness, that *other people's* behavior must be compliant with Person A's desires for Person A to be happy. That is not a mindset that is conducive to good mental health. 

That has nothing to do with this.

Think of it more like a child who is rejected every day of her life by her parents who choose their morality or their religion over her because she is transgender. Child desperately wants to be accepted as she is but parents and other “honest” people reject her. Child goes out into the world and experiences yet more rejection from people (“honest” people, naturally) who refuse to accept her as she is. Because they cannot tell a lie and  she was born Michael and not Michelle. And accepting her as she needs to be accepted would prevent them from ascending into some made-up place in an imagined afterlife, so it’s better to be cruel to her in the here-and-now so they can aspire to greatness in an imagined world. Like a PP said, it’s death by a thousand cuts. And I repeat, unconscionable behavior.

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1 hour ago, HeartString said:

Or that’s exactly why we send them at that age, before they know better.  

Sure. Maybe. 

My point was, when considering pre-frontal cortex maturity, some of us are consistent. I've encouraged my kids to delay drinking as well. 

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51 minutes ago, bibiche said:

And accepting her as she needs to be accepted would prevent them from ascending into some made-up place in an imagined afterlife, so it’s better to be cruel to her in the here-and-now so they can aspire to greatness in an imagined world. 

What's up with the sarcastic, nasty cracks against other people's religious beliefs lately, bibiche? 

One of the things I like most about this board is that we are generally civil to each other. I hate to appeal to board rules, but there is this:

"Don't attack another poster's background, religious convictions, experience, or parenting style."

I don't pass judgment on your motivations and I would appreciate you not passing judgment on mine. 

(I have no illusions, BTW, that I will achieve greatness in the world to come. 😉  Chief of sinners escaping through the flames, more like.)

Edited by MercyA
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4 hours ago, MercyA said:

Don't attack another poster's background, religious convictions, experience, or parenting style."

I do think bibiche’s post is more straw man than an attack on any particular poster.  

On the subject at hand, I have always used the name and pronouns requested of me. I do feel I have to go along to get along and I would not want to cause anyone distress. Having said that, I think the video linked by San Diego Mom interesting. I very much believe in the power of word choice; it is why I despise when people call grown women “girls”. It’s why I think it’s a net negative to address someone by a childish nickname; for example, nicknames born out of mispronunciation in childhood but are used permanently as the name. The point made by the person in the video about direction and path is a good one. 

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2 hours ago, Quill said:

I do think bibiche’s post is more straw man than an attack on any particular poster.  

On the subject at hand, I have always used the name and pronouns requested of me. I do feel I have to go along to get along and I would not want to cause anyone distress. Having said that, I think the video linked by San Diego Mom interesting. I very much believe in the power of word choice; it is why I despise when people call grown women “girls”. It’s why I think it’s a net negative to address someone by a childish nickname; for example, nicknames born out of mispronunciation in childhood but are used permanently as the name. The point made by the person in the video about direction and path is a good one. 

Me too...to the bolded...

that’s why I think there is such a deliberate push to call a *double mastectomy* the relatively innocuous sounding “top surgery”

it minimizes what is happening 

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10 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree with all of this. I am also flummoxed by a society that sends them to war at 17 and 18 trusting them to make complex, life altering decisions in the blink of an eye, but then gets squeamish about that same group making medical decisions for themselves.

 

10 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Some of think we shouldn't be sending them off to war either, given what we now know about brain maturation.

 

10 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

100% agreed. In my state they cannot buy a beer until 21, but can be in the military at 17. Makes my brain twitch!

The difference between one person choosing to use medical means to change their body at and one person joining the military at 17 is that the person changing their body actually and mostly permanently changes it.

the person joining the military is not necessarily going to war at 17, and not necessarily going to war in a combat position at 17.

that being said, I’d fully support the military changing to only permit combat positions above a certain age.

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16 minutes ago, pinball said:

Me too...to the bolded...

that’s why I think there is such a deliberate push to call a *double mastectomy* the relatively innocuous sounding “top surgery”

it minimizes what is happening 

That is an *excellant* point.

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9 hours ago, HeartString said:

Just a quick question because you’re the 2nd one to mention parental insurance. Is that as big of a factor now that they can stay on until they are 26? It would seem like that would buy them more time.   

Also, I don't know many teens right now who have any confidence that anything will stay the same. Health care reform, in particular, has been attacked again and again. It can definitely lead to a feeling of urgency that might not otherwise exist. 

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I totally get struggling with feelings, especially with someone close to you. I'm someone who's always been on the Left and a strong progressive yet when it comes to teens & permanent gender surgery/medications, I'm.....extremely uncomfortable with all of it, probably because the speed with which everyone is supposed to jump on board, no questions asked, feels....unwise to me. But, too often, I can say *nothing* otherwise I'm immediately branded a "TERF" or some other label. Sigh.

DD, 15, has numerous friends who are F2M in identification. All live in very strict patriarchal Christian households. I do wonder if there is a correlation there, whether rebellion is a factor or, more likely, as mentioned above, feeling trapped by the severe limitations (for females) imposed by that belief system & acting out. No, I'm not saying that's true for trans people in general, but I am wondering if these factors superimpose themselves when it comes to gender identification for teens.

BTW, Quill, I really find Stoicism (seriously) to help me better handle things I can't control but which impact me. I like dailystoic.com, but there are lots of resources out there.

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There aren't a ton of good long term studies of suicidal risks, but here are a couple:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Long term (30 years) study of 324 Swedish patients who had Sexual Reassignment Surgery. Results showed "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

A study from Amsterdam  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/  of a cohort of 8263 referrals between 1972-2017 showed "no increase in suicide death risk over time and even a decrease in suicide death risk in trans women. However, the suicide risk in transgender people is higher than in the general population and seems to occur during every stage of transitioning."

 

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9 hours ago, MercyA said:

What's up with the sarcastic, nasty cracks against other people's religious beliefs lately, bibiche? 

One of the things I like most about this board is that we are generally civil to each other. I hate to appeal to board rules, but there is this:

"Don't attack another poster's background, religious convictions, experience, or parenting style."

I don't pass judgment on your motivations and I would appreciate you not passing judgment on mine. 

(I have no illusions, BTW, that I will achieve greatness in the world to come. 😉  Chief of sinners escaping through the flames, more like.)

I was not trying to be “sarcastic and nasty” and am not aware of other “sarcastic and nasty cracks against other people’s religious beliefs lately.” 
 

My views on this subject haven’t changed at all, so I don’t know why my posts would have. And I generally only make them known when people are using religion as an excuse to behave badly to fellow humans. Let me distill my view: You are on this earth. Certainty. You believe that you will go someplace else after you’re dead. Uncertainty. (You can say that you know with certainty that there is an afterlife, but that simply isn’t true.) Prioritize certainty. 

Provided one’s brain hasn’t been warped, I find the Golden Rule a good one

1 hour ago, maize said:

 

You call for kindness but use mocking, harsh and judgmental language yourself.

That is not how kindness spreads through the world.

 

In response to unkindness. I will always support people who are victimized, even (especially?) if that means calling out bigotry and hypocrisy. And frankly, I don’t see what I wrote as mocking, harsh, or judgmental. It’s the way I see your belief system and you don’t like it. You’re not a five year old who believes in Santa Claus, I feel no obligation to indulge you. 

Edited by bibiche
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6 minutes ago, bibiche said:

I was not trying to be “sarcastic and nasty” and am not aware of other “sarcastic and nasty cracks against other people’s religious beliefs lately.” 

"Screw religion, and screw anyone, particularly a homophobe, who would choose it over his child."

https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/710215-so-right-and-wrong-…/?tab=comments#comment-8988272

(I'm not stalking you. 😉 I could find this post easily because I responded to it and then thought better of it and deleted my post.)

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2 minutes ago, MercyA said:

 

"Screw religion, and screw anyone, particularly a homophobe, who would choose it over his child."

https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/710215-so-right-and-wrong-…/?tab=comments#comment-8988272

(I'm not stalking you. 😉 I could find this post easily because I responded to it and then thought better of it and deleted my post.)

Yep, that goes right along with what I said above and I stand by it. When you treat “the least of my brothers” badly, I’m going to criticize the construct that is making you do so. See the pattern? Don’t use religion as an excuse to treat people badly, I won’t say anything bad about your religion.  
 

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13 minutes ago, bibiche said:

 

Provided one’s brain hasn’t been warped, I find the Golden Rule a good one

In response to unkindness. I will always support people who are victimized, even (especially?) if that means calling out bigotry and hypocrisy.

Check yourself for bigotry--say, against people of faith.

Check yourself for hypocrisy--only people I personally feel sympathy for are worthy of kindness from me. Do you think that standard ought to apply to everyone, including people of faith?

It's pretty glaring in your posts.

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11 minutes ago, bibiche said:

In response to unkindness. I will always support people who are victimized, even (especially?) if that means calling out bigotry and hypocrisy.

I also support people who are victimized, and have often done so on this board, but I try to be kind while doing it. I don't comment on the influence of atheistic thought on some of those topics, even though at times those views seem very relevant.

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1 minute ago, MercyA said:

I don't comment on the influence of atheistic thought on some of those topics, even though at times those views seem very relevant.

It wouldn’t bother me if you did. 

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2 minutes ago, bibiche said:

Yep, that goes right along with what I said above and I stand by it. When you treat “the least of my brothers” badly, I’m going to criticize the construct that is making you do so. See the pattern? Don’t use religion as an excuse to treat people badly, I won’t say anything bad about your religion.  

You need to follow the board rules, regardless of your thoughts about my religion. 

I find that atheists use *their* beliefs to treat some people badly, but I don't say, "Screw them, and screw atheism." I try to keep a civil tongue in my head. 🙂 

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2 minutes ago, maize said:

Check yourself for bigotry--say, against people of faith.

Check yourself for hypocrisy--only people I personally feel sympathy for are worthy of kindness from me. Do you think that standard ought to apply to everyone, including people of faith?

It's pretty glaring in your posts.

I have no problem with people of faith as long as they don’t use their faith to batter other people. 

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5 minutes ago, maize said:

Check yourself for bigotry--say, against people of faith.

Check yourself for hypocrisy--only people I personally feel sympathy for are worthy of kindness from me. Do you think that standard ought to apply to everyone, including people of faith?

It's pretty glaring in your posts.

I agree. I think part of the disconnect is how kindness is being defined. It is not unkind to disagree with decisions people make and sometimes that will affect the relationship. Sometimes the gap between beliefs is too much to bridge. 

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42 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I agree. I think part of the disconnect is how kindness is being defined. It is not unkind to disagree with decisions people make and sometimes that will affect the relationship. Sometimes the gap between beliefs is too much to bridge. 

Quoting myself because I have a person in my life that falls into this category.  Not trans related, but my brother lives so contrary to all that I believe to be right that there is not much of a relationship.  We aren't unkind to each other (not usually--he did go nuts on me a few  months back because--you guessed it---I did not embrace his view on the virus and vaccine.) but we don't hang out together or do anything together.  We keep in touch by text and we call once in a while.  It makes me sad because I do love him.  

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In my personal view (not affected by religion, as I am agnostic) I will always call any adult by their preferred pronouns as a matter of courtesy.  For teens and children, I will not.  The teen years, according to Erik Erikson, encompass the psychosocial developmental stage of identity vs confusion.  This is when they are trying to figure out who they are, their ideas of themselves are still changing, and this time is strongly influenced by peer groups.  After age 20 or so, there is a shift away from looking to peers for guidance, and a better understanding of one's internal self.  So I do not believe it is a kindness to add to the confusion, and I do believe that using the right pronouns is a panacea that will not actually fix the true issues.  Love, compassion, support, treating the person as someone worthy and able to do worthy things with their life apart from gender imo is the best place to start.  Pronouns can come later. 

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I don’t think this has been shared here, but for one of the most fairly balanced discussions on the topic I’ve seen, this article from The Atlantic: When Children Say they’re Transgender (it’s primarily about teens, not young children as the title might sound). This is such a nuanced topic,  not nearly as black and white as those who think they are trans allies OR those who are anti-trans think it is. It’s a long piece, but I recommend the whole piece needs to be read to get the full picture. I would be interested to see an update, as even since 2018, the numbers have continued to accelerate. We really don’t have any good data on the outcomes of this cohort, because the explosion has been most dramatic in the past five years, and it will take time to see what happens with this group. Anyone who truly cares about kids and their outcomes should be more open minded about the complexities of this issue, because people are harming kids on both sides. 

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1 hour ago, bibiche said:

I have no problem with people of faith as long as they don’t use their faith to batter other people. 

But what others are trying to point out is that you are using your "faith" to batter others.  You are doing exactly what you are accusing others of in defense of what you believe is true.

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55 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

In my personal view (not affected by religion, as I am agnostic) I will always call any adult by their preferred pronouns as a matter of courtesy.  For teens and children, I will not.  The teen years, according to Erik Erikson, encompass the psychosocial developmental stage of identity vs confusion.  This is when they are trying to figure out who they are, their ideas of themselves are still changing, and this time is strongly influenced by peer groups.  After age 20 or so, there is a shift away from looking to peers for guidance, and a better understanding of one's internal self.  So I do not believe it is a kindness to add to the confusion, and I do believe that using the right pronouns is a panacea that will not actually fix the true issues.  Love, compassion, support, treating the person as someone worthy and able to do worthy things with their life apart from gender imo is the best place to start.  Pronouns can come later. 

Using preferred pronouns and name is what turned things around for my Ds though and he was 16 (he’s almost 22 now). He was off all medications for anxiety and depression within six months of us insisting everyone be respectful of his preferred name and pronouns. It was literally part of his therapy and it worked. I think it’s awful to just decide to not be part of the solution when it absolutely does help, at least some of, these kids. Fortunately for us no one of any importance refused to do the right thing on this in regards to ds. 

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40 minutes ago, freesia said:

But what others are trying to point out is that you are using your "faith" to batter others.  You are doing exactly what you are accusing others of in defense of what you believe is true.

In the same way I would yell at a bully to stop picking on someone, yes, I am. 

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

I don’t think this has been shared here, but for one of the most fairly balanced discussions on the topic I’ve seen, this article from The Atlantic: When Children Say they’re Transgender (it’s primarily about teens, not young children as the title might sound). This is such a nuanced topic,  not nearly as black and white as those who think they are trans allies OR those who are anti-trans think it is. It’s a long piece, but I recommend the whole piece needs to be read to get the full picture. I would be interested to see an update, as even since 2018, the numbers have continued to accelerate. We really don’t have any good data on the outcomes of this cohort, because the explosion has been most dramatic in the past five years, and it will take time to see what happens with this group. Anyone who truly cares about kids and their outcomes should be more open minded about the complexities of this issue, because people are harming kids on both sides. 

This is an excellent article, and I’d like to reiterate my earlier book recommendation:

 

”This is How It Always Is”

for a look at an alternative to current approaches that is where I think we will settle in the long run.  Sooner rather than later would, I think, be helpful to all concerned.

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31 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

Using preferred pronouns and name is what turned things around for my Ds though and he was 16 (he’s almost 22 now). He was off all medications for anxiety and depression within six months of us insisting everyone be respectful of his preferred name and pronouns. It was literally part of his therapy and it worked. I think it’s awful to just decide to not be part of the solution when it absolutely does help, at least some of, these kids. Fortunately for us no one of any importance refused to do the right thing on this in regards to ds. 

PLEASE DON'T QUOTE:

 

I think that I should have prefaced it with the importance of knowing the person and the situation, as all situations are very different.  I am so glad that things are turning around for your ds.  For us and our personal experience, while I had a doctor and psychologist pushing us to do the same, I felt like other methods would work.  But it is a very different child and I am sure a very different presentation. That is why I am against affirmative care.  It is a very wide net that is catching too many kids that were never dysphoric until puberty, and that have a lot of co-occuring conditions contributing to their depression. What worked for us was a huge release of expectations in other areas, LOTS of family time, more radical acceptance, more exercise, more sleep, less screen time, and an autism diagnosis. I'm not saying things are 100 percent better.  But there was so much more going on (including a huge move away from friends and of course COVID) and so this kid went to the internet and found answers that led to thinking the feeling of uncomfortableness in their body, constant anxiety, and feelings of being different than everyone else must mean they are trans.... I am just saying the net shouldn't have caught this kid, at least not until exploring other issues.  

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@SanDiegoMom One of my biggest concerns is the number of ASD kids who are saying they are trans.  I see it irl and I read an article by a woman with ASD who detransitioned.  I feel like for many of them the discomfort they feel socially can be interpreted as being trans and the acceptance they feel in the community which supports and rallies around them provides something they hadn't had before.  I fear that in 10 years we will hear the decrying of how we allowed medical experimentation on these vulnerable children.

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48 minutes ago, bibiche said:

In the same way I would yell at a bully to stop picking on someone, yes, I am. 

I only saw one person picking on, mocking, and denigrating others on this thread.

 

Do you believe that that kind of behavior will create positive change in the world?

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12 minutes ago, maize said:

I only saw one person picking on, mocking, and denigrating others on this thread.

 

Do you believe that that kind of behavior will create positive change in the world?

I already said that I disagreed with your characterization of my remarks. Let it go, at moderator request. 

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@freesia Yes, this is a big concern.  At the Tavistock clinic in England - the gender clinic for the NHS - they estimated at least 35 percent of the referrals had either autism or autistic traits.  These kids are already gender non conforming, which is absolutely fine. It's the medicalization of this that is the problem.

For us, our kid was telling their therapist that the anxiety was due to gender dyphoria. As time went on they were feeling a LOT happier, but still had anxiety.  I tracked when the anxiety would occur and talked about it with the therapist.  It was usually when routines were changed, when transitions happened, when there was something NEW that they didn't know what to expect, when they were ALONE (in person school improved everything tremendously) or when there were big academic expectations. But this kid was meeting people, making friends at school and at TKD, and there was no anxiety during those times.  It just didn't track in my mind that gender was the root of the anxiety, when all the the things seemed like autistic - centered anxiety.  The therapist agreed -- thankfully she is a generalist and is treating the whole person.  She is working on expanding the toolbox for dealing with anxiety and teaching how to connect with the body, rather than feel disassociated from it. 

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5 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

In my personal view (not affected by religion, as I am agnostic) I will always call any adult by their preferred pronouns as a matter of courtesy.  For teens and children, I will not.  The teen years, according to Erik Erikson, encompass the psychosocial developmental stage of identity vs confusion.  This is when they are trying to figure out who they are, their ideas of themselves are still changing, and this time is strongly influenced by peer groups.  After age 20 or so, there is a shift away from looking to peers for guidance, and a better understanding of one's internal self.  So I do not believe it is a kindness to add to the confusion, and I do believe that using the right pronouns is a panacea that will not actually fix the true issues.  Love, compassion, support, treating the person as someone worthy and able to do worthy things with their life apart from gender imo is the best place to start.  Pronouns can come later. 

This. 

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I saw this post yesterday but didn’t have time to respond. And now...I don’t want to wade through all the responses. So responding just to @Quill OP....I had a very similar situation in our family. Our nephew told the family when he was in college that he identified as a man. He went on to have top surgery and has now also done hormone therapy. He has also married a woman. It was not easy for everyone in the family and I think the best thing was for people to be honest about it and loving. I’m not saying a “love the sinner  hate the sin” kind of attitude but just an acknowledgment that it is hard. Even if the person has known this about themselves their whole life, that doesn’t mean other people have and won’t find it difficult to adjust. Our nephew was at a women’s college when he let us know he was trans and he was the flower girl in our wedding. Family photo albums all have photos of him as girl. We had to explain that to our kids when they were quite young. (he transitioned about 10 years ago).  I’m not at all saying that the difficulties for the relatives are equivalent to or as important as the feelings/struggles of the person...but I also think it’s a mistake when people act like you should just say “oh, ok, great, I accept you” and ignore that you might have feelings or that you are a bad person for feeling grief for the loss of the person you knew. 

The honest but loving kind of responses we saw...my husband basically said “I don’t really know much about all of this but I know I’m your uncle and I love you.” We made mistakes in pronouns all the time for the first few years. He was very understanding about that. My SIL (not his mom but dh’s other sister) is very religious (as are my husband and I) and felt strongly against him having the top surgery. She is also a doctor and I think felt similarly that it was just wrong to do to a healthy body. In their family, there is a culture of her giving medical advice and she actually told him that she was opposed which caused a rift between them but then she also volunteered to care for him after the surgery, using her medical expertise. She did that and he later said that it was a very tangible way that she showed him love especially when he knew she didn’t agree with the surgery. 

So,I’d say, it’s ok to feel grief. Only you know the individual and how honest you can be with them. Our situation was different in that our nephew was older. But I’d say find someone that you can be honest with and talk about it. Let yourself feel grief and confusion and also all the love I’m sure you have for this person in your life. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. 

 

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6 hours ago, bibiche said:

I was not trying to be “sarcastic and nasty” and am not aware of other “sarcastic and nasty cracks against other people’s religious beliefs lately.” 
 

My views on this subject haven’t changed at all, so I don’t know why my posts would have. And I generally only make them known when people are using religion as an excuse to behave badly to fellow humans. Let me distill my view: You are on this earth. Certainty. You believe that you will go someplace else after you’re dead. Uncertainty. (You can say that you know with certainty that there is an afterlife, but that simply isn’t true.) Prioritize certainty. 

Provided one’s brain hasn’t been warped, I find the Golden Rule a good one

In response to unkindness. I will always support people who are victimized, even (especially?) if that means calling out bigotry and hypocrisy. And frankly, I don’t see what I wrote as mocking, harsh, or judgmental. It’s the way I see your belief system and you don’t like it. You’re not a five year old who believes in Santa Claus, I feel no obligation to indulge you. 

I'm not religious, and my brain hasn't been 'warped'.

Teens and young adults arent victimized by a supportive, cautious, option-preserving approach.

You may have missed a recent thread where I explained that even my kid's pediatric gender clinic IS CHANGING APPROACH from affirmation to watchful waiting + psychotherapy.

Because the majority of this new cohort (with dysphoria not present in childhood and often appearing post-puberty) desist.

How kind and open minded is it to automatically set a teen or young person on a medical and surgical pathway that is irreversible, which they may not have otherwise needed? Not very. Even kids with a classic presentation - most of them grow up to be gay cis adults, or GNC cis adults. 

I'm unsure why religion is getting dragged into the conversation. Plenty of secular, left wing parents with concerns. My kid's gender clinic isn't run by nuns. It's lazy stereotyping to assume that any caution MUST be coming from religious bigotry. 

Nobody here is bullying Quill's relative, least of all Quill. Back down. You're not supporting all trans teens by bitching about people's religion. 

 

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5 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

In my personal view (not affected by religion, as I am agnostic) I will always call any adult by their preferred pronouns as a matter of courtesy.  For teens and children, I will not. 

How does this look for other people’s children though, if the parents are asking people to use different pronouns? I can’t see any way that helps  and seems it would only drive a wedge in the relationship. It’s different if the parent themself is making a decision not to change pronouns with their minor child, but I don’t see any benefit to people outside the family refusing to use them if that is what the family has decided. They’re not going to change their mind based on their aunt not using their preferred pronouns, know what I mean? Now, on the other hand, I feel strongly everyone involved should have a lot of grace for pronoun slip ups. It’s not easy to change such a long ingrained habit, no matter how frequently people gaslight you that it’s super easy and you wouldn’t make mistakes if you really accepted them and that it’s an unforgivable sin if you accidentally say the one you have used with them since they were born.  I’m fortunate most of the trans kids in my life are reasonably easy-going about this, even if it bothers them.

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25 minutes ago, KSera said:

How does this look for other people’s children though, if the parents are asking people to use different pronouns? I can’t see any way that helps  and seems it would only drive a wedge in the relationship. It’s different if the parent themself is making a decision not to change pronouns with their minor child, but I don’t see any benefit to people outside the family refusing to use them if that is what the family has decided. They’re not going to change their mind based on their aunt not using their preferred pronouns, know what I mean? Now, on the other hand, I feel strongly everyone involved should have a lot of grace for pronoun slip ups. It’s not easy to change such a long ingrained habit, no matter how frequently people gaslight you that it’s super easy and you wouldn’t make mistakes if you really accepted them and that it’s an unforgivable sin if you accidentally say the one you have used with them since they were born.  I’m fortunate most of the trans kids in my life are reasonably easy-going about this, even if it bothers them.

In theory, I don't believe in reinforcing s cross sex identity in children or teens through use of opposite sex pronouns - in practice, it depends. 

I've had a student using opposite sex pronouns (private class, not at school). I used the pronouns mum referred to them with (their chosen pronouns/name). So, compliance. 

I've stepped away from a close friendship where the teen's transition and associated demands re speech were impossible to meet. So, avoidance. 

With my own kids, when they were extremely dysphoric, I used gender neutral terms, including pronouns. So, compromise - not reinforcing, but not confronting. 

I can imagine situations where I use the child's name in lieu of pronouns. 

A mum.of a NB kid seeking support  for herself as her kid had a double mastectomy - no issue using they/them. 

I don't believe misgendering is violence. I don't really believe in a thing called gender. But I do believe in treating kids (and their mums) around me in a way that doesn't scream 'what a d*ck'. So IRL, I just do my best to balance my needs and theirs. 

ETA my actual hard line doesn't have anything to do with the vast majority of trans people, but with compulsion in a court of law, and in collection of crime data. 

Edited by Melissa Louise
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10 minutes ago, KSera said:

How does this look for other people’s children though, if the parents are asking people to use different pronouns? I can’t see any way that helps  and seems it would only drive a wedge in the relationship. It’s different if the parent themself is making a decision not to change pronouns with their minor child, but I don’t see any benefit to people outside the family refusing to use them if that is what the family has decided. They’re not going to change their mind based on their aunt not using their preferred pronouns, know what I mean? Now, on the other hand, I feel strongly everyone involved should have a lot of grace for pronoun slip ups. It’s not easy to change such a long ingrained habit, no matter how frequently people gaslight you that it’s super easy and you wouldn’t make mistakes if you really accepted them and that it’s an unforgivable sin if you accidentally say the one you have used with them since they were born.  I’m fortunate most of the trans kids in my life are reasonably easy-going about this, even if it bothers them.

Yes to that. 

My sister’s relationship to our parents is extremely curt due to this topic. My parents, as profoundly religious people, have not been accepting, though it was covert, not overt. Still obvious, though. And, as I said, I had a long thread on here a couple years ago when they couldn’t/didn’t attend my niece’s wedding. Sister and mom really had it out on the phone. 

So. I mean...where does that leave me as the aunt? It was certainly no picnic when kiddo “came out”; we were all in a homeschool playgroup and I surmise one of my friends put an end to it literally because of my nephew. She quit coming and then moved back to the safety of a less liberal area where playgroup friends probably aren’t changing their names to guy names and saying they are guys now. 

Anyway, I don’t care if they asked me to call the kid FireLightUnicorn, I would have done it. I just simply cannot deny someone I love - hell, even a virtual stranger - this basic courtesy of using the name they request and the pronouns they desire. If it were my own child, perhaps I would make a different choice, but someone else I know and love, I’m just going to go with it. 

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8 hours ago, bibiche said:

Yep, that goes right along with what I said above and I stand by it. When you treat “the least of my brothers” badly, I’m going to criticize the construct that is making you do so. See the pattern? Don’t use religion as an excuse to treat people badly, I won’t say anything bad about your religion.  
 

Badly does not = didn't immediately subsume my own understanding and experience of the world to that of a struggling teenager's.

Badly does not = worry about a drastic and permanent solution to a nebulous and undefined problem.

Badly does not = asking probing questions, especially when the answers have been circular, nonsensical, unscientific and highly emotive.

None of that comes from religious beliefs. In fact, the ferver to characterize the above as nastiness, and rely on indiviual anecdotes strikes me as much closer to extremist religious behaviour. I mean that with genuine concern, not snark. Since we're being honest.

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2 minutes ago, LMD said:

Badly does not = didn't immediately subsume my own understanding and experience of the world to that of a struggling teenager's.

Badly does not = worry about a drastic and permanent solution to a nebulous and undefined problem.

Badly does not = asking probing questions, especially when the answers have been circular, nonsensical, unscientific and highly emotive.

None of that comes from religious beliefs. In fact, the ferver to characterize the above as nastiness, and rely on indiviual anecdotes strikes me as much closer to extremist religious behaviour. I mean that with genuine concern, not snark. Since we're being honest.

Just FYI, the poster is respecting mod requests and not responding further re her thoughts on religious bigotry driving transphobia. Which is fair enough. 

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On 6/17/2021 at 1:28 PM, Lecka said:

His friend had a crew cut in high school!  

That's not super relevant, though. My daughter had a crew cut in high school. 

 

On 6/17/2021 at 7:06 PM, Catwoman said:

I know I will probably get a lot of pushback for saying this, but I think it is ridiculous to consider any 2 year-old to be transgender, and for parents to treat a toddler as being the opposite gender of their biological sex seems incredibly presumptive — and unhealthy for the child

Musing: What does it look like to treat a two-year-old as the opposite gender of their biological sex? For that matter, what does it look like to treat a two-year-old as their biological sex? Is it okay to let a natal male grow out long curls and wear a dress, but not okay to let them refer to themselves as a girl? Is it okay (or best) to allow them to refer themselves as a girl, but not okay (or not best) to do it yourself? Again, musing, because the part I bolded really struck me: what does it even mean to treat a toddler as a certain gender? A baby? 

22 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

@freesia Yes, this is a big concern.  At the Tavistock clinic in England - the gender clinic for the NHS - they estimated at least 35 percent of the referrals had either autism or autistic traits. 

"Autistic traits" is a mighty big umbrella, though. Everyone in my household has autistic traits. How do they define it? 

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The crew cut was relevant to my husband having no idea and being very surprised.  On our side — my husband has mentioned it.  It is not a situation where his friend was allowed to do whatever he wanted, as far as I know.  

Part of me wonders if his parents put them into this private school to try to avoid the whole thing, I don’t know.  It could have just been coincidence.  
 

 

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2 hours ago, katilac said:

That's not super relevant, though. My daughter had a crew cut in high school. 

 

Musing: What does it look like to treat a two-year-old as the opposite gender of their biological sex? For that matter, what does it look like to treat a two-year-old as their biological sex? Is it okay to let a natal male grow out long curls and wear a dress, but not okay to let them refer to themselves as a girl? Is it okay (or best) to allow them to refer themselves as a girl, but not okay (or not best) to do it yourself? Again, musing, because the part I bolded really struck me: what does it even mean to treat a toddler as a certain gender? A baby? 

"Autistic traits" is a mighty big umbrella, though. Everyone in my household has autistic traits. How do they define it? 

Here is the study linked which quotes the 35 percent: https://adc.bmj.com/content/103/7/631.full?ijkey=HsMwyZDRtsKu83z&keytype=ref

And here is a paper which quotes up to 48 percent: https://www.icf-consultations.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Taking-the-lid-off-the-box.pdf  They use the "Social Responsiveness Scale (SRS):  a 65-item quantitative measure of autistic features in 4- to 18-year-olds across a range of severity. It is filled in by parents/carers as part of the psychosocial assessment. It is a validated measure and has been deemed appropriate for use in clinical settings and scores in the severe range are strongly associated with a clinical diagnosis of an ASC (e.g. Constantino et al., 2003). SRS results are provided here for those young people who did not have an ASC diagnosis."  This paper says 48 percent scored mild to severe, and the first one was 35 percent as moderate to severe.  

 

If you look up Keira Bell Vs Tavistock, this was case where a detransitioner sued the clinic and won for their lack of safeguarding and rushing towards hormonal intervention too quickly.  There was an additional claimant: Mrs A, who was the mother of an autistic child who similarly raised concerns and was not heeded.  The clinic has had massive turnover prior to this case due to the feeling within the clinic that the affirmative approach was too fast and not catching the other confounding issues that teens were presenting with, the biggest one autism.  35 clinicians resigned over the past couple of years.  I think the US will be seeing similar lawsuits coming. 

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