Calling all summer campers...

[Sneezyone]

My ‘little’ is going away for a two week camp—no tech, no cabins, pure camping/hiking. We’ve never sent a child to sleep away camp (DH and I are only occasional passers by the great outdoors) and it’s hard to know what (or whether) something optional is really essential, or if something required can/should be upsized or downsized (like bug spray). There was no sunblock on the list but I bought DS a small, natural sunblock stick (looks like mini deodorant) anyway, etc.

Any tips from experienced campers? I bought moisture sucking everything and closed toe sandals and shoes, lol. That’s as far as I’ve gotten.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Insertcreativenamehere]

So tent camping? Will they be staying in one location or backpacking from one location to the next? 

[Carol in Cal.]

Get all the optional stuff—chances are it’s important for comfort.

Also, have the discussions about staying hydrated, and being in charge of yourself without anyone to necessarily remind you how.  Look into what hazards are present and preview how to deal with them—rattlesnakes?  Ticks?  Bears?  What?

Try to find out about the menus, enough to know whether your kids are going to have trouble with one or more of the meals daily.  The first time DD went to sleep away camp I checked on that and told her, look, you are going to have a bit of difficulty finding something you really like at some lunches and most dinners so you’d better eat heavily at breakfast and think creatively about how to deconstruct your lunch and dinner choices so that you like them.  (it was one of those places that still served a lot of 70s food, which she was not accustomed to—one dish meals all slopped together.) 

[HomeAgain]

DS goes to sleep away camp.  It's actually within a short walk from the house, but we pretend it's farther away. 😄

We learned a few things his first year:

• -pack 2 swimsuits, 3 towels.  We pack one style of towel for showers and two thin, quick dry towels for swimming.
• -label EVERYTHING.  It's not going to make sure it gets back, but at least you know who the moldy suit belongs to when you find it in the lost and found the following year.
• -if you want letters, pre-address and stamp the envelopes.  You can recycle them back into the kit the next year when they come back unused.
• -pack a head lamp.  It has a strap, so it hangs from the shower hook.  It leaves hands free traveling to the restrooms and back at night
• -space is a premium.  Within the perfectly organized bag that fits under the bunk I pack a large laundry bag.  It's huge.  Nothing will be organized in the cabin, so throwing clothes in that helps.  I also pack a folding cube.  Each kid has a shelf, just big enough for a few small things.  The cube is a place to keep his shower gear, book, head lamp, etc. and maximize the space.
• -if your camp has a virtual open house, you should watch it.  Ours goes through the cabins, the trails, and the various activities.  We have a good idea of what to expect climate-wise.  I send two cans of sunscreen because they're easier for ds to apply, and they will get shared.
• -there's usually a recommended amount for the camp store/incidentals account. After the first year, we found their number was a bit high.  Ds didn't want to do art (no buying art kits), and he only needed a water bottle from the store.
• -You can send a care package.  I sent one the day after dropping him off with things like: waterproof cards, some balls and other group toys, extra bug spray and some fun stuff for the cabin (they decorate for a big end of camp gathering)

We're still feeling this out, too.  Camp is different this year (mandatory covid testing, cohorts, no large gatherings) so I'm not sure what to expect now.

 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Insertcreativenamehere said:

So tent camping? Will they be staying in one location or backpacking from one location to the next? 

They will be backpacking and pitching tents as they go along.

[Insertcreativenamehere]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

They will be backpacking and pitching tents as they go along.

Go as light as possible on EVERYTHING! My DH started out backpacking with a big sleeping bag and big backpack and very quickly realized that he needed to minimize the amount that everything weighed. He bought a lighter sleeping bag, a lighter backpack, lighter cookset, etc. He even cut his toothbrush in half. You don't have to go that extreme, but try to minimize how much he'll be carrying. It'll make a big difference! 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Insertcreativenamehere

[HomeAgain]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

They will be backpacking and pitching tents as they go along.

Oh, that's a horse of a different color!

Oldest ds benefited from a lot of our shopping at Decathlon, which has a store in the states now.  We got him a packable sleeping bag (it's the size of a personal watermelon), a hammock, and an inflatable mat. His backpacking gear fits in about half of a dorm room sized trunk, though we didn't add the chair in that.

Here's a link to the towels we have.  You might like browsing the rest of the site.

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

They will be backpacking and pitching tents as they go along.

In that case, the most important item will be comfortable hiking shoes. Take a pair of light sandals that can be worn in water for camp, river crossings, wading.

Go light. Light sleeping bag, light sleeping pad that packs small (there are now great inflatables), light backpack. I assume camp is providing tents/cookware/food/water purification/1st aid? Or does he need personal gear for this?

I recommend you treat pants with permethrin against ticks. Lasts for six weeks.

Edited June 14, 2021 by regentrude

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, regentrude said:

In that case, the most important item will be comfortable hiking shoes. Take a pair of light sandals that can be worn in water for camp, river crossings, wading.

Go light. Light sleeping bag, light sleeping pad that packs small (there are now great inflatables), light backpack. I assume camp is providing tents/cookware/food/water purification/1st aid? Or does he need personal gear for this?

I recommend you treat pants with permethrin against ticks. Lasts for six weeks.

The camp is providing most of the gear, yes, including the backpacks. The kids have to pack them when they arrive. I will look for this pants treatment. His clothing gear is arriving (courtesy of Amazon, lol) this week.

[Sneezyone]

23 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Oh, that's a horse of a different color!

Oldest ds benefited from a lot of our shopping at Decathlon, which has a store in the states now.  We got him a packable sleeping bag (it's the size of a personal watermelon), a hammock, and an inflatable mat. His backpacking gear fits in about half of a dorm room sized trunk, though we didn't add the chair in that.

Here's a link to the towels we have.  You might like browsing the rest of the site.

These towels look great. I think DH uses something similar on the ship. They recommended one towel and one bandana for bathing. I swear my son is gonna be a filthy, stinky, hairy beast. They do have us send a change of clothes with proper toiletries for pick up day. Lol.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[regentrude]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

The camp is providing most of the gear, yes, including the backpacks. The kids have to pack them when they arrive. I will look for this pants treatment. His clothing gear is arriving (courtesy of Amazon, lol) this week.

Good, so all he needs is clothes?

I recommend lightweight nylon hiking pants with zippable pant legs so you can covert them to shorts. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Good, so all he needs is clothes?

I recommend lightweight nylon hiking pants with zippable pant legs so you can covert them to shorts. 

Yes, clothes and shoes (including rain gear), toiletries, a head lamp with batteries, that sort of thing. They won’t be writing letters but I did get a small (3x5) journal with thick paper (so it doesn’t disintegrate) so he can record things. I got one pair of nylon pants like you describe and one thicker poly/spandex blend for cooler weather.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Yes, clothes and shoes (including rain gear), toiletries, a head lamp with batteries, that sort of thing. They won’t be writing letters but I did get a small (3x5) journal with thick paper (so it doesn’t disintegrate) so he can record things. I got one pair of nylon pants like you describe and one thicker poly/spandex blend for cooler weather.

where are they going for "cooler weather"? I want to be there, LOL.
FWIW, the nylon pants serve me comfortably down to about 35. If it's below 32, I'll wear leggings underneath.
 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

where are they going for "cooler weather"? I want to be there, LOL.
FWIW, the nylon pants serve me comfortably down to about 35. If it's below 32, I'll wear leggings underneath.
 

Good point. They’re going to be in a state/national park for the duration. I’m told there are mountains there. I did get thin long Johns so maybe I can ditch the thicker pants and get one more of the other kind. 🤣 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[regentrude]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Good point. They’re going to be in a state/national park for the duration. I’m told there are mountains there. 🤣 

where? You can pm me if you don't want to say in public

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

where? You can pm me if you don't want to say in public

Sent you a PM.

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

My ‘little’ is going away for a two week camp—no tech, no cabins, pure camping/hiking. We’ve never sent a child to sleep away camp (DH and I are only occasional passers by the great outdoors) and it’s hard to know what (or whether) something optional is really essential, or if something required can/should be upsized or downsized (like bug spray). There was no sunblock on the list but I bought DS a small, natural sunblock stick (looks like mini deodorant) anyway, etc.

Any tips from experienced campers? I bought moisture sucking everything and closed toe sandals and shoes, lol. That’s as far as I’ve gotten.

NEvermind. This isn't for backpacking.

Edited June 14, 2021 by vonfirmath

[HomeAgain]

27 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

These towels look great. I think DH uses something similar on the ship. They recommended one towel and one bandana for bathing. I swear my son is gonna be a filthy, stinky, hairy beast. They do have us send a change of clothes with proper toiletries for pick up day. Lol.

With ten years of sending kids off to various camps, the underwear always comes back perfectly folded. 🤣

 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, HomeAgain said:

With ten years of sending kids off to various camps, the underwear always comes back perfectly folded. 🤣

 

Noooooooo!!!!!!!

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

With ten years of sending kids off to various camps, the underwear always comes back perfectly folded. 🤣

 

I even bought moisture-wicking, breathable mesh undies!! (Clearanced and needed anyway). Kids are gross. I was skeptical about the single wet wipes pack but this explains so much. 🤭

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[City Mouse]

42 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

They recommended one towel and one bandana for bathing. I swear my son is gonna be a filthy, stinky, hairy beast. 

Yes he will! I live very close to a large BSA high adventure camp where 12 day backpacking trips are the norm. Most kids wear the same clothes the entire trip (maybe 1-2 days worth), and bathing is playing in the rivers with possibly a cold water shower on the trail. It is quite easy to smell the campers who have just come ff the trail. 😀

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

Yes he will! I live very close to a large BSA high adventure camp where 12 day backpacking trips are the norm. Most kids wear the same clothes the entire trip (maybe 1-2 days worth), and bathing is playing in the rivers with possibly a cold water shower on the trail. It is quite easy to smell the campers who have just come ff the trail. 😀

🤮

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, City Mouse said:

Yes he will! I live very close to a large BSA high adventure camp where 12 day backpacking trips are the norm. Most kids wear the same clothes the entire trip (maybe 1-2 days worth), and bathing is playing in the rivers with possibly a cold water shower on the trail. It is quite easy to smell the campers who have just come ff the trail. 😀

Of course. Carrying multiple changes of clothing isn't really a priority when you have to lug everything on your back. One shirt to wear, one shirt to change. The dirty one gets soaked in the river and dries on the backpack to be the change shirt the next time.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, regentrude said:

Of course. Carrying multiple changes of clothing isn't really a priority when you have to lug everything on your back. One shirt to wear, one shirt to change. The dirty one gets soaked in the river and dries on the backpack to be the change shirt the next time.

They will be in/out of a river for swimming, kayaking and ‘bathing’. The camp provides a special soap and teaches them how to leave a small footprint.

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

They will be in/out of a river for swimming, kayaking and ‘bathing’. The camp provides a special soap and teaches them how to leave a small footprint.

Sounds great. That actually will make a huge difference in the cleanliness department! (I have backpacked in the desert and in areas with running streams and know the comparison). 

[Acadie]

Echoing a couple ideas already mentioned--

This is the permethrin spray we bought to treat dd's pants, socks and shirts. You spray everything down and let it dry in the sun, and it lasts through several washes. Now that we know she's a huge hiking/camping enthusiast we bought her some treated clothing from Insect Shield, and sent a few things she already had to them for treatment. This helps with mosquitos and ticks. She's in college in Maine so definite Lyme endemic area, and prevention efforts are well worth it. Ds should know how to do a tick check, too.

https://www.amazon.com/Sawyer-Products-SP657-Permethrin-Repellent/dp/B001ANQVYU/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=permethrin&qid=1623705835&sr=8-5

I also send this spray, in case the bugs are really bad. 

https://www.amazon.com/Sawyer-Products-SP564-Repellent-Picaridin/dp/B07BSN5YLN?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1

Last but not least, my girls always carry sunblock into the woods and to track meets and it gets borrowed a lot. Might need more than a small stick.

Probably a wide-brimmed sun hat is on the list, especially if they will be on the water.  

I hope he has a fabulous time! Dd always comes back so happy and blissed out from her wilderness adventures. 

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Acadie

[theelfqueen]

So much more sunscreen. So much. 

[theelfqueen]

If they're backpacking try to keep things to a tight minimum- weight is super important. Pack some stuff in ziploc bags. Ziploc bags are useful for 50 unexpected things. Umm are they bringing thier own backpacking gear? Do you need camp stoves and tent recommendations?

Spend the money on a GOOD backpacking weight sleeping pad! 

Lots of philmont background here. 

They will ALL be sweaty smelly and dirty. The end. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by theelfqueen

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Acadie said:

Echoing a couple ideas already mentioned--

This is the permethrin spray we bought to treat dd's pants, socks and shirts. You spray everything down and let it dry in the sun, and it lasts through several washes. Now that we know she's a huge hiking/camping enthusiast we bought her some treated clothing from Insect Shield, and sent a few things she already had to them for treatment. This helps with mosquitos and ticks. She's in college in Maine so definite Lyme endemic area, and prevention efforts are well worth it. Ds should know how to do a tick check, too.

https://www.amazon.com/Sawyer-Products-SP657-Permethrin-Repellent/dp/B001ANQVYU/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=permethrin&qid=1623705835&sr=8-5

I also send this spray, in case the bugs are really bad. 

https://www.amazon.com/Sawyer-Products-SP564-Repellent-Picaridin/dp/B07BSN5YLN?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1

Last but not least, my girls always carry sunblock into the woods and to track meets and it gets borrowed a lot. Might need more than a small stick.

Probably a wide-brimmed sun hat is on the list, especially if they will be on the water.  

I hope he has a fabulous time! Dd always comes back so happy and blissed out from her wilderness adventures. 

 

Yes, he is bringing a hat. He needs glasses but his darken in the sun so I figure that’s good enough for eyewear. I will find this promo.:2&:?482’e stuff and spray the heck out his gear 😂. The picardin-based spray is what I bought. I saw the strictly organic stuff but it was wipe on only and only lasts 2hrs (!!) DS agreed deet-free was sufficient. I really hope he has a blast. I’m sure he will. I’m excited for him.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, theelfqueen said:

If they're backpacking try to keep things to a tight minimum- weight is super important. Pack some stuff in ziploc bags. Ziploc bags are useful for 50 unexpected things. Umm are they bringing thier own backpacking gear? Do you need camp stoves and tent recommendations?

Spend the money on a GOOD backpacking weight sleeping pad! 

Lots of philmont background here. 

They will ALL be sweaty smelly and dirty. The end. 

Fortunately, no, we don’t have to buy major gear, just the clothes and incidentals. I am really hoping he’s gonna be physically challenged, engaged, worn out, and ready to start school again in the fall.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Acadie]

35 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I am really hoping he’s gonna be physically challenged, engaged, worn out, and ready to start school again in the fall.

That's what happens with my kid. Tons of energy, super bright, hard to find the right challenge but wilderness does it, and she returns ready to settle in.

She's the reason we started homeschooling, because regular school didn't work for her. With deep wilderness adventure a few times a year and a reasonable amount of independent choice she can do *anything* to which she sets her mind! 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Acadie said:

That's what happens with my kid. Tons of energy, super bright, hard to find the right challenge but wilderness does it, and she returns ready to settle in.

She's the reason we started homeschooling, because regular school didn't work for her. With deep wilderness adventure a few times a year and a reasonable amount of independent choice she can do *anything* to which she sets her mind! 

LOVE THIS!

[LucyStoner]

If you buy any new shoes have them wear them enough before camp to break them in.  Especially the ones they will be wearing when hiking. 

I used to go on backpacking trips with other teens and young people and there was always someone who bought themselves a brand spanking new pair of hiking boots and ended up pretty miserable because you don’t want to be hiking long distances in a stiff pair of brand new boots.  Given that I used the same pair of often resoled hiking boots until I was well into adulthood, I was fortunately never one of those poor souls.  

Pack an old pair of lightweight shoes for around camp so they have something to run around in when they have pitched their tent for the night.  Most camp programs will have strict rules that the kids have to wear shoes or sandals and it’s nice to be able to take a break from your hiking boots.  

 

[LucyStoner]

20 hours ago, City Mouse said:

Yes he will! I live very close to a large BSA high adventure camp where 12 day backpacking trips are the norm. Most kids wear the same clothes the entire trip (maybe 1-2 days worth), and bathing is playing in the rivers with possibly a cold water shower on the trail. It is quite easy to smell the campers who have just come ff the trail. 😀

My son came home from camp one year with with his nose completely burned and all of his underwear still neatly folded in that ziplock.  I asked him why he didn’t use his sunscreen and the rapscallion claimed that he didn’t know he had any with him.  Dude, I had showed him every thing that had been packed and given him two copies of the packing list so he’d know what was in there.  Ever after, that guy has to pack his own bag for camp.  
 

[LucyStoner]

My sons are both going to canoe trip camps this summer.  They paddle around and set up camp a different spot each night.  I’m excited that they will be off the grid for 6-10 days (middle schooler camp is shorter than high schooler camp).   

[Sneezyone]

28 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

My sons are both going to canoe trip camps this summer.  They paddle around and set up camp a different spot each night.  I’m excited that they will be off the grid for 6-10 days (middle schooler camp is shorter than high schooler camp).   

I know my DS needs the reset. It’s been a long COVID and we were really good about isolating, DS especially so. I’ve been sending him on bike trips to the store with increasing regularity. It costs me $2 in candy but that’s cheaper than instacart. 😂

Edited June 15, 2021 by Sneezyone

[itsheresomewhere]

21 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

With ten years of sending kids off to various camps, the underwear always comes back perfectly folded. 🤣

 

And the deodorant might come back still with the foil seal on…

 

Badger makes a wonderful sunscreen with bug repellent.  Worth every penny when we hike. They also have a small solid stick bug repellent. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by itsheresomewhere

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

And the deodorant might come back still with the foil seal on…

 

Badger makes a wonderful sunscreen with bug repellent.  Worth every penny when we hike. They also have a small solid stick bug repellent. 

I have a ‘natural’ deodorant that it sounds like he won’t use, but I’ll look into this badger stuff. I’ve tried to impress upon him that heat and moisture are breeding grounds for fungus and infection but I don’t think he’s listening. 🤣

[LifeLovePassion]

Quick dry microfiber towel

Lightweight flip flops for around camp

Darn Tough wool socks (2 pair, alternate each day) I would emphasize this as being as important/more important than the clean underwear. Try to avoid blisters. 

We each have an aluminum cup and a lightweight spoon that we use for all meals/hot drinks

Water Bottle

Battery Pack to recharge a phone if he is leaving it in airplane mode and using it only for pictures, you should be able to make that timeframe (assuming it is allowed)

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

Yes. One of mine has been on this trip. Minimal clothing. Long sleeves that can provide sun protection but be zipped off to shorter lengths. Depending on attitude/overnight temps, long Johns for sleeping in. 
 

And like Samwise says, a little bit of rope never hurt!

OP perhaps you have access to a military supply outlet where you can find some things economically?

(and please forgive my multiple likely redundant answers, I’m answering as I read through) 

No worries! I got him a lightweight bucket hat and swapped for two zipper version pants, three more shorts. He has three or four, I can’t remember, poly shirts and one long sleeve, one fleece, long Johns, 5 pairs of moisture-wicking undies, two travel size bottles of bug spray, one sunblock stick, gold bond, hand wipes, head lamp, a clean change of clothes and various surface washes for pick up day. My nose is very sensitive. He’s not getting in my car without being thoroughly sanitized. I’ve ordered the permethrin (sp) and scheduled his physical, got the shot records, phew!! So far...no rope, lol. The carabiner might be a good idea for his sandals.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

You sound well prepared! Can’t wait to hear how he enjoyed it. 
 

But seriously- you may need a scented hanky for the ride home even if you don’t want it. 😂

The camp people called me today and helped out with some tips too. She said one of the most often purchased items at the camp store is a low chair that they can use around the campfire.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

The camp people called me today and helped out with some tips too. She said one of the most often purchased items at the camp store is a low chair that they can use around the campfire.

which they lug around while backpacking???

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

which they lug around while backpacking???

That’s what she said! 

[HomeAgain]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

which they lug around while backpacking???

Some of them fold up pretty small!  Take a look at this ultralight camp chair.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Some of them fold up pretty small!  Take a look at this ultralight camp chair.

Yes, I think it’s something like this. She said I can check it out and buy at drop off so DS doesn’t spend his snack money on it. DS is also a sugar fiend so I asked about snack availability. Apparently, they bring a mobile version of the store out so the boys can restock and, much to her chagrin, sweets are among the offerings. Lol.

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Some of them fold up pretty small!  Take a look at this ultralight camp chair.

It's the weight - that's an additional two pounds. That is a full Nalgene. Or an extra two days of food. 
They must not make them carry enough stuff 🙂

(Folks spend hundreds of dollars to shave that much weight off the essential gear)

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by regentrude

[HomeAgain]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

It's the weight - that's an additional two pounds. That is a full Nalgene. Or an extra day of food. 
They must not make them carry enough stuff.

 

There are smaller ones that are about 1.5lbs.

To be fair, I can do two weeks in winter with a 75lb pack, and that includes about a week's worth of packed food (counting 3000 calories per day).  A summer pack is more like 45-50lbs total, and that's easily doable even with long hikes each day.  There's room for an extra 2lbs, though it might be strapped to the outside of the pack.

The gear my own kid has is everything I wished I had available to me 20 years ago, instead of carrying a sleeping bag that was more than twice the weight and bulk for the same rating or a heavier tent.

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

To be fair, I can do two weeks in winter with a 75lb pack, and that includes about a week's worth of packed food (counting 3000 calories per day).  A summer pack is more like 45-50lbs total, and that's easily doable even with long hikes each day.  There's room for an extra 2lbs, though it might be strapped to the outside of the pack.

I am too old and so over heavy packs. I just don't want to anymore. For the 5000 vertical feet out of the Grand Canyon this spring, I really would not have wanted the extra 2 lbs. I'm all for bare necessities plus a little margin on the food.

Edited June 15, 2021 by regentrude

[LifeLovePassion]

We love our chairs from REI. They now make an ultra light version too. It folds up to be the size of a quart nalgene bottle.

[Sneezyone]

18 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

I wonder if they are carrying their own food?

I have a very small camp chair that I take when doing bird counts. It is small but not light. 
 

FWIW, ds got his Philmont full pack down to about 26#, iirc, with a lot of thought and trail tricks. They carried everything - their clothes, food, cooking supplies, sleeping bag, sleep mat, and each tent broken down and parts distributed to the two guys sharing each tent. They did stop halfway for food, and there was water along the trail in spots (but each needed to start the day with full containers).

I’m not sure what else they’re going to carry. The camp provides the bulk of the cooking, tent, sleeping gear and the backpacks themselves.