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Mom in Va. who lived through Cultural Revolution addresses school board regarding Critical Race Theory


Fritz
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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

In a particular classroom that was done. But all aspects of CRT, including that institutional racism exists or has ever existed, are being banned. My entire state has done so. 

It was more than one classroom, it was a mandatory course for all seniors at that charter school. It's not the only one I've seen so far that sets it up this way. 

One of the possible reasons CRT along with anything like looks remotely like CRT is being banned in states is because the education system has decided to pit themselves against parents. 

Just as homeschoolers show up en masse when a bill effects them, parents of public, private and charter school kids are doing the same. 

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*I’m so sure* some will correct me, LOL

but I do have to question how posters are saying there is no connection between CRT and Marxism.

Marxism led to critical theory which led to CRT?

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/

Critical Theory has a narrow and a broad meaning in philosophy and in the history of the social sciences. “Critical Theory” in the narrow sense designates several generations of German philosophers and social theorists in the Western European Marxist tradition known as the Frankfurt School. According to these theorists, a “critical” theory may be distinguished from a “traditional” theory according to a specific practical purpose: a theory is critical to the extent that it seeks human “emancipation from slavery”, acts as a “liberating … influence”, and works “to create a world which satisfies the needs and powers of” human beings (Horkheimer 1972b [1992, 246]). Because such theories aim to explain and transform all the circumstances that enslave human beings, many “critical theories” in the broader sense have been developed. They have emerged in connection with the many social movements that identify varied dimensions of the domination of human beings in modern societies. In both the broad and the narrow senses, however, a critical theory provides the descriptive and normative bases for social inquiry aimed at decreasing domination and increasing freedom in all their forms.”

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3 minutes ago, pinball said:

*I’m so sure* some will correct me, LOL

but I do have to question how posters are saying there is no connection between CRT and Marxism.

Marxism led to critical theory which led to CRT?

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/

Critical Theory has a narrow and a broad meaning in philosophy and in the history of the social sciences. “Critical Theory” in the narrow sense designates several generations of German philosophers and social theorists in the Western European Marxist tradition known as the Frankfurt School. According to these theorists, a “critical” theory may be distinguished from a “traditional” theory according to a specific practical purpose: a theory is critical to the extent that it seeks human “emancipation from slavery”, acts as a “liberating … influence”, and works “to create a world which satisfies the needs and powers of” human beings (Horkheimer 1972b [1992, 246]). Because such theories aim to explain and transform all the circumstances that enslave human beings, many “critical theories” in the broader sense have been developed. They have emerged in connection with the many social movements that identify varied dimensions of the domination of human beings in modern societies. In both the broad and the narrow senses, however, a critical theory provides the descriptive and normative bases for social inquiry aimed at decreasing domination and increasing freedom in all their forms.”

Yes, I think there is a connection from what I have read over the past couple of years, which I’m too tired to think about right now and find links. 
I think Marxist gets conflated with “communist” and there is some confusion there. I think clear parallels with Marxism can be seen in CRT ideology which seems at its core to depend on a lens of oppressors vs. oppressed. 

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Racism led to slavery led to black codes/Jim Crow led to mass incarceration and redlining led to massive wealth inequality so... BAN WEALTH INEQUALITY! Makes perfect sense...no? This is stoopid.

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7 minutes ago, pinball said:

a critical theory provides the descriptive and normative bases for social inquiry aimed at decreasing domination and increasing freedom in all their forms.”

How can increasing freedom be something the "Land of the Free!" is against?

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27 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Suddenly aiming to decrease domination and increase freedom is recast as "Marxism."

Oh brother! 👌

Bill

Black Lives Matter and Marxism:

https://www.socialistalternative.org/marxism-fight-black-freedom/black-lives-matter-marxism/

"Overthrowing capitalism cannot end all aspects of racism overnight, but it can do away with the exploitation that lays the basis for class society’s divide-and-rule approach. There is no other road. Black liberation can only be won through the socialist transformation of society."

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1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

How can increasing freedom be something the "Land of the Free!" is against?

It's a question of equity of outcome vs equal opportunity.

America is known as the land of opportunity. Everyone has a shot here. Are there no minorities that have come from nothing and become successful?

Example

Should graduation standards be lowered so there is equity of outcome and everyone graduates or should graduation standards remain held high but provide an equal opportunity for all students to reach their potential? Which sounds more like "Land of the Free"? 

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1 minute ago, Plum said:

 should graduation standards remain held high but provide an equal opportunity for all students to reach their potential? Which sounds more like "Land of the Free"? 

This is not currently possible. to pretend otherwise is to ignore reality. 

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I haven't read up on the Marxism angle. 

I posted on Page 1 about Critical Legal Studies inspiring this according to the American Bar Association. But looking into it further, it does look like it was influenced by Marx among many other philosophers. 

Overview
Critical legal studies (CLS) is a theory which states that the law is necessarily intertwined with social issues, particularly stating that the law has inherent social biases. Proponents of CLS believe that the law supports the interests of those who create the law. As such, CLS states that the law supports a power dynamic which favors the historically privileged and disadvantages the historically underprivileged. CLS finds that the wealthy and the powerful use the law as an instrument for oppression in order to maintain their place in hierarchy. Many in the CLS movement want to overturn the hierarchical structures of modern society and they focus on the law as a tool in achieving this goal. 

History
CLS was officially started in 1977 at the conference at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, but its roots extend earlier to when many of its founding members participated in social activism surrounding the Civil Rights movement and the Vietnam War. The founders of CLS borrowed from non-legal fields such as social theory, political philosophy, economics, and literary theory. Among noted CLS theorists are Roberto Mangabeira Unger, Robert W. Gordon, and Duncan Kennedy. 

Influences
Although CLS has been largely contained within the United States, it was influenced to a great extent by European philosophers, such as Karl Marx, Max Weber, Max Horkheimer, Antonio Gramsci, and Michel Foucault. CLS has borrowed heavily from Legal Realism, the school of legal thought that flourished in the 1920s and 1930s. Like CLS scholars, legal realists rebelled against accepted legal theories of the day and urged the legal field to pay more attention to the social context of the law.

Subgroups
CLS includes several subgroups with fundamentally different, even contradictory, views. Feminist legal theory examines the role of gender in the law. Critical race theory (CRT) examines the role of race in the law. Postmodernism is a critique of the law influenced by developments in literary theory, and it emphasizes political economy and the economic context of legal decisions and issues.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/critical_legal_theory

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9 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

This is not currently possible. to pretend otherwise is to ignore reality. 

If we are looking to change things for the better is it not better to focus on ensuring everyone has a quality education? Wouldn't that elevate us all? 

There's quite a few successful inner city schools that ensure their students reach their full potential. It can be done. 

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This is so crazy to me. I am a BLM supporter. OBV. I am not, nor have I ever been, a Marxist. I don’t support nationalizing resources and state control of the means of production (socialism).

Folks are up and arms that their precious might be discomfited by challenging ideas/nuance and can’t be bothered to give a damn about the kids who have to learn to deal with those realities day in and day out without any help beyond their families and communities. It’s probably comfy to be unaware of the hoops others have to jump through to make you happy, secure in your status. I wouldn’t know.

Is analysis of history’s impact on modern life well done everywhere, no, because we have a population of teachers who are as ill-informed as anyone here, however well-meaning. We have people in this thread positing that our laws have no racially biased elements in them. That’s (kindly) ignorance of the highest order, an indication of just how woefully pathetic the education adults in this country received, and how much work still needs to be done. 

Is it wrong to make the attempt to lift the covers, no. Initial attempts may/will be clumsy. It’s STILL, IMO, worth the effort so people aren’t silently smacking their coworkers upside the head 50 years from now.

If your panties are twisted about this, imagine how hard other parents have worked to disabuse their children of the racist messages routinely delivered to their children for at least a hundred years, to undo the damage schools have done? TAKE A NUMBER, GET IN LINE.

If you’re basing your assessment of schools wrestling with these issues on Seattle White people who LOVE to speak for (not to) minorities or Loudin County (that loves to pretend it’s normal and middle class), or Tulsa (that clearly can’t distinguish shit from shinola where right/wrong is concerned), ok. But step back and look at the bigger picture. What are you saying? Reporting abuse, assault, bias, in schools is wrong? Children should be discouraged from doing that? Children can’t handle seeing that they may, in fact, benefit from unearned privilege? No, YOUR children can’t handle it. Mine have been confronted with both their privileges/advantages and their disadvantages from the beginning, not as an excuse but as a lens.

The military has a series of anonymous reporting systems both for sexual violence and racism/bias/abuse/command climate. The degree to which they’re effective is related to the degree to which they’re promoted and trusted and seen to be working/making a difference. Should those be banned b/c someone’s feelings are bruised? These people are fresh out of high school too. Are their psyches so fragile? And, if so, what does that say about their preparation for life? WHO prepared them?

On the one hand, people are upset that schools are wading into these waters b/c that’s the family’s job. On the other hand, leaving it only to families has been a complete disaster. Majority parents have been silent. They have said NOTHING and look where we are. Wealthy kids/adults are aligning with white supremacist groups. People believing lie upon lie, misrepresentation upon misrepresentation, who are threatening the lives of election administrators and other citizens.
 

I’m sorry, I’ve said this before, but I don’t trust majority people to get this at all, let alone get it right. Their kids might actually learn to acknowledge their legacy and birthright, to accept the same foundational bits of info., and acknowledge that things need to change (with some intention and support) but who wants anything to change when they’re perfectly happy/comfy? The whole thing makes me want to give up.
 

 

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14 minutes ago, Plum said:

If we are looking to change things for the better is it not better to focus on ensuring everyone has a quality education? Wouldn't that elevate us all? 

There's quite a few successful inner city schools that ensure their students reach their full potential. It can be done. 

And they don't do that by ignoring the obstacles facing their students. My sister is a principal, to say that all her students have an equal opportunity to succeed is false. Some come to school hungry. Some are sick and dealing with chronic illness. MANY are homeless. Many deal with alcoholic or drug addicted parents. Race plays into how likely a student falls into one of those categories. 

Providing extra resources for them, such as food, housing, extra tutoring, etc helps even things out. And college admissions officers can take into account that their grades may not reflect their true abilities. 

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39 minutes ago, Laurie said:

 

Black Lives Matter and Marxism:

https://www.socialistalternative.org/marxism-fight-black-freedom/black-lives-matter-marxism/

"Overthrowing capitalism cannot end all aspects of racism overnight, but it can do away with the exploitation that lays the basis for class society’s divide-and-rule approach. There is no other road. Black liberation can only be won through the socialist transformation of society."

You are cherry picking something written and posted by a particular political group not BLM. This is one person's opinion and view with the backing of this particular organization.  Which is not BLM.  Not sure what you think you've proven with this link.  

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29 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Wealthy kids/adults are aligning with white supremacist groups. 

Are they aligning with white supremacy in large numbers?  I was under the impression that white supremacy had been on a gradual decline since the civil rights era, but was receiving a lot more attention now because of certain public figures and because of social movements that cast a light on it, but I’d appreciate more information if I need correcting.

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10 minutes ago, Condessa said:

Are they aligning with white supremacy in large numbers?  I was under the impression that white supremacy had been on a gradual decline since the civil rights era, but was receiving a lot more attention now because of certain public figures and because of social movements that cast a light on it, but I’d appreciate more information if I need correcting.

White supremacist movements are absolutely NOT in decline. Their prominence is cyclical and they are on an upswing as they were in the 90s. I think people assume the absence of violence is peace but the tension has been building for the last 10-15 years. The FBI reports that the greatest domestic terror threat comes from this sector. I will see if I can find the FBI links again. Again, it’s not that I think attempts to address the challenges can’t be clunky but that the effort is necessary, not sufficient.

These are the links to the two most recent: https://www.dhs.gov/ntas/advisory/national-terrorism-advisory-system-bulletin-january-27-2021

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/05/14/dhs-issues-national-terrorism-advisory-system-ntas-bulletin

 

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2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

White supremacist movements are absolutely NOT in decline. Their prominence is cyclical and they are on an upswing as they were in the 90s. I think people assume the absence of violence is peace but the tension has been building for the last 10-15 years. The FBI reports that the greatest domestic terror threat comes from this sector. I will see if I can find the FBI links again. Again, it’s not that I think attempts to address the challenges can’t be clunky but that the effort is necessary, nor sufficient.

Thank you.

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Example:

A 3rd grade MATH class at R.I. Meyerholz Elementary School in Cupertino, CA asked it's students to rank themselves according to their power and privilege. (there is that wheel again) Here is a slide from the lesson. Those example paragraphs are just depressing either way and have nothing to do with MATH. 

social-identity-slidedeck-p7-normal.gif?

 

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3 minutes ago, Plum said:

Example:

A 3rd grade MATH class at R.I. Meyerholz Elementary School in Cupertino, CA asked it's students to rank themselves according to their power and privilege. (there is that wheel again) Here is a slide from the lesson. Those example paragraphs are just depressing either way and have nothing to do with MATH. 

social-identity-slidedeck-p7-normal.gif?

 

Aside from the fact that this is a bizarre assignment for a MATH class, it also seems to be at a ridiculously high expectation level for a third grader. 

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Cupertino. Also, what? A VERY expensive enclave. It’s the 12th most expensive in the nation. They may, indeed, have higher writing expectations than one would find on average.

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I found a recording of another parent from Loudoun County addressing their school board:

“In the words of Martin Luther King Jr., ‘I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.  Now I have a dream that we will implement love, not hate, or supporting another Jim Crow’s agenda. CRT is not a ‘nice dialogue,’ it was a tactic that was used by Hitler and the Ku Klux Klan on slaveries many years ago to dumb down my ancestors so we could not think for ourselves. CRT is racist; it is abusive; it discriminates against one’s color.”

 
 “Let me educate you: An honest dialogue does not oppress. An honest dialogue does not implement hatred and injustice; it’s to communicate without deceiving people. Today we don’t need your agreement. We want action and a backbone for what we ask for today: to ban CRT.”

“We don’t want your political advertisement to divide our children or belittle them. Think twice before you indoctrinate such racist theories. You cannot tell me what is or is not racist. Look at me. I had to come down here today to tell you to your face that we are coming together and we are strong. This will not be the last greet-and-meet. Respectfully.”

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25 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

White supremacist movements are absolutely NOT in decline. Their prominence is cyclical and they are on an upswing as they were in the 90s. I think people assume the absence of violence is peace but the tension has been building for the last 10-15 years. The FBI reports that the greatest domestic terror threat comes from this sector. I will see if I can find the FBI links again. Again, it’s not that I think attempts to address the challenges can’t be clunky but that the effort is necessary, not sufficient.

These are the links to the two most recent: https://www.dhs.gov/ntas/advisory/national-terrorism-advisory-system-bulletin-january-27-2021

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/05/14/dhs-issues-national-terrorism-advisory-system-ntas-bulletin

 

I do not see any mention of an increase in white supremacy in either of the above links.

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Teaching about systemic racism in history and current events doesn’t require that one adopt the framework of CRT.  I also haven’t seen anything in my district that I would yank my kids out of, just that I would want to contextualize with them.  

My parents were Socialist activists.  I come from a long line of people who have fought hard for labor and worker’s rights.  I’m not afraid of socialism or using the term loosely (though I don’t personally agree that central planning has shown to be a fantastic way to allocate resources and I’ve studied enough economic theory to be a in favor of adequately regulated free markets).  Pretending that Marxist thought isn’t part of critical theories, as affluent liberals seem apt to do these days, is silly and a bit disingenuous.  

When BLM finally had a groundswell of support against police brutality last year almost the first things I thought after “it’s about time” were:  

1. the moment may be lost to (largely white) activists trying to use it for their own unrelated aims.  That is exactly what I saw play out locally for sure. 

2. this is going to get corporatized, which will focus on individual efforts rather than systemic change.  

No one living in the communities most impacted by racism is well served by either of the above.  I would rather my kids learn about the history of movements being coopted and watered down and effective cross-class and cross-race communication skills than clunky sessions in random classes.  

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15 minutes ago, Condessa said:

I found a recording of another parent from Loudoun County addressing their school board:

“In the words of Martin Luther King Jr., ‘I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.  Now I have a dream that we will implement love, not hate, or supporting another Jim Crow’s agenda. CRT is not a ‘nice dialogue,’ it was a tactic that was used by Hitler and the Ku Klux Klan on slaveries many years ago to dumb down my ancestors so we could not think for ourselves. CRT is racist; it is abusive; it discriminates against one’s color.”

 
 “Let me educate you: An honest dialogue does not oppress. An honest dialogue does not implement hatred and injustice; it’s to communicate without deceiving people. Today we don’t need your agreement. We want action and a backbone for what we ask for today: to ban CRT.”

“We don’t want your political advertisement to divide our children or belittle them. Think twice before you indoctrinate such racist theories. You cannot tell me what is or is not racist. Look at me. I had to come down here today to tell you to your face that we are coming together and we are strong. This will not be the last greet-and-meet. Respectfully.”

Respectfully, this is bullshit. No one can accurately define CRT right now because it’s being used as a catch all term for any/all discussions of race and class in schools. Banning that essentially guarantees ignorance and perpetuation of the status quo. This is the same parent people would  put on TV and mock for their ignorance and speech in other contexts.

 

8 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

No one living in the communities most impacted by racism is well served by either of the above.  I would rather my kids learn about the history of movements being coopted and watered down and effective cross-class and cross-race communication skills than clunky sessions in random classes.  

I agree but that’s not what’s happening. The effort is clearly being made by people who want to prevent any/all discussion of ALL of it, not the co-opting/scapegoating, and not the underlying facts and certainly not what we should *do* about any of it. IMO, it’s a whitewash job, and an effective one at that.

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9 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I do not see any mention of an increase in white supremacy in either of the above links.

Not specifically, but the first link has this mention of racial tension (emphasis mine):

  • “Throughout 2020, Domestic Violent Extremists (DVEs) targeted individuals with opposing views engaged in First Amendment-protected, non-violent protest activity.  DVEs motivated by a range of issues, including anger over COVID-19 restrictions, the 2020 election results, and police use of force have plotted and on occasion carried out attacks against government facilities. 
  • Long-standing racial and ethnic tension—including opposition to immigration—has driven DVE attacks, including a 2019 shooting in El Paso, Texas that killed 23 people.
  • DHS is concerned these same drivers to violence will remain through early 2021 and some DVEs may be emboldened by the January 6, 2021 breach of the U.S. Capitol Building in Washington, D.C. to target elected officials and government facilities.
  • DHS remains concerned that Homegrown Violent Extremists (HVEs) inspired by foreign terrorist groups, who committed three attacks targeting government officials in 2020, remain a threat.
  • Threats of violence against critical infrastructure, including the electric, telecommunications and healthcare sectors, increased in 2020 with violent extremists citing misinformation and conspiracy theories about COVID-19 for their actions.  
  • DHS, as well as other Federal agencies and law enforcement partners will continue to take precautions to protect people and infrastructure across the United States.
  • DHS remains committed to preventing violence and threats meant to intimidate or coerce specific populations on the basis of their religion, race, ethnicity, identity or political views.
  • DHS encourages state, local, tribal, and territorial homeland security partners to continue prioritizing physical security measures, particularly around government facilities, to protect people and critical infrastructure.”

The second link refers to “threats posed by domestic terrorists, individuals, and groups engaged in grievance-based violence, and those inspired or influenced by foreign terrorists and other malign foreign influences” and “ongoing threats to the United States, including those posed by domestic terrorism, grievance-based violence, and those inspired or influenced by foreign terrorists and other malign foreign influences” and references the first link.

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18 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

When we were better than this as a nation? When women couldn't vote? When African Americans were kept from the polls? When the Jim Crow laws were in place? When women needed their husband's approval to get a credit card? 

Yes, people are polarized and there are many reasons for that. One reason is that people are becoming more aware or inequities and trying to work through them. That will be uncomfortable. It actually should be uncomfortable. A discussion about race should be uncomfortable. If it's not uncomfortable then you're not doing it right. 

Polarization is to be expected when one side is opposed to racism and another side is opposed to removing any of its privileges. 

I meant better in terms of the vitriol and polarization in politics today, most of which is being driven and fed by social media. There used to be a sizable middle ground of moderates who were the bridge between the extremes. Now there are two extremes who yell at each other, call names and get nowhere. 

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22 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Teaching about systemic racism in history and current events doesn’t require that one adopt the framework of CRT.  I also haven’t seen anything in my district that I would yank my kids out of, just that I would want to contextualize with them. 

No, it doesn’t, but that’s kinda my point. Certain segments of the population LIVE  for these semantic arguments that lack substance. I grew up with these discussions and concepts at family gatherings and never even heard of CRT until recently. Balancing what we had working for us/against us and discussing that openly, as a family, was normal. It didn’t have a name. It just was. I don’t have much patience for the higher-edification/jingoistic co-opting of an analysis and way of strategizing that underlies many black successes through the years. It’s a con job, an effort to take something that has been part of helping people make sense of and navigate the body politic and make it dirty, nasty, and hateful. It’s a perversion. It’s not unexpected, just frustrating.

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Found this in the Department of Homeland Security’s most recent Homeland Threat Assessment:

”Among DVEs (Domestic Violent Extremists), racially and ethnically motivated violent extremists—specifically white supremacist extremists (WSEs)—will remain the most persistent and lethal threat in the Homeland. Spikes in other DVE threats probably will depend on political or social issues that often mobilize other ideological actors to violence, such as immigration, environmental, and police-related policy issues.”

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/2020_10_06_homeland-threat-assessment.pdf
page 18

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2 minutes ago, Condessa said:

This article references tracking of active hate groups by the SPLC, which shows a decline from a high point in 2018.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/02/01/hate-groups-including-white-nationalists-declined-2020-splc-says/4341422001/

That’s GROUPS not incidents. It doesn’t take a group to bring down a federal building. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54968498.amp

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28 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I agree but that’s not what’s happening. The effort is clearly being made by people who want to prevent any/all discussion of ALL of it, not the co-opting/scapegoating, and not the underlying facts. IMO, it’s a whitewash job, and an effective one at that.

ITA

It’s an incredibly effective way to pour gasoline on the culture war fires so it’s being used to pretty effectively avoid any actual changes from taking place.  Keep people yelling about renaming Lincoln High School and suddenly, there’s no time or energy to address the school to prison pipeline that disproportionately impacts black males.  

This year, I expressed to a teacher friend of mine that I was concerned about my nephew losing so much ground educationally due to online school that he might not graduate from high school.  High school diplomas aren’t actually a thing that can be taken for granted in my family (I got the first one in 1998 and that number will rise to 4 once my son graduates).  My very nice and well meaning very lefty friend who has been fired up to talk about race and equity all this year had literally no ability to hear any criticism about the challenges he was facing in prolonged online school and suggested that a better path for my nephew might be job corps.  My nephew was all of 14 at the time and while I have no problems helping him consider various post graduation education and technical training, dude needs to graduate from high school.  He wants to graduate from high school and statistically he will do faaaar better in life if he does.  Moreover, I seriously doubt that if my friend’s daughter were struggling with school that much the suggestion that she drop out at 14 would fly with my friend and her husband.  I don’t think she’d make the same suggestion about my sons either.  My niece, whose talents lay in math and who is interested in being a math teacher, approached her college advisor (local community college) asking for extra support in a calculus class.  My niece took algebra in 8th grade and pre-calc in high school.  The very well meaning counselor decided the solution was to put my niece into a remedial class that she absolutely doesn’t need.  Easy A.  She actually said “why are you taking calculus?”  Sometimes people’s anti-racism looks pretty gosh darn racist.  Low expectations and just assuming that she needs to basically redo a class she took 5 years ago is not the way to work towards racial equity.  

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8 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

ITA

It’s an incredibly effective way to pour gasoline on the culture war fires so it’s being used to pretty effectively avoid any actual changes from taking place.  Keep people yelling about renaming Lincoln High School and suddenly, there’s no time or energy to address the school to prison pipeline that disproportionately impacts black males.  

This year, I expressed to a teacher friend of mine that I was concerned about my nephew losing so much ground educationally due to online school that he might not graduate from high school.  High school diplomas aren’t actually a thing that can be taken for granted in my family (I got the first one in 1998 and that number will rise to 4 once my son graduates).  My very nice and well meaning very lefty friend who has been fired up to talk about race and equity all this year had literally no ability to hear any criticism about the challenges he was facing in prolonged online school and suggested that a better path for my nephew might be job corps.  My nephew was all 14 at the time and while I have no problems helping him consider various post graduation education and technical training, dude needs to graduate from high school.  He wants to graduate from high school and statistically he will do faaaar better in life if he does.  Moreover, I seriously doubt that if my friend’s daughter were struggling with school that much the suggestion that she drop out at 14 would fly with my friend and her husband.  I don’t think she’d make the same suggestion about my sons either.  My niece, whose talents lay in math and who is interested in being a math teacher, approached her college advisor (local community college) asking for extra support in a calculus class.  My niece took algebra in 8th grade and pre-calc in high school.  The very well meaning counselor decided the solution was to put my niece into a remedial class that she absolutely doesn’t need.  Easy A.  She actually said “why are you taking calculus?”  Sometimes people’s anti-racism looks pretty gosh darn racist.  Low expectations and just assuming that she needs to basically redo a class she took 5 years ago is not the way to work towards racial equity.  

THIS. ALL OF THIS. It’s why I’m skeptical of the schools’ ability to do it successfully and disdainful of parental complaints about the effort but willing to, at least, TRY. I seriously don’t want to be helping my grandkids read these folk for filth but I will if I have to.

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9 minutes ago, scholastica said:

I meant better in terms of the vitriol and polarization in politics today, most of which is being driven and fed by social media. There used to be a sizable middle ground of moderates who were the bridge between the extremes. Now there are two extremes who yell at each other, call names and get nowhere. 

Have you seen the things that people in the 19th century did and said during political campaigns? This is not new. In fact, it's probably more authentic than the false post-war consensus, "don't talk about politics," etc. 

Besides, what's so terrible about engaging in politics? It's life and death so shouldn't it be worth a little bit of vitriol? The idea of not talking about politics and everyone putting their politics at the end of the day is based on the assumption that it doesn't really matter. And which people don't have to worry about politics? People that the system works for regardless of politics. 

I think moderates are somewhat of a myth. People can be left about some issues and right about other issues but who is exactly in the middle of any serious issue? Generally speaking, a moderate (truly in the middle) just doesn't know enough to take a side. 

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

This is so crazy to me. I am a BLM supporter. OBV. I am not, nor have I ever been, a Marxist. I don’t support nationalizing resources and state control of the means of production (socialism).

Folks are up and arms that their precious might be discomfited by challenging ideas/nuance and can’t be bothered to give a damn about the kids who have to learn to deal with those realities day in and day out without any help beyond their families and communities. It’s probably comfy to be unaware of the hoops others have to jump through to make you happy, secure in your status. I wouldn’t know.

Is analysis of history’s impact on modern life well done everywhere, no, because we have a population of teachers who are as ill-informed as anyone here, however well-meaning. We have people in this thread positing that our laws have no racially biased elements in them. That’s (kindly) ignorance of the highest order, an indication of just how woefully pathetic the education adults in this country received, and how much work still needs to be done. 

Is it wrong to make the attempt to lift the covers, no. Initial attempts may/will be clumsy. It’s STILL, IMO, worth the effort so people aren’t silently smacking their coworkers upside the head 50 years from now.

If your panties are twisted about this, imagine how hard other parents have worked to disabuse their children of the racist messages routinely delivered to their children for at least a hundred years, to undo the damage schools have done? TAKE A NUMBER, GET IN LINE.

If you’re basing your assessment of schools wrestling with these issues on Seattle White people who LOVE to speak for (not to) minorities or Loudin County (that loves to pretend it’s normal and middle class), or Tulsa (that clearly can’t distinguish shit from shinola where right/wrong is concerned), ok. But step back and look at the bigger picture. What are you saying? Reporting abuse, assault, bias, in schools is wrong? Children should be discouraged from doing that? Children can’t handle seeing that they may, in fact, benefit from unearned privilege? No, YOUR children can’t handle it. Mine have been confronted with both their privileges/advantages and their disadvantages from the beginning, not as an excuse but as a lens.

The military has a series of anonymous reporting systems both for sexual violence and racism/bias/abuse/command climate. The degree to which they’re effective is related to the degree to which they’re promoted and trusted and seen to be working/making a difference. Should those be banned b/c someone’s feelings are bruised? These people are fresh out of high school too. Are their psyches so fragile? And, if so, what does that say about their preparation for life? WHO prepared them?

On the one hand, people are upset that schools are wading into these waters b/c that’s the family’s job. On the other hand, leaving it only to families has been a complete disaster. Majority parents have been silent. They have said NOTHING and look where we are. Wealthy kids/adults are aligning with white supremacist groups. People believing lie upon lie, misrepresentation upon misrepresentation, who are threatening the lives of election administrators and other citizens.
 

I’m sorry, I’ve said this before, but I don’t trust majority people to get this at all, let alone get it right. Their kids might actually learn to acknowledge their legacy and birthright, to accept the same foundational bits of info., and acknowledge that things need to change (with some intention and support) but who wants anything to change when they’re perfectly happy/comfy? The whole thing makes me want to give up.
 

 

This is what always happens. We take a step forward and then the criticisms start. Some are valid. I don't think anyone believes these programs are great. But it's the same every time. Everyone begins overanalyzing and it opens a window for bad faith actors like Rufo quoted above. 

I've written here before that a good check for yourself is to see who else is espousing your opinions. I see the donut phenomenon over and over. A "good" liberal reasons him/herself into agreeing with people like Tucker Carlson. If that happens to you, take a step back and think it through again and because people like him are not coming from a place of good faith. Some of this is due to a need to be contrary. Or there are real problems on the left so someone begins to pay more attention to the talking points of the right. 

And what's the outcome of this outrage? Will it make schools better for any student? No. Laws will be passed outlawing CRT (which no one can even define) and people will feel self-satisfied that they saved the children. Until tomorrow's "save the children" outrage because that's how this works. And things won't be better for minority and disadvantaged children and note the percent of American children who fall into those groups keeps growing. 

 

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The Seattle Police have marched in Pride for years.  My brother told me they are being excluded this year.  My brother (queer disabled single dad) doesn’t know that he wants to go to the pride at all now because he doesn’t like the political message and while he definitely understands the issue of disproportionate policing he feels it sends a crap message to LGBT cops.  Also, since off duty cops are almost assuredly going to be hired for security, it’s hypocritical.  The culture wars emphasize division.  It’s not helpful.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've written here before that a good check for yourself is to see who else is espousing your opinions.

 

Maybe. Sometimes. It’s also the way straight into groupthink. 
“That statement is bad because it is something someone on the right (or the left) said.” No, I don’t think so. 

I don’t worry about it at all when I find myself occasionally agreeing with someone on the far left or far right on some aspect of an issue. It happens when you try to think critically. 

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2 hours ago, Laurie said:

 

Black Lives Matter and Marxism:

https://www.socialistalternative.org/marxism-fight-black-freedom/black-lives-matter-marxism/

"Overthrowing capitalism cannot end all aspects of racism overnight, but it can do away with the exploitation that lays the basis for class society’s divide-and-rule approach. There is no other road. Black liberation can only be won through the socialist transformation of society."

LOL. A socialist source sees Marxism as the answer. Alert the press.

Bill

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3 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Maybe. Sometimes. It’s also the way straight into groupthink. 
“That statement is bad because it is something someone on the right (or the left) said.” No, I don’t think so. 

I don’t worry about it at all when I find myself occasionally agreeing with someone on the far left or far right on some aspect of an issue. It happens when you try to think critically. 

It’s one kind of check but it also depends on your perception of the thought spectrum. For me, it’s a circle, not a line. People on the far left and far right often share similar views. Even on this forum you can see the overlap. That overlap doesn’t just happen because of critical thinking.

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8 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

The Seattle Police have marched in Pride for years.  My brother told me they are being excluded this year.  My brother (queer disabled single dad) doesn’t know that he wants to go to the pride at all now because he doesn’t like the political message and while he definitely understands the issue of disproportionate policing he feels it sends a crap message to LGBT cops.  Also, since off duty cops are almost assuredly going to be hired for security, it’s hypocritical.  The culture wars emphasize division.  It’s not helpful.  

 

This kind of thing is frustrating. The *thin blue line* people similarly neglected to consider the perspectives of black cops who often have/had separate unions.

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20 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

ITA

It’s an incredibly effective way to pour gasoline on the culture war fires so it’s being used to pretty effectively avoid any actual changes from taking place.  Keep people yelling about renaming Lincoln High School and suddenly, there’s no time or energy to address the school to prison pipeline that disproportionately impacts black males.  

This year, I expressed to a teacher friend of mine that I was concerned about my nephew losing so much ground educationally due to online school that he might not graduate from high school.  High school diplomas aren’t actually a thing that can be taken for granted in my family (I got the first one in 1998 and that number will rise to 4 once my son graduates).  My very nice and well meaning very lefty friend who has been fired up to talk about race and equity all this year had literally no ability to hear any criticism about the challenges he was facing in prolonged online school and suggested that a better path for my nephew might be job corps.  My nephew was all of 14 at the time and while I have no problems helping him consider various post graduation education and technical training, dude needs to graduate from high school.  He wants to graduate from high school and statistically he will do faaaar better in life if he does.  Moreover, I seriously doubt that if my friend’s daughter were struggling with school that much the suggestion that she drop out at 14 would fly with my friend and her husband.  I don’t think she’d make the same suggestion about my sons either.  My niece, whose talents lay in math and who is interested in being a math teacher, approached her college advisor (local community college) asking for extra support in a calculus class.  My niece took algebra in 8th grade and pre-calc in high school.  The very well meaning counselor decided the solution was to put my niece into a remedial class that she absolutely doesn’t need.  Easy A.  She actually said “why are you taking calculus?”  Sometimes people’s anti-racism looks pretty gosh darn racist.  Low expectations and just assuming that she needs to basically redo a class she took 5 years ago is not the way to work towards racial equity.  

Yes, to all this but on the other hand, schools should not be named for Robert E Lee or Jefferson Davis. I know you wrote Lincoln and I know there people who advocate for removing his name as well. But I think we can start small an all agree that Robert E Lee needs to be go. The only way that those names were removed from schools and the statues from public parks is because of yelling. 

And yes anti-racism can look pretty racist at times but remember when the Bush administration talked about the "bigotry of low expectations?" It sounds good and it's even true but what was the outcome of their education initiatives? Not so good. That was part of the back to basics charter school movement. I know that urban school districts are usually underachieving and that there is probably too much power in the hands of the public school teacher unions (relevant to discussions about school closures during COVID). So in theory establishing alternatives sounds like a solution. But is the average student in those underachieving school district better or worse off? Probably worse because money was diverted to the charter schools and some of the charter schools were terrible. 

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8 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Maybe. Sometimes. It’s also the way straight into groupthink. 
“That statement is bad because it is something someone on the right (or the left) said.” No, I don’t think so. 

I don’t worry about it at all when I find myself occasionally agreeing with someone on the far left or far right on some aspect of an issue. It happens when you try to think critically. 

That's not exactly what I'm saying. I even agree with Tucker Carlson at times. But there is a kind of groupthink towards those opinions. I think it's like the "that sounds reasonable" thing. 

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1 hour ago, Plum said:

Example:

A 3rd grade MATH class at R.I. Meyerholz Elementary School in Cupertino, CA asked it's students to rank themselves according to their power and privilege. (there is that wheel again) Here is a slide from the lesson. Those example paragraphs are just depressing either way and have nothing to do with MATH. 

social-identity-slidedeck-p7-normal.gif?

 

Since when is third grade divided into separate classes for separate subjects?  

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7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s one kind of check but it also depends on your perception of the thought spectrum. For me, it’s a circle, not a line. People on the far left and far right often share similar views. Even on this forum you can see the overlap. That overlap doesn’t just happen because of critical thinking.

It’s true.  The more extreme people go, the more they start to look like the people furthest opposite them.  Two of my dh’s old college friends have each gone to opposite extremes in the years since, and sometimes I feel like I’m in the twilight zone  seeing how similar they have begun to sound.

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13 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s one kind of check but it also depends on your perception of the thought spectrum. For me, it’s a circle, not a line. People on the far left and far right often share similar views. Even on this forum you can see the overlap. That overlap doesn’t just happen because of critical thinking.

I agree. The populist far-right and populist far-left are not very far apart in their mentality.

I don't find that applying critical thinking brings me into alignment with either variation of populist extremism.

Bill

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re Blue Lives Matter... unless they support the wrong side

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This kind of thing is frustrating. The *thin blue line* people similarly neglected to consider the perspectives of black cops who often have/had separate unions.

See also the singular lack of concern for Capitol Police before / during / after the January 6 insurrection.

 

(whose participants, it seems relevant to note now that the thread has moved on to questioning whether white supremacy really is a threat today, toted Confederate flags along with their Camp Auschwitz hoodies and swastikas.)

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9 minutes ago, Danae said:

Since when is third grade divided into separate classes for separate subjects?  

Some schools do that as early as first.  I think it’s weird, and I’m surprised every time I hear it.  

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3 minutes ago, Danae said:

Since when is third grade divided into separate classes for separate subjects?  

Maybe it was math hour? IDK It said math class. This is a high performing elementary so it's possible. 

R. I. Meyerholz Elementary School serves 764 students in grades Kindergarten-5.
R. I. Meyerholz Elementary School placed in the top 5% of all schools in California for overall test scores (math proficiency is top 1%, and reading proficiency is top 5%) for the 2017-18 school year.
The percentage of students achieving proficiency in math is 92% (which is higher than the California state average of 39%) for the 2017-18 school year. The percentage of students achieving proficiency in reading/language arts is 86% (which is higher than the California state average of 50%) for the 2017-18 school year.
The student:teacher ratio of 25:1 is higher than the California state level of 23:1.
Minority enrollment is 93% of the student body (majority Asian), which is higher than the California state average of 77% (majority Hispanic and Asian).

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On 6/11/2021 at 12:59 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

I think moderates are somewhat of a myth. People can be left about some issues and right about other issues but who is exactly in the middle of any serious issue? Generally speaking, a moderate (truly in the middle) just doesn't know enough to take a side. 

I consider myself a moderate. Registered Non-Partisan and voted None of the Above because I didn't like either option. Being in the middle is likely why I'm never happy with any policy and come off as a contrarian. I really can go L or R but not extreme L or R. 

I think for myself. I read and come to my own conclusion. I don't have cable and watch multiple channels on the same topic to get different sides.

 

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29 minutes ago, Danae said:

Since when is third grade divided into separate classes for separate subjects?  

 

20 minutes ago, HeartString said:

Some schools do that as early as first.  I think it’s weird, and I’m surprised every time I hear it.  

It doesn’t seem unusual to me. I was in third grade in the early ‘70s and we went to different classrooms for our math and reading classes even then.

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