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Mom in Va. who lived through Cultural Revolution addresses school board regarding Critical Race Theory


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7 hours ago, KSera said:

People keep agreeing with that, but when the discussion moves on to the blanket bans of race discussions, others want to bring it back to these fringe cases where students say they were required to personally identify as oppressor. Why focus on that when we agree on that and the bigger problem is the people trying to legislate us away from schools being able to discuss racism at all? I don't know why we keep returning to talking about students being made to personally identify as victim or oppressor. It can't help but feel like deflection in this context.

I don’t know that people do agree about that, and actually it is the subject of the OP.  Granted, that was pages back, but it’s the legislation that is the deflection.

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3 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

And I am not going to call you names because you have a different perspective. What I believe is happening around me is anybody who doesn’t line up behind the new left is being labeled as backward and/or racist. 
 

What demographic are you experiencing this in? Because I live in a progressive neighborhood in a very blue state and work primarily with progressives and I’ve never experienced this. I’m also involved with local politics. Sure, I read about some of the stuff happening on college campuses or statements of some far left politicians, but my real life lived experiences is nothing like that. No one is calling anyone names at all. People are discussing, debating, agreeing, and disagreeing like adults.

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6 minutes ago, Frances said:

What demographic are you experiencing this in? Because I live in a progressive neighborhood in a very blue state and work primarily with progressives and I’ve never experienced this. I’m also involved with local politics. Sure, I read about some of the stuff happening on college campuses or statements of some far left politicians, but my real life lived experiences is nothing like that. No one is calling anyone names at all. People are discussing, debating, agreeing, and disagreeing like adults.

It’s like that here in many parts of Silicon Valley and the greater Bay Area.

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3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I keep hearing people make this claim but really? 

The new left is what? How many people? Are your neighbors members of the new left? What institutions do they control? Your employer? Your kids' schools? 

What are you supposed to do to line up behind the new left? 

People are jerks on Twitter. Okay, stay off Twitter. 

Labeled backward and/or racist? What does that mean? Will you lose your job? Will people scream at you on the streets? 

Let's get a sense of perspective here. 

It doesn't matter what you think or do - someone will label you as racist or backward, homophobic, or whatever. Someone else will label you as a socialist or a communist or a heretic, etc. People disagree about issues. 

 

I live in an area where one end of the political spectrum is definitely in control of local government and schools. New left or woke left or latte liberals- pick your term because I don’t care which one is used.  We can pretend this isn’t real or isn’t happening but it rather amounts to trying to convince me to say 2+2=5.  I know that it is happening because I see it with my own eyes.  There are many well intentioned laws here that are resulting in very negative outcomes.  
 

I’m not even a little bit conservative and have been extremely politically active and I find what is going on on the left to be darn near insufferable.  I’m not getting this opinion from astroturf articles or from carefully following, I dunno, the Manhattan Institute.  The left ignores criticism to our own peril on a host of issues around critical theory and the seeming erasure of class matters from what is considered important enough for affluent woke people to give a flying fig about.  The left’s autopsy of the 2020 election was super disingenuous and full of the same wishful thinking that has seen us continually lose or underperform.  We can (rightfully) point to those rules being unfair (EC, DC not having statehood, gerrymandering) but we can’t pretend that we didn’t know the rules before the game started.  At the end of the day, we have to confront that while voters support what we are selling, they really don’t like how we have been selling it.  And we have to respect and understand why they don’t like how we are selling it.  
 

Why is the GOP funding state bans on CRT?  Because they know they can win by focusing on culture wars over bread and butter issues.  And frankly, it’s not so much that they win on culture war stuff…it’s that the left is really remarkably excellent at losing on culture war stuff.  and they know this.  Anyone paying any real attention to the data knows this.  Our entire attitude seems to be summed up of late in “jam it down their throats/wack them upside the head”- I have heard this coming from my friends; I’ve heard it while sitting in on local and state level party meetings and I’ve read it from lefty political strategists and even heard it verbatim from a lefty political operative on national TV.  I actually rewound it and listened to her say it again because it sounded so much like what I was hearing locally.  This attitude doesn’t serve us well.  People don’t like to be hit over the head with sanctimony and repeated denials that *what they see happening* is actually happening.  We have to start treating people like people instead of monolithic constituencies who owe us their votes.  We have to stop pretending that people who are concerned about crime or shitty messages their kids are getting at school or who think defund the police is crazy pants are idiots or racists or people who would just “vote the right way” if only they could be wacked up the side of the head enough to think the right way.  

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52 minutes ago, Frances said:

What demographic are you experiencing this in? Because I live in a progressive neighborhood in a very blue state and work primarily with progressives and I’ve never experienced this. I’m also involved with local politics. Sure, I read about some of the stuff happening on college campuses or statements of some far left politicians, but my real life lived experiences is nothing like that. No one is calling anyone names at all. People are discussing, debating, agreeing, and disagreeing like adults.

I live nearish to you?  I definitely see/experience this.  Perhaps I just live closer to the epicenter or have more  extremist friends.  There are definitely issues I wouldn’t speak about in a work setting and within the last year I have had disagreements with friends who presumed that my divergence from the party line on a handful of issues meant I was falling for right wing propaganda (because, you know, as an NPR junkie who subscribes to The Nation and Mother Jones, I am really super immersed in conservative media).  One friend even accused me of being classist because I criticized the ineffectiveness and inefficiency of the local services to address homelessness.  FFS, I’ve been homeless more than once as a child.  I’ve had family members (plural) experience homelessness in the last few years.  I’ve worked in the sector for the better part of two decades.  I know the issue. I don’t need to be lectured about classism by a really affluent person eager to lecture me about my class privilege.  🤣 There have been other examples.  It’s a bit of a madhouse.  Like I said before in this thread, I come by my political positions authentically enough that I don’t become unmoored but this or flee from the left over it.  But I really do understand the inclination to run screaming from the building at this point.   ETA- I do get that this kind of behavior is nothing new or nothing that is the exclusive provenance of the left.  
 

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11 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

When people argue that the concept of white privilege should form a core part of instruction, K-12, when white privilege instruction is shown to weaken liberal and progressive commitment to alleviating poverty, as mediated through negative attitudes to the poor, they are engaging in a project that is reductionist. 

 

Yes - this.  And while I have no research to back this up, I'm not convinced it even creates an attitude that is desirable around poverty and problems in non-white communities. CRT typically very reductionist even in terms of the problems it claims to be elucidating. And there is some interesting research that tells us that when people are told problems are in systems beyond their control, it makes them less likely to try and fix them, and in some cases it also seems to make them more wary of the people being affected by the problem.

I really don't understand why people keep saying that without the lens of teaching being CRT it means not teaching about racism, historical slant, bias, and so on. Those ideas are not confined to CT approaches.

 

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42 minutes ago, SlowRiver said:

 

I really don't understand why people keep saying that without the lens of teaching being CRT it means not teaching about racism, historical slant, bias, and so on. Those ideas are not confined to CT approaches.

 

Because of the wording of the laws being passed.  They are *saying* they are banning CRT, but the language they are using in the laws being passed actually ban any discussion of anything that could make a child uncomfortable.    

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On 6/24/2021 at 6:33 PM, Harpymom said:

I agree, I'm talking about educators, school admins, curriculum directors, gatekeepers.

 

It took us 400 years to get here, it will take a while to get out.  An equitable society will need to encompass both ending personal bigotry and structural, generational oppression.  Reparations, a re-working of the economy away from capitalism, ending for-profit health care, replacing the current prison system are specifics.

This reads like no progress has been made in 400 years. 

That’s not even close to being accurate...every year, every generation has made social progress in terms of treatment of people of color, women, children, and  vulnerable populations.

 

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re what are we even discussing here: "CRT" or "legislation"?

6 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I don’t know that people do agree about that, and actually it is the subject of the OP.  Granted, that was pages back, but it’s the legislation that is the deflection.

I dunno, Carol.

The very legislators who are ramming these bills through are saying, in their own words out of their own mouths, that the bills are in response to "CRT" being rammed at the children.  Some of the preludes of the bills expressly reference CRT. 

You can be sympathetic to the children faced with episodes like those posted in the early pages of this Mondo thread, or you can be sympathetic to concerns about the blanket bans with language like Missouri's, whose text literally bans the teaching of "divisive concepts."  Or you can see nuance.

But the legislation sweeping state legislatures across the nation is a DIRECT RESPONSE to the clarion cries that "CRT" has swept into schools across the nation. We know that to be true because the legislators promoting the bills themselves STATE it as the reason/need for the bills.

So talking about the bills isn't a "deflection" from talking about "CRT" in schools. It is two facets of the precise same thing.  A very straight, astonishingly fast, implausibly uniform line between outcry => legislation.

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, HeartString said:

Because of the wording of the laws being passed.  They are *saying* they are banning CRT, but the language they are using in the laws being passed actually ban any discussion of anything that could make a child uncomfortable.    

This! It is insane. I guess that white kids are just too damn delicate to ever hear anything they don't like? WTH? We really need to just close the teacher education departments of every college and call it quits. What is the point? I don't even think it is possible to teach math without making some kids unhappy, uncomfortable. And stupid "happy messaging" legislation is just one more way the anti-education wing of the conservative approach to society dumbs the electorate down. We have been talking about this trend of "dumbing down" on this board for nearly two decades. Here is the ultimate assault on educating minds.

And while I understand what LucyStoner is saying about people being upset by constant messaging, being hammered by it if you will, all I can say is adults need to put their big people panties on. Nothing is going to change for the better while wringing our hands and worrying about ruffling feathers.

As for my lived experience, the only name calling going on has come from conservatives. What have I been personally called by the locals because we supported a democrat for county sheriff? If I had a quarter for every time I have been called a Libtard (and many other truly offensive terms) for daring to give a damn about any kind of basic human right, my next vacation would be well funded. Meanwhile, I have gone out of my way to not do the same in return, but I don't think it works well. I am not sure being the nice guy has any value anymore. It seems that on the rare occasions I let my temper get the best of me, and wrestle in the mud verbally, the conservative attacker backs down and leaves me alone, startled to think that they might actually reap what they sow (this is very true of the Christian attackers from.the fundie church because they truly think they have a right to be horrible humans to others and NOT have any consequence). If I am "the nice guy", I just keep getting hammered. Stand up to the bully.

Actually, if there is any kind of "silver lining" in the pandemic cloud (and there really isn't), it is that this past year has been personally lovely because I was able to shun the rest of the humans in my area. It is has been so nice not to be thrown in personally or professionally with the locals.

 

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6 hours ago, Frances said:

What demographic are you experiencing this in? Because I live in a progressive neighborhood in a very blue state and work primarily with progressives and I’ve never experienced this. I’m also involved with local politics. Sure, I read about some of the stuff happening on college campuses or statements of some far left politicians, but my real life lived experiences is nothing like that. No one is calling anyone names at all. People are discussing, debating, agreeing, and disagreeing like adults.

So maybe it’s our northern CA region. As Carol mentioned, greater Bay Area is like that.
 

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19 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Exactly == I didn't say use the word evil in the classroom.  How about just talk about how many died in Stalinist USSR or in the Cultural Revolution in China and other times too, etc.   And I also think that talking about how structural racism works is something left for advanced high school classes or colleges.  Furthermore, much of what is considered systemic racism that exists today is not actually racism but issues of poverty so that it isn't only blacks who suffer the problems, although they may be the largest group.  Things like poor maternal outcomes due to less prenatal care in my state is directly tied to rural counties with no hospitals--something that poor whites in counties also have as well as poor Latinos, etc.  Same with the burden of high fines placed on poor defendants- again - all poor defendants suffer from this.  

I've been staying out of this thread for so many reasons. But I don't think this is the way you want to go with this, because then we should also talk about how many people have died because of capitalist-driven societies, how deregulation and/or corporation-favorable policies have led to deaths or financial ruins or whatever. Or how democracies or republics allow for corruption, with examples. Unless you're okay with covering these things as well, in which case carry on.

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5 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I've been staying out of this thread for so many reasons. But I don't think this is the way you want to go with this, because then we should also talk about how many people have died because of capitalist-driven societies, how deregulation and/or corporation-favorable policies have led to deaths or financial ruins or whatever. Or how democracies or republics allow for corruption, with examples. Unless you're okay with covering these things as well, in which case carry on.

Too many members of my family were tortured in concentration camps in USSR. I will spare you gruesome details. My great grandma executed along with her 21 year old son for being too educated and therefore dangerous to the new proletariat. My dad’s friend arrested at 16 for asking a wrong question. He drove trucks at a gulag with executed bodies, some still alive going into grave. I don’t think we want to  draw parallels to deregulation. To slavery in America? Sure. 
This is the reason why individual rights and free speech need to remain at the heart of free society in my opinion. 

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7 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

I live nearish to you?  I definitely see/experience this.  Perhaps I just live closer to the epicenter or have more  extremist friends.  There are definitely issues I wouldn’t speak about in a work setting and within the last year I have had disagreements with friends who presumed that my divergence from the party line on a handful of issues meant I was falling for right wing propaganda (because, you know, as an NPR junkie who subscribes to The Nation and Mother Jones, I am really super immersed in conservative media).  One friend even accused me of being classist because I criticized the ineffectiveness and inefficiency of the local services to address homelessness.  FFS, I’ve been homeless more than once as a child.  I’ve had family members (plural) experience homelessness in the last few years.  I’ve worked in the sector for the better part of two decades.  I know the issue. I don’t need to be lectured about classism by a really affluent person eager to lecture me about my class privilege.  🤣 There have been other examples.  It’s a bit of a madhouse.  Like I said before in this thread, I come by my political positions authentically enough that I don’t become unmoored but this or flee from the left over it.  But I really do understand the inclination to run screaming from the building at this point.   ETA- I do get that this kind of behavior is nothing new or nothing that is the exclusive provenance of the left.  
 

I think we live in different, but border states? My city is definitely not the heart of liberalism in my state, so maybe that explains our different experiences?

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7 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

I live nearish to you?  I definitely see/experience this.  Perhaps I just live closer to the epicenter or have more  extremist friends.  There are definitely issues I wouldn’t speak about in a work setting and within the last year I have had disagreements with friends who presumed that my divergence from the party line on a handful of issues meant I was falling for right wing propaganda (because, you know, as an NPR junkie who subscribes to The Nation and Mother Jones, I am really super immersed in conservative media).  One friend even accused me of being classist because I criticized the ineffectiveness and inefficiency of the local services to address homelessness.  FFS, I’ve been homeless more than once as a child.  I’ve had family members (plural) experience homelessness in the last few years.  I’ve worked in the sector for the better part of two decades.  I know the issue. I don’t need to be lectured about classism by a really affluent person eager to lecture me about my class privilege.  🤣 There have been other examples.  It’s a bit of a madhouse.  Like I said before in this thread, I come by my political positions authentically enough that I don’t become unmoored but this or flee from the left over it.  But I really do understand the inclination to run screaming from the building at this point.   ETA- I do get that this kind of behavior is nothing new or nothing that is the exclusive provenance of the left.  
 

I’ve been pretty surprised and impressed by discussions here around homelessness. It’s a huge issue and people have lots of different opinions, but except on NextDoor, which like almost all social media devolves to the lowest common denominator, they seem to be generally welcome. Our neighborhood is directly affected and I’ve been to lots of meetings and forums and also been quite involved volunteer wise. 

I’m not at all discounting or denying your experiences. Maybe it’s just a matter of time before it arrives here.

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13 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

And now we come to the strangest part of the debate when conservatives approvingly quote Marxists. 

Non-Americans know more about what happens in the USA than many Americans. However, America's very complicated racial history is hard to understand from outside. 

It is possible for Chris to hold the same idea of what the problem is as someone with whom she would disagree about the solution. 

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50 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I've been staying out of this thread for so many reasons. But I don't think this is the way you want to go with this, because then we should also talk about how many people have died because of capitalist-driven societies, how deregulation and/or corporation-favorable policies have led to deaths or financial ruins or whatever. Or how democracies or republics allow for corruption, with examples. Unless you're okay with covering these things as well, in which case carry on.

Have you read The Gulag Archipelago? I read it for the first time recently.

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37 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I've been staying out of this thread for so many reasons. But I don't think this is the way you want to go with this, because then we should also talk about how many people have died because of capitalist-driven societies, how deregulation and/or corporation-favorable policies have led to deaths or financial ruins or whatever. Or how democracies or republics allow for corruption, with examples. Unless you're okay with covering these things as well, in which case carry on.

Shouldn't that be exactly what we teach? I think high school students and definitely college students should learn all about the good and bad of capitalism, communism, socialism, etc. They are old enough for nuance and for learning that nothing we've come up with so far has been a perfect system. What economic system or government eliminates corruption? None of them. I think some are worse than others, however, and some have had better outcomes than others. There's no need to pretend that anything is perfect in order to see that something is better. 

That's ok. It's good to be a critical thinker. I don't think anyone would come out of those classes thinking that all things considered, communism has worked out better for anyone. 

I think we have learned some of the bad parts of capitalism in school and we learned about the Robber Barons, Gilded Age, rise of unions, and evils of factory abuses. The issue I see is that it tends to end there as if the problems of capitalism were solved. These kids will one day need to help solve their countries' problems and it's going to be a lot harder for them if they're taught not to question anything or that there are no problems. 

 

2 hours ago, pinball said:

This reads like no progress has been made in 400 years. 

That’s not even close to being accurate...every year, every generation has made social progress in terms of treatment of people of color, women, children, and  vulnerable populations.

 

History is not a straight line of progress. Sometimes things have gotten better for some groups, sometimes things get worse, sometimes it's a mixed bag. 

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3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Too many members of my family were tortured in concentration camps in USSR. I will spare you gruesome details. My great grandma executed along with her 21 year old son for being too educated and therefore dangerous to the new proletariat. My dad’s friend arrested at 16 for asking a wrong question. He drove trucks at a gulag with executed bodies, some still alive going into grave. I don’t think we want to  draw parallels to deregulation. To slavery in America? Sure. 
This is the reason why individual rights and free speech need to remain at the heart of free society in my opinion. 

I'm sorry for what your family has been through. DH has similar family stories from Russia, China, and Cuba, so I'm not actually inclined to be rah-rah these -isms, but the blind eye we are willing to turn to our own faults because whataboutism seems to be a central and silent theme in this thread. Deregulation does kill people, I'm thinking specifically about pharmaceutical industry and chemical industries. You may say that's not as bad as having people dragged out of the houses at night and never seen again, or the state having the power to kill simply because it wants to, but I do think deregulation could be something to discuss in this context.

But that's besides the actual point I was going for. My entire point was that if you are saying you're only teaching to give the objective look at things we don't like, we should also give the objective look at things our bias says are good --> it doesn't have to be to show all things are equally bad, but to achieve the stated objective of no-judgement-just-facts the OP said they were advocating. 

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9 minutes ago, Paige said:

Shouldn't that be exactly what we teach? I think high school students and definitely college students should learn all about the good and bad of capitalism, communism, socialism, etc. They are old enough for nuance and for learning that nothing we've come up with so far has been a perfect system. What economic system or government eliminates corruption? None of them. I think some are worse than others, however, and some have had better outcomes than others. There's no need to pretend that anything is perfect in order to see that something is better. 

 

I agree, that was my entire point. I guess I did not express it correctly. I was addressing the idea that OP first said communism is evil, but would not teach it was evil [ie a value judgement about it], but would just teach about the facts about communism in the USSR and China. And that's fine with me, but from the phrasing I didn't think the OP would necessarily bring the same critical eye to the systems she doesn't see as evil. I could be wrong about that, hence the "carry on if this is ok with you" at the end. 

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39 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’ve been pretty surprised and impressed by discussions here around homelessness. It’s a huge issue and people have lots of different opinions, but except on NextDoor, which like almost all social media devolves to the lowest common denominator, they seem to be generally welcome. Our neighborhood is directly affected and I’ve been to lots of meetings and forums and also been quite involved volunteer wise. 

I’m not at all discounting or denying your experiences. Maybe it’s just a matter of time before it arrives here.

There’s a homeless encampment on a Seattle school ground now.  It’s actually a school that is where the district clusters the poorest and most marginalized students in NW Seattle- probably because richer parents would be able to get rid of it. Parents who are concerned (there has been a lockdown on campus plus there’s visible waste management and substance abuse issues) have been absolutely eviserated as being NIMBY racist types.  Many of the parents I see getting lectured about it are poor and working class and the people doing the lecturing are richer and usually white and don’t have to send their kids to that school and don’t have kids who relied on that park and community center because they don’t have yards in their small run down apartments.  It’s like suddenly it’s been decided that saying the city should pay for adequate indoor shelter is a racist dog whistle.  

My issue is that for as much money organizations are spending for tent cities and utility-less sheds rebranded “tiny houses” (it’s not a a house if you don’t have a place to use the toilet, shower or cook a meal), we could be providing actual inside inhabitable dwellings.  I know the budgets of these organizations.  A lot of money goes to lobbying for their org to get more money and to management.  A lot of money goes for data collection, consultants and studies.  A lot of money is spent on bandaid solutions that could be provided at a much lower cost.  We know what works- low barrier housing.  We keep spending money on shit that doesn’t work or is organization-serving rather than people-serving.  I dislike the “Seattle is dying” narrative but I also don’t think homeless people are well served by affluent activist types flattening the issue to it’s a civil right to live and sh!t anywhere you want, even if it’s on a kids’ schoolyard.  A friend of mine who incidentally makes his middle class salary off of this issue tried to tell me that it’s not the campers generating all the safety hazard garbage, it’s middle class people illegalling dumping.  Whatever he has to tell himself to rationalize support for a clearly failing system, I guess.  

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8 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

I live in an area where one end of the political spectrum is definitely in control of local government and schools. New left or woke left or latte liberals- pick your term because I don’t care which one is used.  We can pretend this isn’t real or isn’t happening but it rather amounts to trying to convince me to say 2+2=5.  I know that it is happening because I see it with my own eyes.  There are many well intentioned laws here that are resulting in very negative outcomes.  
 

I’m not even a little bit conservative and have been extremely politically active and I find what is going on on the left to be darn near insufferable.  I’m not getting this opinion from astroturf articles or from carefully following, I dunno, the Manhattan Institute.  The left ignores criticism to our own peril on a host of issues around critical theory and the seeming erasure of class matters from what is considered important enough for affluent woke people to give a flying fig about.  The left’s autopsy of the 2020 election was super disingenuous and full of the same wishful thinking that has seen us continually lose or underperform.  We can (rightfully) point to those rules being unfair (EC, DC not having statehood, gerrymandering) but we can’t pretend that we didn’t know the rules before the game started.  At the end of the day, we have to confront that while voters support what we are selling, they really don’t like how we have been selling it.  And we have to respect and understand why they don’t like how we are selling it.  
 

Why is the GOP funding state bans on CRT?  Because they know they can win by focusing on culture wars over bread and butter issues.  And frankly, it’s not so much that they win on culture war stuff…it’s that the left is really remarkably excellent at losing on culture war stuff.  and they know this.  Anyone paying any real attention to the data knows this.  Our entire attitude seems to be summed up of late in “jam it down their throats/wack them upside the head”- I have heard this coming from my friends; I’ve heard it while sitting in on local and state level party meetings and I’ve read it from lefty political strategists and even heard it verbatim from a lefty political operative on national TV.  I actually rewound it and listened to her say it again because it sounded so much like what I was hearing locally.  This attitude doesn’t serve us well.  People don’t like to be hit over the head with sanctimony and repeated denials that *what they see happening* is actually happening.  We have to start treating people like people instead of monolithic constituencies who owe us their votes.  We have to stop pretending that people who are concerned about crime or shitty messages their kids are getting at school or who think defund the police is crazy pants are idiots or racists or people who would just “vote the right way” if only they could be wacked up the side of the head enough to think the right way.  

I don't disagree that there's a problem. I was just in Portland visiting my parents last week. Portland is messed up. I'm thinking all of those poor people on the streets right now with record high temperatures. And every house on my parent's block with those signs like "In this house," or BLM signs. 

I agree with criticism of the left. I vote for Democrats but place much more blame on Democrats than the GOP for what is happening in this country. The Democrats have become the party of the upper middle class people who live in neighborhoods like my parents who feel that they fixed everything by putting a BLM sign in their front yard and voting for Biden. Meanwhile people are priced out of Portland and the streets are lined with the tents of homeless people. 

My sister linked this article on her FB. I thought it was very good although I don't completely agree with everything. 

Quote

I think the anger over these red bathrooms was a part of a reality of Portland that has been ignored for a little too long. For the longest time, media — both local and national — has reflected a reputation into the wider world of a silly place where beer and bikes and donuts are everywhere. Kumbaya, every day. Portland’s supposed progressivism always leads stories about this place. But that image of this city was one I never really recognized. It portrayed an image of a playground for people who have disposable income and, apparently, the time to drink brunch cocktails. The rest of us are too busy trying to make rent.

11. Marry Me, Baby

My mom found a link on the NYT website where you put in your zip code to find out people in your zip code voted in the 2020 election. She said 1% of their zip code voted for 1%. 1%!! She put in their old zip code from Oklahoma and 30% voted for Biden. So they now live in a more of a bubble than deep red Oklahoma. 

I believe the Democrats focus on culture war issues because they are afraid to go left on economic issues. The Dem leaders in Congress are rich and old just like the GOP leaders. I fall in the camp of the Democratic party that wants more focus on economic justice. 

I'm paraphrasing a debate between Clinton and Sanders from 2016. Sanders said that we needed to break up the big banks. 👍  Clinton asked whether breaking up the big banks would advance racial justice (can't remember exactly what she said but it was along those lines). <eyeroll> I think that sums up the debate between the different factions pretty well.

So, yes I understand that there is a problem on the left but I won't be that concerned that people are "labeled" (and that's the word I was responding to) as racist or backward. People label others all of the time. Okay - someone labels you as a racist. Now what? That fear shuts down dialogue. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Paige said:

Shouldn't that be exactly what we teach? I think high school students and definitely college students should learn all about the good and bad of capitalism, communism, socialism, etc. They are old enough for nuance and for learning that nothing we've come up with so far has been a perfect system. What economic system or government eliminates corruption? None of them. I think some are worse than others, however, and some have had better outcomes than others. There's no need to pretend that anything is perfect in order to see that something is better. 

That's ok. It's good to be a critical thinker. I don't think anyone would come out of those classes thinking that all things considered, communism has worked out better for anyone. 

I think we have learned some of the bad parts of capitalism in school and we learned about the Robber Barons, Gilded Age, rise of unions, and evils of factory abuses. The issue I see is that it tends to end there as if the problems of capitalism were solved. These kids will one day need to help solve their countries' problems and it's going to be a lot harder for them if they're taught not to question anything or that there are no problems. 

 

History is not a straight line of progress. Sometimes things have gotten better for some groups, sometimes things get worse, sometimes it's a mixed bag. 

Out of the groups I listed, who is it worse for today than it was 400 years ago? Who is it worse for today than it was 20 years ago?

who is it worse for today than it was last year?... all the people getting murdered, most often in big and/or poor cities. That’s up, in a dramatic way. But that’s after decades of overall drops in murders.

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4 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

There’s a homeless encampment on a Seattle school ground now.  It’s actually a school that is where the district clusters the poorest and most marginalized students in NW Seattle- probably because richer parents would be able to get rid of it. Parents who are concerned (there has been a lockdown on campus plus there’s visible waste management and substance abuse issues) have been absolutely eviserated as being NIMBY racist types.  Many of the parents I see getting lectured about it are poor and working class and the people doing the lecturing are richer and usually white and don’t have to send their kids to that school and don’t have kids who relied on that park and community center because they don’t have yards in their small run down apartments.  It’s like suddenly it’s been decided that saying the city should pay for adequate indoor shelter is a racist dog whistle.  

My issue is that for as much money organizations are spending for tent cities and utility-less sheds rebranded “tiny houses” (it’s not a a house if you don’t have a place to use the toilet, shower or cook a meal), we could be providing actual inside inhabitable dwellings.  I know the budgets of these organizations.  A lot of money goes to lobbying for their org to get more money and to management.  A lot of money goes for data collection, consultants and studies.  A lot of money is spent on bandaid solutions that could be provided at a much lower cost.  We know what works- low barrier housing.  We keep spending money on shit that doesn’t work or is organization-serving rather than people-serving.  I dislike the “Seattle is dying” narrative but I also don’t think homeless people are well served by affluent activist types flattening the issue to it’s a civil right to live and sh!t anywhere you want, even if it’s on a kids’ schoolyard.  A friend of mine who incidentally makes his middle class salary off of this issue tried to tell me that it’s not the campers generating all the safety hazard garbage, it’s middle class people illegalling dumping.  

Fortunately what you advocate for is now the primary focus in my city. 

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22 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

Have you read The Gulag Archipelago? I read it for the first time recently.

A very long time ago. I should probably revisit, but probably won't get back to it for many more years.

Interestingly, apparently since 2009 it's required reading in Russian schools. So they do seem to have at least some "critical" approach to their history in schools before post-secondary education. (wiki reference) Which seems just a interesting side note to this whole conversation.

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3 hours ago, HeartString said:

Because of the wording of the laws being passed.  They are *saying* they are banning CRT, but the language they are using in the laws being passed actually ban any discussion of anything that could make a child uncomfortable.    

Any kind of law like this would be impossible to write well, IMO. It's just too difficult to define what falls within the range of a theoretical system like this. It's always going to include a lot of overlap with other systems. So it would be easily badly applied and used.

However, I'm not reading many of the posts in the thread as saying that, quite a few seem to think that CRT is the only reflective way to study history, as if historians didn't understand how history can be political or biased, or people interested in sociology or law didn't understand systemic problems, before CT.

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Too many members of my family were tortured in concentration camps in USSR. I will spare you gruesome details. My great grandma executed along with her 21 year old son for being too educated and therefore dangerous to the new proletariat. My dad’s friend arrested at 16 for asking a wrong question. He drove trucks at a gulag with executed bodies, some still alive going into grave. I don’t think we want to  draw parallels to deregulation. To slavery in America? Sure. 
This is the reason why individual rights and free speech need to remain at the heart of free society in my opinion. 

How much do you know about the history of Latin America? 

Americans weren't tortured in concentration camps in the USA but many people were tortured and killed in other countries with the funding and support of the American government. 

There's something twisted about supporting individual rights and free speech for us and funding governments that punish people for expressing their opinions. Free speech for me but it's out the back of the helicopter for you. 

And getting back to the original discussion about what is taught in schools - this stuff isn't taught at all. How many American kids learn about Alende or the El Mozote massacre? 

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3 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re what are we even discussing here: "CRT" or "legislation"?

I dunno, Carol.

The very legislators who are ramming these bills through are saying, in their own words out of their own mouths, that the bills are in response to "CRT" being rammed at the children.  Some of the preludes of the bills expressly reference CRT. 

You can be sympathetic to the children faced with episodes like those posted in the early pages of this Mondo thread, or you can be sympathetic to concerns about the blanket bans with language like Missouri's, whose text literally bans the teaching of "divisive concepts."  Or you can see nuance.

But the legislation sweeping state legislatures across the nation is a DIRECT RESPONSE to the clarion cries that "CRT" has swept into schools across the nation. We know that to be true because the legislators promoting the bills themselves STATE it as the reason/need for the bills.

So talking about the bills isn't a "deflection" from talking about "CRT" in schools. It is two facets of the precise same thing.  A very straight, astonishingly fast, implausibly uniform line between outcry => legislation.

 

 

 

THIS PART. Yes, it’s appropriate to consider whether a) these are legitimate grievances, isolated incidents, regional issues, or nationwide ones; b) the laws being passed are responding to the issues being raised, particularly IN THE PLACES WHERE THE ISSUES EXIST, and c) the entire hysteria is being manufactured and amplified in order to enact a broader agenda that is principally concerned with mandating pro-‘patriotism’ messages and silencing criticism. They are all one and the same issue. There are a lot of assumptions being made WRT a, in particular, that I’m unwilling to subscribe to. It hasn’t been conclusively established in any way shape or form. How you leap from that (skipping b) to legislation is both problematic and, as you say, Pam, a tell about the true intent here. Whatever issues people here have, that is NOT what the PTB care about. That is NOT the agenda being advanced by the 24/7 drumbeat.

I, personally, believe Portland, Cupertino, Loudon and Seattle are jacked up and populated by paternalistic libs and also believe that doesn’t represent what is happening nationally, or in my Reagan Republican, defense-heavy community. I believe many teachers are ill-equipped to teach about race effectively and also that more training can and should be done to improve their work on the issue. I believe there are problems and also that the solution isn’t to abandon the effort but to revise, regroup, and reconsider some things. The solutions we’re seeing enacted do not, in fact, do anything to solve the problems being discussed here.
 

Meanwhile, real kids are going to be prevented from a) discussing their lived experiences in class, b) learning accurately about our shared history, and c) being physically safe and secure on college campuses THIS FALL.
 

The appropriate place to find out if this is an issue in your community is to get involved IN YOUR COMMUNITY, not leap into defunding and threatening colleges and banning/mandating speech.

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And I'd add, that while legislation of this type seems likely to be ineffective, part of the reason it's happening is that schools seem altogether too ready to implement curricula that many parents object to, that are clearly underpinned by a particular and often controversial ideological viewpoint, that parents don't want, and it's often done on the sly as well, and even with the explicit goal of undermining the home culture and beliefs. Often there seems to be little parents can do about it and they risk being called bigots if they speak out.

That approach is bound over time to produce parents who are angry, reactionary, mistrustful, and will do whatever they can to undermine what's going on at the school. 

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8 minutes ago, SlowRiver said:

Any kind of law like this would be impossible to write well, IMO. It's just too difficult to define what falls within the range of a theoretical system like this. It's always going to include a lot of overlap with other systems. So it would be easily badly applied and used.

However, I'm not reading many of the posts in the thread as saying that, quite a few seem to think that CRT is the only reflective way to study history, as if historians didn't understand how history can be political or biased, or people interested in sociology or law didn't understand systemic problems, before CT.

I don't think anyone on this thread believes the bolded. 

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24 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

How much do you know about the history of Latin America? 

Americans weren't tortured in concentration camps in the USA but many people were tortured and killed in other countries with the funding and support of the American government. 

There's something twisted about supporting individual rights and free speech for us and funding governments that punish people for expressing their opinions. Free speech for me but it's out the back of the helicopter for you. 

And getting back to the original discussion about what is taught in schools - this stuff isn't taught at all. How many American kids learn about Alende or the El Mozote massacre? 

Enough. I know enough.

Did I say we needn’t support free speech elsewhere? Or did I say I support actions of those we funded? 
No. I didn’t.

But I also don’t fail teach the context - Cold War, USSR funding communism in Latin America. I am under no illusions of what they were trying to achieve, but no, I do not justify the actions (imprisonments, executions….) of the side we supported. 
I am very clear on this. Individual rights are what matter. I will go further to say group rights should never come before individual ones. 

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1 hour ago, Moonhawk said:

I've been staying out of this thread for so many reasons. But I don't think this is the way you want to go with this, because then we should also talk about how many people have died because of capitalist-driven societies, how deregulation and/or corporation-favorable policies have led to deaths or financial ruins or whatever. Or how democracies or republics allow for corruption, with examples. Unless you're okay with covering these things as well, in which case carry on.

Nothing like the 50 million killed by Stalin or the 100 milliion killed by Mao Tse Tung.  

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Too many members of my family were tortured in concentration camps in USSR. I will spare you gruesome details. My great grandma executed along with her 21 year old son for being too educated and therefore dangerous to the new proletariat. My dad’s friend arrested at 16 for asking a wrong question. He drove trucks at a gulag with executed bodies, some still alive going into grave. I don’t think we want to  draw parallels to deregulation. To slavery in America? Sure. 
This is the reason why individual rights and free speech need to remain at the heart of free society in my opinion. 

My Grandfather died in a concentration camp in Soviet Union.  I only found out a few years ago that my Grandmother, mother and father were extremely lucky to get out of Siberia because almost all the Polish people were killed there.  Only about 50k out of nearly 300k survived. Menachem Begin was in the same camp and area with my father and he survived and became a Israeli Prime Minister.

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55 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I agree, that was my entire point. I guess I did not express it correctly. I was addressing the idea that OP first said communism is evil, but would not teach it was evil [ie a value judgement about it], but would just teach about the facts about communism in the USSR and China. And that's fine with me, but from the phrasing I didn't think the OP would necessarily bring the same critical eye to the systems she doesn't see as evil. I could be wrong about that, hence the "carry on if this is ok with you" at the end. 

Well you are wrong about that. I always taught what was good and bad about everything.  And btw, our country is not very capitalistic at all.  

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57 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

There’s a homeless encampment on a Seattle school ground now.  It’s actually a school that is where the district clusters the poorest and most marginalized students in NW Seattle- probably because richer parents would be able to get rid of it. Parents who are concerned (there has been a lockdown on campus plus there’s visible waste management and substance abuse issues) have been absolutely eviserated as being NIMBY racist types.  Many of the parents I see getting lectured about it are poor and working class and the people doing the lecturing are richer and usually white and don’t have to send their kids to that school and don’t have kids who relied on that park and community center because they don’t have yards in their small run down apartments.  It’s like suddenly it’s been decided that saying the city should pay for adequate indoor shelter is a racist dog whistle.  

My issue is that for as much money organizations are spending for tent cities and utility-less sheds rebranded “tiny houses” (it’s not a a house if you don’t have a place to use the toilet, shower or cook a meal), we could be providing actual inside inhabitable dwellings.  I know the budgets of these organizations.  A lot of money goes to lobbying for their org to get more money and to management.  A lot of money goes for data collection, consultants and studies.  A lot of money is spent on bandaid solutions that could be provided at a much lower cost.  We know what works- low barrier housing.  We keep spending money on shit that doesn’t work or is organization-serving rather than people-serving.  I dislike the “Seattle is dying” narrative but I also don’t think homeless people are well served by affluent activist types flattening the issue to it’s a civil right to live and sh!t anywhere you want, even if it’s on a kids’ schoolyard.  A friend of mine who incidentally makes his middle class salary off of this issue tried to tell me that it’s not the campers generating all the safety hazard garbage, it’s middle class people illegalling dumping.  Whatever he has to tell himself to rationalize support for a clearly failing system, I guess.  

And San Francisco is spending 60K per tent for homeless.  Tell me that there isn't massive corruption or some immensly bloated bureacracies because although I haven't priced tents lately (ours is more than 30 years old), I know that they do not cost that much.  More like maybe at most a thousand dollars but probably even less.

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11 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Nothing like the 50 million killed by Stalin or the 100 milliion killed by Mao Tse Tung.  

I don’t even know how to compare those numbers. You can think that carelessness that kills is bad even if you think that dictators are bad.

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58 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't disagree that there's a problem. I was just in Portland visiting my parents last week. Portland is messed up. I'm thinking all of those poor people on the streets right now with record high temperatures. And every house on my parent's block with those signs like "In this house," or BLM signs. 

I agree with criticism of the left. I vote for Democrats but place much more blame on Democrats than the GOP for what is happening in this country. The Democrats have become the party of the upper middle class people who live in neighborhoods like my parents who feel that they fixed everything by putting a BLM sign in their front yard and voting for Biden. Meanwhile people are priced out of Portland and the streets are lined with the tents of homeless people. 

My sister linked this article on her FB. I thought it was very good although I don't completely agree with everything. 

11. Marry Me, Baby

My mom found a link on the NYT website where you put in your zip code to find out people in your zip code voted in the 2020 election. She said 1% of their zip code voted for 1%. 1%!! She put in their old zip code from Oklahoma and 30% voted for Biden. So they now live in a more of a bubble than deep red Oklahoma. 

I believe the Democrats focus on culture war issues because they are afraid to go left on economic issues. The Dem leaders in Congress are rich and old just like the GOP leaders. I fall in the camp of the Democratic party that wants more focus on economic justice. 

I'm paraphrasing a debate between Clinton and Sanders from 2016. Sanders said that we needed to break up the big banks. 👍  Clinton asked whether breaking up the big banks would advance racial justice (can't remember exactly what she said but it was along those lines). <eyeroll> I think that sums up the debate between the different factions pretty well.

So, yes I understand that there is a problem on the left but I won't be that concerned that people are "labeled" (and that's the word I was responding to) as racist or backward. People label others all of the time. Okay - someone labels you as a racist. Now what? That fear shuts down dialogue. 

 

Oh you know one thing that makes me furious,  I wondered how the Congressenial people got so rich-even those that didn't start out that way.  I recently found out- they are excempt from insider trading- and since they write the legislation, they know where to put their money in before the rest of us./

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2 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Well you are wrong about that. I always taught what was good and bad about everything.  And btw, our country is not very capitalistic at all.  

Ok, glad to hear. I didn't want to make a total assumption, so thanks for clarifying. It's hard to cover "everything" but I agree with you that teaching about the systemic racism, from slavery to the post-civil war laws and  bias found in both schools and courts (before and up to today) are necessary for them to better understand their history and their society. Along with the pitfalls of other systems.

Yeah, we are more socialistic than we'd like to think. But the point wasn't communism vs capitalism vs socialism vs democracy vs monarchy or anything, but rather my-system vs different-system: that's where most of us have our bias. 

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48 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

How much do you know about the history of Latin America? 

Americans weren't tortured in concentration camps in the USA but many people were tortured and killed in other countries with the funding and support of the American government. 

There's something twisted about supporting individual rights and free speech for us and funding governments that punish people for expressing their opinions. Free speech for me but it's out the back of the helicopter for you. 

And getting back to the original discussion about what is taught in schools - this stuff isn't taught at all. How many American kids learn about Alende or the El Mozote massacre? 

As an aside, when I was in elementary school, my school was doing all sorts of teaching experiments.  (As a result of that and because we were very close to DC, we had Chinese govt officials visit when Nixon was President).  Anyway, I thought my school education was poor in many respects so I decided to learn more after school.  I started collecting old textbooks. One book that I got was an upper elementary textbook about Latin America.  

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2 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Oh you know one thing that makes me furious,  I wondered how the Congressenial people got so rich-even those that didn't start out that way.  I recently found out- they are excempt from insider trading- and since they write the legislation, they know where to put their money in before the rest of us./

Congress people  are not exempt from insider trading.  There have been recent scandals about this. I would support rules requiring politicians to put their assets in blind trusts though, as an added ethics measure.  

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1 minute ago, LucyStoner said:

Congress people  are not exempt from insider trading.  There have been recent scandals about this. I would support rules requiring politicians to put their assets in blind trusts though, as an added ethics measure.  

Well it certainly is very interesting how they make their money.  I remember trying to choose who I was supporting in a Republican primary  and in that one, everyone was a millionaire or more except Rick Perry who declared he had half a million.  I do not think that people who did not come from money and go into public service should becoming millionaires, at least not on a regular basis.  Half a million or so in assetts is reasonable.  Everyone getting millions is not.  

And this is not just a Republican problem- the same thing is true with the Dems.

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2 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

I've been staying out of this thread for so many reasons. But I don't think this is the way you want to go with this, because then we should also talk about how many people have died because of capitalist-driven societies, how deregulation and/or corporation-favorable policies have led to deaths or financial ruins or whatever. Or how democracies or republics allow for corruption, with examples. Unless you're okay with covering these things as well, in which case carry on.

And how our capitalistic society was built upon slavery, theft of land and resources from indigenous peoples, child labor and abuse of those in poverty, corporate abuse through the industrial revolution, stealing from immigrants, genocide of indigenous peoples in the Americas, orphan trains that turned children into free agricultural slaves, ...the list is scary long. We could start with the privatization of the prison system to for profit companies who then exploit a pipeline of slavery via prisoners forced labor.

If anyone wants to get into the "virtues" of capitalism, they had better very much have the big boy underpants on and airbags ready to deploy.

But I guess teachers better pretend that history never happens and never repeats itself. 😠

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1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't disagree that there's a problem. I was just in Portland visiting my parents last week. Portland is messed up. I'm thinking all of those poor people on the streets right now with record high temperatures. And every house on my parent's block with those signs like "In this house," or BLM signs. 

….SNIP….

I believe the Democrats focus on culture war issues because they are afraid to go left on economic issues. The Dem leaders in Congress are rich and old just like the GOP leaders. I fall in the camp of the Democratic party that wants more focus on economic justice. 

….SNIP….

So, yes I understand that there is a problem on the left but I won't be that concerned that people are "labeled" (and that's the word I was responding to) as racist or backward. People label others all of the time. Okay - someone labels you as a racist. Now what? That fear shuts down dialogue. 

 

First quoted paragraph response:
Yup, that is very typical here too.  Palo Alto and Marin County liberals are the ultimate in ‘you (YOU) should let the homeless live in your neighborhood or you are inhuman’ while holding firmly to the NIMBY stance that everyone attributes to right wing snobs.  It’s quite appalling.  

Second quoted paragraph response:
There is an increasing split in the Democratic Party over this, and it’s interesting to watch.  

Third quote paragraph response:
I think it’s appropriate and in fact positively good to avoid mislabeling people.  If we don’t try for truth, we might as well hang it up.  The word racist has so many meanings now that it is almost useless as a descriptor, but it is still a great insult that should not be slung around casually as it often is.

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I confess that I see these issues VERY differently because, if I use the linked article, I am both a technocrat and a believer in justice. I care about good government and fair government. In my area, culturally responsive teaching is very hard to do and the black students in this area (which is different from the predominantly black parts of the region), feel both aggrieved and stressed by the ignorance of their classmates. They do not get a lot of affirmation/confirmation. It’s largely every man/woman for themselves with no one speaking to them, directly, just about them.

I was at Harris Teeter today buying groceries after a week-long tour of southern colleges and universities, and the young man who checked me out was so sweet. He gingerly asked about my week so I mentioned our trip. He beamed. “My sister lives in ATL and attends a nursing program there. When we go to see her this summer, I’m going to visit Morehouse.” In this upper middle class community, black kids are flocking to HBCUs. I was unsurprised. His classmates (high school zone right next to DDs) are unlikely to have even heard of Morehouse. It’s very rednecky. My niece (further north in rural VA) started at one last year. My DD is strongly leaning that way. They are TIRED of all the astroturf controversies that they’re asked to defend, tired of fighting to be seen/heard/understood, tired of being in the minority. What I see is efforts to further marginalize them by rendering their lived experiences invisible/verboten/invalid. The nation is worse off for their need to withdraw and find safety.

How is this related you may ask? The conversation about race and racism isn’t going to go away if you force teachers to stop trying to address it; it’s going to happen without you, without the thoughts and experiences of people who can serve as translators. These kids are smart, talented, come from educated parents and stable homes. They’re moving on without you. Things are not changing fast enough.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2021/05/13/why-applications-and-enrollment-are-spiking-at-historically-black-colleges/amp/

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1 hour ago, pinball said:

Out of the groups I listed, who is it worse for today than it was 400 years ago? Who is it worse for today than it was 20 years ago?

who is it worse for today than it was last year?... all the people getting murdered, most often in big and/or poor cities. That’s up, in a dramatic way. But that’s after decades of overall drops in murders.

I agree that we're in a pretty good upswing now, but throughout history it is not always a straight line. Looking at today and saying we're better now and will be better tomorrow because we're better now is shortsighted, imo. Maybe we will be, maybe we won't. We don't know what comes next or what the results of our collective choices will be. I think that's why it's important to not take any freedoms or progress for granted. History is full of examples of societies that had shining eras of peace, prosperity, tolerance, and freedoms followed by not so great eras of repression or collapse.

 

 

 

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Just now, Paige said:

I agree that we're in a pretty good upswing now, but throughout history it is not always a straight line. Looking at today and saying we're better now and will be better tomorrow because we're better now is shortsighted, imo. Maybe we will be, maybe we won't. We don't know what comes next or what the results of our collective choices will be. I think that's why it's important to not take any freedoms or progress for granted. History is full of examples of societies that had shining eras of peace, prosperity, tolerance, and freedoms followed by not so great eras of repression or collapse.

 

 

 

Ok, as to your first line...that’s my point. We are steadily moving forward. We are not in the place we were 400 years ago, like the post I quoted implied.

we don’t have to dig out of 400 years of injustice. 

And I agree, no taking what we have for granted. We need to address our issues that we have now, and hold the line, and move forward. 

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2 hours ago, SlowRiver said:

And I'd add, that while legislation of this type seems likely to be ineffective, part of the reason it's happening is that schools seem altogether too ready to implement curricula that many parents object to, that are clearly underpinned by a particular and often controversial ideological viewpoint, that parents don't want, and it's often done on the sly as well, and even with the explicit goal of undermining the home culture and beliefs. Often there seems to be little parents can do about it and they risk being called bigots if they speak out.

That approach is bound over time to produce parents who are angry, reactionary, mistrustful, and will do whatever they can to undermine what's going on at the school. 

Most of those complaining vociferously in this thread don’t have kids in US public schools. Let me say that again. DO.NOT.HAVE.KIDS.IN.US.PUBLIC.SCHOOLS and only know a city/region’s schools from ‘news’ reports. From where does their intimate knowledge of national k-12 classroom environments come?

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16 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Most of those complaining vociferously in this thread don’t have kids in US public schools. Let me say that again. DO.NOT.HAVE.KIDS.IN.US.PUBLIC.SCHOOLS and only know a city/region’s schools from ‘news’ reports. From where does their intimate knowledge of national k-12 classroom environments come?

From discussions with community members who are local parents as well as from reporting.  I have never been in a homeschooling bubble.  I think  those are actually pretty uncommon.

Also, I care about US public schools, a lot.  I’ve volunteered in them, I’ve helped with fundraising for them, I’ve supported them financially.  I’ve helped start two public charter schools.  They teach in my name, and so I have some responsibility there, just like the police do what they do in my name and so I have some responsibility there too.  Frankly, I have every reason to care about this, on behalf of the parents and children embroiled in these things, and as a good citizen.  

I want the kids to be taught both accurately and appropriately.  The two are not mutually exclusive, and both are important.

Based on what do you so vociferously and repeatedly say that you disbelieve these reports?  Are you in Cupertino?  I don’t think so.  Are you in Las Vegas?  Again, no.  Are you in Santa Cruz?  Why, no.  I am personally involved in two of those areas, and yet you ‘know’ that the reports from those are untrue.

Sauce for the goose….

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1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

I confess that I see these issues VERY differently because, if I use the linked article, I am both a technocrat and a believer in justice. I care about good government and fair government. In my area, culturally responsive teaching is very hard to do and the black students in this area (which is different from the predominantly black parts of the region), feel both aggrieved and stressed by the ignorance of their classmates. They do not get a lot of affirmation/confirmation. It’s largely every man/woman for themselves with no one speaking to them, directly, just about them.

I was at Harris Teeter today buying groceries after a week-long tour of southern colleges and universities, and the young man who checked me out was so sweet. He gingerly asked about my week so I mentioned our trip. He beamed. “My sister lives in ATL and attends a nursing program there. When we go to see her this summer, I’m going to visit Morehouse.” In this upper middle class community, black kids are flocking to HBCUs. I was unsurprised. His classmates (high school zone right next to DDs) are unlikely to have even heard of Morehouse. It’s very rednecky. My niece (further north in rural VA) started at one last year. My DD is strongly leaning that way. They are TIRED of all the astroturf controversies that they’re asked to defend, tired of fighting to be seen/heard/understood, tired of being in the minority. What I see is efforts to further marginalize them by rendering their lived experiences invisible/verboten/invalid. The nation is worse off for their need to withdraw and find safety.

How is this related you may ask? The conversation about race and racism isn’t going to go away if you force teachers to stop trying to address it, it’s going to happen without you, without the thoughts and experiences of people who can serve as translators. These kids are smart, talented, come from educated parents and stable homes. They’re moving on without you. Things are not changing fast enough.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2021/05/13/why-applications-and-enrollment-are-spiking-at-historically-black-colleges/amp/

I can only imagine how exhausting it would be to hear these debates as an African American young person. I'm white and middle aged and it exhausts me. This entire thread is exhausting and depressing. 

Everyone's been civil on this thread but in other spaces there isn't so much tolerance for the bad faith contrarian arguments. 

25 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Most of those complaining vociferously in this thread don’t have kids in US public schools. Let me say that again. DO.NOT.HAVE.KIDS.IN.US.PUBLIC.SCHOOLS and only know a city/region’s schools from ‘news’ reports. From where does their intimate knowledge of national k-12 classroom environments come?

I was called "gross" for pointing this out. As if it's not blindingly obvious to everyone. 

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22 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

From discussions with community members who are local parents as well as from reporting.  I have never been in a homeschooling bubble.  I think  those are actually pretty uncommon.

Also, I care about US public schools, a lot.  I’ve volunteered in them, I’ve helped with fundraising for them, I’ve supported them financially.  I’ve helped start two public charter schools.  They teach in my name, and so I have some responsibility there, just like the police do what they do in my name and so I have some responsibility there too.  Frankly, I have every reason to care about this, on behalf of the parents and children embroiled in these things, and as a good citizen.  

I want the kids to be taught both accurately and appropriately.  The two are not mutually exclusive, and both are important.

Based on what do you so vociferously and repeatedly say that you disbelieve these reports?  Are you in Cupertino?  I don’t think so.  Are you in Las Vegas?  Again, no.  Are you in Santa Cruz?  Why, no.  I am personally involved in two of those areas, and yet you ‘know’ that the reports from those are untrue.

Sauce for the goose….

You asked…

I worked in ed policy/higher ed outreach/GEAR UP at the state level, traveling around to different underprivileged communities (rural, urban, and indigenous) for 6 years before having kids (and 2 years after). I worked for WSAC and OSPI in WA, DoE in Arkansas on equity issues, and have enrolled my kids in public schools in WA (Seattle/Magnolia), VA and DoDEA. I even toured the state of Arkansas for three years working on housing issues. Ooh, I almost forgot spending two years helping to create a model for HI’s school-based vax communications/clinics. I’ve toured schools, impromptu and scheduled, in each place, done focus groups with teachers and parents, and higher ed administrators looking to increase their URM admissions. I have seen cray, and explicitly said I believe some crazy exists in those liberal enclaves. I do not know, nor has it been proven, that those SPECIFIC incidents are as described. I do not, as I’ve also said, REPEATEDLY, believe those areas represent the majority of schools nationwide. Quite the contrary, I have refrained from posting the myriad ways schools in the areas I’m familiar with have designated black children slaves, sponsored slave auctions, and hung signs around juvenile necks… precisely because I don’t view those problematic incidents as emblematic of education as a whole. 

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