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Mom in Va. who lived through Cultural Revolution addresses school board regarding Critical Race Theory


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And I'd add, that while legislation of this type seems likely to be ineffective, part of the reason it's happening is that schools seem altogether too ready to implement curricula that many parents object to, that are clearly underpinned by a particular and often controversial ideological viewpoint, that parents don't want, and it's often done on the sly as well, and even with the explicit goal of undermining the home culture and beliefs. Often there seems to be little parents can do about it and they risk being called bigots if they speak out.

That approach is bound over time to produce parents who are angry, reactionary, mistrustful, and will do whatever they can to undermine what's going on at the school. 

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24 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

How much do you know about the history of Latin America? 

Americans weren't tortured in concentration camps in the USA but many people were tortured and killed in other countries with the funding and support of the American government. 

There's something twisted about supporting individual rights and free speech for us and funding governments that punish people for expressing their opinions. Free speech for me but it's out the back of the helicopter for you. 

And getting back to the original discussion about what is taught in schools - this stuff isn't taught at all. How many American kids learn about Alende or the El Mozote massacre? 

Enough. I know enough.

Did I say we needn’t support free speech elsewhere? Or did I say I support actions of those we funded? 
No. I didn’t.

But I also don’t fail teach the context - Cold War, USSR funding communism in Latin America. I am under no illusions of what they were trying to achieve, but no, I do not justify the actions (imprisonments, executions….) of the side we supported. 
I am very clear on this. Individual rights are what matter. I will go further to say group rights should never come before individual ones. 

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1 hour ago, Moonhawk said:

I've been staying out of this thread for so many reasons. But I don't think this is the way you want to go with this, because then we should also talk about how many people have died because of capitalist-driven societies, how deregulation and/or corporation-favorable policies have led to deaths or financial ruins or whatever. Or how democracies or republics allow for corruption, with examples. Unless you're okay with covering these things as well, in which case carry on.

Nothing like the 50 million killed by Stalin or the 100 milliion killed by Mao Tse Tung.  

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Too many members of my family were tortured in concentration camps in USSR. I will spare you gruesome details. My great grandma executed along with her 21 year old son for being too educated and therefore dangerous to the new proletariat. My dad’s friend arrested at 16 for asking a wrong question. He drove trucks at a gulag with executed bodies, some still alive going into grave. I don’t think we want to  draw parallels to deregulation. To slavery in America? Sure. 
This is the reason why individual rights and free speech need to remain at the heart of free society in my opinion. 

My Grandfather died in a concentration camp in Soviet Union.  I only found out a few years ago that my Grandmother, mother and father were extremely lucky to get out of Siberia because almost all the Polish people were killed there.  Only about 50k out of nearly 300k survived. Menachem Begin was in the same camp and area with my father and he survived and became a Israeli Prime Minister.

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55 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I agree, that was my entire point. I guess I did not express it correctly. I was addressing the idea that OP first said communism is evil, but would not teach it was evil [ie a value judgement about it], but would just teach about the facts about communism in the USSR and China. And that's fine with me, but from the phrasing I didn't think the OP would necessarily bring the same critical eye to the systems she doesn't see as evil. I could be wrong about that, hence the "carry on if this is ok with you" at the end. 

Well you are wrong about that. I always taught what was good and bad about everything.  And btw, our country is not very capitalistic at all.  

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57 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

There’s a homeless encampment on a Seattle school ground now.  It’s actually a school that is where the district clusters the poorest and most marginalized students in NW Seattle- probably because richer parents would be able to get rid of it. Parents who are concerned (there has been a lockdown on campus plus there’s visible waste management and substance abuse issues) have been absolutely eviserated as being NIMBY racist types.  Many of the parents I see getting lectured about it are poor and working class and the people doing the lecturing are richer and usually white and don’t have to send their kids to that school and don’t have kids who relied on that park and community center because they don’t have yards in their small run down apartments.  It’s like suddenly it’s been decided that saying the city should pay for adequate indoor shelter is a racist dog whistle.  

My issue is that for as much money organizations are spending for tent cities and utility-less sheds rebranded “tiny houses” (it’s not a a house if you don’t have a place to use the toilet, shower or cook a meal), we could be providing actual inside inhabitable dwellings.  I know the budgets of these organizations.  A lot of money goes to lobbying for their org to get more money and to management.  A lot of money goes for data collection, consultants and studies.  A lot of money is spent on bandaid solutions that could be provided at a much lower cost.  We know what works- low barrier housing.  We keep spending money on shit that doesn’t work or is organization-serving rather than people-serving.  I dislike the “Seattle is dying” narrative but I also don’t think homeless people are well served by affluent activist types flattening the issue to it’s a civil right to live and sh!t anywhere you want, even if it’s on a kids’ schoolyard.  A friend of mine who incidentally makes his middle class salary off of this issue tried to tell me that it’s not the campers generating all the safety hazard garbage, it’s middle class people illegalling dumping.  Whatever he has to tell himself to rationalize support for a clearly failing system, I guess.  

And San Francisco is spending 60K per tent for homeless.  Tell me that there isn't massive corruption or some immensly bloated bureacracies because although I haven't priced tents lately (ours is more than 30 years old), I know that they do not cost that much.  More like maybe at most a thousand dollars but probably even less.

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58 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't disagree that there's a problem. I was just in Portland visiting my parents last week. Portland is messed up. I'm thinking all of those poor people on the streets right now with record high temperatures. And every house on my parent's block with those signs like "In this house," or BLM signs. 

I agree with criticism of the left. I vote for Democrats but place much more blame on Democrats than the GOP for what is happening in this country. The Democrats have become the party of the upper middle class people who live in neighborhoods like my parents who feel that they fixed everything by putting a BLM sign in their front yard and voting for Biden. Meanwhile people are priced out of Portland and the streets are lined with the tents of homeless people. 

My sister linked this article on her FB. I thought it was very good although I don't completely agree with everything. 

11. Marry Me, Baby

My mom found a link on the NYT website where you put in your zip code to find out people in your zip code voted in the 2020 election. She said 1% of their zip code voted for 1%. 1%!! She put in their old zip code from Oklahoma and 30% voted for Biden. So they now live in a more of a bubble than deep red Oklahoma. 

I believe the Democrats focus on culture war issues because they are afraid to go left on economic issues. The Dem leaders in Congress are rich and old just like the GOP leaders. I fall in the camp of the Democratic party that wants more focus on economic justice. 

I'm paraphrasing a debate between Clinton and Sanders from 2016. Sanders said that we needed to break up the big banks. 👍  Clinton asked whether breaking up the big banks would advance racial justice (can't remember exactly what she said but it was along those lines). <eyeroll> I think that sums up the debate between the different factions pretty well.

So, yes I understand that there is a problem on the left but I won't be that concerned that people are "labeled" (and that's the word I was responding to) as racist or backward. People label others all of the time. Okay - someone labels you as a racist. Now what? That fear shuts down dialogue. 

 

Oh you know one thing that makes me furious,  I wondered how the Congressenial people got so rich-even those that didn't start out that way.  I recently found out- they are excempt from insider trading- and since they write the legislation, they know where to put their money in before the rest of us./

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2 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Well you are wrong about that. I always taught what was good and bad about everything.  And btw, our country is not very capitalistic at all.  

Ok, glad to hear. I didn't want to make a total assumption, so thanks for clarifying. It's hard to cover "everything" but I agree with you that teaching about the systemic racism, from slavery to the post-civil war laws and  bias found in both schools and courts (before and up to today) are necessary for them to better understand their history and their society. Along with the pitfalls of other systems.

Yeah, we are more socialistic than we'd like to think. But the point wasn't communism vs capitalism vs socialism vs democracy vs monarchy or anything, but rather my-system vs different-system: that's where most of us have our bias. 

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48 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

How much do you know about the history of Latin America? 

Americans weren't tortured in concentration camps in the USA but many people were tortured and killed in other countries with the funding and support of the American government. 

There's something twisted about supporting individual rights and free speech for us and funding governments that punish people for expressing their opinions. Free speech for me but it's out the back of the helicopter for you. 

And getting back to the original discussion about what is taught in schools - this stuff isn't taught at all. How many American kids learn about Alende or the El Mozote massacre? 

As an aside, when I was in elementary school, my school was doing all sorts of teaching experiments.  (As a result of that and because we were very close to DC, we had Chinese govt officials visit when Nixon was President).  Anyway, I thought my school education was poor in many respects so I decided to learn more after school.  I started collecting old textbooks. One book that I got was an upper elementary textbook about Latin America.  

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2 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Oh you know one thing that makes me furious,  I wondered how the Congressenial people got so rich-even those that didn't start out that way.  I recently found out- they are excempt from insider trading- and since they write the legislation, they know where to put their money in before the rest of us./

Congress people  are not exempt from insider trading.  There have been recent scandals about this. I would support rules requiring politicians to put their assets in blind trusts though, as an added ethics measure.  

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1 minute ago, LucyStoner said:

Congress people  are not exempt from insider trading.  There have been recent scandals about this. I would support rules requiring politicians to put their assets in blind trusts though, as an added ethics measure.  

Well it certainly is very interesting how they make their money.  I remember trying to choose who I was supporting in a Republican primary  and in that one, everyone was a millionaire or more except Rick Perry who declared he had half a million.  I do not think that people who did not come from money and go into public service should becoming millionaires, at least not on a regular basis.  Half a million or so in assetts is reasonable.  Everyone getting millions is not.  

And this is not just a Republican problem- the same thing is true with the Dems.

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2 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

I've been staying out of this thread for so many reasons. But I don't think this is the way you want to go with this, because then we should also talk about how many people have died because of capitalist-driven societies, how deregulation and/or corporation-favorable policies have led to deaths or financial ruins or whatever. Or how democracies or republics allow for corruption, with examples. Unless you're okay with covering these things as well, in which case carry on.

And how our capitalistic society was built upon slavery, theft of land and resources from indigenous peoples, child labor and abuse of those in poverty, corporate abuse through the industrial revolution, stealing from immigrants, genocide of indigenous peoples in the Americas, orphan trains that turned children into free agricultural slaves, ...the list is scary long. We could start with the privatization of the prison system to for profit companies who then exploit a pipeline of slavery via prisoners forced labor.

If anyone wants to get into the "virtues" of capitalism, they had better very much have the big boy underpants on and airbags ready to deploy.

But I guess teachers better pretend that history never happens and never repeats itself. 😠

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1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't disagree that there's a problem. I was just in Portland visiting my parents last week. Portland is messed up. I'm thinking all of those poor people on the streets right now with record high temperatures. And every house on my parent's block with those signs like "In this house," or BLM signs. 

….SNIP….

I believe the Democrats focus on culture war issues because they are afraid to go left on economic issues. The Dem leaders in Congress are rich and old just like the GOP leaders. I fall in the camp of the Democratic party that wants more focus on economic justice. 

….SNIP….

So, yes I understand that there is a problem on the left but I won't be that concerned that people are "labeled" (and that's the word I was responding to) as racist or backward. People label others all of the time. Okay - someone labels you as a racist. Now what? That fear shuts down dialogue. 

 

First quoted paragraph response:
Yup, that is very typical here too.  Palo Alto and Marin County liberals are the ultimate in ‘you (YOU) should let the homeless live in your neighborhood or you are inhuman’ while holding firmly to the NIMBY stance that everyone attributes to right wing snobs.  It’s quite appalling.  

Second quoted paragraph response:
There is an increasing split in the Democratic Party over this, and it’s interesting to watch.  

Third quote paragraph response:
I think it’s appropriate and in fact positively good to avoid mislabeling people.  If we don’t try for truth, we might as well hang it up.  The word racist has so many meanings now that it is almost useless as a descriptor, but it is still a great insult that should not be slung around casually as it often is.

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I confess that I see these issues VERY differently because, if I use the linked article, I am both a technocrat and a believer in justice. I care about good government and fair government. In my area, culturally responsive teaching is very hard to do and the black students in this area (which is different from the predominantly black parts of the region), feel both aggrieved and stressed by the ignorance of their classmates. They do not get a lot of affirmation/confirmation. It’s largely every man/woman for themselves with no one speaking to them, directly, just about them.

I was at Harris Teeter today buying groceries after a week-long tour of southern colleges and universities, and the young man who checked me out was so sweet. He gingerly asked about my week so I mentioned our trip. He beamed. “My sister lives in ATL and attends a nursing program there. When we go to see her this summer, I’m going to visit Morehouse.” In this upper middle class community, black kids are flocking to HBCUs. I was unsurprised. His classmates (high school zone right next to DDs) are unlikely to have even heard of Morehouse. It’s very rednecky. My niece (further north in rural VA) started at one last year. My DD is strongly leaning that way. They are TIRED of all the astroturf controversies that they’re asked to defend, tired of fighting to be seen/heard/understood, tired of being in the minority. What I see is efforts to further marginalize them by rendering their lived experiences invisible/verboten/invalid. The nation is worse off for their need to withdraw and find safety.

How is this related you may ask? The conversation about race and racism isn’t going to go away if you force teachers to stop trying to address it; it’s going to happen without you, without the thoughts and experiences of people who can serve as translators. These kids are smart, talented, come from educated parents and stable homes. They’re moving on without you. Things are not changing fast enough.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2021/05/13/why-applications-and-enrollment-are-spiking-at-historically-black-colleges/amp/

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1 hour ago, pinball said:

Out of the groups I listed, who is it worse for today than it was 400 years ago? Who is it worse for today than it was 20 years ago?

who is it worse for today than it was last year?... all the people getting murdered, most often in big and/or poor cities. That’s up, in a dramatic way. But that’s after decades of overall drops in murders.

I agree that we're in a pretty good upswing now, but throughout history it is not always a straight line. Looking at today and saying we're better now and will be better tomorrow because we're better now is shortsighted, imo. Maybe we will be, maybe we won't. We don't know what comes next or what the results of our collective choices will be. I think that's why it's important to not take any freedoms or progress for granted. History is full of examples of societies that had shining eras of peace, prosperity, tolerance, and freedoms followed by not so great eras of repression or collapse.

 

 

 

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Just now, Paige said:

I agree that we're in a pretty good upswing now, but throughout history it is not always a straight line. Looking at today and saying we're better now and will be better tomorrow because we're better now is shortsighted, imo. Maybe we will be, maybe we won't. We don't know what comes next or what the results of our collective choices will be. I think that's why it's important to not take any freedoms or progress for granted. History is full of examples of societies that had shining eras of peace, prosperity, tolerance, and freedoms followed by not so great eras of repression or collapse.

 

 

 

Ok, as to your first line...that’s my point. We are steadily moving forward. We are not in the place we were 400 years ago, like the post I quoted implied.

we don’t have to dig out of 400 years of injustice. 

And I agree, no taking what we have for granted. We need to address our issues that we have now, and hold the line, and move forward. 

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2 hours ago, SlowRiver said:

And I'd add, that while legislation of this type seems likely to be ineffective, part of the reason it's happening is that schools seem altogether too ready to implement curricula that many parents object to, that are clearly underpinned by a particular and often controversial ideological viewpoint, that parents don't want, and it's often done on the sly as well, and even with the explicit goal of undermining the home culture and beliefs. Often there seems to be little parents can do about it and they risk being called bigots if they speak out.

That approach is bound over time to produce parents who are angry, reactionary, mistrustful, and will do whatever they can to undermine what's going on at the school. 

Most of those complaining vociferously in this thread don’t have kids in US public schools. Let me say that again. DO.NOT.HAVE.KIDS.IN.US.PUBLIC.SCHOOLS and only know a city/region’s schools from ‘news’ reports. From where does their intimate knowledge of national k-12 classroom environments come?

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16 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Most of those complaining vociferously in this thread don’t have kids in US public schools. Let me say that again. DO.NOT.HAVE.KIDS.IN.US.PUBLIC.SCHOOLS and only know a city/region’s schools from ‘news’ reports. From where does their intimate knowledge of national k-12 classroom environments come?

From discussions with community members who are local parents as well as from reporting.  I have never been in a homeschooling bubble.  I think  those are actually pretty uncommon.

Also, I care about US public schools, a lot.  I’ve volunteered in them, I’ve helped with fundraising for them, I’ve supported them financially.  I’ve helped start two public charter schools.  They teach in my name, and so I have some responsibility there, just like the police do what they do in my name and so I have some responsibility there too.  Frankly, I have every reason to care about this, on behalf of the parents and children embroiled in these things, and as a good citizen.  

I want the kids to be taught both accurately and appropriately.  The two are not mutually exclusive, and both are important.

Based on what do you so vociferously and repeatedly say that you disbelieve these reports?  Are you in Cupertino?  I don’t think so.  Are you in Las Vegas?  Again, no.  Are you in Santa Cruz?  Why, no.  I am personally involved in two of those areas, and yet you ‘know’ that the reports from those are untrue.

Sauce for the goose….

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22 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

From discussions with community members who are local parents as well as from reporting.  I have never been in a homeschooling bubble.  I think  those are actually pretty uncommon.

Also, I care about US public schools, a lot.  I’ve volunteered in them, I’ve helped with fundraising for them, I’ve supported them financially.  I’ve helped start two public charter schools.  They teach in my name, and so I have some responsibility there, just like the police do what they do in my name and so I have some responsibility there too.  Frankly, I have every reason to care about this, on behalf of the parents and children embroiled in these things, and as a good citizen.  

I want the kids to be taught both accurately and appropriately.  The two are not mutually exclusive, and both are important.

Based on what do you so vociferously and repeatedly say that you disbelieve these reports?  Are you in Cupertino?  I don’t think so.  Are you in Las Vegas?  Again, no.  Are you in Santa Cruz?  Why, no.  I am personally involved in two of those areas, and yet you ‘know’ that the reports from those are untrue.

Sauce for the goose….

You asked…

I worked in ed policy/higher ed outreach/GEAR UP at the state level, traveling around to different underprivileged communities (rural, urban, and indigenous) for 6 years before having kids (and 2 years after). I worked for WSAC and OSPI in WA, DoE in Arkansas on equity issues, and have enrolled my kids in public schools in WA (Seattle/Magnolia), VA and DoDEA. I even toured the state of Arkansas for three years working on housing issues. Ooh, I almost forgot spending two years helping to create a model for HI’s school-based vax communications/clinics. I’ve toured schools, impromptu and scheduled, in each place, done focus groups with teachers and parents, and higher ed administrators looking to increase their URM admissions. I have seen cray, and explicitly said I believe some crazy exists in those liberal enclaves. I do not know, nor has it been proven, that those SPECIFIC incidents are as described. I do not, as I’ve also said, REPEATEDLY, believe those areas represent the majority of schools nationwide. Quite the contrary, I have refrained from posting the myriad ways schools in the areas I’m familiar with have designated black children slaves, sponsored slave auctions, and hung signs around juvenile necks… precisely because I don’t view those problematic incidents as emblematic of education as a whole. 

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6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

You asked…

I worked in ed policy/higher ed outreach/GEAR UP at the state level, traveling around to different underprivileged communities (rural, urban, and indigenous) for 6 years before having kids (and 2 years after). I worked for OSPI in WA, DoE in Arkansas on equity issues, and have enrolled my kids in public schools in VA and DoDEA. I even toured the state of Arkansas for three years working on housing issues. Ooh, I’m almost forgot spending two years helping to create a model for HI’s school-based vax communications. I’ve toured schools, impromptu and scheduled, in each place, done focus groups with teachers and parents, and higher ed administrators looking to increase their URM admissions. I have seen cray, and explicitly said I believe some crazy exists in those liberal enclaves. I do not know, nor has it been proven, that those SPECIFIC incidents are as described. I do not, as I’ve also said, REPEATEDLY, believe those areas represent the majority of schools nationwide. Quite the contrary, I have refrained from posting the myriad ways schools in the areas I’m familiar with have designated black children slaves, sponsored slave auctions, and hung signs around juvenile necks… precisely because I don’t view those problematic incidents as emblematic of education as a whole. 

So, see, whether or not those incidents are emblematic of education as a whole, they are unacceptable to me.  I have no problem calling that out, because, again, it is done in my name and so I have some involvement with it.  I don’t go out of my way to debunk these claims because the larger issue is important, which is, if these things are deep rooted, the rooting soil needs to be dug out, and if they are new, then whatever they are arising from needs to be resisted.  Same principle as the way that other things in this thread are being introduced and taught in public schools.  

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Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

So, see, whether or not those incidents are emblematic of education as a whole, they are unacceptable to me.  I have no problem calling that out, because, again, it is done in my name and so I have some involvement with it.  I don’t go out of my way to debunk these claims because the larger issue is important, which is, if these things are deep rooted, the rooting soil needs to be dug out, and if they are new, then whatever they are arising from needs to be resisted.  Same principle as the way that other things in this thread are being introduced and taught in public schools.  

The speech ‘bans’ are being done in your name too. Crickets.

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Just now, Sneezyone said:

The speech ‘bans’ are being done in your name too. Crickets.

Nope, just not the subject.

I don’t claim to know enough about the specific law to be able to address it well.  I do know a lot about education and what it should look like in a democratic republic.  I play to my strengths.  

But I have said what I favor, in education, and to the extent that the law opposes that it’s obvious that I disagree.  That’s not crickets.  

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1 minute ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Nope, just not the subject.

I don’t claim to know enough about the specific law to be able to address it well.  I do know a lot about education and what it should look like in a democratic republic.  I play to my strengths.  

But I have said what I favor, in education, and to the extent that the law opposes that it’s obvious that I disagree.  That’s not crickets.  

The links have been posted. If you haven’t read them or don’t know, it’s because you’re choosing not to know/see. Yes, we all play to our strengths. Mine is looking at the big picture and it’s impacts on real kids.

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1 hour ago, pinball said:

We are not in the place we were 400 years ago, like the post I quoted implied.

No, I said it has taken us 400 years to get to where we are now.  I did not say or imply that we are no better off than 400 years ago.  Straw man fallacy.

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3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The links have been posted. If you haven’t read them or don’t know, it’s because you’re choosing not to know/see. Yes, we all play to our strengths. Mine is looking at the big picture and it’s impacts on real kids.

Obviously not, because you’re not saying what to do instead like the rest of us are.

I’ve read the links, and I’ve said what I think should be done instead.  Not sure what you’re missing about this.

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And now my RW governor is the thought police.

https://www.businessinsider.com/desantis-signs-law-to-punish-student-indoctrination-at-florida-universities-2021-6

Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida on Tuesday signed legislation requiring the state's public colleges and universities to survey students, professors, and staff members about their political views in an effort to crack down on intellectual "indoctrination" on campuses.

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5 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Obviously not, because you’re not saying what to do instead like the rest of us are.

I’ve read the links, and I’ve said what I think should be done instead.  Not sure what you’re missing about this.

Again, PLEASE GO BACK AND READ SEVERAL PAGES AGO. I specifically outlined some ideas. I’m not going to rehash that. I’ve missed nothing. You’re coming in mid-stream, half-cocked.

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I do have kids in school (and am an active adult for more kids living with huge challenges in still other schools).  One of the links is the district my sons attend.  I don’t support bans for a mix of reasons but I am highly critical of the clunkiness and I am very much over the pretending there’s not an ideological agenda to some of the crappy trainings that teachers are being required to do and haphazardly replicate for their students.  

I promise that telling people like me who do value multiculturalism and accurate, in-depth and meaningful education around race and other contentious topics that our observations are only right wing fake news (a truly remarkable claim in my case) or unproven one off examples is not a way to combat these bans or convince parents that there’s nothing to see/nothing to worry about.    I know damn good and well that there’s racism in schools here (I basically had the ombudsman on speed dial one year due to the appalling shit being done to my black niece by nice “anti-racist” teachers).  If I have become concerned about this, it’s not because I deny racism or have been foolish enough to fall for propaganda.  I’ve shared some examples here, I’ve opted not to share others.  I don’t want my kid coming home having internalized a message that it’s bad to be a boy (as he did this year in 6th grade?!) or that being white means his family supports Trump (that latter example is actually from a homeschooling group we were in, lol).  I don’t want my nieces and nephews who are far less privileged than my sons to have to disclose traumatic information as a learning tool for others.  I don’t think it’s helpful that kids should be learning to label my friend’s autistic son a racist because he didn’t grasp when to stand in a stupid exercise.  Do I think the schools intentionally taught those things?  I don’t but kids are not in college level sociology seminars and many see things in a much more black and white way than a well intentioned teacher means to communicate.   

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4 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I do have kids in school (and am an active adult for more kids living with huge challenges in still other schools).  One of the links is the district my sons attend.  I don’t support bans for a mix of reasons but I am highly critical of the clunkiness and I am very much over the pretending there’s not an ideological agenda to some of the crappy trainings that teachers are being required to do and haphazardly replicate for their students.  

I promise that telling people like me who do value multiculturalism and accurate, in-depth and meaningful education around race and other contentious topics that our observations are only right wing fake news (a truly remarkable claim in my case) or unproven one off examples is not a way to combat these bans or convince parents that there’s nothing to see/nothing to worry about.    I know damn good and well that there’s racism in schools here (I basically had the ombudsman on speed dial one year due to the appalling shit being done to my black niece by nice “anti-racist” teachers).  If I have become concerned about this, it’s not because I deny racism or have been foolish enough to fall for propaganda.  I’ve shared some examples here, I’ve opted not to share others.  I don’t want my kid coming home having internalized a message that it’s bad to be a boy (as he did this year in 6th grade?!) or that being white means his family supports Trump (that latter example is actually from a homeschooling group we were in, lol).  I don’t want my nieces and nephews who are far less privileged than my sons to have to disclose traumatic information as a learning tool for others.  I don’t think it’s helpful that kids should be learning to label my friend’s autistic son a racist because he didn’t grasp when to stand in a stupid exercise.  Do I think the schools intentionally taught those things?  I don’t but kids are not in college level sociology seminars and many see things in a much more black and white way than a well intentioned teacher means to communicate.   

You continue to presume that SEA/PORTLANDIA represents America. I can assure you, it does not. The rural, southern states passing these laws, even Montana!, do not share the same issues. Extrapolating from your region to the nation is foolhardy in the extreme. No, students shouldn’t be forced to disclose traumatic things. That’s a LOCAL issue tho, not a national one, and not a state one. Students in Grays Harbor and Inchelium have other issues.

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6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

You continue to presume that SEA/PORTLANDIA represents America. I can assure you, it does not. The rural, southern states passing these laws, even Montana!, do not share the same issues. Extrapolating from your region to the nation is foolhardy in the extreme. No, students shouldn’t be forced to disclose traumatic things. That’s a LOCAL issue tho, not a national one, and not a state one. Students in Grays Harbor and Inchelium have other i issues.

I don’t know where you get this from.  There is nothing in her posts that indicates that she thinks that SEA/PORTLANDIA represents America as a whole.  It’s a side issue and an invention.

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20 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

You continue to presume that SEA/PORTLANDIA represents America. I can assure you, it does not. The rural, southern states passing these laws, even Montana!, do not share the same issues. Extrapolating from your region to the nation is foolhardy in the extreme.

Pretending like these crappy ideas only stay in one small irrelevant area is silly.  I’m hearing similar stories from family and friends who live in NC, Kentucky, the Midwest and the S.W and more conservative areas of the NW.  A lot of what we might initially see in liberal coastal areas filters through the entire country in due time, much like certain fashions of dressing or popular music have. 

And even if, as you claim that this is the purview of only a limited area: what about the people living in those areas?  It doesn’t do to erase the reality that people are experiencing here because you don’t see it where you happen to be.  Go right on ahead and pretend that valid criticisms of CRT are just contrarian right wing propaganda - and watch more of a backlash and more shitty laws pass.  

I note also that so far you have used the Seattle/Portand argument against the Bay Area and a county in VA, perhaps other locations as well. None of the areas where this is happening seem to factor as legit to you. I agree with you more than not but I don’t see what good comes from continually pretending that this is all a Chris Rufo/MI engineered issue. ETA: The flattening of issues into moralistic polarities and the refusal to consider any information that contradicts their ideology is why the left is so colossally awesome at losing in areas that we previously did very well in.  Defending CRTs idiosyncrasies for the K-8 set is not where the left should be pinning any electoral dreams.  We have to get to work on things that actually matter and make a real difference.  
 

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5 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I don’t know where you get this from.  There is nothing in her posts that indicates that she thinks that SEA/PORTLANDIA represents America as a whole.  It’s a side issue and an invention.

Ma’am, if you continue to support a position that CRT is de facto problematic because X issue happens in my liberal enclave, yes, you’re presuming it’s an issue OVERALL because it’s an issue for YOU, where YOU live. The classrooms I’ve visited in Arkansas and HI wouldn’t DARE to do the things described in this thread. It would never happen. More than likely, there are are really sad attempts to illustrate slavery by using it in math questions or dress-up events. Oh look, I’m Col. Sanders! (Yes, I’m being facetious). It’s not an invention. It’s a part of the country you’re not familiar with.

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15 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

Pretending like these crappy ideas only stay in one small irrelevant area is silly.  I’m hearing similar stories from family and friends who live in NC, Kentucky, the Midwest and the S.W and more conservative areas of the NW.  A lot of what we might initially see in liberal coastal areas filters through the entire country in due time, much like certain fashions of dressing or popular music have. 

And even if, as you claim that this is the purview of only a limited area: what about the people living in those areas?  It doesn’t do to erase the reality that people are experiencing here because you don’t see it where you happen to be.  Go right on ahead and pretend that valid criticisms of CRT are just contrarian right wing propaganda - and watch more of a backlash and more shitty laws pass.  

I note also that so far you have used the Seattle/Portand argument against the Bay Area and a county in VA, perhaps other locations as well. None of the areas where this is happening seem to factor as legit to you. I agree with you more than not but I don’t see what good comes from continually pretending that this is all a Chris Rufo/MI engineered issue. 
 

If this is an issue in your area, address it IN YOUR AREA. Using this to restrict speech and endanger students in Florida is criminal. Each of the areas cited in this thread is a bright blue, liberal enclave. The NV example has been refuted as a student who was failing the class for other reasons. The school made zero changes or concessions. I am, in fact, pissed that people are using liberal excesses in wealthy, coastal cities (not just on race issues) to circumscribe the freedoms that teachers and students in my region enjoy and limit my student’s higher education options. Equally gross is the idea that the students and faculty being abused by these laws are somehow to blame for them.

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PSA:  I’ve read the whole thread, pretty much as it developed.

The arc of it is basically:

Someone posts about an issue.

People say that another issue is more important.

Lots of discussion.

Then people whose only want to talk about the second issue start accusing those who try to talk about the original issue of changing the subject.  

I, personally, am fine with discussing both issues and no less than 18 more.  I’m not fine with trying to write law myself, although if others want to, have at it;—because it’s a job for lawyers.  The law of unintended consequences is the most relentless one in the world, IME.  I rarely talk about specific laws either, because it seems like there are many ways to interpret them, and they fit into a body of law in ways that are counterintuitive to the uninitiated.  But I’m more than willing to say how I think things should be, and whether a law should dictate that or not sometimes.

How I think things should be I have already said, more than once, in this thread.  Whether a law should dictate that I don’t actually know, because I don’t know how much of that end of things is governed by laws and how much by other means.  I have been surprised by the laws written about in this thread, and they are not in alignment (obviously) with how I think schools should be.  I regard that as a side issue to the main topic, but not an invalid one.

 

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5 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Too many members of my family were tortured in concentration camps in USSR. I will spare you gruesome details. My great grandma executed along with her 21 year old son for being too educated and therefore dangerous to the new proletariat. My dad’s friend arrested at 16 for asking a wrong question. He drove trucks at a gulag with executed bodies, some still alive going into grave. I don’t think we want to  draw parallels to deregulation. To slavery in America? Sure. 
This is the reason why individual rights and free speech need to remain at the heart of free society in my opinion. 

As someone inclined to socialism, I see stories like yours ( and hello, entire history of the 20th C) as a needed counterweight. More and more I think that political viewpoints work best as parts of a whole. 

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7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Ma’am, if you continue to support a position that CRT is de facto problematic because X issue happens in my liberal enclave, yes, you’re presuming it’s an issue OVERALL because it’s an issue for YOU, where YOU live. The classrooms I’ve visited in Arkansas and HI wouldn’t DARE to do the things described in this thread. It would never happen. More than likely, there are are really sad attempts to illustrate slavery by using it in math questions or dress-up events. Oh look, I’m Col. Sanders! (Yes, I’m being facetious). It’s not an invention. It’s a part of the country you’re not familiar with.

I haven’t said that it is de facto problematic.  I’ve said that it is being taught in ways that are unacceptable, to young children, personalized in a way that is inappropriate and damaging to all concerned.  I have never objected to it being studied or taught to adults.  

Nor have I said that it’s problematic because X happens locally.  I’ve said that X is problematic, and I’ve watched you say that the cited examples are pretty much not true (debunked, I think you said, which is inaccurate.)

This is a complete straw man.

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2 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I haven’t said that it is de facto problematic. IN YOUR AREA.  I’ve said that it is being taught in ways that are unacceptable, to young children, personalized in a way that is inappropriate and damaging to all concerned. IN YOUR AREA  I have never objected to it being studied or taught to adults.  
 

The bolded additions are mine and unstated. They still apply.

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7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It this is an issue in your area, address it IN YOUR AREA. Using this to restrict speech and endanger students in Florida is criminal. Each of the areas cited in this thread is a bright blue, liberal enclave. The NV example has been refuted as a student who was failing the class for other reasons. The school made zero changes or concessions. I am, in fact, pissed that people are using liberal excesses in wealthy, coastal cities (not just on race issues) to circumscribe the freedoms that teachers and students in my region enjoy and limit my student’s higher education options.

I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren’t surmising that I am either not acting locally or that I am somehow responsible for or even vaguely supportive of the hijinks on Florida or Texas or Montana?  

When the left attacks itself as we sooo often do, we end up right back where we started.  Maybe if the liberal coasts took the flipping memo and stopped giving the Rufos of the world fodder (anyone see his piece on Portland’s Child Soldiers 🤦‍♀️?) we would help curb the momentum for crappy laws in other places. But no, instead we keep on spewing out ever more crazy sh!t like it’s going to help the cause overall or not have an impact outside of this area.  

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2 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

The subject was CRT.  Area is irrelevant to that.  Not at all sure what you are getting at here.

Yep. Not just the parts you find edifying either. You left out a TON in your summary, included only the bits that supported your narrative, and ignored all of the context. Yep, that’s fair. NOT.

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24 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren’t surmising that I am either not acting locally or that I am somehow responsible for or even vaguely supportive of the hijinks on Florida or Texas or Montana?  

When the left attacks itself as we sooo often do, we end up right back where we started.  Maybe if the liberal coasts took the flipping memo and stopped giving the Rufos of the world fodder (anyone see his piece on Portland’s Child Soldiers 🤦‍♀️?) we would help curb the momentum for crappy laws in other places. But no, instead we keep on spewing out ever more crazy sh!t like it’s going to help the cause overall or not have an impact outside of this area.  

I’m with you, coastal liberals SHOULD stop pumping out excuses for conservatives to run roughshod over minorities elsewhere in the nation. I’m not about to co-sign their efforts tho, nor am I about to obscure their larger agenda by playing into the idea that these state laws reflect state/national issues and the local sources are irrelevant.

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7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Yep. Not just the parts you find edifying either. You left out a TON in your summary, included only the bits that supported your narrative, and ignored all of the context. Yep, that’s fair. NOT.

Huh?  Doesn’t make sense in context.

Maybe you’re responding to a different comment than the one you replied to?

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12 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Huh?  Doesn’t make sense in context.

Maybe you’re responding to a different comment than the one you replied to.

 

34 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

PSA:  I’ve read the whole thread, pretty much as it developed.

The arc of it is basically:

Someone posts about an issue.

People say that another issue is more important.

Lots of discussion.

Then people whose only want to talk about the second issue start accusing those who try to talk about the original issue of changing the subject.  

I, personally, am fine with discussing both issues and no less than 18 more.  I’m not fine with trying to write law myself, although if others want to, have at it;—because it’s a job for lawyers.  The law of unintended consequences is the most relentless one in the world, IME.  I rarely talk about specific laws either, because it seems like there are many ways to interpret them, and they fit into a body of law in ways that are counterintuitive to the uninitiated.  But I’m more than willing to say how I think things should be, and whether a law should dictate that or not sometimes.

How I think things should be I have already said, more than once, in this thread.  Whether a law should dictate that I don’t actually know, because I don’t know how much of that end of things is governed by laws and how much by other means.  I have been surprised by the laws written about in this thread, and they are not in alignment (obviously) with how I think schools should be.  I regard that as a side issue to the main topic, but not an invalid one.

 

You’re right. I meant to highlight this wholly incomplete summary.

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3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

If this is an issue in your area, address it IN YOUR AREA. Using this to restrict speech and endanger students in Florida is criminal. Each of the areas cited in this thread is a bright blue, liberal enclave. The NV example has been refuted as a student who was failing the class for other reasons. The school made zero changes or concessions. I am, in fact, pissed that people are using liberal excesses in wealthy, coastal cities (not just on race issues) to circumscribe the freedoms that teachers and students in my region enjoy and limit my student’s higher education options.

Isn't the issue in your area local also?

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