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Mom in Va. who lived through Cultural Revolution addresses school board regarding Critical Race Theory


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1 hour ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Yes, there are definitely education fads.

There are also definitely hysteria fads.  We've seen a # of them come and go the last 10 years (actually, much longer than that...anyone remember Dungeons & Dragons?)

Hey now, D&D never went away.  It’s still massively popular in some circles, LOL.  
 

ETA:  To be clear, those circles include all of the kids in my family.  My sons both run weekly games with their friends.  My nieces and nephews are all into it as well.   It’s actually a great game for perspective taking and learning to follow the group plan.  

Edited by LucyStoner
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On 6/14/2021 at 8:11 AM, Sneezyone said:

Do you support these legislative bans?

 

On 6/14/2021 at 8:26 AM, Plum said:

That's not a simple question. On their face, no. The reasoning, yes. We need time to figure this out. It's reactionary which always means pushed too far in the opposite direction.   

Like I said, education reformers have failed here. If they want something like this in public and charter schools, they need to come up with something that can at the very least been seen by parents. Right now it's a mystery. The only reason parents have an inkling this is happening in schools is because they are witnessing it for themselves in virtual school or their kids are coming home and talking to their parents. They know what they don't like when they see it. 

I do think it will even out over time. It will get challenged. Regular approved history will likely stay the same. If there is a clear picture of what will be taught, it's a lot easier to discuss and legislate. 

 

16 minutes ago, KSera said:

What would you suggest as a good strategy for teaching kids about racially charged history and how race continues to exert effects today? Do you support the recent bans or are you against those? I’ve been in agreement with you throughout the thread about some of the problematic applications, but I don’t think bans are the answer. To ignore these issues is to take a stand. 

answered that on page 11. It's a fast moving thread and posts get missed.

As I've said many times, I think labeling little kids, separating them into groups, ranking their identities in front of classrooms is not an appropriate way to handle this. People may fit into one identity or another, but have a completely different set of circumstances that negates their so-called privileged or oppressed identity. They are more than that wheel. It's not that hard to read a book and discuss these ideas in front of a class without singling out one kid. 

I'm not against looking at social studies, civics and history through many lenses. As a homeschool, we've covered as many cultures as we can and dug into individual country histories through their eyes to get all sides. I am not opposed to well-rounded view of the world. I am opposed to any one-sided or lop-sided views. 

There are flaws in every system. The school system is full of them. Maybe they should start there. 

 

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43 minutes ago, Plum said:

 

 

answered that on page 11. It's a fast moving thread and posts get missed.

As I've said many times, I think labeling little kids, separating them into groups, ranking their identities in front of classrooms is not an appropriate way to handle this. People may fit into one identity or another, but have a completely different set of circumstances that negates their so-called privileged or oppressed identity. They are more than that wheel. It's not that hard to read a book and discuss these ideas in front of a class without singling out one kid. 

I'm not against looking at social studies, civics and history through many lenses. As a homeschool, we've covered as many cultures as we can and dug into individual country histories through their eyes to get all sides. I am not opposed to well-rounded view of the world. I am opposed to any one-sided or lop-sided views. 

There are flaws in every system. The school system is full of them. Maybe they should start there. 

 

Sounds like you had/have nothing to worry about since the scenarios even remotely similar to the one you describe were astroturf issues elevated by people with a very different agenda than your own. I stand by my assessment that you falsely equated the actual time/energy expended on this topic in schools (next to nil) with what is being promoted by right wing media. 

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re Golden Rule in kindergarten v Empathy in middle/high school v Theory of Mind in adulthood

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I always wind up feeling that these highly dogmatic approaches to difficult issues are putting the cart before the horse. It's like with my personal preoccupation, math education -- they are teaching the outcomes of some deep mental models BEFORE the mental models and it does no good. 

The real point of all these things is the ability to see things from other people's perspectives (including people with a VASTLY different cultural experience) and to be able to be humble and thoughtful about the ways that you did not make your own luck. But if you skip the "golden rule" step and just jump to dogma about which group is more wronged, you get total nonsense. 

I've been in Facebook groups that were explicitly organized via a hierarchy about who was the biggest victim. People abused that hierarchy like people have abused ALL hierarchies (birth, class, education, race) since time immemorial. And people were JUST as intolerant of questioning as anyone else who subscribes to an unshakeable view about right and wrong. 

We don't want that. We oughtn't want that. 

And with all that being said, if you think about white privilege AFTER you've done some actual deep thinking about what different people's experiences look like, you'll see there's something there. But that doesn't mean it's a safe thing to good idea to present it first.

I largely agree with this. The abstract concept of privilege is an expression of the wider abstract construct of Theory of Mind. Which is certainly related to the Golden Rule * , but it is both substantially further along on the developmental sequence, and also substantially more abstract. 

(As I think for the first time about the way the meaning of the word "privilege" has evolved over the last ~10 years, its meaning has not only broadened in scope from a pretty concrete "how much stuff a person has" .... to a meaning that is not only vastly more abstract, but in addition gets to multiple layers of Theory of Mind -- how others view me vs how others view others.

(That incident last summer in Central Park, with the white woman who wasn't following the leash rule threatening to call LE on the black man who was asking her to -- and all the layers of Theory of Mind that that incident reveals -- she knew that LE would believe her false claim > his truthful report, and she knew he knew that, and he knew she knew that, and so they both knew the real danger she was putting him in by her threat to lie -- that was why the threat had power. That is "privilege." But it is also developmentally beyond the *powers of expression* of a middle schooler. Although not the *lived experience* of middle schoolers who are forced to walk that walk.)

 

The difficulty we have here -- have always had, and which the current top-down helicoptered drumbeating around CRT only reaffirms -- is that from the outset there has always been a pretty conscious, often even explicit, effort to actually suppress historical events (Sally Demings, Trail of Tears, Tulsa) as well as to vastly misrepresent (many slaveowners were pretty nice!  Civil War was about "states rights"! Lynching was done by vigilantes operating outside the law!). 

It goes beyond the truism everywhere, that history is written by the victors.  The 1776!!! movement is a pretty orchestrated and pretty transparent effort not just to protect fragile white feelz (though there certainly is a component of that) but also to suppress unpleasant *facts* about our history. So to run with your math example, not only abstract mental models little kids are ill-equipped to grapple with, but also the harder but-still-developmentally-appropriate *building blocks* that take a degree of effort to grapple with, like... I dunno, the analogy falters... long division, or negative numbers or something.

 

 

 

 

 

(   *  or its Hillel version, "do not do unto others, what is abominable to you".... or Jesus' version, the most difficult bar of them all for us mortals to strive for, "love your neighbor as yourself," particularly when fused to the Good Samaritan parable answering the question who is my neighbor?)

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2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Enough with the false equivalency. If I go to TPT right now and search for English and math lessons, what numbers will I find? The vast, vast majority of content is not of this nature. There is a clear effort, with which you seem to identify, to blow the extent of this challenge entirely out of proportion in order to justify clearly LESS good policies and laws. That’s not OK.

Just for kicks…

English over 2.8 million

Math over 1.7 million 

Science over 770k

Spanish over 290k

If this is the metric by which we’re judging how teachers spend their time and what their resource needs are…yeah…it’s not ANYTHING like the picture folks are trying to paint.


 

I decided to look for something a bit more specific but also often considered contentious...

Evolution 220,223

So yeah, does that make evolution a fad?

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1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

Hey now, D&D never went away.  It’s still massively popular in some circles, LOL.  

I wasn't sure if she meant D&D was a fad or the hysteria about D&D being devil worship was a fad.

 

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2 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

I wasn't sure if she meant D&D was a fad or the hysteria about D&D being devil worship was a fad.

That was quite the moral panic.  I remember there were kids in our homeschooling orbit who weren’t allowed to play D&D or Magic the Gathering, though that was decades after the height of that moral panic.    

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1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

Hey now, D&D never went away.  It’s still massively popular in some circles, LOL.  
 

ETA:  To be clear, those circles include all of the kids in my family.  My sons both run weekly games with their friends.  My nieces and nephews are all into it as well.   It’s actually a great game for perspective taking and learning to follow the group plan.  

I just noticed I accidentally hit the crying/sad emoji in response to this. I meant to like, as It's very popular around here as well.

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15 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

I decided to look for something a bit more specific but also often considered contentious...

Evolution 220,223

So yeah, does that make evolution a fad?

People aren't denying that evolution is being taught in schools. I was repeatedly asked in this thread to find proof this nebulous topic is being taught in schools. 

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9 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

That was quite the moral panic.  I remember there were kids in our homeschooling orbit who weren’t allowed to play D&D or Magic the Gathering, though that was decades after the height of that moral panic.    

This is still a thing.  A non-DND themed role playing game was being discussed as a fun co-op class.  The mere discussion led to accusations of sexual content and demon summoning.  So much outrage over a pretend game with dice.  

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2 minutes ago, Plum said:

People aren't denying that evolution is being taught in schools. I was repeatedly asked in this thread to find proof this nebulous topic is being taught in schools. 

Actually there are many many many schools where evolution isn't being taught.  In fact, there seems to be a ton of overlap between the locations working on banning these topics and those that don't allow evolution or have very strict requirements for how it's presented.  

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1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

(That incident last summer in Central Park, with the white woman who wasn't following the leash rule threatening to call LE on the black man who was asking her to -- and all the layers of Theory of Mind that that incident reveals -- she knew that LE would believe her false claim > his truthful report, and she knew he knew that, and he knew she knew that, and so they both knew the real danger she was putting him in by her threat to lie -- that was why the threat had power. That is "privilege." But it is also developmentally beyond the *powers of expression* of a middle schooler. Although not the *lived experience* of middle schoolers who are forced to walk that walk.)

A bit off topic but ....

This week my kids (age 14) and I finished the audiobook of Of Mice and Men.  There is a scene where a white woman referred to as a "tart" threatens to accuse a black man of touching her, in response to his threat to report something true about her.  And he backed down, and there was somewhat vague language as to why.  I started explaining the why to my kids, and they interrupted with "we know, like what happened in To Kill a Mockingbird."  The latter is a book my kids and I have read twice and discussed at length.

My kids are not geniuses.  I think teens can digest a serious, well-written book (or a good movie or other effective media) about "someone else, somewhere else, at a different time" and come out with a better understanding of the world.  This can be done without personalizing any of it, and without sweeping statements or stereotypes.

My kids have good friends of all races, and I'd like it to stay that way.  I do have concerns that a direct analysis of racial differences in the classroom will strain relationships too much.  Already my kids have had POC friends tell them "I hate white people," which is probably not the easiest thing to hear when most of your family is white.  And I certainly don't want my kids to make comments about white people around their white friends.  None of it seems likely to encourage more racial empathy or cooperation IMO.

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58 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

Actually there are many many many schools where evolution isn't being taught.  In fact, there seems to be a ton of overlap between the locations working on banning these topics and those that don't allow evolution or have very strict requirements for how it's presented.  

Right.

1) I wouldn't expect evolution be taught anywhere but Science. It's not getting incorporated into every subject. It's something that is easily defined and pinned down to one topic. 

2) It's not being taught in those places because the parents don't want it. They were able to fight the school board and say they didn't want it or they want it presented as a alternative. Just as people on this thread are asking for, the topic was fought about, discussed and a decision was made how to approach it. 

3) Parents have every right to say what and how their child will be taught these topics. If the school wants to step in and teach them, then they should expect parents to react. We may not like how every parent homeschools their kid, but they have a legal right to homeschool them however they want. The school has to answer to every parent in their district. 

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1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

That was quite the moral panic.  I remember there were kids in our homeschooling orbit who weren’t allowed to play D&D or Magic the Gathering, though that was decades after the height of that moral panic.    

I remember, before the D&D days, when KISS (the rock group) was the fuss.  My brother almost got kicked out of school for having KISS cards.  Then he moved on to D&D, LOL.  Quite the deviant!

Then there was the Harry Potter fuss.  I think some people still don't allow their kids to read Harry Potter, which I think is sad, as I consider H.K Rowling to have done more for childhood literacy in recent decades than just about anyone else.

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

I think some people still don't allow their kids to read Harry Potter, which I think is sad, as I consider H.K Rowling to have done more for childhood literacy in recent decades than just about anyone else.

Funny enough, we could get into a whole different cancel culture (I hate that term) discussion about JK Rowling. The groups most likely to prevent their kids from reading Harry Potter now are on the opposite end of the spectrum from the ones that were preventing it when my older kids were younger, for totally different reasons. But we probably don't want to go there 😬.

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10 minutes ago, Plum said:

Right.

1) I wouldn't expect evolution be taught anywhere but Science. It's not getting incorporated into every subject. It's something that is easily defined and pinned down to one topic. 

2) It's not being taught in those places because the parents don't want it. They were able to fight the school board and say they didn't want it or they want it presented as a alternative. Just as people on this thread are asking for, the topic was fought about, discussed and a decision was made how to approach it. 

3) Parents have every right to say what and how their child will be taught these topics. If the school wants to step in and teach them, then they should expect parents to react. We may not like how every parent homeschools their kid, but they have a legal right to homeschool them however they want. The school has to answer to every parent in their district. 

I don't disbelieve in evolution, but I wasn't taught it in school.  I was aware of what it was.  In church youth club, we actually did a semester class in evolution vs. creationism.  The schools just avoided it.  And I don't think that was a big deal.  Even in those pre-internet days, people who wanted to read about evolution could do so.  And again, let's be honest - the level of science education was not so high that the lack of evolution left a big gaping hole.

My kids indicated that their elementary science teacher (parochial school, teacher is older than me) told them evolution wasn't true.  They did learn about it in high school biology.  I gave my opinions on evolution/creation, and other than that, I'm not bothered about it.  It's not like my kids even have a rudimentary understanding of ontogenesis yet.

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7 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kids are not geniuses.  I think teens can digest a serious, well-written book (or a good movie or other effective media) about "someone else, somewhere else, at a different time" and come out with a better understanding of the world. 

I agree they can, but I am concerned about the "somewhere else at a different time" aspect, because that ignores the things actually happening in the world now. I grew up reading those books, in schools where race really didn't seem to be an issue and certainly wasn't in my very mixed friend group, but it led me to the mistaken belief that the kinds of things I read about were resolved issues.

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4 minutes ago, SKL said:

The schools just avoided it.  And I don't think that was a big deal.  Even in those pre-internet days, people who wanted to read about evolution could do so.  And again, let's be honest - the level of science education was not so high that the lack of evolution left a big gaping hole.

Yikes. They avoided it even at the high school level when you were in school? I don't know how biology can be properly taught without evolution. Someone can decide not to believe in it, but to not be taught it is indeed to leave a gaping hole, in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, KSera said:

I agree they can, but I am concerned about the "somewhere else at a different time" aspect, because that ignores the things actually happening in the world now. I grew up reading those books, in schools where race really didn't seem to be an issue and certainly wasn't in my very mixed friend group, but it led me to the mistaken belief that the kinds of things I read about were resolved issues.

For a kid, I think it's OK that they don't have a completely accurate, up-to-date understanding of everything in the world.  If they even could understand it.  We don't teach anything else by giving a full picture of the bad side.  When you started teaching your kids cooking, you didn't start out with stats on how many house fires were burning right now due to cooking accidents, or how many people were puking because of improperly handled food.

The thing about To Kill a Mockingbird and other good books is, they encourage people to question the status quo, to question the easy answers and not follow the crowd, even if you're too young and inexperienced to be sure of anything.  You may not have come out knowing exactly what is happening everywhere in your state/country, but you would have known to doubt and question things that seemed wrong, and that is important.  You would have been, in some small way, part of the solution rather than part of the problem.  And that is valuable IMO.

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Gen X here. I was watching old music videos yesterday. There was a lot of boundary pushing then too. There was also a lot of hope. Hope that we can all come together, enjoy each other's culture and grow. I don't see how separating and labeling us by identities is a step forward. All of this seems like it would drain hope from a kid. I grew up learning about apartheid. We don't need to be separated or polarized any more than we already are. We need to figure out how to come together and work it out. 

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2 minutes ago, SKL said:

For a kid, I think it's OK that they don't have a completely accurate, up-to-date understanding of everything in the world.  If they even could understand it. 

I don't know. I think I am still failing to make my point about not teaching something still being teaching something, just a different something. Kids who are facing these challenges don't have the privilege (there's that word) of not learning these things from an early age. That doesn't mean I think little kids need to be taught harsh realities before they are ready to process that, but I think in the very least, the adults should be aware of the privilege their kids have by not needing to know about those things yet. Certainly by high school, kids should be able to be learning these things.

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21 minutes ago, KSera said:

I don't know. I think I am still failing to make my point about not teaching something still being teaching something, just a different something. Kids who are facing these challenges don't have the privilege (there's that word) of not learning these things from an early age. That doesn't mean I think little kids need to be taught harsh realities before they are ready to process that, but I think in the very least, the adults should be aware of the privilege their kids have by not needing to know about those things yet. Certainly by high school, kids should be able to be learning these things.

It is teaching something. It's teaching that the thing being ignored (b/c the kids, particularly those with lived experiences, will see/hear it anyway) is either bad and not to be discussed or unimportant. TKAM will be banned in affected states. Sorry, it just will. It can't be taught without accurately discussing the banned subject matter. The ignorance of kids coming out of these states will shine through in higher ed and beyond.

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

Funny enough, we could get into a whole different cancel culture (I hate that term) discussion about JK Rowling. The groups most likely to prevent their kids from reading Harry Potter now are on the opposite end of the spectrum from the ones that were preventing it when my older kids were younger, for totally different reasons. But we probably don't want to go there 😬.

We certainly could go there. The difference, for me, is parental choice versus state sanctioned bans. I never made my kids read Twain. They didn't read TKAM either. Neither is worse for it. Their awareness of the issues raised was developed outside the classroom. As mentioned above, I don't see that happening in all households. Their answer wouldn't be 'we know', like what happened in a book. Some will know 'b/c of what happened to Grandpa and cousin and, and, and'. Others will be totally ignorant. It's not the kids with lived experiences who are gonna really miss out here. It's the ones increasingly becoming minorities by the numbers.

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

A bit off topic but ....

This week my kids (age 14) and I finished the audiobook of Of Mice and Men.  There is a scene where a white woman referred to as a "tart" threatens to accuse a black man of touching her, in response to his threat to report something true about her.  And he backed down, and there was somewhat vague language as to why.  I started explaining the why to my kids, and they interrupted with "we know, like what happened in To Kill a Mockingbird."  The latter is a book my kids and I have read twice and discussed at length.

My kids are not geniuses.  I think teens can digest a serious, well-written book (or a good movie or other effective media) about "someone else, somewhere else, at a different time" and come out with a better understanding of the world.  This can be done without personalizing any of it, and without sweeping statements or stereotypes.

My kids have good friends of all races, and I'd like it to stay that way.  I do have concerns that a direct analysis of racial differences in the classroom will strain relationships too much.  Already my kids have had POC friends tell them "I hate white people," which is probably not the easiest thing to hear when most of your family is white.  And I certainly don't want my kids to make comments about white people around their white friends.  None of it seems likely to encourage more racial empathy or cooperation IMO.

I hope they're good enough friends to delve into that comment and ask why and also to share more of themselves and why that was upsetting.

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It is interesting, to me, to contemplate the idea that knowledge is power. It's one of those things people say in an offhand way, a truism/cliche with some nuggets of truth. I think the authors of these bans/restrictions (not just in this matter but others too) believe they're preserving power for themselves and their progeny but, in fact, they may be accelerating its loss. Corporate America isn't going to stop firing people like the Central Park Karen, for ex. And Corporate America isn't about to start tolerating ignorance as an excuse when someone steps out and says/does something 'offensive' and uninformed in college. The center of power isn't really in the schools or the leg., that's not where the money is. It feels like, to me, we're setting a lot of kids up to fail.

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2 hours ago, SKL said:

A bit off topic but ....

This week my kids (age 14) and I finished the audiobook of Of Mice and Men.  There is a scene where a white woman referred to as a "tart" threatens to accuse a black man of touching her, in response to his threat to report something true about her.  And he backed down, and there was somewhat vague language as to why.  I started explaining the why to my kids, and they interrupted with "we know, like what happened in To Kill a Mockingbird."  The latter is a book my kids and I have read twice and discussed at length.

My kids are not geniuses.  I think teens can digest a serious, well-written book (or a good movie or other effective media) about "someone else, somewhere else, at a different time" and come out with a better understanding of the world.  This can be done without personalizing any of it, and without sweeping statements or stereotypes.

My kids have good friends of all races, and I'd like it to stay that way.  I do have concerns that a direct analysis of racial differences in the classroom will strain relationships too much.  Already my kids have had POC friends tell them "I hate white people," which is probably not the easiest thing to hear when most of your family is white.  And I certainly don't want my kids to make comments about white people around their white friends.  None of it seems likely to encourage more racial empathy or cooperation IMO.

I taught most everything through literature. 

I believe well-written literature encourages empathy. And that 'well-written' can encompass writers of all races, classics, contemporary fiction, adult literature, children's literature and some YA. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I always wind up feeling that these highly dogmatic approaches to difficult issues are putting the cart before the horse. It's like with my personal preoccupation, math education -- they are teaching the outcomes of some deep mental models BEFORE the mental models and it does no good. 

The real point of all these things is the ability to see things from other people's perspectives (including people with a VASTLY different cultural experience) and to be able to be humble and thoughtful about the ways that you did not make your own luck. But if you skip the "golden rule" step and just jump to dogma about which group is more wronged, you get total nonsense. 

I've been in Facebook groups that were explicitly organized via a hierarchy about who was the biggest victim. People abused that hierarchy like people have abused ALL hierarchies (birth, class, education, race) since time immemorial. And people were JUST as intolerant of questioning as anyone else who subscribes to an unshakeable view about right and wrong. 

We don't want that. We oughtn't want that. 

And with all that being said, if you think about white privilege AFTER you've done some actual deep thinking about what different people's experiences look like, you'll see there's something there. But that doesn't mean it's a safe thing or good idea to present it first.

You know, the whole Peggy Mackintosh suitcase model of white privilege is just...let's just say, it's very informed by socio-economic status.

And I think that no matter how much smart people on WTM talk about how language changes and we ought to get with the program, most people not on WTM or in other advantaged spaces continue to see privilege as referring to the material. I think it's a word that doesn't do what it sets out to do in many spaces. 

I think it's educated sneering not to make a pragmatic adjustment to how the concept is communicated more broadly. 

That FB group sounds insane. I do not know how people can imagine the world is organised into such static and quantifiable ways. I hope such ways of thinking do not find their way into DE in schools. 

Interestingly, I read a paper last night which made it clear we already know what does and doesn't work in workplace DE. I can't see a reason not to begin from that point when introducing DE in the classroom. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Interestingly, I read a paper last night which made it clear we already know what does and doesn't work in workplace DE. I can't see a reason not to begin from that point when introducing DE in the classroom. 

I’m sure I should know, but what is DE in this context? (I keep thinking Dual Enrollment, but that’s clearly not what you’re referring to.)

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23 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Interestingly, I read a paper last night which made it clear we already know what does and doesn't work in workplace DE. I can't see a reason not to begin from that point when introducing DE in the classroom. 

 

 

Agree with this too! Sadly, bans mean that what works cannot be implemented as well as what DOESN'T work. And, at the end of the day, I don't think employers are sitting around waiting for people to get up to speed. The trend is to outsource education and training to the employee. Businesses aren't taking that upon themselves.

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2 hours ago, KSera said:

Funny enough, we could get into a whole different cancel culture (I hate that term) discussion about JK Rowling. The groups most likely to prevent their kids from reading Harry Potter now are on the opposite end of the spectrum from the ones that were preventing it when my older kids were younger, for totally different reasons. But we probably don't want to go there 😬.

Someone I know posted on FB asking about ways to get rid of her Harry Potter books in such a way that no one else could read them (she thought donating them wasn't sufficient since other people could read them still if she did that).  I thought, "well, there's always matches but WTAF is going on in your mind that this seems like a valuable use of your time?"

I recognize the illiberal tendencies in that vein that I am seeing from the various antics I saw coming from the right for years.  

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9 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Someone I know posted on FB asking about ways to get rid of her Harry Potter books in such a way that no one else could read them (she thought donating them wasn't sufficient since other people could read them still if she did that).  I thought, "well, there's always matches but WTAF is going on in your mind that this seems like a valuable use of your time?"

I recognize the illiberal tendencies in that vein that I am seeing from the various antics I saw coming from the right for years.  

Fortunately, it doesn’t carry the weight of law and many of my Chinese students are big fans, buying it right up.

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5 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Someone I know posted on FB asking about ways to get rid of her Harry Potter books in such a way that no one else could read them (she thought donating them wasn't sufficient since other people could read them still if she did that).  I thought, "well, there's always matches but WTAF is going on in your mind that this seems like a valuable use of your time?"

I recognize the illiberal tendencies in that vein that I am seeing from the various antics I saw coming from the right for years.  

Moral panics are a human trait..

Having said that, I'm not sure how anyone can consider as righteous the destruction of books and not stop to consider if they've perhaps lost their way! 

Has book burning ever been an indication of being on the right side of history?!

You should have told her to hand sharpie out the entire text of all the  books. 

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Another thing that’s rattling around in my head is the extent to which wealthy mainland Chinese parents are working to help their kids become more familiar with other people groups, their stories and triggers and their social expectations, while Americans are working hard to bury these things. They really want to know that it’s not a good idea to call someone fat. I see a big group of little sponges everyday. It colors my view of how the US is responding to globalization and multiculturalism.

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50 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I taught most everything through literature. 

I believe well-written literature encourages empathy. And that 'well-written' can encompass writers of all races, classics, contemporary fiction, adult literature, children's literature and some YA. 

 

 

This reminds me of an author interview locally.

Barbara Kingsolver was on the SF NPR station, being interviewed about one of her then recently published books, and I called in and got through!  I don’t remember what I asked her, but her answer included the assertion that whether novelists set out to be political or not, they always create empathy in readers, and usually for a variety of different kinds of people than the readers themselves, and that creating empathy is a political act.  Loved that!

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16 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Fortunately, it doesn’t carry the weight of law and many of my Chinese students are big fans, buying it right up.

Oh for sure it's not the weight of law but I just can't imagine being all that worried about *who else might read a book I have decided to get rid of*.  😛

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7 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

This reminds me of an author interview locally.

Barbara Kingsolver was on the SF NPR station, being interviewed about one of her then recently published books, and I called in and got through!  I don’t remember what I asked her, but her answer included the assertion that whether novelists set out to be political or not, they always create empathy in readers, and usually for a variety of different kinds of people than the readers themselves, and that creating empathy is a political act.  Loved that!

That's so exciting you got to ask your question!

Yes, she's right. One of the reasons I'd be wary about replacing literature with more didactic texts in the classroom.

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25 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Oh for sure it's not the weight of law but I just can't imagine being all that worried about *who else might read a book I have decided to get rid of*.  😛

There are books that I feel that way about.  I don’t need to ask what to do with them, though, since it’s fairly obvious. 

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31 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Another thing that’s rattling around in my head is the extent to which wealthy mainland Chinese parents are working to help their kids become more familiar with other people groups, their stories and triggers and their social expectations, while Americans are working hard to bury these things. They really want to know that it’s not a good idea to call someone fat. I see a big group of little sponges everyday. It colors my view of how the US is responding to globalization and multiculturalism.

It’s another way the “anti-China” side of things is actually doing exactly what China would want us to do.

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1 minute ago, HeartString said:

It’s another way the “anti-China” side of things is actually doing exactly what China would want us to do.

Indeed. My DH feels the same way and he is faaaarrr to the right of me.

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20 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

That's so exciting you got to ask your question!

Yes, she's right. One of the reasons I'd be wary about replacing literature with more didactic texts in the classroom.

Except that what is set up in these bills isn’t replacing literature that provides experience with empathy with more didactic texts. It’s refusing to allow discussion of race (and likely other issues that might make Kids feel bad) at all. Which means that even if the class is allowed to read “Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry”, it can’t actually be discussed in any detail. That is a major, major step backwards. And if you look at the lists of most often banned and challenged books in schools, a lot are exactly the type of good, well written texts that could build empathy and context. 
 

https://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/top10

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57 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Someone I know posted on FB asking about ways to get rid of her Harry Potter books in such a way that no one else could read them (she thought donating them wasn't sufficient since other people could read them still if she did that).  I thought, "well, there's always matches but WTAF is going on in your mind that this seems like a valuable use of your time?"

I recognize the illiberal tendencies in that vein that I am seeing from the various antics I saw coming from the right for years.  

I see my kids, who absolutely loved Harry Potter and read their copies until they fell apart now saying Rowling is bad but they can’t remember why. I see that kind of thing. They read it all over social media and are dedicated to whatever idea is predominant in their group, but they don’t even know what that is based on. They just know without a doubt it’s true. I see some of the same dynamic with the people telling me it’s lucky I’m homeschooling so my kids aren’t exposed to all this “race stuff” in schools, but I don’t think most of them even know what that is or what is actually going on here on the ground in the schools.

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4 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Except that what is set up in these bills isn’t replacing literature that provides experience with empathy with more didactic texts. It’s refusing to allow discussion of race (and likely other issues that might make Kids feel bad) at all. Which means that even if the class is allowed to read “Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry”, it can’t actually be discussed in any detail. That is a major, major step backwards. And if you look at the lists of most often banned and challenged books in schools, a lot are exactly the type of good, well written texts that could build empathy and context. 
 

https://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/top10

Yeah, I know. I'm not a supporter of the bans. 

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9 minutes ago, KSera said:

I see my kids, who absolutely loved Harry Potter and read their copies until they fell apart now saying Rowling is bad but they can’t remember why. I see that kind of thing. They read it all over social media and are dedicated to whatever idea is predominant in their group, but they don’t even know what that is based on. They just know without a doubt it’s true. I see some of the same dynamic with the people telling me it’s lucky I’m homeschooling so my kids aren’t exposed to all this “race stuff” in schools, but I don’t think most of them even know what that is or what is actually going on here on the ground in the schools.

THIS. They’re all for bans and we’re busily teaching them that it’s ok. That’s the right and proper way to do things. Why, in the name of all that is holy, would you want to DISCOURAGE this generation from becoming more familiar with other people’s stories, from interrogating their ideas and each other’s around these issues, from pushing through rather than canceling things they don’t like, and from getting first hand exposure to the democratic process. Adults are teaching them that might makes right and hysteria wins the day.

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2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I see my kids, who absolutely loved Harry Potter and read their copies until they fell apart now saying Rowling is bad but they can’t remember why. I see that kind of thing. They read it all over social media and are dedicated to whatever idea is predominant in their group, but they don’t even know what that is based on. They just know without a doubt it’s true. I see some of the same dynamic with the people telling me it’s lucky I’m homeschooling so my kids aren’t exposed to all this “race stuff” in schools, but I don’t think most of them even know what that is or what is actually going on here on the ground in the schools.

I've definitely seen that.  My nieces were saying that and my brother made them back it up and examine what they were saying.  My older niece's main argument was "she's just stupid" and my brother was like, "try again".  

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It's really not Harry Potter's job to teach your kids critical thinking, nor to teach them to read for facts (JKR engages in transphobic speech and promotes transphobia) instead of feeling (she's just sorta bad and stupid).

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Hold on, ensuring every high school graduate can read, write and do basic math is about equity, accessibility and inclusion? I thought it was called doing their job? This is what I meant upthread about lowering standards for equity of outcome vs equal opportunity. 

Oregon students shouldn’t have to prove they can write or do math to get a diploma, lawmakers decide

 

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46 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I've definitely seen that.  My nieces were saying that and my brother made them back it up and examine what they were saying.  My older niece's main argument was "she's just stupid" and my brother was like, "try again".  

This part. I find myself doing this all.the.time, even with ideas that I agree with b/c I know the person sharing the idea has no back up whatsoever. I feel very much like Sisyphus tho because all of the external information they're getting is that they are the ones being canceled. Their votes and ideas are the ones being discouraged/discounted. The American right is actively pouring fuel on their fire by giving them ammunition too. This wave of bans is not going unnoticed. I don't know what the landscape looks like in other English-speaking countries. I just know that my teens and their friends want no parts of what the PTB are doing right now and, if they have the chance, they will 'fix' it all--from climate policy, gun policy, and policing, to taxes and speech. They are not at all wedded to 'traditions' or 'norms' because they've witnessed them being shredded. We don't even live in a super partisan or lefty area. This just seems to be the zeitgeist of this generation of Americans. So, we can keep going down this road, slapping labels on music and movies, banning discussions of race and 'discomfort' but I really, really, don't think it's gonna end as the proponents of these measures expect.

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Just now, Plum said:

Hold on, ensuring every high school graduate can read, write and do basic math is about equity, accessibility and inclusion? I thought it was called doing their job? This is what I meant upthread about lowering standards for equity of outcome vs equal opportunity. 

Oregon students shouldn’t have to prove they can write or do math to get a diploma, lawmakers decide

 

Way to change the subject.

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